Diving into Dthrow - Everything you need to know about tech chasing

[Tennet]

yay thread about dthrow, *begins to read*

 

[IxxI]

....
I wish I could help, but I just don't have enough time in the day at all. T_T

We should concentrate on getting the match-up thread done too guys...

 

[SuSa]

This thread's basically done.

Also back to matchups. =p

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

We can only discuss match-ups so much. It requires a lot of people to post, not just a couple people for a single MU thread.

Don't forget stage discussion >(

 

[Tub]

Doesn't regrabbing during a roll require you to move before your opponent?

 

[SuSa]

Doesn't regrabbing during a roll require you to move before your opponent?

You can boost grab in some cases, and no it doesn't.

You can tech chase every character (save for possibly Snake) using only reaction and a little bit of luck (towards-away attacks..)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

True or false-if you drop a nade behind you, then grab and dthrow before the nade explodes, you can shda forwards with imperviousness? I imagine that either they eat your dair or they take the grenade hit...

 

[SuSa]

And if they do a getup attack?

Also it depends on the timing. Rolls don't take a full 3 seconds, dthrow takes 1 second (IIRC) which gives them 2 seconds to roll + shield.

Rolling is less then a second IIRC and shielding is like 1/6th a second.

So I'd say FALSE.

 

[Morningstar]

Would you double check the results for Marth? I've gotten a buffer jab on Marth out of a dthrow before.

 

[SuSa]

There is still a lot of testing going on, and chances are the Marth didn't do anything immediatly.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Did you do this on uneven terrain like on yoshi story at the very edges. buffered jab will work there.

I've have done it over and over again on even terrain (FD) and it still stands that SNake cannot jab marth lying down. The jab doesn't even connect when it isn't buffered. I was spamming Jabs and not hitting even walking right into him doing it.

 

[Morningstar]

I think it was Lylat Cruise where I connected with it. If not, I guess Marth can't be jabbed out of dthrow because I've tried to do it since then and I've had no luck lately. If I come up with anything, I'll take note of the level and it's surroundings.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think it was Lylat Cruise where I connected with it. If not, I guess Marth can't be jabbed out of dthrow because I've tried to do it since then and I've had no luck lately. If I come up with anything, I'll take note of the level and it's surroundings.

That observation does propose an interesting idea. Perhaps yoshi story (brawl) probably has the most uneven terrain through out the entire stage, so that might be an excellent choice for a CP. If the character you are battling against will get Dthrow > buffer jab on uneven terrain and has an away-towards hit then they would be fairly easy to tech chase.

G&W is a good example of that. Buffered jab will prevent people from staying still, and you can react to the get-up attack if the buffered jab misses. And if they roll you can react to that.

 

[SuSa]

The problem with that is G&W, MK, and Marth (maybe others) can up-B to avoid any Jab combos.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

They are still easy to tech chase in a way. If the person you are fighting knows this you can mess them up by not jabbing and going start for the Ftilt xP But that is tech chasing for you, we can make it as easy as possible, but nothing is guranteed... yet! I am still hopeful someone can be 100% tech chased to death.

 

[Morningstar]

Okay, so I was playing a Marth on PK Stadium 1 and I was able to successfully jab after a dthrow. It happened on the grassy terrain with the wooden platforms, if you know what I'm talking about. If this doesn't work for you, I don't know. I guess try the other terrains because I definitely jabbed a Marth out of a dthrow on PK Stadium 1. Haha.

 

[SuSa]

Should I update an index for the beggining as well?

So it'd be like:

Rank
char
char
char
char
char

next rank
char
char


That way it makes finding a character a bit easier..

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Okay, so I was playing a Marth on PK Stadium 1 and I was able to successfully jab after a dthrow. It happened on the grassy terrain with the wooden platforms, if you know what I'm talking about. If this doesn't work for you, I don't know. I guess try the other terrains because I definitely jabbed a Marth out of a dthrow on PK Stadium 1. Haha.

I really thank you for pointing out all of this. I thought it was weird that it might not have been the terrain and I tried this out a bit more and found that when marth tries a forward roll, he gets hit by the buffered jab.

So now that we have found a person that actually gets hit by a jab in their roll, I wonder who else will get hit out of there roll.

Even though I'm half way done with the grenade percents for No DI that can wait a bit, tries out dthrow stuff with the buffered jab all over again. Dthrow > Jab keeps getting better.

Edit: xD This is too good, Dthrow > buffered ftilt hits marth during his forward roll xD

 

[SuSa]

Is the Marth buffering the forward roll?

If so, that completely shuts down his best escape.... lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Is the Marth buffering the forward roll?

If so, that completely shuts down his best escape.... lol

Yes that is. If marth buffers the forward roll than he will get hit by ftilt/jab if we buffer the ftilt/jab.

So pretty much I would say that if we buffer a jab and he doesn't move and it doesn't hit him, follow up with a ftilt, if it does hit follow up with ftilt anyway. If he appears to roll and the jab doesn't hit that means he will be going behind you, regrab. Only thing left is get-up attack.

So read marth with either a Dthrow > buffered jab and react; or a Dthrow > shield.

Sadly I've 8 people left to test and not one has been hit by the jab in their forward roll ;_; I guess marth should feel special now xD

 

[SuSa]

I can always frame-test the Marth roll along with all other buffer jabs to hit.

I can also say:

Jab combo sucks against:
G&W - up-b
Wolf - down-b
MK - up-b
Marth - up-B

So I'd ftilt, not jab..

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I was only saying the jab because it ends quickly enough that one can punish any rolls behind snake. Ftilt takes way to long to end. Beside, I wasn't talking about the AAA combo. I was thinking more along the lines of a Jab > ftilt combo instead.

But yeah, ftilt at least gets the job done. Could you also test invicilbility frames for marth on his options and also see if speed changes any when below 100% vs above 100%.

If the speed changes that means we should go back and do all the testing above 100% as well as below it. If it doesn't change that means we have more proof that snake's dthrows aren't effected by percents.

Snake: Dthrow > Buffered Jab vs. Opponent: buffered forward roll
Works only against Marth.
Against all else, jab doens't work.

I'll be testing ftilt against everyone now. Jab hits high I think people avoid getting hit by it. Ftilt is 4 frame attack, and hits lower. It is the best chance of hitting someone during the forward roll.

 

[SuSa]

I'll test invincibility frames on rolls under and over 100% on Marth later today.

I was also able to get the buffered ftilt on Marth... but they have to be buffering a roll :/ so IMO it's not worth the risk

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'll test invincibility frames on rolls under and over 100% on Marth later today.

I was also able to get the buffered ftilt on Marth... but they have to be buffering a roll :/ so IMO it's not worth the risk

Remember that Ftilt will also hit them should they decide to stay still, so you'll know that if they don't get hit they will have to buffer a roll or get-up attack.

If they forward roll than you get a free ftilt hit.

If they roll behind, I think the ftilt will have ended enough that you won't be punished for it. The only thing left that stops you is the get-up attack. So the ftilt has it's uses.

I think it would make a great mindgame finisher at higher percents against someone who always rolls forward. If the person acts like they should, they would be pushing forward on the control stick still and get hit by the ftilt with both hits and not react fast enough to DI. THis means that they basically DI the wrong way, letting to the worst trajectory possible with ftilt, almost horizontal. So earlier KO with ftilt.

 

[SuSa]

Point take on that part...

Will update OP soon

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In-depth Grab Game(Still in testing/WIP)

This post is designed to give a more detailed strategy to each character by taking all the information gathered on Snake's grab game and applying it to try to create and easier and guranteed grab game.

1) Wario - Wario is one of the characters in the cast that is greatly effected by a Dthrow > buffered Jab. The buffered jab will hit wario if he desides to stay still after being dthrow'n and when hit he can be regrabed and Dthrow'n again (you'll have to inch forward a bit to regrab). If wario wants to avoid that, he can by rolling forward, rolling behind snake, stand up or perform a get-up attack.

If wario decides to do one of those 4 things, the jab will miss hitting wario, but it will end quickly enough that you have enough time to react to whatever it is that Wario does guranteed. If he rolls in front of you, you can perform a boost grab. If he rolls behind you, you can perform a dash grab. If wario stands up simply regrab him. If he decides to perform a get-up attack, shield the hit and regrab.

You can repeat this process till wario is within KO range of various attacks. After the next regrab you get, pummel once and wait for wario to escape into the air release and then hit Wario with an Utilt or Uair thus KOing him. If you want the extra damage, pummel inbetween grabs to also refresh your Dthrow and other moves. A good chart to look at is that 50%+ = guranteed 1 pummel, 100%+ = 2 guranteed pummels, 150%+ = 3 guranteed pummels etc.

*Testing still needed to be done to see if wario can escape a jab > regrab. If that is the case, then Jab > Ftilt is a good method for damage if you do not want to attempt the regrab if the pummel hits.

2) King Dedede - DDD is another character that can be tech chased easily by applying the Dthrow > Buffered Jab. So with DDD always do a Dthrow > Buffered Jab and react accordingly. If the jab hits, than ftilt or move forward slightly and grab (DDD can escape after the jab hits if you try to regrab). If the jab misses, react to what the only options they have left: stand, attack, roll forward, roll behind.
-Stand = regrab
-Attack = Shield > grab
-Roll forward = boost grab
-Roll Behind = turn > boost grab

3) Bowser - Bowser is like Wario and DDD, but harder. He fits under the same sitations as DDD and Wario that Dthrow > Buffered Jab will ruin his options, but it's a bit harder to read him. His animation for a roll is pretty similar to either his forward roll or a backwards roll. His get-up attack hits sooner than DDD and Wario, but you can still shield in time to avoid the get-up attack and regrab (the shielding the get-up attack has to be pretty much frame perfect and will result in a powershield everytime or else you'll be hit). The backwards roll you just have to turn and grab. Forward roll will have to be a boost grab. Standing up is the same, just grab.

Bowser is another person that we have a release combo on. We can air release him into a dash attack or regrab by doing a boost grab. My personal preference would to always air release CG him to the edge to make it easier to tech chase him with Dthrow. The forward roll he has would be reducded in length essecntially making it easier to tech chase him should he decide to go that way. Plus, pummels between air releases means stale move negation is reduced. But avoid doing this with platforms as they mess up the air release, mostly a strategy on FD.

4) Ness - Ness is uneffected by dthrow to jab. It does not limit any options for him. So for ness you will need to resort to the typical methods of Tech Chasing. Keep track of what is on the field.

Snake does have ground release combos against Ness. So if you ever feel like applying this instead of techchasing is a good option. Plus, this is a more guranteed method to kill with. To get the ground release simply mash pummels and they will get ground release eventually (to your benefit the more pummels you get). After the ground release you'll be faced with 10 frames to do whatever you feel like, make the most of it. If you are in KO range an Utilt would be best. If you are going for damage try to either regrab or Ftilt. How far Ness breaks away from ness depends upon how ness DIs. If he DIs towards you than he will break right next to you. If he doesn't than ness will still break away close enough that you can regrab him by budging an inch forward and regrab in those 10 frames. Grab comes out in 8 frames you pretty much move forward for only like 2 frames at most than grab. If your good enough at the regrab thing I would say to just always ground release him and regrab to KO percents, but it's incredibly long and annoying to do this.

5) Lucas - Same thing with ness about tech chasing. Snake has ground releases against him as well because of the 10 frames you can do something after he breaks out. THe difference is that Lucas can break away farther than ness can. So apply the same to what you would with ness, but if are trying for the ground release it's a bit different. Lucas has 3 distances he can break further away from Snake. The furthest distance is the only one you cannot regrab or Utilt Lucas because he is too far away (dtilt/ftilt still reach far enough to hurt lucas. How to induce the farthest distance seems random though.

6) Squirtle - Squirtle can also be easy to tech chase. First off his rolls are relatively short compared to others and SLOW. Best option with squirtle is to move back a bit after the Dthrow. From there you can safely see what squirtle will do. If he stands up rush back and grab. If he tries a get-up attack you'll be out of range of the first hit and can shield the 2nd hit and go back and regrab. If he rolls in either direction you can rush in for the grab. Boost Pivot Grabbing might be the preferred option with the backwards roll, and boost grab for the forward roll.

7) Yoshi - Yoshi is like exactly like squirtle except that his rolls go a bit further away than squirtles making him a bit harder to tech chase as you have to react faster.

8) Link - Link I would recommend standing still and reacting to what he does. His get-up attack is fairly slow compared to others making it easy to shield into the regrab. If he stands up simply grab, and boost grab on the forward roll (you pretty much have to do this to get link). On the backwards roll since you are not prohibited by the frames of the backwards roll, you can use pivotgrabbing to grab link (great method when near the edge to limit the length of the forward roll). If you notice he is staying still don't hesitate to jab or ftilt him.

You could try to use the Dthrow > Buffered jab routine, but that only has the possibility to limit 4/5 options he has. The forward roll will allow him to escape everytime if you buffer a jab. The jab ends too late for you to run up and grab link on the forward roll because by that time he could have already spot dodged or rolled.

9) Meta Knight - Meta Knight lol It's nice to know that MK could be a person who we could easily tech chase by what we can do to prep for a tech chase, but everything he has as an option is really fast (just like everything else he has <_<). The Dthrow > Buffered jab I feel is the best method of tech chasing MK. Our jab will end fast enough that we can rush to grab MK when he rolls behind up, stands up, lies still or performs a get-up attack (you have to pretty much hit shield by the time that jab ends or you'll get hit for sure). If MK performs a forward roll, I am not positive that the jab will end and you to still have enough time to rush forward to grab MK before he regains control to spot-dodge or roll. But being able to react to 4/5 possibilities is still pretty good.

Needs to be more throughly looked at.

 

[napZzz]

How does this buffered jab work from the dthrow? Asplain, I'm confused.

 

[SuSa]

dthrow, and hold A....

 

[napZzz]

dthrow, and hold A....

no, I got that part. I mean, what is it supposed to do? Just jab them back up? Does it catch rolls?

 

[SuSa]

If you read, it hits them if they do nothing.

You can Jab > Ftilt, Jabx3, or Jab > Grab.

It works just like every other time you jab.

 

[napZzz]

If you read, it hits them if they do nothing.

You can Jab > Ftilt, Jabx3, or Jab > Grab.

It works just like every other time you jab.

thats all? Do you have time to shield or run if you buffer one jab and stop there?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

thats all? Do you have time to shield or run if you buffer one jab and stop there?

It really depends upon the person you are tech chasing. But yes, you do have time to shield. You need to be quick about it, but you have to be quick anytime you tech chase someone xD

 

[SuSa]

So uhm, apparently everyone we can jab - we can generally grab as well.

I was 0-deathing my friends Kirby (he's a good player, goes even with me most matches and wins a good 1/3rd of them). By simply buffering a Jab. Then reacting. If you don't see them rolling, shield.

We can jab > and still cover Kirby's rolls. If the jab hits, we can grab. (They can DI behind you, but just turn around and grab)

I'm interested if other characters are like this...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

SuSa... Your confusing me with what your trying to get across.

 

[SuSa]

Buffering the jab really, really ***** Kirby.

However if you buffer a jab on D3, he can DI down and grab you before you grab him (talk about BS) so I don't suggest doing this on D3.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Buffering the jab really, really ***** Kirby.

However if you buffer a jab on D3, he can DI down and grab you before you grab him (talk about BS) so I don't suggest doing this on D3.

Ahh. That makes more sense

Buffer Jab on DDD is good if the Deddle Dumb Dee doesn't know what to do

 

[Steeler]

this is the worst thread in the world

**** you snake

 

[SuSa]

this is the worst thread in the world

**** you snake

LOL. I love you too <3

(For people who wonder why he randomly popped in to say that. I showed the PT mains this thread. XD)

 

[SuSa]

So besides myself, who actually uses this information? :x

I plan to do frame data soon on everyone using PSA. I'll update everyone for speed of getup attacks (first hitbox) ^_^

/been a month and I don't want this dissapearing.

 

[Tennet]

I still have to take the time to study it, but I will when I do.