DMG's Wario Guide Stuff Blah Stuff

[PhantomX]

Marth is harder than Luigi, this is fact. If he spaces you, you are hardpressed to do anything. His fair > all your aerials including dair. You can do NOTHING to him offstage if he's competent. This is another character where most of the damage you do is from the ground... which sucks when he has as big a range (relative to Wario) as he does. Marth also has very good ground speed, so if you're not careful he can easily sneak a grab on you, and that's a free grab release > upsmash for an early kill right there.

 

[Ace55]

Marth is harder than Luigi, this is fact. If he spaces you, you are hardpressed to do anything. His fair > all your aerials including dair. You can do NOTHING to him offstage if he's competent. This is another character where most of the damage you do is from the ground... which sucks when he has as big a range (relative to Wario) as he does. Marth also has very good ground speed, so if you're not careful he can easily sneak a grab on you, and that's a free grab release > upsmash for an early kill right there.

Like I said it's probably me beeing experienced in the match up and the Marth's I've been facing either beeing sub-par or unexperienced in the matchup (I only saw one other Wario at the tourney). But for me it felt easier, SHAD then a reverse bite was a nice way of getting in range (at worse trading hits) and getting them on the defensive.

But I still think Luigi is worse than 45-55.

 

[PhantomX]

I wish it were that simple, but a Marth has enough time to fair then nair before you can do anything out of your airdodge if they spaced correctly. You land behind, and you get hit by the second hit of the nair. The best way I've found to do damage is to try to land a grab, or hit them on their way down after a second jump w/ your bike. Throw in some DACs, and fsmashes, and try to land a finisher w/ the fart. You can also dair their nairs if you go down the middle, but it's not as easy as one would think.

Luigi is hard once he props you up in the air, but he can be shut down by biting and spacing (unlike marth), since his range isn't that great. His best kill move is also fsmash, which, as a wario, you should never get hit by (I played BigLou, and it never landed on me). If you try to space a Marth player, odds are you'll get tippered :\

 

[Ace55]

I wish it were that simple, but a Marth has enough time to fair then nair before you can do anything out of your airdodge if they spaced correctly.

Again the 'good' Marth who was spacing his fairs at me probably didn't know the matchup at all. Thankfully for me Warios seem to be very rare around here.

 

[White Pikmin]

lol om nom nom!

 

[JhMS]

Bumping this thread because of a lack of discussion.
Also,great job at Hobo 11!Congratulationa .

 

[DMG]

Bumping this thread because of a lack of discussion.
Also,great job at Hobo 11!Congratulationa .

Ty, I had a lot of fun.

Any particular characters you wanna go over maybe? I got some time to answer questions.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Any particular characters you wanna go over maybe? I got some time to answer questions.

YES!

I went even with Meep's Snake at my tourney yesterday, but his Marth ***** me. I need a lot of help with this match-up.

Also, congrats on the 4th place at HOBO11! You are now even more so my hero! \(^0^)/

 

[DMG]

Well Marth is a hard fight, but it's not too bad really. Something I noticed with Roy R is that he tipped me a lot, I got lucky on some of those Fsmashes he didn't tip. He also used Upb smartly, his uses for it were a lot differently that what I envisioned.

Only thing I can tell you is to dodge half of the fight and the rest of the fight you just keep yourself from being too predictable. I mean I know that sounds simpler than actually doing it, but that's pretty much all I did.

 

[PhantomX]

Lol, that IS what you have to do, b/c it IS highly advantageous to Marth. When i played OmegaXF... he was like "you dodge a lot >_>"

Basically wait for your openings, kill time for the waft.

 

[Timbers]

When they say dodge, they don't mean abuse spotdodges (I hope! >.>)

Spotdodging gets you ***** by dancing blades.

 

[DMG]

When they say dodge, they don't mean abuse spotdodges (I hope! >.>)

Spotdodging gets you ***** by dancing blades.

Yeah I was referring to air dodges and just evasive DI in the air when you aren't air dodging. Although spot dodging stuff other than Dancing Blade worked fine.

 

[DMG]

Sorry for double post, but I updated some of the matchups with instant/ground breaks making a difference in the matchups. Shiek would no longer have an advantage, Snake would not get a free kill, Yoshi would lose the infinite, and the same for any character that has an infinite on Wario or grab release to kill move.

Now honestly, I don't have the breaking timing down, and I still don't even know what button/s I have to press, but if we can master that like we should then things would swing a bit in our favor, even if it's just by a bit.

 

[Mmac]

Well if you don't know what to do or even know how it works, then don't you think that it's too early to alter the matchup's for that?

 

[DMG]

Well if you don't know what to do or even know how it works, then don't you think that it's too early to alter the matchup's for that?

If something can be done, eventually people will find a way to do it consistently at higher levels of play. Even if I can't do it 100%, it still means that a lot of negative aspects in Wario's matchups would be negated or significantly smaller.

 

[Mmac]

If something can be done, eventually people will find a way to do it consistently at higher levels of play. Even if I can't do it 100%, it still means that a lot of negative aspects in Wario's matchups would be negated or significantly smaller.

Yeah, but you don't even know how to do it yet. All you know that it exists. You don't know how to make it work, nor do you know how it works.

I'm not denying that it doesn't exist or it wont help, I'm just saying it's too early. Nobody knows how to implement it into regular play yet.

 

[DMG]

Yeah, but you don't even know how to do it yet. All you know that it exists. You don't know how to make it work, nor do you know how it works.

I'm not denying that it doesn't exist or it wont help, I'm just saying it's too early. Nobody knows how to implement it into regular play yet.

Well I just have a feeling that it will soon be able to be integrated into play. I guess I just think that we should already assume that it can be integrated into play, and that it affects the matchup to date, but we can wait. Sounds reasonable, I thought you were trying to downplay the break or something lol.

Edit: Also, reverted some of the matchups back to normal or marked them as needing more time before we can make a decision (Yoshi and Shiek in Particular).

 

[PhantomX]

The ground break does not, and will not work with Yoshi, because of the mechanics of his grab.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why does Wario have a bigger disadvantage against Marth, than against MK? (Don't tell me cuz Reflex won vs M2K)

 

[PhantomX]

No, Marth is heavier, can kill quicker (if they space tippers, they kill us as early as 80), and is just as hard if not harder to find approach options against. You also cannot approach him offstage, as is the case with MK.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marths weight is a non issue, since MKs recovery lets him survive longer regardless. He also has a smaller size aka better shield and as far as I', concerned shield pressure is a big deal for Wario.

MK is much harder to approach. Why should Marth be harder? MK has the same range but is much more aggresice, with his non-existent lags. Throw in the fact, that MK has way more priority and it should be pretty obvious, that MK isn't easier to approach than Marth. Approaching MK offstage sounds suicidish to me...

Seriously, no character has an easier time against MK, than against Marth ...

 

[Timbers]

Pretty sure Marth has grab releases on Wario, something MK doesn't have lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh yeah...I forgot about that. Never mind then...(most Marth players say it's overrated though...)

 

[PhantomX]

It's overrated if they can't get it off. Having a reliable tipper upsmash is pretty potent, especially since one of Wario's assets is his survivability.

Also, there's a huge difference between being able to kill someone with a waft at 60 vs say, 90. Also, Marth can pressure Wario better than MK can because Marth has better horizontal aerial speed (and a very fast ground speed as well, though not as fast as MK), so it's harder for us to space him while trying to find openings. I said neither of them is approachable offstage, and weight DOES play a huge factor as most moves in this game don't send people below stage level... so the longer you avoid the blast zone, the more you sruvive. We can punish MKs nado w/ dairs, can eat him out of his up B, and can superarmor though predictable dsmash kill attempt.

And for the record, a smaller shield isn't better. If tthey're competent at angling their shields, bigger is always better.

 

[DMG]

Hey Phantom, the ground break does work against Yoshi, I mean I experienced it in person a few times against a pretty good Yoshi player I played before the tourney. It was close to instant, and I had more than enough time to evade another grab while I was grounded. It also had nothing to do with weird momentum like dashing or falling off the stage or any of those breaks.

 

[PhantomX]

That's odd... how do you ground break out of Yoshi's MOUTH? XD

I've never had this happen, so maybe next time you should get videos >: (

 

[DMG]

That's odd... how do you ground break out of Yoshi's MOUTH? XD

I've never had this happen, so maybe next time you should get videos >: (

I might have the vids of that, not sure. I played him on a TV that had a recording device going on but IDK if it was recording those matches or if they turned it off after the smash fest tourney.

 

[PhantomX]

Would be interesting to see... I've never seen any character ground break out of Yoshi's grab. Also, I replied to your PM.


P.S. You look like a 22 year old at least (and a hippy, haha).

 

[PKNintendo]

I might have the vids of that, not sure. I played him on a TV that had a recording device going on but IDK if it was recording those matches or if they turned it off after the smash fest tourney.

10charas nevermind.

 

[Mmac]

I would be lying if I said I never encountered it. I have seen a ground break from Yoshi a few times in the past. However until you figure out how to implement it into regular use, Yoshi still has a clear 65-70 Advantage, especially since he now has an even easier infinite on him.


You guys should discuss how the Infinite you have will effect the Matchup, especially against those like Dedede

 

[DMG]

Assuming the Infinite works for sure (I saw the vid, Idk if it would work on a human spotdodger) then Dedede becomes 60 : 40 at least, Snake becomes 55 : 45 probably since he does have the option to pull a grenade, DK becomes 60 : 40 at least, probably higher than Dedede's new rating though, and the rest already had a disadvantage anyways so I guess we would move them up 5 points or so.

 

[Timbers]

Phantom was showing me the video last night. I remember seeing a Wario several months ago do the "infinite" (I don't know if it was damage dependent or not, but..) on a DK before, but ended it after 5 or 6 grabs. I told Phantom about it and he said it was really easy and common knowledge to do to DK, which makes me wonder why it took you guys at least 4 months to try this on other characters if it really does work? I'd think that if it worked on one character you'd try to prove or disprove it ASAP for the entire cast, which seemed to not work if I've never seen a Wario do this outside of DK. I don't know, it seems really farfetched. Snake and Link I saw shields go up on both, granted you might be able to grab them before they can get their spotdodge off?

Also were these controlled by other players or just CPUs. Phantom told me it was against a human opponent, but I saw incidents where the Wario missed a grab and the Snake did a utilt instead of trying to get away and Wolf using a uB.

I'd love to see you guys look more into this, but I'm still questioning it heavily that it took this long for you guys to go into depth with this if it really does work.

 

[DMG]

Phantom was showing me the video last night. I remember seeing a Wario several months ago do the "infinite" (I don't know if it was damage dependent or not, but..) on a DK before, but ended it after 5 or 6 grabs. I told Phantom about it and he said it was really easy and common knowledge to do to DK, which makes me wonder why it took you guys at least 4 months to try this on other characters if it really does work? I'd think that if it worked on one character you'd try to prove or disprove it ASAP for the entire cast, which seemed to not work if I've never seen a Wario do this outside of DK. I don't know, it seems really farfetched. Snake and Link I saw shields go up on both, granted you might be able to grab them before they can get their spotdodge off?

Also were these controlled by other players or just CPUs. Phantom told me it was against a human opponent, but I saw incidents where the Wario missed a grab and the Snake did a utilt instead of trying to get away and Wolf using a uB.

I'd love to see you guys look more into this, but I'm still questioning it heavily that it took this long for you guys to go into depth with this if it really does work.

The thing is, everyone tested the turn around grabs on every character. What we did not test extensively was the dash grabs because either:

1. We tried dashgrabbing but we were too slow/didn't buffer right and we just assumed this held true for every character or

2. People knew how to buffer it right, but got different results as to whether the opponent could spotdodge or get away.


Because there was no unified effort, no one had the same results, or even the same tests.

 

[Timbers]

well more power to you guys if you actually get this to work.

Will easily make Wario top 3. Infinites on Snake and DDD? ****'s crazy.

 

[Ace55]

Your sig puts us all to shame dmg.

 

[DMG]

Your sig puts us all to shame dmg.

I just have it as a reminder to strive for gold, not as a pride emblem.

 

[Mmac]

Also were these controlled by other players or just CPUs. Phantom told me it was against a human opponent, but I saw incidents where the Wario missed a grab and the Snake did a utilt instead of trying to get away and Wolf using a uB.

Phantom is a liar >_> I clearly stated that it was with computers (Plus... you can kinda see it in the video anyways). I did test this with real people offline before on the majority of the list, but everyone was bugging me to get a video online. I said "I don't have anyone to test it with me for awhile, so unless you want to see me do it on Lvl 9 CPU's, I can't make a video". They told me to do it anyways >_>

The CPU's about the majority of the time try to roll away as soon as they react from the Dthrow, but sometimes they try to do a counterattack. What they were trying to do in the process of the infinite I don't really know.

 

[PhantomX]

Oh, I didn't want it on CPUs, that's not really good proof. Now I'm not too excited, lol.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wario: = OM NOM NOM
It's Wario vs Wario, the most epic match ever (other than Falcon Dittos and Ganon Dittos). Don't be a bas**** and grab release your opponent, have some integrity. Feel free to grab release him though if he decides to break our moral code. Also feel free to fart in his face IRL and call his mother a fat b**

Epic. ****ing epic post.

 

[Timbers]

Phantom is a liar >_> I clearly stated that it was with computers (Plus... you can kinda see it in the video anyways). I did test this with real people offline before on the majority of the list, but everyone was bugging me to get a video online. I said "I don't have anyone to test it with me for awhile, so unless you want to see me do it on Lvl 9 CPU's, I can't make a video". They told me to do it anyways >_>

The CPU's about the majority of the time try to roll away as soon as they react from the Dthrow, but sometimes they try to do a counterattack. What they were trying to do in the process of the infinite I don't really know.

It was easy to see that they were CPUs, however I was also lead to believe that a player was taking over the CPU slot (I don't know what I was thinking it was like 1am go away) and the random utilts and uBs were just alternatives of getting out of the grab...lol..