Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Smooth Criminal]

The falco was pretty bad, but that doesn't take away from Mr. Lemon's ability to upB out of shield.

Agreed on both counts.

That was the first time I've seen Up-B cancelled used effectively.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Violence]

You should test that out on different DIs... I was messing around with Doc on a bunch of scrubs and I also did an up B cancel on a Fox, but I couldn't link it into fair.

Maybe that's just me though.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

how much faster does it come out than up smash oos?

 

[Violence]

6 Frames, according to your Frame thread.

Frame 3 is up B, and frame 9 is usmash.

 

[Frisbie]

that could be useful for getting out of fox shield pressure, with the high priority and quickness that up b has

 

[Shroomed]

Teach me how to upB out of shield. I haven't even been able to do it once.

 

[leffen]

up B oos is frame 4 (+ invincibile/greathitbox)

just as fast as shine oos.

You can cancel this technique too (its not even hard, read up on how to do it and you'll have it consistent within a week or two) which makes it an INCREDIBLE getoffme move

you can also use this against sheiks fair->jab (wins everytime, esp if the fair is somewhat staled and she doesn't do it super late which noone ever does), inbetween spacies shine-grab and MANY MANY more

 

[Strong Badam]

Spoiler

Quick crash course. *Points to keyboard* with respect to player 1 side, 5 = neutral. I'll say left and right instead of down and back

So
1 = downleft,
2 = down,
3 = downright,
4 = left,
5 = neutral,
6 = right,
7 = upleft,
8 = up,
9 = upright

looks like this
7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3
___

Ok, most people say up+b cancelling is a 2 input command, as in, you do up+b in one direction (7 (upleft) for example), and on frame four, you have to press 3(downright).

Up+a direction, down + opposite direction.

*
What got lost in translation over time is the fact that you cant ever pass through neutral while doing this (or it's recommended that you dont)

The actual input for this is

1) up+one direction (left)
2) down+THE SAME DIRECTION**(left)
3) down+the opposite direction.

** The same direction being the key part. If you go through the middle (which is what you do if you go in a straight line), you run the risk of going the opposite direction first too early, and you just up+bing the other direction instead of up+b cancelling.

It's actually talked about in alot of old, dead threads (i read one of super doodle man's posts specifically), but it just got lost in translation over time.

___

TL;DR

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3 < that's your analog stick

You guys are doing this

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3< THIS **** IS ASKING FOR FAILURE.

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3 < DO THIS ONE INSTEAD.

I'M GOIN TO SLEEP MIKE G.

You can also go:

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

from Dogysamich, don't have the original post.

 

[leffen]

you can reverse it and still cancel it right? I read Mr. Lemon said that its only useful against ppl who land in front of you

 

[Strong Badam]

I have no idea

 

[Blistering Speed]

You're right Papa Loosh. I feel like when I go Marth to Doc my spacing gets off. Guess I'll just stay Doc exclusively again. Except in teams generally.

Go Marth exclusively. There'll be an initial slump, but you'll end up achieving much more than if you'd attempted grinded through with Doc, only to find the rest of the top echelon learning and exploiting Doc's flaws.

 

[Violence]

Teach me how to upB out of shield. I haven't even been able to do it once.

Usmash out of shield. Now press B instead of A. Tadahhh

Now you just have to throw in a half circle after your b input.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

you can reverse it and still cancel it right? I read Mr. Lemon said that its only useful against ppl who land in front of you

Yea I feel like it works best when ppl land in front of you. Obviously you don't have to use it only when that happens. I can incorporate it into battle but it is really hard to find times to use it with it only doing like 4% or 5% and it being shorter then a jab. I've used it mid combos like after a d.air or n.air. I feel like the easiest way to follow up after it is with a f.air here is an example:

@0:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJbc7Qi52Fg

Also, another way to follow up after an up+b cancel is with an empty hop then tech chase them.

 

[Eclectic Echo]

Anyone else think Doc is really good? Like should be higher up on the tier list? Not that that matters. It's just he seems to deal the damage (literally and not literally percent). When I use him I feel like I'm a train that can't be stopped, unless a guy in a cape comes along with his sword and you just can't touch him cuz of his range

 

[BigWenz]

Anyone else think Doc is really good? Like should be higher up on the tier list? Not that that matters. It's just he seems to deal the damage (literally and not literally percent). When I use him I feel like I'm a train that can't be stopped, unless a guy in a cape comes along with his sword and you just can't touch him cuz of his range

falco (good falcos that is, cause bad falcos that let you have FD is like xmas coming early, right Mr. Lemon? lol) is much much worse than marth imo. Marth is just more annoying to fight, its a much slower match up but defiantely not that bad.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

falco (good falcos that is, cause bad falcos that let you have FD is like xmas coming early, right Mr. Lemon? lol) is much much worse than marth imo. Marth is just more annoying to fight, its a much slower match up but defiantely not that bad.

Lol yea I agree with BigWenz. I do have trouble with falcos but if you can see that they are starting to set up a combo and you can prevent it (and you can avoid their lasers) you are golden.

Doc is an amazing character that should be higher up on the tier list, but the only way for that to happen is if we make it happen. I feel as though doc is still not completely figured out 100% yet. Up+B cancels are the next step to unlocking more to what doc has to offer. I don't want to be the only doc who uses them in battle. All doc players should learn how to use it during a match, just like WD out of shine or gentlemening or whatever. This is a new technique that we just scrapped the surface of how to use it.

Here are 2 quick videos of me messing around with up+b cancels trying to figure out when they work best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5dIISaklMQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEmr977t7vs

 

[Eclectic Echo]

True, true. He's simple and just a solid all-around character. My go to character when I feel like messing around.

I still haven't gotten around to practicing a few things with him. Are up+b cancels simple?

 

[Frisbie]

one good way to use it that i just thought of is that you can purposely mess up your spacing (like do an upair into your opponent's shield) and bait a shield grab. im pretty sure that you can get the up b off before the grab-box comes out, and then you can start a combo. even though it's really fast coming out, it has a good amount of lag, making followups DI dependent. it seems pretty good out of shield

the only times ive been able to get it was on 1/4 speed, and i always ended up backwards

 

[SmashMac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no0UfJzY6IU

@2:02

That's from a tournament set at LTEC 1 in Feb of 2007 that I had with Rice, one of the best south Falco players that became notorious in the south later that year.

I've been explaining the usages of up+B cancel OOS since I first started maining Doc. for over 5 years, and just now is when I finally see it being discussed in the Doc. forums?!?

 

[Max?]

Doc is right where he belongs on the tier list. The only characters he could be argued to be above are Icies and Falcon (LOL Aziz), but let's be honest, there is no way he's better than them lol.

I'm glad people are starting to acknowledge how hard the Falco matchup is, tho I think if you play like a ****** and are willing to camp him back and pick your spots conservatively, it's really not that bad.

What makes doing an UpB cancel oos so much better than an upB oos? Or Usmash? Or just WDing OOS to escape pressure and then doing anything?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think the Up+B cancel is probably nicer than the Up+B OOS in some situations because you can put people (space animals) on platforms and proceed from there. Doc has a few nice things to do against people on platforms, and keeping below the opponent probably opens up better opportunities for following up. Because it's a solid, single hit, I'd also imagine it's less susceptible to shenanigans (like edgecancels off a stray hit, random SDIs, etc).

I don't think it's gonna replace WD OOS or the current staples any time soon. But it probably has some good value just because of its raw speed.

 

[Frisbie]

the hitbox for up b comes out three times as fast as usmash out of shield. like kk said, its raw speed is what makes it so good

 

[Max?]

Right, but what makes it better than flat out doing UpB?

 

[boss8]

Right, but what makes it better than flat out doing UpB?

more time to punish,less time to land with lag?

 

[Frisbie]

cause you can follow it up. and it's really good for recovery

 

[phi1ny3]

Spoiler

You can also go:

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

from Dogysamich, don't have the original post.

This was really helpful, thank you, I was about to ask the input for this haha

 

[KirbyKaze]

Right, but what makes it better than flat out doing UpB?

I think the Up+B cancel is probably nicer than the Up+B OOS in some situations because you can put people (space animals) on platforms and proceed from there. Doc has a few nice things to do against people on platforms, and keeping below the opponent probably opens up better opportunities for following up. Because it's a solid, single hit, I'd also imagine it's less susceptible to shenanigans (like edgecancels off a stray hit, random SDIs, etc).

Just my 2 cents.

I don't know this character that well, but those seem like okay reasons.

I generally think staying on the ground when dealing with moves that become punishable if SDIed or CC teched or whatever is ideal. Reducing the number of hits in a move is also generally good when defense is first and follows are second (since, realistically, this is a 'get off me' tool).

If you disagree, I will likely defer to your experience since Doc is fairly foreign to me. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts, though.

 

[Max?]

I agree with you KK, you make valid points as usual. My post was addressed at other Doc mains. I just want to hear it from them, what's their logic for something which imo is more or less impractical.

 

[ZaXXoR]

Spoiler

You can also go:

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

from Dogysamich, don't have the original post.

Man thanks alot for this! The original Doctors Checkup video didn't explain it this well, helped alot

 

[Frisbie]

in addition to KK's points, it also makes the risk-reward ratio better. even though there is a good bit of lag after up b canceling, if you whiff it and as a result get hit, you will still have your jump, where as if you whiff a regular up b and get hit out of the air, you will not have a jump. honestly, it's not anything ground breaking, but it's useful in certain situations, and i also think there are situations where it's better to do a regular up b, depending on where you are on a map,which character you are playing against, and who your playing against

 

[Mr.Lemon]

I agree with you KK, you make valid points as usual. My post was addressed at other Doc mains. I just want to hear it from them, what's their logic for something which imo is more or less impractical.

It's not really that impractical. I think of it as another option doc has at close range. It's comes out extremely fast and has longer range then his grab.

 

[Frisbie]

im not agreeing with otg, but that doesnt show a reason why you should up b cancel instead of just up b

 

[Max?]

If people can UpB cancel consistently, I'm all for it. Frankly, with all the technical stuff people are mastering nowadays I wouldn't be surprised to see some point learn it. It's solid as a mix-up in terms of OOS punish, tho I agree with KK that it does not replace the staples.

I will state however that I feel that regular UpB OOS is pretty solid and underused.

Oh, and I don't believe for a second you can punish from UpB cancel EVER unless you're opponent is ********

 

[#HBC | Mac]

?

but lemon just posted a vid of him getting kill off of upbc...
(missed tech but still, **** happens)

@0:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJbc7Qi52Fg

 

[Max?]

I'm aware Yedi, but his opponent was clearly terrible/********. His DI was horrendous and then he missed a tech and got hit by a fair on the bounce.

 

[Frisbie]

seeing as i cant do it other than in 1/4 speed, im not going to waste my time trying to do it when there are other things that i could get better at that are more useful. i do think that upb cancel can be followed, but more of in the way that kk mentioned (in other words not a gaurunteed followup). and i agree that it does not replace his other out of shield options by any means, but is merely a useful oos mixup

 

[Blanky]

i somewhat agree with otg, only in that it's useful if you can do it consistently. Mr.Lemon does it veryyy consistently. i hardly see him mess it up haha and only one of two things could happen
1. you follow up (not guarenteed, but very probable depending on the situation)
2. you dont follow up, but you've got your opponent off you without being punished while dealing a little damage.

also, it's looks retardedly fresh

 

[Violence]

I think DI is semi understandable. The thing hits you on frame 3, and is quite surprising out of shield when they think they're safe from Usmash oos. Even good space animals will be more focused on their shield pressure inputs and end up with an awkward DI.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Missing DI on something that hits you on frame 4 with barely any hitlag (reduces window for SDI) is forgivable. Unless you basically expect to get hit by it, you are not going to DI it properly. However, missing the tech is less forgivable and I'd be willing to bet a few dollars that spacies can laser during the freefall if they're not landing on a platform to land standing (like they can vs Samus on FD). Fortunately, space animals aren't smart enough to invoke laser AC landing at all available opportunities (yet).

This is why I specified that I feel its usefulness will be in placing opponents on platforms, above Doc.

Mercifully, Doc isn't really bad vs space animals on FD in a general sense and most of the stages that we play on have platforms so if there is a solid utility in placing people above you then it will be applicable on the majority of the played stages.

Nurgle.

It will be funny if Shroomed learns how to do this before he learns how to d-throw fair floaties. He will probably do something incredibly cool yet highly illegitimate with it, and then people will probably focus intensely on learning this. No matter how flukey or situational it was.

That's generally how things like this tend to go.

 

[Max?]

Yeah the community sucks.

Is anyone going to Zenith?