Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[subterrestrial]

Yuna and Princess Garnet aren’t really the main protagonists but the story in each game does revolve around both of them. FFIX and FFX were my two favorite games in the series and Garnet is my favorite character from IX. I think they could each make for great Smash characters utilizing white mage abilities as well as summoning.

a healer/summoner mage would be cool

 

[Froggy]

what game are you tlaking about? wolverine never has had healing in any mvc game or xmen v street fighter game.

healing as a concept for characters doesnt work well. it either has no impact and isnt used or its OP and everyone hates it. fihgting games are near 40 years old now and while character arctypes cotninue to be reinvented and pushed (shoutouts to the new strive Brawling mixup character(?)) this specefic ability is left alone for a reason.

if a game has healing generally it is a team game with recoverable health and a game mechanic.

in terms of characters left it could be DLC: pokemon, master chief, spyro, crash, all come to mind. I was hung up on dante so i hadnt really considered others for this final spot.

Um Ness and Hero both having healing abilities in this game. I'm not big on other fighters but just from the ones I've played know Yoshimitsu in soul caliber 2 (and I'm guessing Tekken) had a healing ability, Elena in Ultra Street Fighter 4 had a healing ability, Nakoruru in Capcom vs Snk(and I'm guessing Samurai Showdown) also had a healing ability. This idea that healing isn't in fighting games is demonstrably false, don't portray your own biases as representative of the fighting game industry.

Looking at the fighter pass 2 characters I realized we have every archtype. Zoner, Heavy, FGC char, grappler, sword char, speedy char, lightweight, low mobility-great frame data, high mobility-poor frame data,, strong but not heavy. The only thing missing is a true All rounder. I'm really think Crash is the most likely addition at this point.

 

[FreeFox]

Um Ness and Hero both having healing abilities in this game. I'm not big on other fighters but just from the ones I've played know Yoshimitsu in soul caliber 2 (and I'm guessing Tekken) had a healing ability, Elena in Ultra Street Fighter 4 had a healing ability, Nakoruru in Capcom vs Snk(and I'm guessing Samurai Showdown) also had a healing ability. This idea that healing isn't in fighting games is demonstrably false, don't portray your own biases as representative of the fighting game industry.

Looking at the fighter pass 2 characters I realized we have every archtype. Zoner, Heavy, FGC char, grappler, sword char, speedy char, lightweight, low mobility-great frame data, high mobility-poor frame data,, strong but not heavy. The only thing missing is a true All rounder. I'm really think Crash is the most likely addition at this point.

Which one is which? Just of curiosity.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Wolverine has a healing move?

In many fighting games (not all), he is constantly healing at a slow rate. It's not a move, just a constant effect.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Looking at the fighter pass 2 characters I realized we have every archtype

No we don't.

We're missing a ton.

Grappler
Trapper
Install

Just to name a few.

You said we have a grappler, but who the heck is the grappler in FP2?

Min Min? She's not a grappler. She's a hard zoner.

 

[Froggy]

A character who focuses on healing is.... not a great idea.

I mean.... Look at Elena in SFIV.

People hate her because of her one super.

Dude. The reason people hated Elena was for her far reaching, high damaging safe pokes and instant overheard high damaging burst option. The healing was absolutely secondary to those issues, as they hated her with the second super as well

Which one is which? Just of curiosity.

Zoner(MinMin), Heavy, FGC char, grappler(Kazuyax3), sword char(lol), speedy char(mythra), lightweight(sephiroth), low mobility-great frame data(Steve), high mobility-poor frame data(Sephiroth), strong but not heavy(Pyra).

No we don't.

We're missing a ton.

Grappler
Trapper
Install

Just to name a few.

You said we have a grappler, but who the heck is the grappler in FP2?

Min Min? She's not a grappler. She's a hard zoner.

Kazuya is the grappler. Between hells gate, Down B, and rage drive thats absolutely his arch type. Its not quite as obvious as I suppose Inceneror though. I would argue that Steve is a trapper at least to the same extent Pacman is who is frequently called that archetype. No idea what an installer is.

Sorry for double post

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Dude. The reason people hated Elena was for her far reaching, high damaging safe pokes and instant overheard burst option. The healing was absolutely secondary to those issues, as they hated her with the second super as well

Depends on who you ask.

Some people say the healing was what put her over the edge. Some people say it was her pokes. Some say it was her burst option.

I just personally heard more people complain about the healing.

grappler(Kazuyax3)

I'm sorry, what?

NVM you explained.

Kazuya is the grappler. Between hells gate, Down B, and rage drive thats absolutely his arch type. Its not quite as obvious as I suppose Inceneror though. I would argue that Steve is a trapper at least to the same extent Pacman is who is frequently called that archetype. No idea what an installer is.

Sorry for double post

I don't think that's a fair assessment of a grappler archetype. Kazuya's gameplan isn't centered on grabs like say Zangief or King are.

 

[Froggy]

Depends on who you ask.

Some people say the healing was what put her over the edge. Some people say it was her pokes. Some say it was her burst option.

I just personally heard more people complain about the healing.


I'm sorry, what?

If Elena did not have the healing and had her other options she'd still be a problem. People complained about her winning with the other super too. Times 3 meaning Heavy, FGC & Grappler.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

No we don't.

We're missing a ton.

Grappler
Trapper
Install

Just to name a few.

You said we have a grappler, but who the heck is the grappler in FP2?

Min Min? She's not a grappler. She's a hard zoner.

Since the term grappler is kind of a misnomer when it comes to the slow, but powerful design in Super Smash Bros., I would say Kazuya fits. I don't think any of the characters fit the balanced/all-rounder archetype, but the other three major archetypes are here.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Elena did not have the healing and had her other options she'd still be a problem. People complained about her winning with the other super too

I'm not denying that.

I'm just saying I personally saw more people complain about the healing.

Point being we both agree Elena was a problem.

Times 3 meaning Heavy, FGC & Grappler.

I get that, and I understand characters can be mixes of archetypes.

I guess I'll just repeat myself.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of a grappler archetype. Kazuya's gameplan isn't centered on grabs like say Zangief or King are.

I just don't think having a command grab makes a character a grappler. Otherwise we'd be calling Mewtwo one. Being a grappler is all about your main gameplan being grabs. And yeah, I don't really think Incineroar is a true grappler for the same reasons. Although he's closer than most.

DK is probably the closest Smash will ever get to a true grappler. Cargo Throw goes a long way.

Since the term grappler is kind of a misnomer when it comes to the slow, but powerful design in Super Smash Bros., I would say Kazuya fits. I don't think any of the characters fit the balanced/all-rounder archetype, but the other three major archetypes are here.

Heavy =/= Grappler

 

[Froggy]

I get that, and I understand characters can be mixes of archetypes.

I guess I'll just repeat myself.


I just don't think having a command grab makes a character a grappler. Otherwise we'd be calling Mewtwo one. Being a grappler is all about your main gameplan being grabs. And yeah, I don't really think Incineroar is a true grappler for the same reasons. Although he's closer than most.

DK is probably the closest Smash will ever get to a true grappler. Cargo Throw goes a long way.


Heavy =/= Grappler

You mentioned earlier that Kazuya isn't a grappler because his game plan doesn't revolve around grabbing. When Kazuya has rage drive his game plan revolves around grabbing, and you're watching a different game if you think otherwise. Being heavy has nothing to do with it, Kazuya has two(not one) command crabs including essentially a third grab where he has an entire unique mechanic that revolves around it. You'd have to try pretty hard to not think of him as a grappler.

I think Melee ice climbers is h probably the most grapplerish character we've had.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Smash treats Kazuya as a grappler. He is slow moving, but is super deadly when up close

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In many fighting games (not all), he is constantly healing at a slow rate. It's not a move, just a constant effect.

Which ones? I don't actually know what fighting games he's been in other than the versus series, and it's not a thing there.

Heavy =/= Grappler

It does though. Grapplers are characterized by their high durability and damage with a weak neutral as their drawback, and that's exactly what the heavy archetype is. Grapplers may also be known for massive command grabs, but it's not a requirement for them to have one.

 

[Froggy]

Since the term grappler is kind of a misnomer when it comes to the slow, but powerful design in Super Smash Bros., I would say Kazuya fits. I don't think any of the characters fit the balanced/all-rounder archetype, but the other three major archetypes are here.

I also forgot to mention some other arch types, resource management and centered around sweet spot type chars. It really does seem like they were trying to hit every arch type with this pass. I have a hard time not seeing a all rounder/balanced as next. I'm not sure who else(plausibly) really comes to mind for that archtype other than Crash however.

Edit: There is Rayman I suppose, but between the two my money is on Crash. Although I think Rayman could have a cooler move set(although could end up making him less of a balanced type lol)

Which ones? I don't actually know what fighting games he's been in other than the versus series, and it's not a thing there.


It does though. Grapplers are characterized by their high durability and damage with a weak neutral as their drawback, and that's exactly what the heavy archetype is. Grapplers may also be known for massive command grabs, but it's not a requirement for them to have one.

I'm not following this.. Are you saying a char could be a grappler with no command grabs at all? If so then I think your definition is in conflict with how the FGC as a whole thinks of grapplers.

 

[osby]

Kazuya can't be a grappler because he's a shoto.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

When Kazuya has rage drive his game plan revolves around grabbing, and you're watching a different game if you think otherwise.

Yeah but that's only for a small time.

The majority of Kazuya's stock is not revolving around his rage art, much like how the majority of Little Mac's and Terry's playstyle aren't revolving around KO Punch and the Go Supers.

It's not a constant looping state like Limit or Arsene. It's a one a stock deal.

Being heavy has nothing to do with it,

Never implied it.

, Kazuya has two(not one) command crabs including essentially a third grab where he has an entire unique mechanic that revolves around it.

Yes, but Kazuya isn't going to be going for them the whole time. It's not his primary gameplan.

It's not the existence of the command grabs that make a grappler.

I think Melee ice climbers is h probably the most grapplerish character we've had.

Yes. I agree.

Smash treats Kazuya as a grappler. He is slow moving, but is super deadly when up close

By that definition, Ganondorf is a grappler.

That's not what being a grappler means.

It does though. Grapplers are characterized by their high durability and damage with a weak neutral as their drawback, and that's exactly what the heavy archetype is. Grapplers may also be known for massive command grabs, but it's not a requirement for them to have one.

Those are traits grapplers CAN have, but they are not what defines them.

You're describing a Big Body. Which is a different archetype.

The FGG describes grappler as " A character whose primary offensive tools are throws and command throws. "

The throws are what define the archetype.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm not following this.. Are you saying a char could be a grappler with no command grabs at all? If so then I think your definition is in conflict with how the FGC as a whole thinks of grapplers.

I mean it's fairly common, but not all of them have a Potemkin Buster equivalent.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean it's fairly common, but not all of them have a Potemkin Buster equivalent.

Name one grappler without a command grab.

 

[pupNapoleon]

what game are you tlaking about? wolverine never has had healing in any mvc game or xmen v street fighter game.

healing as a concept for characters doesnt work well. it either has no impact and isnt used or its OP and everyone hates it. fihgting games are near 40 years old now and while character arctypes cotninue to be reinvented and pushed (shoutouts to the new strive Brawling mixup character(?)) this specefic ability is left alone for a reason.

if a game has healing generally it is a team game with recoverable health and a game mechanic.

in terms of characters left it could be DLC: pokemon, master chief, spyro, crash, all come to mind. I was hung up on dante so i hadnt really considered others for this final spot.

The ones that immediately come to mind are the first I played- which were the XMen Mutant Academy Fighting Games.
I may have a minute to research if there are others- but it worked just fine in those games.
And it seems like balancing is the only issue. Even from a theoretical standpoint- if they are unbeatable, they are healing too quickly. If they are not able to win, they are healing too slowly.
I tend to find, more with Smash than anything, lack of imagination stifles what is believed could be probable. Not just in moveset, but in fanrules, false theories, and general- just very blunt, one dimensional thinking. (Not an accusation of a person, just saying it definitely comes across as closed minded. Even if it never had been done, it doesn't mean it couldn't. Smash wouldn't exist if Sakurai didn't say, "Do fighting games have to have metered health?")

Regardless, I asked what character could even fit this role (main character or prominent character) from a game.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Those are traits grapplers CAN have, but they are not what defines them.

You're describing a Big Body. Which is a different archetype.

The FGG describes grappler as " A character whose primary offensive tools are throws and command throws. "

The throws are what define the archetype.

Alright, sure, but then grapplers are a subarchetype of "Big Body". Grapplers that don't fall into this category aren't standard grapplers.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I know Im late to this topic but does it really matter who is and isnt a grappler in a party game?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The ones that immediately come to mind are the first I played- which were the XMen Mutant Academy Fighting Games.

Huh.

You're right. I had no idea this game existed.

And sure enough, Wolverine does passively heal.

Alright, sure, but then grapplers are a subarchetype of "Big Body". Grapplers that don't fall into this category aren't standard grapplers.

What if I told you... Grapplers don't have to be big. They can be any size.

Rainbow Mika is a grappler for sure. But she's not a huge character.

To bring up Pokken (Good night sweet prince), Pikachu Libre is a grappler, but is one of the smallest characters in the game.

Being big and slow is not a requirement for a grappler.

I know Im late to this topic but does it really matter who is and isnt a grappler in a party game?

Do any of our conversations matter?

 

[FreeFox]

Name one grappler without a command grab.

Well, going by what I have read so far, DK and Ice Climbers apparently.

I know Im late to this topic but does it really matter who is and isnt a grappler in a party game?

I am not even sure how easy or hard would it be to define a grappler in smash. With command grabs on top of my head we have, we have Bowser, Diddy Kong, Incineroar, Ganondorf, Kazuya, Ridley. I am not sure which ones of these wouldnt be considered grapplers, at least partially.

 

[osby]

Alright, sure, but then grapplers are a subarchetype of "Big Body". Grapplers that don't fall into this category aren't standard grapplers.

Blood Drain stops

Satsuki will remember that.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Xmen fighting games wherein Wolverine Heals:

• Xmen Mutant Academy 1 and 2
• Xmen Next Dimension
• Marvel Contest of Champions

And I'm not sure why Xmen Legends and other Adventure games of the like wouldn't count- they still balance the characters.
Swamp Sensei Yeah, the passive healing seems to workout fine.


---all of this is to say, I still don't know a video game character that fits this mold (and isn't secondary or tertiary).

In theory, a Pokemon could use Sunny Day, which would temporarily allow it to heal bit by bit...with some liberties.
Maybe other Earth based characters could do so?
I dunno...fairies?
And this is just one example of how healing could work. The stats just have to be balanced around off setting the value of the healing.

We had a whole mecha conversation- but I'd rather have a Magical Girl.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well, going by what I have read so far, DK and Ice Climbers apparently.

DK does have one actually.

Cargo throw is a command throw. Just because its not a special move, doesn't mean it isn't one.

Ice Climbers are one due to unintended game design. The technically work but...

They really shouldn't.

 

[DarthEnderX]

All hail the mighty dark souls estus, the only reason why people didn't quit this game in undead asylum:
View attachment 324574

Actually, yeah, solid pick. Healing is a core mechanic of those games.

The majority of Kazuya's stock is not revolving around his rage art, much like how the majority of Little Mac's and Terry's playstyle aren't revolving around KO Punch and the Go Supers.

Says you. My Terry playstyle is all Power Geysers!

I know Im late to this topic but does it really matter who is and isnt a grappler in a party game?

Arguing terminology is our reason for existing!!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Says you. My Terry playstyle is all Power Geysers!

Power Geyser: "So what do you do when you're not at 100+%?

Darth: "Wait for you to come back."

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What if I told you... Grapplers don't have to be big. They can be any size.

I never tried to make the claim that they had to be physically large, just durable. The only thing that would have implied that are the typical visual design conventions, and the term "big body", which I had in quotes for a reason.

The ones that immediately come to mind are the first I played- which were the XMen Mutant Academy Fighting Games.

This doesn't seem to be a thing here either. He recovers red health, but so does everyone else, and he does not recover green health.

A concession can be made that the universal recoverable health mechanic does work even in 1v1s, but I'd hesitate to say that's the same as it is with character specific mechanics.

EDIT: To be more clear, I'm not in the camp that thinks viable healing is unusable, but I do recognize that it has severe design challenges.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Power Geyser: "So what do you do when you're not at 100+%?

Darth: "Wait for you to come back."

Yes!

 

[Froggy]

Yeah but that's only for a small time.

The majority of Kazuya's stock is not revolving around his rage art, much like how the majority of Little Mac's and Terry's playstyle aren't revolving around KO Punch and the Go Supers.

It's not a constant looping state like Limit or Arsene. It's a one a stock deal.


Never implied it.


Yes, but Kazuya isn't going to be going for them the whole time. It's not his primary gameplan.

It's not the existence of the command grabs that make a grappler.

Kazuya certainly relies on his command grabs more than Robin and Mewtwo do for example. Also Little Mac and Terry(less so little mac) game plan does revolve around thier KO Punch/GO to the extent that it makes them comeback characters. Similarly, that in addition to how integral, even if not dependent, his command(s) are to his gameplan is enough to qualify him as a grappler. I admit its probably not a binary term.

Also did Sakurai use the term grappler in Kazuya's presentation? I can't quite remember.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Kazuya certainly relies on his command grabs more than Robin and Mewtwo do for example. Also Little Mac and Terry(less so little mac) game plan does revolve around thier KO Punch/GO to the extent that it makes them comeback characters. That in addition to integral, even if not dependent, his command(s) are to his gameplan is enough to qualify him as a grappler. I admit its probably not a binary term.

I guess we're not going to agree on this.

Ah well. It's semantics really.

At least this wasn't as brain numbing as the shoto conversation, eh? I actually enjoyed the conversation.

Also did Sakurai use the term grappler in Kazuya's presentation? I can't quite remember.

I don't think he ever used the term, no.

 

[Slime Scholar]

The issue with a character that heals as one of their primary abilities isn’t strictly balance. It just isn’t a very interesting concept, and it has the potential to be more frustrating to fight against than fun to fight with. No amount of debate about whether or not it’s too great of an advantage is going to change that. There’s a reason it’s so rare in fighting games to begin with, and why there are such limitations on it in Smash.

 

[Ivander]

Blood Drain stops





Satsuki will remember that.

Isn't it sad, Sacchin?

 

[pupNapoleon]

The issue with a character that heals as one of their primary abilities isn’t strictly balance. It just isn’t a very interesting concept, and it has the potential to be more frustrating to fight against than fun to fight with. No amount of debate about whether or not it’s too great of an advantage is going to change that. There’s a reason it’s so rare in fighting games to begin with, and why there are such limitations on it in Smash.

Eh- interesting is really a personal stance.
I doubt I'd be the only one to find it interesting.
On the idea of a passive healer- you wouldn't be able to let off of them. They would require constant attention. (Perhaps they have passive healing for every several seconds they are not hit, and they try to maintain distance and evasion when trying to heal).

I just think there are so many different ways for it to work, that saying it flatly doesn't work is just... well, as I already said, unimaginative.
As far as 'not an interesting concept,' I mean... have you seen Fire Emblem?

I think above all, though- I think a concept that is difficult to create, is even more exciting; I want to see what Sakurai's creativity can do.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

The only game I know where healing is worthwhile but not OP is the Shugoki and Shaman in For Honor. And that game is so far removed from traditional Fighting Games it doesn’t really prove much.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

---all of this is to say, I still don't know a video game character that fits this mold (and isn't secondary or tertiary).

This is probably because the healer is a support role within team dynamics, and it's very rare for a protagonist to take this role within their story, and when they're on their own having healing as their primary ability is problematic since it usually means that they become hard to hurt in a way that matters natively; there's no stakes since they can just heal.

Also did Sakurai use the term grappler in Kazuya's presentation? I can't quite remember.

I don't see why he'd use any of the archetypal terms in presentations like that since it would count as jargon in this context.

The issue with a character that heals as one of their primary abilities isn’t strictly balance. It just isn’t a very interesting concept, and it has the potential to be more frustrating to fight against than fun to fight with. No amount of debate about whether or not it’s too great of an advantage is going to change that. There’s a reason it’s so rare in fighting games to begin with, and why there are such limitations on it in Smash.

I think it can be made interesting, but it really can't be a "the move heals and that's all it does" move. There has to be some sort of interesting counterplay to it.

On the idea of a passive healer- you wouldn't be able to let off of them. They would require constant attention. (Perhaps they have passive healing for every several seconds they are not hit, and they try to maintain distance and evasion when trying to heal).

I would flip it: Give the passive healing to a rushdown character, and maybe also have them start taking damage instead of healing or something if they aren't hitting their opponent.

Giving passive healing to a zoner wouldn't actually change how they play, and would just get their opponents even more tilted at the character because the healing makes the zoning seem way more unfair.

As far as 'not an interesting concept,' I mean... have you seen Fire Emblem?

Have you? It's requires a lot of strategy to play and most of the time the plots are comple-oh. Oh you meant the characters we got...alright.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

As far as 'not an interesting concept,' I mean... have you seen Fire Emblem?

Yeah its great.

Owain is my spirit animal.

 

[Shroob]

Hot take, or maybe not.


Healing mechanics don't belong in fighting games, unless they're HEAVILY balanced, like Hero's.


In a competitive 1 on 1 fight, there's nothing more "Feelsbadman" than watching your opponent recover from their mistakes by just healing it off, making all the investment into reads you pulled off earlier pointless.


If you're going to do healing, it has to have a caveat to it so it doesn't become frustrating and unfun to deal with.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Everyone drop what you're doing and look at this!

It's like Demitri's Midnight Bliss, but 1000x better. I want this in Super Smash Bros. so freaking bad now!