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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Dogysamich

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Wow.

I saw that when it first dropped, and I hadnt gotten around to it yet cause it was like "That guy. He's good and all, but it cant be anything amazing."

.... **** am I wrong.

There's actually some real, witty, stuff in there. Like, yeah it's got some standard combo video "You got ***** for bad DI" stuff, but there are actually some REAL **** good moves in there.

*scratches chin* I already liked this guy, and now im like -head nod- F*ck. Yes.

 

Strong Badam

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next time i play darkrain (sat.) i'm totally using doc.
the only thing i don't like about doc (other than his recovery, but at least I can compensate for that with DI and the Tornado) is his terrible grab range. D:
 

eighteenspikes

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this is good

i command thee to watch it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0hg5v4Vtl4

my doc actually sucks, i realize this now lol
Whaaaat. 10% of that was stuff you can maybe pull off in a tourney, 10% is stuff that was just so outlandish it was cool, and the rest of it is combos I could only recreate on a CPU. God DAYUMN that DI was unbelievable. I liked the music and it was fun to watch after shutting my brain off, but don't you dare say you suck after watching that :psycho:
 

otg

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Whaaaat. 10% of that was stuff you can maybe pull off in a tourney, 10% is stuff that was just so outlandish it was cool, and the rest of it is combos I could only recreate on a CPU. God DAYUMN that DI was unbelievable. I liked the music and it was fun to watch after shutting my brain off, but don't you dare say you suck after watching that :psycho:
My thoughts exactly, but he had some good ideas in there. Like using dash attack to beat out spacies illusion and what not, that's a **** good idea.
 

Desh

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Lol, that was one dam good video.
Yeah, sure there was the big bad DI in some clips.
But this guys amazing o_o
Like really, he knows wtf hes doing.
dayummmmm
 

Dogysamich

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next time i play darkrain (sat.) i'm totally using doc.
the only thing i don't like about doc (other than his recovery, but at least I can compensate for that with DI and the Tornado) is his terrible grab range. D:
Doc... vs darkrain. Why would you do that to yourself?
Jk. I wanna try him again since I actually have a **** clue against what to do against falcons. Those friendlies at TO4 werent very friendly. XD

But as for doc's recovery? Compensation? Pfft. Doc has the 2nd worst recovery in the game; leaps and bounds under Falco (3rd worst), but completely dominates Roy's (the worst).

And yeah, Doc's grab range is pretty ****ing terrible. -starts thinking of game-to-game comparisons-
calm down. its a combo video, not videos of actual matches :) epic combos though.
Actually, im pretty sure alot of those were from matches. I do remember seeing some of reaper's matches and... that kinda stuff happening.

And "Not videos from actual matches"; i hope you're implying that smash is trying to be like other fighting games and... having combo exhibitions. Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaause as much as I argue the other way, that'd be so dumb if that were the case.
 

MaDWaK

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Doc... vs darkrain. Why would you do that to yourself?
Jk. I wanna try him again since I actually have a **** clue against what to do against falcons. Those friendlies at TO4 werent very friendly. XD

But as for doc's recovery? Compensation? Pfft. Doc has the 2nd worst recovery in the game; leaps and bounds under Falco (3rd worst), but completely dominates Roy's (the worst).

And yeah, Doc's grab range is pretty ****ing terrible. -starts thinking of game-to-game comparisons-

Actually, im pretty sure alot of those were from matches. I do remember seeing some of reaper's matches and... that kinda stuff happening.

And "Not videos from actual matches"; i hope you're implying that smash is trying to be like other fighting games and... having combo exhibitions. Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaause as much as I argue the other way, that'd be so dumb if that were the case.
Well I knew these were from actual matches. Its just that most of these combos aren't every day practical combos. if they are then I'll be truly impressed
 

Christopher Rodriguez

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But as for doc's recovery? Compensation? Pfft. Doc has the 2nd worst recovery in the game; leaps and bounds under Falco (3rd worst), but completely dominates Roy's (the worst).
Where does ness's recovery place? I always thought his recovery was really bad besides the distance. Makes me kinda sad that his is better than docs, but then again I see why after taking so many bears to the face
 

otg

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Doc's recovery in terms of distance is 2nd worst. Mofo has options, and can sort of defend himself on the way back as well as create a barrier with pills. Granted, if you **** up your DI, or get sent below the stage you are probably dead, but I would say Doc's recovery is actually "decent" in comparison to certain characters (ness, yoshi, falco, sheik, etc) whose recoveries are incredibly exploitable due to one flaw or another. The same can be said for Doc... but no duh lol.
 

eighteenspikes

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Pfft. Doc has the 2nd worst recovery in the game; leaps and bounds under Falco (3rd worst), but completely dominates Roy's (the worst).

Soooo wrong :mad:

also uair nair works better on floatier chars like marth peach and sheik, idk why you guys havent been doing it. I'm pretty sure there's clips of me doing those in "take it and get out" which is from like 2006 :urg: lol
 

Dogysamich

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Doc can get some decent distance, and he can defend himself (somewhat), but the 2 big problems he has with his recovery is

1) he has no real options.
-You're gunna land on the stage or grab the ledge. If you land on the stage from an up+b, you're lagged and should be send off the stage again

2) to get the most out of your recovery, you have to make a bunch of commitments
-Torando? 79
-Cape? 35
-Pill? 43
-And its not always so much of what you're committing to doing as much as it could be what you CANT do. (i.e., if you throw a pill, it's not so much that your opponent can get out there and punish you for that as it is he knows you CANT jump for 43 frames, so he can position himself around that.)

___

Falco's recovery is pretty bad, but it's still leaps and bounds above docs. He's got options. He's got plenty of options. It's really that, because people know how to fight falco, they know how to gimp a falco real easy. Same can be done to Doc.

___

Sheik's recovery by itself is bad. But she's got 2 perks for her recovery.

1) She can cover a pretty long distance by using the worst move in the game. (Down+B) because Zelda's recovery blows sheik's out of the water.

but..

2) Sheik not only can protect herself when recovering, she's an actual viable threat when recovering.
-It's one thing that she can actually protect herself by turning around and b.airing; which is longer than alot of things that may come at her..
-But she can just f.air, or u.air. They both work.

___

Ness actually has an overall good recovery, the BIG problem with his comes from the fact that ness's recovery is the only one in the game that literally takes skill (read: you will literally be limited in your options by how little you practice.)

-If you dont practice SSing from above, you force yourself to have to recover low every time, which alot of characters can jump out and stop by just being there (as opposed to being higher, which is harder to JUMP to.)

-If you cant slope, and slope ss, then you limit yourself to landing on the stage in PKT2's land lag... which is HORRID. That's why ness gets *****.

-I mean hell, if you cant SS period, you're ****ed with ness. DJ->airdodge can only save you from so much. XD

____

Yoshi's recovery? I dont really know alot about it. I know it's decent beyond the obvious you HAVE to have a double jump. So assuming you have it, it really comes down to knowing the super armor mechanics. Because I have played some yoshi's and seen some pretty witty ****. (DJ as somebody goes to hit them with something weak, b.air past them to knock them away, then come back to edgeguard).

~~~~~

When it's all said and done, ALL of those recoveries are still better than docs, for one reason or another. The ONLY person who has it worse than Doc is Roy (and that **** is just pitiful).

"Aww... roy got hit out of his DJ in the middle of dreamland, I hope he doe~~~ awwwwwwwwwwww."

I mean atleast Doc can make futile atempts to come back with PTP and whatnot. Roy is just f**ked.

*edit*
if im wrong 18s, feel free to tell me why.

Cause honestly, the way i see it is the way i see alot of things about doc. The only reason why we get away with it is because people dont know.

I mean, that's like people DIing f.airs. I'd take a stab in the dark and say 10% of the smash community really knows how to DI is. I'd go as far as to say I'd guess that most people who post on this forum right now dont REALLY know how you're supposed to DI it to live.
 

otg

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How to DI Doc's fair you mean? Also, the list I put together came out of my ***, I don't ****ing know what I'm talking about. I do agree that people don't know how to fight Doc, so stfu and let them keep ****ing up.
 

eighteenspikes

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ok im at school between classes so im gonna stream-of-consciousness this out:

doc sounds bad on paper, but the reason he recovers so well is the same reason I tell people not to rely on chaingrabs. It's because people always eventually mess up their timing. And messing up your timing VS doc is a lot scarier than vs other characters. Doc recovering low and having a really fast up b makes it comparably difficult to edgeguard (doc is pretty easy to tech with, too). I mean, if you can see it coming, and doc's at MAX DISTANCE and you're just BARELY going to make it, you'll probably get edgehogged, even if you tornado stall. And in that respect, literally EVERYONE should be easily edgeguarded at their max distance, because the timing is pretty easy. But if you are nearby and still have your jump, your options are much scarier to someone edgeguarding you than a falco or a captain falcon, etc. They have to psyche you out (cfal juking or falco canceling phantasm/aiming firebird) or else they're going to eat whatever's coming to them. There's no real danger when you mess up edgeguarding cfal. But if you mess up edgeguarding doc, you'll either get stage spiked DBR-style or it often sets up an easy upb->ledgehop bair. And your "MAX DISTANCE" is a lot farther than a Falco and comparable to other characters if you have good DI.
Anyways, I'm not saying Doc has a crazy good recovery, I'm just saying that I'd rather have my fast-*** heavy set-knockback up b than something that has a no-hitbox 2 second charge up and can only go like 10 inches. Options mean nothing when there's no protection.
 

Shroomed

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i said im bad from that cuz i realized
i dont plan anything out, i dont do anything smart
i jus hit someone, and try to hit them repeatedly until they die

why the **** do i win? lol

P.S. Doc has a terrible, horrible recovery
 

otg

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I wouldn't say Reaper is great, I'm sure he would get worked by the worst player in Idaho for godsakes. Combo vid is still impressive, so whatever works for you shroomed is what you should keep pursuing.

18 summed up why I think Doc's recovery is really good, his UpB is sexy as ****. But the big problem with was mentioned by Dogy, he is going to end up at either one of two places:
- you get the ledge with
- you land on the stage.

If you're landing on the stage with UpB and you DIDN'T hit your opponent with it you are screwed, but since it's a surprisingly strong attack, hitting someone early with it might be just what you need to survive your impending death. With really good DI, Doc doesn't even need to use his UpB until much higher percents, so sometimes this doesn't even apply. All in all, I think it's more effective than people give it credit for, but in terms of distance it's not the best.

HOWEVER, with beast DI, Doc's recovery is great. That's why I stress getting your DI right gentlemen, you will **** face that much longer, and it's so rewarding to live to 170% atleast once a match.
 

Dogysamich

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o But if you are nearby and still have your jump, your options are much scarier to someone edgeguarding you than a falco or a captain falcon, etc. They have to psyche you out (cfal juking or falco canceling phantasm/aiming firebird) or else they're going to eat whatever's coming to them. There's no real danger when you mess up edgeguarding cfal. But if you mess up edgeguarding doc, you'll either get stage spiked DBR-style or it often sets up an easy upb->ledgehop bair. And your "MAX DISTANCE" is a lot farther than a Falco and comparable to other characters if you have good DI.
Before I say anything, you're absolutely right in that regard. I know it, but how good it is really is is one of those "eye of the beholder things." When it's all said and done, yes you are right.

Now, with that being said; maybe it's just me, but I find that more often than not if somebody is going to jump out at me, they're got their finger on the trigger waiting for a stage spike. I mean.. you're doc, what else are you going to do.

--thinks--
I actually just got an idea of what else you could do, new **** to **** around with. XD

Anyways, I'm not saying Doc has a crazy good recovery, I'm just saying that I'd rather have my fast-*** heavy set-knockback up b than something that has a no-hitbox 2 second charge up and can only go like 10 inches. Options mean nothing when there's no protection.
Yeah, falco's up+b is pretty horrid. But you gotta realize falco can do stuff like recover onto platforms, especially with edgecancels and whatnot. Doc wishes he could reach a platform ever on his recovery and be ok.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And how to DI Doc's f.air. The answer is pretty comical.

The default answer is that you dont. Seriously, think about it. It sends you to a corner. You DI in, you die off the top (like everybody does) You DI out, you die off the side. So realistically, you dont di.

That changes relative to where you get hit and what killwall is closer. (Like if you could get knocked clear across dreamland, you'd rather do that than DI in and go off the top, where as if you're standing next to the edge of FoD, you'd want to go up rather than out), but default is none.

___

*laughs sarcastically* I have absolutely no problem saying something like this cause well, people still wont do it. There's this common belief in smash that "everything must be DId". It's pretty comical. I've told countless people this before and they, to this day, swear i'm lying to them. And they wonder why they die at dumb %s.

There are a few things that go into this, like chaingrabbing a ganon. The best way for ganon to get out of doc's chaingrab at low% is to not DI (especially at 0%, oh dear god I hate this one), because to regrab, doc has to pivot grab. Most docs (and marios), i've played in this matchup think they can just stand and grab cause it LOOKs like you can. (This actually happened to me for ages and I could never figure it out).

People just have all these notions because against the Elite 4 and friends (Fox, Marth, Sheik, Falco, Jiggs, Falcon), you HAVE to DI everything. (Except for Marth on spanimal chaingrab at low%, if i remember right; i could be wrong about that.

 

Shroomed

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i like that

Elite 4 and friends lol

Doc's fair and Dsmash is the ONLY reason he's good lol
cuz the dsmash is so fast it can catch ppl not DI'ing right

and the fair is the fair, it jus kills =D
 

Strong Badam

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I always find it amusing when people DI the f-air completely wrong. I've killed a Peach three times at like 110% on a stage like Dreamland because of horrible DI

and yeah marth spanimal cg at 20-30% requires upwards/no DI into a shine to get out.
 

Shroomed

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tech dogy tech!

the marth i play all the time counters my pills when i throw them to recover then i get gimped by the counter hit so i dont thro pills much vs marth when he's edgeguarding me
 

Dogysamich

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see, i tried to be like 18s and all, and be all kool and ****. And then i got kool cancelled. :(

That's my story and im stickin to it.

*edit*
TECH!?!?!?!?

YOU THINK I ACTUALLY SAW THAT COMING!??!?!? XD
 

otg

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lmao, I wouldn't have seen that **** coming, but granted, I probably wouldn't have tried to sweetspot the ledge either. Your DJ came so close to grabbing the ledge, I would just Upb right there and than, landing on the platform.
 

Christopher Rodriguez

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Oh, and talking about up+b and getting edgehogged.

I mean, maybe im salty at up+b cause of sh*t like this XD
Oh god I hate when marths do that to me! I know this marth who is like, pro at countering my recovery.. and even if you didn't get stage spiked, I'm pretty sure it would've knocked you too far away for docs tiny recovery to reach.
 

Dogysamich

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You have to know where to DI stuff to not get comboed, and then also know where to DI to not die from it.

Cause I mean, you dont want to DI in when you get knee'd if you're at like, 0%, cause you'll get grabbed. But you dont want to DI out at like, 70% ... cause you'll die.

and then up and down? Same thing. you realistically just have to know how to DI whatever you get hit with. Up will not help you in any shape-form-or-fasion when Fox comes running in with an upsmash. (I mean, it wont even help you die.)
 

Christopher Rodriguez

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How do you DI against captain? I mean, I understand DI but when it comes to captain I get comboed for dayssss, and I know I can somewhat prevent some of it, do I DI up and away or down and away? I hope I'm not being confusing.
 

Desh

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away. always di away. just. away XP
and you di the kneee upp
=D
and dont jump until yer safe =o or else its even worse DX
 
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