Each Ganon's personal MU-ratio 2010 - (Finished)

[Vermanubis]

Vid: Z1gma(Fox) Vs Tonsana(Ganon)
This match is from 2008, I think, lol.

Z1GMA: 30 - 70
Comment: Fox ***** us in Close Range and Long Range
- We **** him in Middle Range and in the air.

He's quick and can shut us down with his fast attacks.
Don't get stuck in his Utilt Combos at low%, as they'll deal 40%+.
His Usmash kills us at around 115%.

His lasers will deal a little damage, but that's pretty much it.
He's not Falco, ya know.

G~P: 30-70 (EDITED FOR CLARITY).
typically fox is a good character with a glaring weakness that only a few characters can take advantage of truly. sadly ganon is not one of those characters, which means that fox can cause serious problems for us, his u-smash is far too powerful for a vulpine creature, which kills us about 120% with DI.
the one thing that makes this slightly bearable is the face that d-air will destroy fox if we can actually ladn it, and the fact that his lasers don't stun.
if we get in the right position, we can chain d-tilt's till a relatively high percentage. and because of his insane fall speed it appears offstage tipman gmping is a pretty effective way of fox-hunting
edit: i almost forgot, his stupidly high speed means hell be moving around us and we can hardly keep up. also his d-air approaches are extremely hard for us to block/punish

A2ZOMG: 40/60
Fox isn't that bad for Ganon. You lose little by waiting in this matchup, while almost all of Fox's kills require you to first make a mistake that is either whiffing or failing to angle your shield correctly. And the key thing is almost all of his kill moves and KO setups are unsafe on block. Due to Fox's low horizontal air mobility and low range, he generally is easy to punish on block, and this is a matchup where your shieldgrab is VERY useful.

Thunderstorming is great in this matchup as long as you aren't too predictable with it. He's not exactly very good at punishing it. Flame Choke combos are awesome on Fox and not unreasonably hard to set up due to his low range. Waiting in Dash Attack range is a good way to pressure him. Also edgeguarding him is low risk and high reward. You don't have to take too many risks to get into Fox's comfort zone and pressure him into making mistakes. The only reason why Ganon loses is pretty much just because of lasers by default giving Fox the lead.


Vermanubis: 30:70
Comment: Fox is really difficult to deal with for a lot of reasons:
1. He can shinestall, which makes it really hard to punish him in the air.
2. Can kill us about as early as we can kill him with the exception of our Fsmash or gimp.
3. Can poke Ganon easier than **** with his DAir.
4. Can gimp Ganon with little issue.
But, the good is that he is incredibly easy to gimp, his camp game isn't too great and if you can predict his shinestalls, he's a bullseye in midair. We by far outdo him in the air. Our DAir makes it really risky for him to approach us as well.

Also, would it be a good idea to post vids if we have them? I'll just follow Z1g's lead with his video I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-LFrC7D_lc

 

[Heartstring]

oh, my bad guys, i naturally put the higher rating first XD

 

[DLA]

Z1GMA: 30 - 70
Comment: Fox ***** us in Close Range and Long Range
- We **** him in Middle Range and in the air.

He's quick and can shut us down with his fast attacks.
Don't get stuck in his Utilt Combos at low%, as they'll deal 40%+.
His Usmash kills us at around 115%.

His lasers will deal a little damage, but that's pretty much it.
He's not Falco, ya know.

G~P: 30-70 (EDITED FOR CLARITY).
typically fox is a good character with a glaring weakness that only a few characters can take advantage of truly. sadly ganon is not one of those characters, which means that fox can cause serious problems for us, his u-smash is far too powerful for a vulpine creature, which kills us about 120% with DI.
the one thing that makes this slightly bearable is the face that d-air will destroy fox if we can actually ladn it, and the fact that his lasers don't stun.
if we get in the right position, we can chain d-tilt's till a relatively high percentage. and because of his insane fall speed it appears offstage tipman gmping is a pretty effective way of fox-hunting
edit: i almost forgot, his stupidly high speed means hell be moving around us and we can hardly keep up. also his d-air approaches are extremely hard for us to block/punish

A2ZOMG: 40/60
Fox isn't that bad for Ganon. You lose little by waiting in this matchup, while almost all of Fox's kills require you to first make a mistake that is either whiffing or failing to angle your shield correctly. And the key thing is almost all of his kill moves and KO setups are unsafe on block. Due to Fox's low horizontal air mobility and low range, he generally is easy to punish on block, and this is a matchup where your shieldgrab is VERY useful.

Thunderstorming is great in this matchup as long as you aren't too predictable with it. He's not exactly very good at punishing it. Flame Choke combos are awesome on Fox and not unreasonably hard to set up due to his low range. Waiting in Dash Attack range is a good way to pressure him. Also edgeguarding him is low risk and high reward. You don't have to take too many risks to get into Fox's comfort zone and pressure him into making mistakes. The only reason why Ganon loses is pretty much just because of lasers by default giving Fox the lead.


Vermanubis: 30:70
Comment: Fox is really difficult to deal with for a lot of reasons:
1. He can shinestall, which makes it really hard to punish him in the air.
2. Can kill us about as early as we can kill him with the exception of our Fsmash or gimp.
3. Can poke Ganon easier than **** with his DAir.
4. Can gimp Ganon with little issue.
But, the good is that he is incredibly easy to gimp, his camp game isn't too great and if you can predict his shinestalls, he's a bullseye in midair. We by far outdo him in the air. Our DAir makes it really risky for him to approach us as well.

DLA: 40 - 60

This matchup's actually pretty good for Ganon. Most good foxes that you fight are going to try to spam what little Tech skill Brawl has at you (pivot grabs etc). For example, Fox runs so fast that when he dashes at Ganon, Ganon is put at a frame disadvantage. If you shield expecting a Usmash, he'll usually try to grab or pivot grab, which will usually land before Ganon is able to punish OoS. And if we don't shield, we're liable to take a Usmash.

That's why movement is very important in this MU. IMO, a match with Fox plays a lot like a Melee match (not Melee fox BTW... just a melee match in general). Fox's moves don't have considerable range or priority, so he needs to be good at predicting where you'll be/what you'll do. That's why, as Ganon, you need to move around a lot and be unpredictable in your actions. Mindgames son. Use platforms to your advantage. Make sure you stay on him so that he can't just stand back and spam lasers at you. When you see a space to punish, you gotta punish HARD. Make it count. Edgeguarding's pretty **** easy in this MU--especially wizkicking offstage. I wouldn't attempt this too much when fox is recovering from above (since he'll usually just shinestall to avoid it); it usually works best when fox is below the stage, then DJ->Fair's to get a lot of vertical distance (he goes below the stage a lot because he's a fast faller). Just wizkick him out of this and he's done.

Oh and remember that if you're in kill range, you're gonna have to play really shieldy. Fox's throws simply won't kill you, so eat as many of those as you like. Fox actually has a hard time killing Ganon if you're good at avoiding/shielding Usmashes.

 

[Z1GMA]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: Sheik can shut us down, Ftilt Juggle us, camp us a little,
and her speed + Grab Game is very effective Vs Ganon.
It's hard to land safe on the ground without her grabbing us again.

But, if we get a small tad of momentum, we can do pretty nasty things to her.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: Sheik can shut us down, Ftilt Juggle us, camp us a little,
and her speed + Grab Game is very effective Vs Ganon.
It's hard to land safe on the ground without her grabbing us again.

But, if we get a small tad of momentum, we can do pretty nasty things to her.

Red8: 10-90
Sheik will win. The only way you can win is if the sheik is kennispam and the Ganon is DLA (lul namesearch ****). It really is all about breaking the momentum, if we can get a little bit it usually equals a lot (a la all of our matchups >.>) Two best tips are to 1) always hang on the edge when she recovers, it forces a Vanish recovery which we can AD on stage -> punish, and 2) learn to DI ftilt. I talk about it in the annoying moves thread so check it out.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: Sheik can shut us down, Ftilt Juggle us, camp us a little,
and her speed + Grab Game is very effective Vs Ganon.
It's hard to land safe on the ground without her grabbing us again.

But, if we get a small tad of momentum, we can do pretty nasty things to her.

Red8: 10-90
Sheik will win. The only way you can win is if the sheik is kennispam and the Ganon is DLA (lul namesearch ****). It really is all about breaking the momentum, if we can get a little bit it usually equals a lot (a la all of our matchups >.>) Two best tips are to 1) always hang on the edge when she recovers, it forces a Vanish recovery which we can AD on stage -> punish, and 2) learn to DI ftilt. I talk about it in the annoying moves thread so check it out.

Sol Diviner: 0-100
Honestly, Sheik is a pain in the bearded a**! It's bad enough she has a deisel Ftilt juggle on Ganon, and worse that she can spam with her needles. What's more dooming is her DACUS, though it isn't the worst. I suppose the nails in the coffin would be her Chain Jacket glitch to edgeguard us (assuming they know how to perform it properly). The only way for us to win is to predict the hell out of her and punish all mistakes whilst being defensive, only going offensive when we're ready to gimp her recovery.

 

[KenniSpam!]

the only way you can win is if the sheik is kennispam and the ganon is dla (lul namesearch ****)

i hate you

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: Sheik can shut us down, Ftilt Juggle us, camp us a little,
and her speed + Grab Game is very effective Vs Ganon.
It's hard to land safe on the ground without her grabbing us again.

But, if we get a small tad of momentum, we can do pretty nasty things to her.

Red8: 10-90
Sheik will win. The only way you can win is if the sheik is kennispam and the Ganon is DLA (lul namesearch ****). It really is all about breaking the momentum, if we can get a little bit it usually equals a lot (a la all of our matchups >.>) Two best tips are to 1) always hang on the edge when she recovers, it forces a Vanish recovery which we can AD on stage -> punish, and 2) learn to DI ftilt. I talk about it in the annoying moves thread so check it out.

Sol Diviner: 0-100
Honestly, Sheik is a pain in the bearded a**! It's bad enough she has a deisel Ftilt juggle on Ganon, and worse that she can spam with her needles. What's more dooming is her DACUS, though it isn't the worst. I suppose the nails in the coffin would be her Chain Jacket glitch to edgeguard us (assuming they know how to perform it properly). The only way for us to win is to predict the hell out of her and punish all mistakes whilst being defensive, only going offensive when we're ready to gimp her recovery.

A2ZOMG: 5/95
Pick another character. Everything Sheik does just owns Ganon. She camps you well, she outspaces you solidly, her close up game is infinitely better (not helping that your grab range is crap), she combos you to ridiculously high damage really easily, and she also gimps you very effectively. To make things worse, she can often evade a lot of Ganon's high hitting moves by ducking or even Dash Attacking. This matchup is just beyond awful for Ganon.

 

[Z1GMA]

Wow, the only MU where I'm more positive than the other Dorfs, heh.

You guys think Sheik is harder than MK?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, Sheik is harder than MK.

MK dies earlier and doesn't have a projectile or 2 frame Jab. Plus Sheik has F-tilt from like 20-80 or something that ends in Up-smash for almost 100 damage.

 

[Z1GMA]

That's true, but at least we can get momentum going Vs Sheik.

We can't gimp MK, and he's hard to edeguard in general.

We can't get momentum Vs him... Gerudo -> Dtilt is pretty much it,
since it's impossible to juggle him and/or punish his landing.
We just can't get a hold of him, unlike Snake and Sheik.

 

[smashkng]

Sheik has no disjoints unlike MK, and her range isn't that impressive, so we don't get outpriorised. Sheik has problems killing outside gimps, 100% damage isn't that much when we're so heavy and that's not even kill percent for her outside offstage kills. Also, Sheik is still really light and is tall for her weight, though I think her crouch is still low enough to duck under many of our moves (but is her Dtilt that good?).

 

[Claire Diviner]

i hate you

Keep in mind that was Red8's comment on Sheik, not mine, so do point your hatred towards the proper target. XD

 

[Clai]

Vs

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: Sheik can shut us down, Ftilt Juggle us, camp us a little,
and her speed + Grab Game is very effective Vs Ganon.
It's hard to land safe on the ground without her grabbing us again.

But, if we get a small tad of momentum, we can do pretty nasty things to her.

Red8: 10-90
Sheik will win. The only way you can win is if the sheik is kennispam and the Ganon is DLA (lul namesearch ****). It really is all about breaking the momentum, if we can get a little bit it usually equals a lot (a la all of our matchups >.>) Two best tips are to 1) always hang on the edge when she recovers, it forces a Vanish recovery which we can AD on stage -> punish, and 2) learn to DI ftilt. I talk about it in the annoying moves thread so check it out.

Sol Diviner: 0-100
Honestly, Sheik is a pain in the bearded a**! It's bad enough she has a deisel Ftilt juggle on Ganon, and worse that she can spam with her needles. What's more dooming is her DACUS, though it isn't the worst. I suppose the nails in the coffin would be her Chain Jacket glitch to edgeguard us (assuming they know how to perform it properly). The only way for us to win is to predict the hell out of her and punish all mistakes whilst being defensive, only going offensive when we're ready to gimp her recovery.

A2ZOMG: 5/95
Pick another character. Everything Sheik does just owns Ganon. She camps you well, she outspaces you solidly, her close up game is infinitely better (not helping that your grab range is crap), she combos you to ridiculously high damage really easily, and she also gimps you very effectively. To make things worse, she can often evade a lot of Ganon's high hitting moves by ducking or even Dash Attacking. This matchup is just beyond awful for Ganon.

Clai: lolololololrape @#!$@!$#@!
IC's Chain Grab? Nope. Olimar's camping? Not even close. This is Ganondorf's-total-absolute- worst matchup. Ganondorf has no answers to a Sheik player who knows how to camp efficiently and punish effectively. Sheik will spend her game running across the stage, using needles to throw Ganon off-balance, and when Ganon attempts to develop an offense, Sheik will use her jab and grab game to completely neutralize it. Sheik will know when to Ftilt you and when that happens expect a lot of damage. Afterwards, she'll take you offstange and proceed to gimp you with ease (just wait for Ganon to attack or use up-B and then punish him. It's stupid). If played correctly, Ganondorf will be incapable of obtaining any momentum- Sheik's tools are just too reliable to circumvent.

And when Sheik is done running around, she can just whip out the chain and stall you while you feel bad about using a character that has absolutely no options. In which case, you may just want to take the DQ and punch the player in the face.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The thing that makes Sheik so impossibly difficult for Ganon compared to anyone else is that you literally can't do a single safe thing against her. Not even conventional mobility is safe against her due to the threat of needle camping. Sure, jumping over needles can avoid them, except she has by far the best anti-air options in the game. She can just wait for you to land and let the Needles hit you then. And you can't challenge her run speed and insane vertical mobility as she combos you with aerials that autobait airdodges (as in if you airdodge as she does one aerial, you're probably still getting hit either way). And of course her tilts, crouch, and sliding shield are excellent options.

MK doesn't run Ganon over nearly as hard as Sheik does, and he doesn't create openings nearly as easily. Sheik by design just automatically forces Ganon to either shield and get pressured to death since he's too slow and lacks the grab range to do anything out of shield against Sheik, or to jump and get **** juggled due to her ability to both camp and consistently punish everything Ganon does on reaction.

It's really irrelevant to say that Ganon outprioritizes Sheik when she has the tools to feasibly prevent Ganon from ever sticking out a spacing tool viably. By either forcing Ganon into his shield or into jumping, Ganon can only be helplessly locked down in this matchup against a Sheik who understands Ganon's weaknesses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XesIFZdO1Sc <- this isn't the best example of how the matchup works, except the last stock I believe well represents how effectively Sheik just pressures Ganon to death.

 

[KenniSpam!]

As for the MK/Sheik discussion, I **** all ganons equally with both. Does that help?

edit. Ill just leave this here lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ5E0-rZYX8 lolmatch 1/2

edit 2. @general discussion-you guys realize that against nearly any player who knows the matchup and uses the top 75% of the roster, its unwinnable for ganon anyways

 

[DLA]

Troll alert

 

[Tonsana]

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: Sheik can shut us down, Ftilt Juggle us, camp us a little,
and her speed + Grab Game is very effective Vs Ganon.
It's hard to land safe on the ground without her grabbing us again.

But, if we get a small tad of momentum, we can do pretty nasty things to her.

Red8: 10-90
Sheik will win. The only way you can win is if the sheik is kennispam and the Ganon is DLA (lul namesearch ****). It really is all about breaking the momentum, if we can get a little bit it usually equals a lot (a la all of our matchups >.>) Two best tips are to 1) always hang on the edge when she recovers, it forces a Vanish recovery which we can AD on stage -> punish, and 2) learn to DI ftilt. I talk about it in the annoying moves thread so check it out.

Sol Diviner: 0-100
Honestly, Sheik is a pain in the bearded a**! It's bad enough she has a deisel Ftilt juggle on Ganon, and worse that she can spam with her needles. What's more dooming is her DACUS, though it isn't the worst. I suppose the nails in the coffin would be her Chain Jacket glitch to edgeguard us (assuming they know how to perform it properly). The only way for us to win is to predict the hell out of her and punish all mistakes whilst being defensive, only going offensive when we're ready to gimp her recovery.

A2ZOMG: 5/95
Pick another character. Everything Sheik does just owns Ganon. She camps you well, she outspaces you solidly, her close up game is infinitely better (not helping that your grab range is crap), she combos you to ridiculously high damage really easily, and she also gimps you very effectively. To make things worse, she can often evade a lot of Ganon's high hitting moves by ducking or even Dash Attacking. This matchup is just beyond awful for Ganon.

Clai: lolololololrape @#!$@!$#@!
IC's Chain Grab? Nope. Olimar's camping? Not even close. This is Ganondorf's-total-absolute- worst matchup. Ganondorf has no answers to a Sheik player who knows how to camp efficiently and punish effectively. Sheik will spend her game running across the stage, using needles to throw Ganon off-balance, and when Ganon attempts to develop an offense, Sheik will use her jab and grab game to completely neutralize it. Sheik will know when to Ftilt you and when that happens expect a lot of damage. Afterwards, she'll take you offstange and proceed to gimp you with ease (just wait for Ganon to attack or use up-B and then punish him. It's stupid). If played correctly, Ganondorf will be incapable of obtaining any momentum- Sheik's tools are just too reliable to circumvent.

And when Sheik is done running around, she can just whip out the chain and stall you while you feel bad about using a character that has absolutely no options. In which case, you may just want to take the DQ and punch the player in the face.

Tonsana: 15 - 85
If she starts camping with her chain just wizkick her....twice. Test it!

 

[KenniSpam!]

Troll alert

No trollmo.

 

[Z1GMA]

(I realized my ratio Vs Marth was 20 - 80, so I had to change this one to 15 - 85, lol)

Z1GMA: 15 - 85
Comment: Sheik can shut us down, Ftilt Juggle us, camp us a little,
and her speed + Grab Game is very effective Vs Ganon.
It's hard to land safe on the ground without her grabbing us again.

But, if we get a small tad of momentum, we can do pretty nasty things to her.

Red8: 10-90
Sheik will win. The only way you can win is if the sheik is kennispam and the Ganon is DLA (lul namesearch ****). It really is all about breaking the momentum, if we can get a little bit it usually equals a lot (a la all of our matchups >.>) Two best tips are to 1) always hang on the edge when she recovers, it forces a Vanish recovery which we can AD on stage -> punish, and 2) learn to DI ftilt. I talk about it in the annoying moves thread so check it out.

Sol Diviner: 0-100
Honestly, Sheik is a pain in the bearded a**! It's bad enough she has a deisel Ftilt juggle on Ganon, and worse that she can spam with her needles. What's more dooming is her DACUS, though it isn't the worst. I suppose the nails in the coffin would be her Chain Jacket glitch to edgeguard us (assuming they know how to perform it properly). The only way for us to win is to predict the hell out of her and punish all mistakes whilst being defensive, only going offensive when we're ready to gimp her recovery.

A2ZOMG: 5/95
Pick another character. Everything Sheik does just owns Ganon. She camps you well, she outspaces you solidly, her close up game is infinitely better (not helping that your grab range is crap), she combos you to ridiculously high damage really easily, and she also gimps you very effectively. To make things worse, she can often evade a lot of Ganon's high hitting moves by ducking or even Dash Attacking. This matchup is just beyond awful for Ganon.

Clai: lolololololrape @#!$@!$#@!
IC's Chain Grab? Nope. Olimar's camping? Not even close. This is Ganondorf's-total-absolute- worst matchup. Ganondorf has no answers to a Sheik player who knows how to camp efficiently and punish effectively. Sheik will spend her game running across the stage, using needles to throw Ganon off-balance, and when Ganon attempts to develop an offense, Sheik will use her jab and grab game to completely neutralize it. Sheik will know when to Ftilt you and when that happens expect a lot of damage. Afterwards, she'll take you offstange and proceed to gimp you with ease (just wait for Ganon to attack or use up-B and then punish him. It's stupid). If played correctly, Ganondorf will be incapable of obtaining any momentum- Sheik's tools are just too reliable to circumvent.

And when Sheik is done running around, she can just whip out the chain and stall you while you feel bad about using a character that has absolutely no options. In which case, you may just want to take the DQ and punch the player in the face.

Tonsana: 15 - 85
If she starts camping with her chain just wizkick her....twice. Test it!

 

[Claire Diviner]

It's a safe bet to say Sheik ***** Ganondorf. Of course, we still need more feedback from others, but still.

Strange, but why the hell does Zelda need Link then?! Well, it's not like Smash Bros. is canon, so in the Zelda games, Ganon is king.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If I designed Smash Bros, I would make the Zelda characters (not including Young/Toon Link!), Samus, and possibly Mewtwo top tier. Then I think pretty much everyone would be happy.

 

[DLA]

Mewtwo's top tier in bad-***-ery, and Samus is too IMO (in Melee, not Brawl).

 

[Heartstring]

melee samus is funny because some of here moves are just too good. killing missiles thanks much

 

[A2ZOMG]

Melee Samus is such a homo. You can't combo her, she never dies, and she almost never gets gimped. Except Ganon at least wrecks her **** in that game.

 

[Heartstring]

i dont play melee any good though, i find it hard enough to short hop, let alone l-cancel lol

 

[Ganonsburg]

It seems as though SSBB has the tier list approximately backwards. Probably because if Ganon were top tier, it would be that much less awesome to play as him. =( At least as it is, we're not gaying people to death and breaking the Ganon code.

 

[Z1GMA]

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 42 - 58
Comment: His jabs. Those... Jabs...
Every Ganon who has met a good Ike knows how much he/she depend on Jabs.
His Jab Cancel can do pretty nasty things to Ganon.

Let's say we swapped Jabs with Ike. We got his Jab - He got our Jab.
We'd get a Ganon 70 - 30 Ike, no doubt.

Anyway... Get him off the stage - He'll die.
Perferably with Ftilt.

Also, Ganon exel at Dtilt-distance in this MU.
It outranges Ike's Jabs, and it is faster than all of Ike's Long Range Attacks.
Just watch out so that you don't Dtilt his SH Nair.

 

[smashkng]

Vs

Z1GMA: 42 - 58
Comment: His jabs. Those... Jabs...
Every Ganon who has met a good Ike knows how much he/she depend on Jabs.
His Jab Cancel can do pretty nasty things to Ganon.

Let's say we swapped Jabs with Ike. We got his Jab - He got our Jab.
We'd get a Ganon 70 - 30 Ike, no doubt.

Anyway... Get him off the stage - He'll die.
Perferably with Ftilt.

Also, Ganon exel at Dtilt-distance in this MU.
It outranges Ike's Jabs, and it is faster than all of Ike's Long

SMASHKNG: 35/65
AVOID JAB AT ALL COSTS! Ganon is one of the easiest characters to jab cancel in the game normal jab canceling gives a total damage of 20% per jab but more if he locks which is possible on Ganon and his poor OoS doesn't help at all, it even ***** spot dodges. If you get hit by it, get an amazing SDI. Space Dtilts outside his jab range (don't know if he can shield grab it or not though). Don't get grabbed either at anything at mid percents from like 40 to 100%, the DA is completely unavoidable (or at higher percents TECH the Bthrow) and will put Ganon at a dangerously low angle, Ike does not have any trouble gimping Ganon like all other characters, while Ike is very risky to gimp for Ganon at most positions he falls offstage because of his Up b and if Ganon gets hit by it he doesn't have much chance of surviving, you must be careful offstage against Ike. He also has a Fthrow or Bthrow to Fthrow chain grab in walls and at high percents when you fall in the edge it's for Ganon to either choose to get hit by it or use his laggy air dodge and fall in a bad position. I think DA OoS can hit Ike from a well spaced Fair, but from Nair only powershielded. The Fair outranges Ganon in almost any way and can gimp well offstage with its range so he doesn't have to get any far offstage. Beware also retreating SH Bairs in the ground. While Ike is not so easy to tech chase because of his amazing rolls, having Gerudo Ftilt helps a lot in this MU, especially if you land it near the edge.

Would be 40/60 if Ike didn't have stuff on Ganon like Bthrow to DA combined with Ganon's recovery and jab canceling, but unfortunately he does.

Edit: Lol I put the order wrong next person who writes his MU opinion fix it please.

 

[Z1GMA]

Can't Ganon DI during the Bthrow, so that he's able to shield 1 or 2 frames earlier?
I think I've had some success with it.

 

[smashkng]

It has been proven to be true combo IIRC, it only helps at times.

 

[Z1GMA]

I was thinking DI'ing down, which should make you reach the ground 1 or 2 frames earlier.
Is down-DI + buffered shield tested?

 

[smashkng]

I'm pretty sure it works anyway if you buffer it, I've never heard anyone saying you can DI it anf I don't think DI affects this move much at all just like Falco's Dthrow at low percents and if you DI down it may mess up your DI to get hit at an even lower angle from a DA. I've seen San doing it on Ally's Snake who is heavier and falls even faster than Ganon.

 

[the king of murder]

Z1GMA: 42 - 58
Comment: His jabs. Those... Jabs...
Every Ganon who has met a good Ike knows how much he/she depend on Jabs.
His Jab Cancel can do pretty nasty things to Ganon.

Let's say we swapped Jabs with Ike. We got his Jab - He got our Jab.
We'd get a Ganon 70 - 30 Ike, no doubt.

Anyway... Get him off the stage - He'll die.
Perferably with Ftilt.

Also, Ganon exel at Dtilt-distance in this MU.
It outranges Ike's Jabs, and it is faster than all of Ike's Long

SMASHKNG: 65/35
AVOID JAB AT ALL COSTS! Ganon is one of the easiest characters to jab cancel in the game normal jab canceling gives a total damage of 20% per jab but more if he locks which is possible on Ganon and his poor OoS doesn't help at all, it even ***** spot dodges. If you get hit by it, get an amazing SDI. Space Dtilts outside his jab range (don't know if he can shield grab it or not though). Don't get grabbed either at anything at mid percents from like 40 to 100%, the DA is completely unavoidable (or at higher percents TECH the Bthrow) and will put Ganon at a dangerously low angle, Ike does not have any trouble gimping Ganon like all other characters, while Ike is very risky to gimp for Ganon at most positions he falls offstage because of his Up b and if Ganon gets hit by it he doesn't have much chance of surviving, you must be careful offstage against Ike. He also has a Fthrow or Bthrow to Fthrow chain grab in walls and at high percents when you fall in the edge it's for Ganon to either choose to get hit by it or use his laggy air dodge and fall in a bad position. I think DA OoS can hit Ike from a well spaced Fair, but from Nair only powershielded. The Fair outranges Ganon in almost any way and can gimp well offstage with its range so he doesn't have to get any far offstage. Beware also retreating SH Bairs in the ground. While Ike is not so easy to tech chase because of his amazing rolls, having Gerudo Ftilt helps a lot in this MU, especially if you land it near the edge.

the king of murder: 30-70
Jab is not the only thing that wrecks Ganon though it's one of the reasons why it's a bad MU for us. Ike can Jab Cancel in so many things and Ganon is espacially vulnerable to Jab Cancel because he has no aerial fast enough to interrupt it. He can Jab Cancel to Jab 1 again, U-tilt, B-air, grab ect... (I once Jab Canceled a Ganon to Jab 1 over and over again). Jab also eats Spot Dodges. Ike's N-air can lead into either a Jab, B-air, U-tilt or U-air all at low -mid percent, can be autocanceled and is good for frame trapping. Ganon has nothing that outranges Ike's F-air so if he spaces it well, you can't punish him. You never want Ike to be beneath you because U-air, U-tilt and U-smash **** your Air Dodges if timed right. F-throw is a CG on stages with big walls. B-throw-->buffered DA is guaranteed at 12%-95%. D-throw can lead into N-air or U-air at very low percent. Ike is not easy to gimp if Aether is spaced correctly and you will risk getting Aether spiked if you go off-stage with him. Ike, however, has decent edgeguard tools against Ganon like F-air, U-smash and walk-off D-air.

Try getting Ike above you and molest him with U-air or N-air. Avoid his U-smash and you can punish with Gerudo or a grab. Force Ike to use Quick Draw as a Recovery and you can take care of it with N-ar or U-air.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Z1GMA: 42 - 58
Comment: His jabs. Those... Jabs...
Every Ganon who has met a good Ike knows how much he/she depend on Jabs.
His Jab Cancel can do pretty nasty things to Ganon.

Let's say we swapped Jabs with Ike. We got his Jab - He got our Jab.
We'd get a Ganon 70 - 30 Ike, no doubt.

Anyway... Get him off the stage - He'll die.
Perferably with Ftilt.

Also, Ganon exel at Dtilt-distance in this MU.
It outranges Ike's Jabs, and it is faster than all of Ike's Long

SMASHKNG: 65/35
AVOID JAB AT ALL COSTS! Ganon is one of the easiest characters to jab cancel in the game normal jab canceling gives a total damage of 20% per jab but more if he locks which is possible on Ganon and his poor OoS doesn't help at all, it even ***** spot dodges. If you get hit by it, get an amazing SDI. Space Dtilts outside his jab range (don't know if he can shield grab it or not though). Don't get grabbed either at anything at mid percents from like 40 to 100%, the DA is completely unavoidable (or at higher percents TECH the Bthrow) and will put Ganon at a dangerously low angle, Ike does not have any trouble gimping Ganon like all other characters, while Ike is very risky to gimp for Ganon at most positions he falls offstage because of his Up b and if Ganon gets hit by it he doesn't have much chance of surviving, you must be careful offstage against Ike. He also has a Fthrow or Bthrow to Fthrow chain grab in walls and at high percents when you fall in the edge it's for Ganon to either choose to get hit by it or use his laggy air dodge and fall in a bad position. I think DA OoS can hit Ike from a well spaced Fair, but from Nair only powershielded. The Fair outranges Ganon in almost any way and can gimp well offstage with its range so he doesn't have to get any far offstage. Beware also retreating SH Bairs in the ground. While Ike is not so easy to tech chase because of his amazing rolls, having Gerudo Ftilt helps a lot in this MU, especially if you land it near the edge.

the king of murder: 30-70
Jab is not the only thing that wrecks Ganon though it's one of the reasons why it's a bad MU for us. Ike can Jab Cancel in so many things and Ganon is espacially vulnerable to Jab Cancel because he has no aerial fast enough to interrupt it. He can Jab Cancel to Jab 1 again, U-tilt, B-air, grab ect... (I once Jab Canceled a Ganon to Jab 1 over and over again). Jab also eats Spot Dodges. Ike's N-air can lead into either a Jab, B-air, U-tilt or U-air all at low -mid percent, can be autocanceled and is good for frame trapping. Ganon has nothing that outranges Ike's F-air so if he spaces it well, you can't punish him. You never want Ike to be beneath you because U-air, U-tilt and U-smash **** your Air Dodges if timed right. F-throw is a CG on stages with big walls. B-throw-->buffered DA is guaranteed at 12%-95%. D-throw can lead into N-air or U-air at very low percent. Ike is not easy to gimp if Aether is spaced correctly and you will risk getting Aether spiked if you go off-stage with him. Ike, however, has decent edgeguard tools against Ganon like F-air, U-smash and walk-off D-air.

Try getting Ike above you and molest him with U-air or N-air. Avoid his U-smash and you can punish with Gerudo or a grab. Force Ike to use Quick Draw as a Recovery and you can take care of it with N-ar or U-air.

A2ZOMG: 5/5
This matchup is so stupidly good for Ganon, it really upsets me when I look back at the times I know that simply playing smarter or knowing a simple trick would have won me this matchup. Ike's Jab is kinda annoying, but really isn't that much of a worry as long as you have good SDI. Also shieldgrabbing Ike's Jab REALLY helps in this matchup (time it right, you can basically grab his arm and grab him from twice your normal grab range), and throw followups are GREAT in this matchup.

Flame Choke is also stupidly good in this matchup. It's fairly easy to land because Ike sucks at landing and is slow, and you get like EVERYTHING out of choke on him that matters. D-tilt, F-tilt, and Dash attack. At low percents when you Flame Choke Ike, he should easily take like 40 damage from Flame Choke D-tilt resets or juggles as long as you make a good read. Then at moderate percents, get him offstage with F-tilt, edgeguard him with ledge invincibility abuse reverse U-air and he dies. Or alternatively you can U-tilt his Up-B if he's trying to sweetspot, or you can let Flame Choke Dash Attack kill him. Either way as long as your choke game is good and as long as you realize Ike's up-B is worse than yours and that you can punish his recovery HARD, you should at least have the advantage in scoring kills.

This matchup is just really really stupidly good for Ganon. You just need to be patient, DI well (don't be an idiot and DI away from B-throw -> DA), and know your choke followups and how to properly edgeguard. This matchup is very very winnable for Ganon.

 

[smashkng]

Lol A2Z as Ike I've never had any trouble at all shutting down Ganons, and as Ganon myself I've had problems even beating people who don't main him, his jab forces Ganon to stay away from close range for as long as possible, even with SDI (unless maybe if it is as good as Mr. Doom's) is actually still pretty hard to escape from and gimping Ganon is so easy. And stop saying you can dodge the Bthrow to DA, it only works 50% of the time at the very most if the Ike buffers it properly, which isn't hard at all. Play better Ikes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

smashkng, read my posts more carefully. You didn't even address a single point I listed.

My Ike is rather decent and I'm well aware of Ike's Jab and B-throw shenanigans, but does this stop Ganon from implementing his superior midrange game? Hell naw.

Also Ganon ***** Ike on grab and Flame Choke. And he definitely edgeguards Ike much better than the other way around.

I believe Ganon's advantages easily justify this matchup being even, just most Ganons play this matchup completely wrong.

 

[smashkng]

Well I said you massively underrated Ike's jab. And yes Ike's up b is FAR better than Ganon's, it has trascended priority, has enough hitstun to not get punished for landing it on Ganon unless he lands onstage (which he does not have to do). I think the only moves that can punish Ike on the ledge are DA and a perfectly spaced Dair (good luck timing it), the Fsmash doesn't outrange the Up b. Another thing to notice about Ike is that he's actually a pretty heavy character, lives about as long as Ganon with DI so you won't kill with DA until around 135%+ with good DI. The other problem are Nairs and Fairs like all of his aerials have trascended priority and having really long range (his Nair covers his entire body and has very little landing lag), Ganon getting largely outranged by a disjoint isn't good for him at all, and Ike has better mobility (especially in the air) than Ganon. Like I said before, Ike has a much easier time gimping Ganon than otherwise, sure Ganon can also gimp Ike but getting him there is actually very hard because of the Up b properties makes it extremely risky to try to get offstage with someone like Ganon most of the time.

I can't see this MU any close to even at all, Ike is better than Ganon in just about everything, even kill power wise Ganon doesn't really outmatch Ike, and Ike outranging Ganon with a disjoint really is a big factor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jabs are overrated in general. Good SDI really ruins a lot of Jab cancel shenanigans. Except for Snake's ******** Jab -> F-tilt combo basically. And Ike in particular doesn't really have the mixup options to make you think twice about SDIing mindlessly in anticipation of Jabs.

Ike's Up-B is worse than Ganon's. It appalls me that people don't know how to punish this crap recovery move.

Ganon's options for ****** Ike's Up-B:
Up-B grab
edgehog
if you edgehog slightly early, ledgedrop tipman U-air. It will beat his Up-B CLEANLY due to invul frames from the ledge.
Sourspot U-tilt

And yes Ike is heavy, but Ganon is heavier. You should generally survive to the same percents he does, but you set up kills MUCH better.

Plus Ganon has wizkick to punish failed juggle attempts and potentially shield poke. Ike has nothing of the sort to change his momentum while threatening to punish juggles.

 

[smashkng]

Jabs are overrated in general. Good SDI really ruins a lot of Jab cancel shenanigans. Except for Snake's ******** Jab -> F-tilt combo basically.

Ike's Up-B is worse than Ganon's. It appalls me that people don't know how to punish this crap recovery move.

Ganon's options for ****** Ike's Up-B:
Up-B grab
edgehog
if you edgehog slightly early, ledgedrop tipman U-air. It will beat his Up-B CLEANLY due to invul frames from the ledge.
Sourspot U-tilt

And yes Ike is heavy, but Ganon is heavier. You should generally survive to the same percents he does, but you set up kills MUCH better.

Plus Ganon has wizkick to punish failed juggle attempts. Ike has nothing of the sort to change his momentum while threatening to punish juggles.

Kill Ike can get: retreating SH Bair. This is a really safe option on shield, I don't remember getting punished OoS for hitting a shield with that. If Ike predicts a Wizkick, just Fair or Nair it will beat it or trade if really close. If you edge hog his Up b, he'll just land onstage. And if you hit him before he rises to catch the sword offstage with reverse Uair, he'll just SA it and you'll have a hard time getting onstage because of the RCO lag. You Utilt: just grab the ledge so it doesn't hit Ike with that 81 frame move.