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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Jul 3, 2002
Messages
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Hey all first time coming in here and being a new Doc player I just have a few questions.


1. Is it a good idea to throw pills in the air?
2. Is the Bdown effective at all?
3. Should I use the Fair alot?
and
4. Whats his most important tilt?

I dont know if this is the best place to post, it just seems that this would be quickest way to get my questions answered.
18s basically gave you some cliffnotes, there are 2 points I really feel like talking about cause it's 12:30 and im bored. XD

1) Is it a good idea to throw pills in the air?
- Yes, but you have to understand how the pill game works. By itself, you have 3 heights you can throw a pill. FH height, SH height, and Ground.

Whenever you throw a pill, it is going to bounce back to the height you threw it at. So if you throw a FH Pill, it's going to bounce back up to FH height. (This is opposed to Mario's fireballs, which decay in their bounce height).

This is important because if you do something like only throw FH pills, what's going to happen is you're going to have alot of projectiles controlling airspace, but none controlling ground space.

Like 18s said, there is some delay (recovery, cooldown, whatever you call it), after you throw the pill. If you keep throwing FH pills, anybody who knows the match is going to start looking for openings to running under your pills.

So beyond that, you have to know how easily people can go around your pills (Around being over under).

Note that I've said nothing about people who have ways of going THROUGH your pills.

2) Is Tornado useful?
a. Yes for recovery (if you can gain height. Test this by going to FD, tornadoing OFF THE GROUND, and then trying to double jump. If you cant do it, tornado will actually hurt your recovery. Contrary to popular belief, you dont specifically have to "PTP" to be able to use it on recovery (I cant PTP).

b. As an attack itself, situational as hell. The only time I even consider it is if somebody is recovering higher than you can jump. (Note that you really dont ever want to double jump then tornado. That's greedy as f**k)

3) Should I f.air alot?
-F.air works like this.
a. It has a LONG windup (i18, and that's assuming you're already in the air).
b. It kills.
So that means you want to use it, but you're going to be hard pressed to actually BEAT any attacks with it.
If you want to use it alot, then you have to find alot of times where you wont be challenging an attack.

Realistically, if you want to be like ganon and space with fair, you can get away with it against a large majority of the cast; but you cant do something like try to kill DDing with it.

If you score alot of knockdowns you can throw alot of f.airs; but if your opponent is always standing in a threatening position you cant.

tl;dr - you can if you know how to not get outprioritized and/or punished.

4) What's the most important tilt?
- Not d.tilt.

well i dont have aim but any particular reason for the reluctance to put em on smashboards?
ps. downthrow knee works at any percent because falcon is a G. :cool:
That's why. It makes things easier if the misconceptions are just left there and the people who do the work know the truth.

I could give you my whole "Alex Valle" run around, but eh. XD

But yeah, take d.throw knee on doc, for example. So long as Doc DI's right, there is absolutely no percent that it is ever guarenteed. I never knew this because I never actually went and TESTED it myself, I just went with everybody's "Well I see it all the time, so it must work" logic. Then I got fed up a month or 2 ago and actually tested it.

Since there isnt a "set list" of guarenteed %s anywhere on that forums, people just assume it works. (not a full one, mind you. -points to the matchup discussion- that's why, nobody knows "or cares" about a majority of the cast).

The truth about Dunk %s is something to that effect. (For the record, if it is the correct % range, there's no DIing away from it. There's only DIing to make it harder for doc)
 

The Alpha Gundam

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,759
Location
(Columbus,Ga)
Lol. If you feel like driving over here, that's cool and all. Where do you live in AL? What might actually work out if is we meet up in columbus a few times. I go there every once in a while to chill with Alpha and the many many underground smashplayers there (DP's Mario for one, if you happen to know/remember him).

But "The Doc Conference", as I'm talking about is just us getting in an aim chatroom. XD
The Doc conference is an actual conference held each year at random locations.
The first one was at TGMT where Dogy and Caveman had a 30min discussion on why Caveman quit Dox.
the next one was at Fast1 with Dogy and Smashmac getting clowned on by DJN and GM
next one will be at Genesis but dogy wont be there due to not winning enough tourneys here in GA XD
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
because f-tilt has the most range of all doc's moves, I find it incredibly useful.

1. In cases where it outranges the other person's moves, you use to stop them from comping in.

2. I use it often against marth (Pivot f-tilt for the win), because it helps punish him the most for misspacing an attack.

3. Edgeuarding--use it to mess up space animal recoveries (as they can avoid the cape better than others)

4. eats projectiles (single needles, boomarang, fireball, pill)
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,297
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
because f-tilt has the most range of all doc's moves, I find it incredibly useful.


4. eats projectiles (single needles, boomarang, fireball, pill)

Ah right, I haven't thought of that. I'll try to remember that lol.
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,932
Location
Aurora, Colorado
Wait... it can beat single needles? So is it a disjoint, or non?

Lol. If you feel like driving over here, that's cool and all. Where do you live in AL? What might actually work out if is we meet up in columbus a few times. I go there every once in a while to chill with Alpha and the many many underground smashplayers there (DP's Mario for one, if you happen to know/remember him).

But "The Doc Conference", as I'm talking about is just us getting in an aim chatroom. XD
I'd DL AIM for that shiz.

I'd delete it two seconds later, but I'd dl it.

Hey all first time coming in here and being a new Doc player I just have a few questions.


1. Is it a good idea to throw pills in the air?
2. Is the Bdown effective at all?
3. Should I use the Fair alot?
and
4. Whats his most important tilt?

I dont know if this is the best place to post, it just seems that this would be quickest way to get my questions answered.
1) Been addressed.

2) I've been ******* around with it randomly. I'll post my results later. Right now, I'd avoid it for anything aside from recovery. For recovery's sake, practice tornados on the ground on FD. Just mash B as fast as you can. Once you get to the point where you can get it high enough to allow you to double-jump before you land, you've got it. Of course, there will be days where you can't PTP to save your life, but it still helps to practice.

3) I've been using the fair like Falcon uses stomp. If I know they'll get up with an attack, I'll FH, fastfall, then DJ right before I get into attack space and ff a fair. Actually, I use it a lot less in combos and a lot more as a punisher. But that's because I suck. D:

4) I'd say it's match-up specific. Personally, I prefer ftilt over utilt. I use it as a poke, primarily, or as the ender to pretty much any 2 piece combo (fair>ftilt at low percents, dash attack>ftilt, whatever>ftilt, really). And don't listen to these naysayers, dtilt has its uses. They're just really limited.

----

GUIZE! I TAPED MATCHES, AND A FRIEND IS LETTING ME USE HIS CAPTURE CARD, SO I'LL BE PUTTING THEM UP OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT WEEK. IF I PLAY GREEN DOC, IGNORE ANY TECHNICAL ERRORS/SIDESTEPPING/ROLLING SHENANIGANS, AS I'M NORMALLY TRYING STUPID **** JUST TO SEE WHAT WORKS WHEN I'M GREEN!

Also, and I can't remember if I got this on film, I FFed a pill two days ago and it bounced at a REALLY weird angle. Like... straight up. Anyone else have this happen? I've tried to duplicate it, but had no luck. I'll be looking for it in the vids, and if I find it, I'll post it.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Good luck trying to get rid of AIM afterwards, Zeal.

And I'd be (kinda) down for the Doc conference, if only to listen and learn more about the character. But I can understand if ya'll don't want me there, considering Doc IS a secondary of mine after all.

Smooth Criminal
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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Jun 26, 2007
Messages
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Location
Mos Eisley
haha for the record, i was kidding about the "dthrow knee works at any percent" thing.
but yea a number of factors go into landing dthrow knee and just because you see it all the time doesnt make it garunteed. I know from experience that someone playing a floaty can make it tough by DI'ing either hard back and up, (to make you have to full hop knee) or hard down and away (making you have to run and short hop knee) and a slow reaction on reading/reacting to either of these by just a fraction of a second can give your opponent just enough time to break hitstun and escape.

as for the Dunk, i've got a new question, is DI'ing behind doc the best option? because you wont have time to turn around and jump and fair and i dont know about the backwards hitbox on the KOBE but i saw you do a reverse fair on a fox in a recent match i watched and was kind of surprised but i figure DI'ing behind would be safest thing to shoot for when you get grabbed by doc...
 

rpgfighter

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
433
Location
Chantilly VA
Thanks for all the input everyone. I just have one problem, I can tilt only about 18% of the time I try to do it. Its really hard for me to know how when I clearly dont know what I am suppose to do exactly.

So if anyone can tell me what I am suppose to do input wise that would be nice. I know its a smash attack except you dont hold it... I just dont get it to come out.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Uuuum, you could either not smash the stick over when you go to tilt, or you could move it in the middle of neutral and full.

Neutral----whereyouwanttobe-----stickgate

Something like that.


 

eighteenspikes

Smash Master
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Neenah, WI
One method for doing tilts is to buffer the stick input. For an example, let's say you just whiffed a dsmash against a falcon and you know he's gonna fly in with a nair/dair/grab attempt/whatever. While you're still in lag for the dsmash, start holding up or forward for the desired tilt. Then you can hit A as soon as the dsmash lag finishes and do an up/f tilt without worrying about jumping/smashing by accident.

no one has addressed the yodel guard. it's clearly docs best edge guard tactic imo. use it. ^^
lol yes yodelowns rule. I have ended moneymatches with these
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Aurora, Colorado
Just practice. Don't go the full way, and be gentle!

Doc conference is still tiiiiiiiiight to me. I'm messing around with up canceling and downb tricksies, and I wouldn't mind sharing some info with our actual doc players.

How do you beat gaw, though? Him teching dthrow bothers me. I've started doing dthrow>dsmash, but that's not my only problem with the guy. D:
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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no one has addressed the yodel guard. it's clearly docs best edge guard tactic imo. use it. ^^

b. As an attack itself, situational as hell. The only time I even consider it is if somebody is recovering higher than you can jump. (Note that you really dont ever want to double jump then tornado. That's greedy as f**k)


Something like this.

___

I think im gunna look into doing this straight off the ledge. Sounds like it could be hilarious and better than trying to do a high ledgehop b.air.
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
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Just so everyone knows, hits 2-5 of the yodel actually combo, legit. I dunno how much effect CCing has on it, though.

Still, might be a tight way to end a combo, especially since the knockback is random.
 

anthony000

Smash Journeyman
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Sep 17, 2007
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Hyperbolic Time Chamber
3) I've been using the fair like Falcon uses stomp. If I know they'll get up with an attack, I'll FH, fastfall, then DJ right before I get into attack space and ff a fair. Actually, I use it a lot less in combos and a lot more as a punisher. But that's because I suck. D:
Been doing that ish for a while. It's nice. Yeah we do need to set a date for the conference.

Dogy, I'm from Huntsville. That's north AL.
 

St. Viers

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^^they are a mass of text in funny colors/sizes, with data, OT, and opinions thrown arounf like custard pies
 

Vulcan55

Smash Lord
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May-Lay
Lol, everyone thinks Doc is so bad in the match-up thread.

Is it weird that I think Doc v Marth is even (maybe 4-6 on smaller stages)?


Also, did anyone happen to watch the G.O. v2 live stream?
No?
Okay.

I should have some videos of me playing well/Mario soon.
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
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Apr 7, 2005
Messages
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Aurora, Colorado
But I saw Shroomed stick with Doc against HMW!

And lose because of it. Stupid HMW.

Also, I think it's funny that he was playing Falco, since I was thinking about dropping Sheik for Falco for tier-***** yumminess. Covers all Doc's bad match-ups, methinks. Marf is still hard, though.

how to move him up the tier list
Gross. I don't want to do that.
 

eighteenspikes

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We got another Doc conference scheduled huh? We should actually discuss something useful for once instead of how 18spikes screenname indicates hes a stoner yet he doesn't smoke.
dont worry about next time, i changed my sn. lemme know when youre doing another one cause i want in
 

TemPesT-

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Aug 24, 2006
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Minnesota
i was spamming upb cancels last time i played. they were just friendlies, but i was doing cool stuff with it. i kept interrupting his shield grabs with it :D. and often times i'd get a tech chase from it when he landed on platforms. i found it helpful vs marth too, because even if it just interrupted his shield grab, it got him way off me and did good damage. idk i like it more then i used to (used to just be a show off thing).
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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well, up+b IS i3 with invinc on frame 3, but you're really just asking people to wait in shield a little longer for the up+b cancel to net a heavy punish.

Im not saying dont do it, because if you stop grabs, you stop grabs.

Realistically, if you're going to stop a shield grab, you might as well jab. If you're looking to stop people from grabbing you while you're in shield, feel free to up+b cancel.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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Hey 18s.





____________

So, I feel slightly/partially/notreally motivated to working on some guide again.

I think im going to draw cards to see which one I pull.

-Doc Matchup Guide
-In Depth Doc Guide
-General Strat Guide
-F**k it i'll go start an rpg.
 

Shroomed

Smash Master
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Santa Cruz
i stepped my falco game up

watch my sets with zhu/falcomist that will be up when HMW stops bein hecka lazy lol

SO CLOSE TO BEATING ZHU

mute city transformed at the wrong time and made me miss a game winning grab =(

but no johns zhu is hecka good
 

HomeMadeWaffles

Smash Lord
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Union City, CA
But I saw Shroomed stick with Doc against HMW!

And lose because of it. Stupid HMW.

Also, I think it's funny that he was playing Falco, since I was thinking about dropping Sheik for Falco for tier-***** yumminess. Covers all Doc's bad match-ups, methinks. Marf is still hard, though.



Gross. I don't want to do that.
U MAD!?!?!?!

i stepped my falco game up

watch my sets with zhu/falcomist that will be up when HMW stops bein hecka lazy lol

SO CLOSE TO BEATING ZHU

mute city transformed at the wrong time and made me miss a game winning grab =(

but no johns zhu is hecka good
man upload peter's set from hecka long ago then get at me
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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mute city transformed at the wrong time and made me miss a game winning grab =(
Lol wut. What a john. XD

Fun fact for people who havent thought about it, there are only 5 non-random stages in melee.

Battlefield, Final D, RAINBOW CRUISE, MUTECITY, POKEFLOATS.

Every other legal stage has some random element to it.
 
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