Eldiran's PSAs 'n' Stuff: Newest - Zero 1.4

[Rykoshet]

Is it an all or nothing deal with the grounded shots? Can you only do 3 because it's using a prop projectile? If not, removing the second shot means that canceling the short hopped shot into a grounded shot would make for something someone could easily just power shield their way through and punish, the move is laggy enough on the ground that even if youre hit by the grounded shot I've had a CPU just run into me anyway. I'd give up all sorts of utility on the grounded shot if I gained mobility and melee string setups out of the short hopped neutral shot, in a heartbeat. The character isnt a potent camper but his projectiles afford utility that his ground game atm does not. (For example I know he's supposed to be unique but keeping link's old fsmash would have probably been very helpful as it gave immense shield push, killed at reasonable percents, had good horizontal range and wasnt too fast. Zero's current fsmash is slower than mario's fsmash with much less range than any move with its power).

I'm playing it in v/bbrawl but I also tested it out in plus, the plus system makes up for a lot of zero's otherwise lacking properties or otherwise evens the field with other characters.

 

[Rykoshet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCpdnYKPBFg

Just wanted to put up a vid to show what I mean. Despite being hit by the shots dk is hardly affected by it, he got smacked and went right after me at 0:24. It wouldnt disrupt opponents or lend to an extremely campy playstyle if the single shot descent worked like a short hop laser because the opponent isnt shut down in place like they are against falco. It takes all 3 shots to stop the opponent in their tracks and the only time a person is gonna fire off all 3 shots is if theyre standing, which is a risk in and of itself because all a person has to do is roll past it and zero's a sitting duck, which is a more than fine trade off. Single shot in the air = mobility, triple shot on ascent = walling but not super effective due to height, standing shots = high risk for high disruption. I'm actually fairly sure a single shot on descent has absolutely no flinch whatsoever.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I haven't tried him yet. I will do so later...
But I don't really like how you've based him on his MMZ Counter part... That makes him much less Melee-focused to begin with.

Just my 2 cents. I'll try him later. See ya.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Would anyone be working on a Brawl+ adaptation of Zero?

He'll need it to keep up with everyone else in B+. Falcon just slaps him around all day. XD

Also, I'm confused as to why you didn't have his Nair hit at least twice or more. Maybe with his current condition that would break it?

EDIT: Another thing. His smashes could use some animation fixing, do you think? Having that lag on the beginning of the actual smash attack is very bad, as most lag is created on the Startup of the animation, not the actual hit itself. It makes fast smashes seem very slow (or at least when they're done without charging).

I recommend turning down the lag on the actual smash and leaving the startup the same. If it's too fast, turn the lag up.

Same that goes with Geno too.

 

[Rykoshet]

I believe a brawl+ version is being tweaked by gh or gog, I dunno. It's up to eld i think.

 

[Tony_]

My personal bits.

Zero from X is purely a close combat fighter. His buster should only be used for keeping opponents away and help his mixup game. He should be able to combo very well too, and his specials are very poorly represented. If your using dashes for specials (they should never be specials to begin with, just make it a dash and his run his walk), use F-splasher from X5. It at least prevents him from being gimped.

His side special should be shipuuga, and his recovery should be his rising saber motion, none of this dashing bs. It doesn't even feel like I am playing Zero at all.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

It does feel like playing Zero, except this isn't strictly Zero from X. The overall mobility and some moves are much more reminiscent of the MMZ series, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Eldiran]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCpdnYKPBFg

Just wanted to put up a vid to show what I mean. Despite being hit by the shots dk is hardly affected by it, he got smacked and went right after me at 0:24. It wouldnt disrupt opponents or lend to an extremely campy playstyle if the single shot descent worked like a short hop laser because the opponent isnt shut down in place like they are against falco. It takes all 3 shots to stop the opponent in their tracks and the only time a person is gonna fire off all 3 shots is if theyre standing, which is a risk in and of itself because all a person has to do is roll past it and zero's a sitting duck, which is a more than fine trade off. Single shot in the air = mobility, triple shot on ascent = walling but not super effective due to height, standing shots = high risk for high disruption. I'm actually fairly sure a single shot on descent has absolutely no flinch whatsoever.

I don't mean to be insulting at all when I ask this, but do you know that you can charge the B while on the ground, and shield out of it to store it? I only ask because it seemed very odd that you never charged up a shot in that whole match. A charged shot should give the decent disruption you're seeking.

Anyway, I went with 3 shots as an homage to classic Megaman's shot limit.

Good video by the way. And, don't worry, even though I don't feel his buster needs any improvement, I am going to bolster his ground game (and air game) to make up for it.

I believe a brawl+ version is being tweaked by gh or gog, I dunno. It's up to eld i think.

Yep, I'm making a version for Brawl+, with testing and balancing done by GH.

I haven't tried him yet. I will do so later...
But I don't really like how you've based him on his MMZ Counter part... That makes him much less Melee-focused to begin with.

Don't worry -- as Ryko can attest, his ranged options are/will be subpar compared to his melee capabilities. The nature of CPUs, though, makes them ripe for exploiting with ranged attacks.

Zero from X is purely a close combat fighter. His buster should only be used for keeping opponents away and help his mixup game. He should be able to combo very well too, and his specials are very poorly represented. If your using dashes for specials (they should never be specials to begin with, just make it a dash and his run his walk), use F-splasher from X5. It at least prevents him from being gimped.

His side special should be shipuuga, and his recovery should be his rising saber motion, none of this dashing bs. It doesn't even feel like I am playing Zero at all.

...thanks... I didn't want to part too drastically from Smash norms, so I kept his regular dash animation normal. I went with the up-dash because it gave him a lot of maneuverability, which I wanted to be his schtick. Also I couldn't find an animation I thought good enough to use as an up+B. (I know he has the rising fire blade during his final smash, but I didn't think that looked nice enough as a staple move.) His buster is styled so that it is basically used as you say.

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

Some graphical lulz...
I got Zero in a Yoshi Egg.... the sword glow stuck out of the egg.

 

[Rykoshet]

I know I can charge the shot but rather than sitting there charging I could very well have thrown my shield boomerang in that time and achieved the same effect with as much damage all the while being able to move. Just saying the single shot isnt disruptive enough to worry about not being able to to respond to followups like standing triple shot. It'd be a good mobility damage builder but not a hard stopper while camping.

 

[Eldiran]

I know I can charge the shot but rather than sitting there charging I could very well habe thrown my shield boomerang in that time and achieved the same effect with as much damage all the while being able to move.

I suppose that's true enough. Well, at the very least after this discussion I can rest easy knowing I succeeded in trying to make neutral B not very useful

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

You get what I said, Eldiran? D:

EDIT: Lol @ Wall cling doneskis.

 

[Glick]

Amazing character. Seriously. I'm really loving it so far. I've heard some things about a plus version, but I can't find it on the first post. Can you give me a link, since I'm a plus only player

 

[FrozenHobo]

i love this character, but his wall cling is ridiculous. is it possible to make him only able to do it once or twice?

 

[Rykoshet]

Twice-3 times would be ideal tbh, hopefully not restoring unless you get hit or make it to the stage, as opposed to grabbing the ledge.

 

[[TSON]]

Best PSA hack since forever.
<333

SideB is really creative, I love it. Can't wait for the FULL Brawl+ versionnn <3

 

[Eldiran]

Thanks!

For those wanting it, here's the post with the latest downloads:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8731836&postcount=527

You get what I said, Eldiran? D:

EDIT: Lol @ Wall cling doneskis.

I did, but I neglected to mention it because I've already got plans to address that issue.

Regarding the wallclimb, is that usable for stalling or is it just a really crazy good recovery? 'Cause I'm cool with the latter.

 

[FrozenHobo]

you can stall like a G with that ledge cling.

 

[GHNeko]

I think Zero could use the B+ momentum from IAD'd aerials (SideB) in Brawl/BBrawl. xD

With no momentum from IAD, it ruins the potency of side B, as if you've Seen Zero's IAD into Nair is really good as it's pretty much unpunishable and opens up a world of pressure for Zero. :3

Also. god Nair has too much lag in BBrawl/Brawl omfg DX that's horrible.

 

[Sudai]

IAD? You're gonna get wtfpwn'd by my Zero in B+ when we play, Neko. Haha. IAD completely changes the game. :]

 

[GHNeko]

Dude. I got Eldiran to give Zero a DASH BUTTON. Not Side B, but a single button. Like in the games.

omfg IAD is amazing.

SH IAD FF Nair is like the most ******** thing I've seen.

And SHIAD FF Nair combos into Usmash at mid to low end ko percent range. It's so amazing. xD

It's like playing TvC in Smash. Except I cant Jump > IAD> DJ > IAD. I can only go up to DJ. >:

SH IAD Dair can combo into Usmash if you land the Dair right before you reach them so the shockwave sends up.

AND

SHIAD Nair can combo into a grab at low - mid percents and with reduced cool down on Dthrow, you can Dthrow > Grounded Dash > Something. like srsly.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

A Dash button? ****.
If there was some kind of "Awesome Level" button, you'd be worse than that kid in the "Black or White" video. This is way past "Are you nuts?" territory.

The rest of your post reads like something straight out of dustloop and I love it.

 

[GHNeko]

Wait. What is that first statement supposed to mean? D:!!

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I'm just amazed by how far you're taking it to make Zero even more unique, I expected you to merely buff him to keep up with B+ standards.

Anyway, what did you do to Side B since the dash is now mapped somewhere else?

 

[GHNeko]

Basically, Utaunt = Side B now. So what I am personally going to do is slap the "Unrestricted Control Mapping" code into my Text File and map Utaunt to Y (i'd use X because X is what I use to Dash in TvC and Circle = Dash in MMX4+ on PS but meh.

Also. Zero can now Cancel his Side B in air and on ground by simply pressing down, giving him more IAD shenanigans and mental gaemz. And when you add in B+ momentum, you've got the most ridiculous side B platform shenanigans you will ever see. I can dash off the bottom right platform and grab a character on the left in like a second with fast enough fingers. (Dash Off Platform > Press down to cancel and fall with momentum > land > grab)

Also, SH IAD into Cancel than FF onto the stage > Ground move. Also makes grabbing the ledge a lot easier.

I can IAD towards teh stage and cancel it and fall right onto the ledge.

:3

EDIT: Also, Zero can get a small vertical boost if you cancel IAD at start up with down. So basically if you do QCD/632 IAD, you cancel the IAD while getting a vertical momentum boost. And you still have your Double Jump and Up B, so you can chase up high and recover even better now vertical wise. And even more IAD shenanigans. Now on a vertical level.

EDIT2: Using a fully charged Dsmash, plus CIAD (Canceled IAD) boost, plus DJ, plus Up B, can probably get you to the top of the screen off smashville.

 

[Rykoshet]

I think Zero could use the B+ momentum from IAD'd aerials (SideB) in Brawl/BBrawl. xD

With no momentum from IAD, it ruins the potency of side B, as if you've Seen Zero's IAD into Nair is really good as it's pretty much unpunishable and opens up a world of pressure for Zero. :3

Also. god Nair has too much lag in BBrawl/Brawl omfg DX that's horrible.

all of this: 100% true

 

[phantomphungus]

Nice video Neko. You should download this zip file and use the costume and FitLinkMotionEtc.pac within. That should make it look nicer. http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ymgmln0jlrm

Don't use the moveset inside though, that's v1.0 in there.

I think more testing is in order before I release a new version. (Especially for v/BBrawl. Seems like almost nobody plays that around here.)

*raises hand* I DO! :D

 

[GHNeko]

Stop being so conservative, Eldiran. If you over shoot something. You can always fix it up. Trial and error. No one gets it right on the first try. etc etc.

<3

 

[Rykoshet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD6Kf3YFQcs

more vbrawl stuff

On another note, a missed nair left me open for an fsmash on reaction, just saying/

 

[Eldiran]

you can stall like a G with that ledge cling.

Hmm. I really kind of expect he'd be very vulnerable when trying that. After all, you need to land on the ground to restore your walljumps, not just grab the ledge.

As for all this talk of transferring B+ momentum to vBrawl... I'm totally doing that. Not reducing Nair's lag, though, otherwise it'd be super absurd. In v/BBrawl IAD -> Nair is still amazing, and can seemingly combo into utilt on rare occasions. (Anything comboing in vBrawl is impressive to me.)

*raises hand* I DO! :D

Thankfully. But you're, like, just about the only one.

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

Thankfully. But you're, like, just about the only one.

Ahem. >_>

But, I seriously laughed once I got Zero in an egg and there was this green glow coming out of the side of it.

 

[Rykoshet]

As for all this talk of transferring B+ momentum to vBrawl... I'm totally doing that. Not reducing Nair's lag, though

The move, as it stands, is laggier than ike's fair on landing. It's not even remotely close to the timing of any nair in the game and it's never going to KO someone, honestly dude this isnt a criticism but you're being stubborn without actually just seeing how it would be otherwise. The move would be no more broken than any other nair in the game, that's honest truth, making it extra laggy for no reason is silly.

 

[GHNeko]

And considering that it comes out on frame 11 makes the move risky to use with all that lag. xD

 

[Rykoshet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvWHJNqoMDU#t=2m08s

Goes right to the time stamp when I said my opponent fsmashed me on reaction for missing a nair. Just saying, that's kind of nuts.

 

[Eldiran]

The move, as it stands, is laggier than ike's fair on landing. It's not even remotely close to the timing of any nair in the game and it's never going to KO someone, honestly dude this isnt a criticism but you're being stubborn without actually just seeing how it would be otherwise. The move would be no more broken than any other nair in the game, that's honest truth, making it extra laggy for no reason is silly.

Actually, thanks to the magic of PSA, I can look it up and find that Ike's fair is exactly 1 laggier than Zero's nair. (1 what? I'm not sure.)

Regardless, I understand your concern. If I weren't already making changes that severely improve nair's use, (among improving lots of other things about Zero) then I'd probably implement your suggestion.

Thanks for uploading all these good matches by the way. (Impressive video quality.)

Ahem. >_>

But, I seriously laughed once I got Zero in an egg and there was this green glow coming out of the side of it.

Woo! That's at least two, and then probably Rykoshet.

Heheh, yeah, I made that by accident and decided it was amusing enough to not bother taking out.

 

[xDD-Master]

Woo! That's at least two, and then probably Rykoshet.

You forgot me :O

I'm also vBrawl tester >_<

 

[ChronicleX]

Yo first things first Zero is awesome in both looks and movesets. I am impressed at how authentic he feels to use, it is not what I was expecting.

Second is a suggestion. At the moment you can use 1 Up B and 1 Side B in the air. Why not make it so you can use 1 of each or 2 Side B's before landing. It would make him feel alot more fluid and would allow him to play some more mindgames. If using 2 Side B in the same direction is too powerful then IMO allow him to Cancel a Side B into a Side B in the opposite direction in the air (IE Dash backwards).

Keep up the good work.

 

[zephyrnereus]

Second is a suggestion. At the moment you can use 1 Up B and 1 Side B in the air. Why not make it so you can use 1 of each or 2 Side B's before landing. It would make him feel alot more fluid and would allow him to play some more mindgames. If using 2 Side B in the same direction is too powerful then IMO allow him to Cancel a Side B into a Side B in the opposite direction in the air (IE Dash backwards).

Keep up the good work.

Zero can change the direction he's facing with upB, so he'd still be able to dash "forward"(dash forward towards stage, upB, switch direction, dash backwards towards stage). I'd say for recovery, he needs his sideB restored after getting hit (at least in Brawl+). zero gets easily gimped and hitstun doesnt help him get closer to the edge.

 

[ChronicleX]

Zero can change the direction he's facing with upB, so he'd still be able to dash "forward". I'd say for recovery, he needs his sideB restored after getting hit (at least in Brawl+). zero gets easily gimped and hitstun doesnt help him get closer to the edge.

You misunderstand me. Using Side-B changes your direction regardless, what I was suggesting was a way to dash in and out or fake a dash in by dashing backwards straight after as Zero cannot Dash Dance due to his slow speed outside of using Side-B and this would make up for that.

And I agree with Zero being gimped easily, I play Brawl+ also. both B moves should be restored on hit.

 

[GHNeko]

You can change zero's direction instantly after using side B by SideBing in the direction you want to face. :3