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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

isthattim?

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Iso appreciation society headquarters
hey doc gods,
i recently noticed a 0% gimp for sheik. what i do is backthrow off the edge, turn, throw a pill to stop their second jump and then wd edgeguard the up-b.
can someone try it on someone with good di, cos i've been doin it to my mate and it works everytime.
i hope it works against actual good players lol
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
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Feb 10, 2008
Messages
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Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
At 0 percent? I think they'd be over 0 already if you throw.
 

Gea

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,236
Location
Houston, Texas
Plus you gotta grab Sheik at 0% with your back to the ledge. Good luck? They could also DI up enough and jump over what Doc can do I'm pretty sure.

Fthrow might be better... but once again, when the hell are you grabbing Sheik at 0% near the edge?
 

isthattim?

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
651
Location
Iso appreciation society headquarters
i had a feeling that good players would **** this up with di, i suppose it worked so good cos they were trying downwards di to stop cg, the thing is when i threw her off the edge she just went straight down so there was no time to try to attack the pill without falling to death
thanks for the input, i was just hoping for a good way to get rid of sheik




i guess wishes dont come true :(
 

Gea

Smash Master
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Jun 16, 2005
Messages
4,236
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Houston, Texas
I'd rather fight Sheik than a REALLY good Peach.

**** that *****.

<.< This coming from a Brawl Peach main.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
BRoomer
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Messages
6,140
Location
Warner Robins, Georgia
i had a feeling that good players would **** this up with di, i suppose it worked so good cos they were trying downwards di to stop cg, the thing is when i threw her off the edge she just went straight down so there was no time to try to attack the pill without falling to death
thanks for the input, i was just hoping for a good way to get rid of sheik

i guess wishes dont come true :(
ya know, that's something that's got to go on my "list of things to look into"

I swear DIing throws up and down doesnt work. That just sounds too dumb to work.

But yeah, your friends shouldnt be diing "down", they should be diing away from you. Away being wherever in the **** they want to go. >.>
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
It depends on the direction of the throw. Directional influence should be perpendicular to the normal launch angle. Also, if you can't recognize the bthrow and DI in time, there's no help for you.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Warner Robins, Georgia
It depends on the direction of the throw. Directional influence should be perpendicular to the normal launch angle. Also, if you can't recognize the bthrow and DI in time, there's no help for you.
actually, some lighter characters dont get as much of a luxury because (surprise, i only learned about this like, last week or so) the speed of a throw animation is dependent on character weight.

Meaning, jiggs has less time to see a backthrow coming than bowser.
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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Mass
no...?
I think it would only be considered ccing if you were actually, you know, crouching.
 

#HBC | Mac

Nobody loves me
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I still don't think so.
I think DIing down is an aspect of crouch canceling but that they are not interchangeable.

edit: Magus *****
Being in a crouching state reduces the launch speed and with it the stun time and point where it makes you fall down.

What people usually refer to by "crouch canceling", is crouching to have reduced launch power while also ASDIing down, so when they'd normally get popped into the air they instead immediately land due to the ASDI downwards and then the landing animation cancels the stun. You can still get the same effect without being able to crouch and just ASDIing down, but you don't get the reduced knockback from the crouch so it will stop working at lower damages.

You can't cancel the stun on the needles like I mentioned earlier because you can't cause a landing to have that cancel out the stun, but you can still get the reduced launch power from being in a crouching state (obviously you can't though if you are unable to actually crouch at that time).

It doesn't cancel the stun, but it will be reduced since the knockback will be smaller. However, hitting someone who's crouching with more than one needle will have the needles after the first still hit while they're stunned and will break the crouching state and they will be stunned normally after that.

Same thing with Fox's d-air. You can't crouch cancel it because it doesn't have an upwards trajectory and you can't cause a landing off the hit since you never leave the ground, but you can still get reduced stun on the first hit from crouching. The 2nd hit will still connect during that reduced stun time from the 1st though when you're then stunned and no longer crouching, and then the following hits will all act normally.


For the needle->tilt, while the tilt can connect during the needle's stun and they can't actually be crouching when it hits to get the reduced knockback part, they can still ASDI 'cancel' the tilt if the distance they get sent upwards on the 1st frame isn't greater than the distance the ASDI moves them downwards.

If the tilt doesn't send them upwards enough on the first frame to overpower the ASDI down, but the knockback is still strong enough to put them in a tumble they'll just instantly fall over and hit the ground. They'll also be able to instantly tech it when that happens if they time it right.


Needle grab is guaranteed on Jiggs if it's done correctly. Bowser is stunned from a needle for like 10-11 frames even at 0%. If the last needle hits just before landing they don't have time to sidestep or roll before getting grabbed.
 

Gea

Smash Master
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Houston, Texas
You can't DI throws straight up or down, but by holding down and away you're ensuring the lowest possible trajectory while getting away from someone.

And remember, smash DI doesn't exist on throws.

Also Dogy while yeah, lighter characters have less time to DI you also have less time to think about your next move or react to the throw. Just sayin'.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Also Dogy while yeah, lighter characters have less time to DI you also have less time to think about your next move or react to the throw. Just sayin'.
wat. What next move. My post was made directly in response to


It depends on the direction of the throw. Directional influence should be perpendicular to the normal launch angle. Also, if you can't recognize the bthrow and DI in time, there's no help for you.

this post.

And "react to your next move". YOU'RE BACK THROWING THEM, YOU CAN GO GET A SANDWICH BEFORE YOU MAKE ANOTHER MOVE, CAUSE IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE BACKTHROWING THEM FEET. >.>

__

On a complete sidenote, as corny as I thought my sig originally was, it's kinda growing on me already.

*Holds up hand* THE SIGN OF VICTORY!
 

Gea

Smash Master
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But throw speed applies to ALL throws, not just back. Downthrow, upthrow. All throws.

Bthrow isn't even Doc's most lethal throw. Dthrow probably is. Dthrow -> fair should get you more kills than bthrow ever does.

Get with it Dogy.
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
Few things.

You can Smash DI Jigglypuff's fthrow, but I think that's the only one.

Also, why wouldn't you just DI in anticipation of the dthrow and then switch if they bthrow?
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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But throw speed applies to ALL throws, not just back. Downthrow, upthrow. All throws.

Bthrow isn't even Doc's most lethal throw. Dthrow probably is. Dthrow -> fair should get you more kills than bthrow ever does.

Get with it Dogy.
we were CLEARLY talking about backthrow!

And yeah, d.throw is where you're going to get alot of your kills, it kinda helps to realize when you reach the % when you cant throw -> f.air anymore.
 

Gea

Smash Master
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Honestly even when I mess around with Pichu or Jiggs the animations are slow enough that I can DI any throw unless its an instant uthrow from Fox, and that's only sometimes I mess that up. The bigger problem to be aware of against everyone is which directions you cannot DI, because some throws have dead zones where if you try to DI a certain way you go nowhere.

Regardless, it should be a safe assumption that anyone worth their salt has the reaction times to DI throws at least to the point where they aren't going to get killed by bthrow easily. I mean, think about when you get hit. That's alot less time to prepare to DI, but we do it all the time.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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no, they're not. Hell, nobody is really going to die to a backthrow unless

1) you're on a small stage and they dont DI

or

2) They die off the top. <<< which is what normally happens.


 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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ok, ima lil too lazy to leave some full feedback right now, i'll hit that later.

I will say

1) stop rolling in so **** much
2) stop rolling away from pressure so **** much
3) learn to down angle f.tilt .... so **** much.

>.>
 

otg

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Ok a few things 'Fyasko' lol.

You should jab him more, especially if your going to aerial right at him. Jabs lead to wins, so don't be afraid to throw it out when you're close. .....Approach with Nair less. Yeah definitely less rolling. It doesn't seem like you're going for grabs at all either, that's where the jabs come in.

I'd say just work on becoming more fluent/faster (SHBAWL's, wavelanding in general, edge-cancelling) and try getting in more jabs/grabs.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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cause when you get hit with a doc f.tilt, it's like game over but you get a chance to put 50 cents in the machine and continue.

When you get caped, it's pretty much game over, go back to the beginning.
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
cause when you get hit with a doc f.tilt, it's like game over but you get a chance to put 50 cents in the machine and continue.

When you get caped, it's pretty much game over, go back to the beginning.

unless they recover correctly, in which case the cape doesn't kill them. If they head straight up down, or illusion (they can manage to recover from the cape in some cases after illusion).

It's also like putting in 50 cents, only to realize you still won't be able to win. So you put in another 50, and another, and another, until you give up, and are like 3.50 down =P
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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if they go straight up, cape them for the damage, and they f.tilt them back out.

.. or just tilt/smash them back out as them come up.

__

and **** blue mary.

Athena and her entire outfit collection ftw. Followed closely by Mai.
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
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2,409
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Boston MA
if they go straight up, cape them for the damage, and they f.tilt them back out.

.. or just tilt/smash them back out as them come up.

__

and **** blue mary.

Athena and her entire outfit collection ftw. Followed closely by Mai.
I agree about using tilts instead--that was my point.

And yeah, athena is cooler.. I'm going to be switching this to Ciel from MB as soon as I reinstall my tablet driver though. I've kept this because I've wanted to see if anyone noticed that I didn't even spell viers right. So far no one has >_>
 
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