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Emil Castagnier/Ratatosk V3.0.0-0 Back in Progress (Again) (NEWS!)
- Thread starter ANLGC
- Start date
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
Okay, we NEED to decide on a finalized or semi-finalized moveset.
And are we playing as Emil or Ratatosk? (Just in case i need to change the stock icons.)
And are we playing as Emil or Ratatosk? (Just in case i need to change the stock icons.)
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
^ Phew. Now I don't have to change anything!
Judas
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 106
Ok. Here we go. I will now explain to all people that are active on this topic, and especially the most important members of this team, why the moveset made by Royal Blade should never be put in the Emil that is going to be made for Brawl! I will try to be as objective as possible, and what will shows this is that I will comment what suggests the moveset when we read it, for example, the absence of information about knockback among the most important moves so which are not taunts means to me no knockback, because there are some of these moves which have knockbacks, so it means you already chose the moves which will have knockback, and which moves which won't have knockback. And of course, as Emil is a Tales of character, there will be some parallels with Tales of. Of course, I recommend all people that read this topic to read all the post, even if it is very long.
But before, I have a request, it would be better to edit the first page, to see what glitches are left to remove if they are still glitches. For example, does this Emil makes the game freeze if he is thrown or uses his shield? It would be good to know that I think, on this topic. And I would say that if there are still some glitches like that, all the immediate active work on Emil should be placed to remove these annoying glitches. I hope it is possible to play an Emil without major glitches, and I mean by that, a special circumstance that makes the game freeze. Of course, take your time to remove all of them.
Now, back on the moveset of Royal Blade. I will begin speaking of general things, then, if necessary I will speak of each movement individually.
When we read all the moveset, there is one thing that is seen immediately, even if this moveset is not completed, it is really short.
The fact that this moveset is short is really a problem, I mean we don't need a moveset that takes one entire page of this forum, especially when it is not complete, but it is really not enough detailed. One thing that shows that it is not enough detailed at all, we don't even know what style of gameplay you imagine for Emil. We don't know if you want to make him light, middle weighted, how fast he is etc. There is absolutely no concept behind him according your moveset, and this is a great problem, because before making moves, this is the very first thing to wonder, and even if you have an incomplete moveset, this is something absolutely necessary to put. Because a moveset for a smash bros character is not only the moves he can make, it is also a way of playing. We don't even know for sure, for some attacks, what knockback they have, if they have knockback of course. And in smash bros, it is really important to know these types of information.
Second thing that is seen when we read all the moveset, it is that you didn't searched at all to put all Emil artes that you could put over his attacks. And the result is that we have 6 basics attacks, and I exclude Ex attack (which is in fact Ex attack 1) because it is no basic according to me. And the neutral aerial is excluded too, because to me it is not so basic, but for this one I will explain why when I will talk about this attack. I'm fully aware of the fact that we can't put all Emil's artes if he is put on Super Smash Bros Brawl, but we're talking of a Tales of character. In Tales of, what makes the true difference between characters when they fight, are their artes, the artes are the really most important thing of a Tales of character, this is why even in Brawl, we have to put all artes we can, keeping in mind that we are in brawl, so these artes we put have to fit movements of brawl. Of course, basic attacls are important, but what do you use the most in Tales of? The basic attacks? Or the artes? Besides, in Tales of, basic attacks, for Emil represent at maximum 1/9 of all his attacks, but in the moveset, this number is at around 3/9, it is really too much! Besides, there are even some artes that could easily have been put in this moveset, and you preferred putting basic attacks over these artes! For example, it would have been really easy to put the arte savage reaper, you could have easily put it as down tilt, or forward tilt. This example alone, shows that your moveset, is really contradictory with the philosophy of Tales of, and this is very important to keep the philosophy of the game from where a character come, especially when it is really easy like this!
There are also some huge incoherences. But for these incoherences, I won't talk about them now, I will come back to them when I will talk about movements individually. What I can say already, is that these incoherences touches both Brawl and Tos2. There is only one incoherence that I will talk immediately, it is a total contradiction between Emil characteristics in Tos2 and in this moveset. Emil is a character who is good in air, much more than other characters like Marta for example. But, it seems it is not the case in this moveset, and this is truly a real problem... I mean, someone in Brawl who is good in air can easily come back on the battlefield. But with this moveset for Emil, it is absolutely not the case. I will come back on this later and explain myself more in details when I will talk about Emil's way to come back.
The last thing I would say that is general, is that this moveset is really a problem in term of animations. By reading all the topic, it seemed the animator Fliptocat, doesn't have all the animations, correct me if I'm wrong. When a moveset is made, it is always much much easier to have a video as a reference for the animations. But, with all these basics movements, it will probably be really hard to find a video with all these animations. It is already hard to find a video of all his artes, you're forced to use some videos that shows different artes in each videos, so for the basic attacks it will probably be even harder... And it is harder with the description to figure out what to do...
It was the last thing in general that I had to say; now, I will talk about each movements individually, if it is necessary of course.
Neutral attack: Two slashes? Here is a huge incoherence. From the Tales of point of view, Tales of characters who make only two hits when they press A numerous times when they appear and have no specifics skills equiped are characters that are rather slow, or at least wields weapons that deal huge damages but have a rather slow to hit the opponent, like for example Karol's hammer in Tales of Vesperia, or if you prefer, Presea's axe. When Emil fights, and by that I mean his true fighting style so with his clothes he has on the first page, he doesn't do two slashes, but three... If it was three slashes, it would fit perfectly I think, but two is really bad.
Dash attack: A forward thrust? It would need some descriptions. You mean he stops moving then make a thrust? Because dash attacks in brawl don't work like this, the characters don't stop moving when they dash attack... And with the way he dashes, he can't make a thrust without stopping himself to run...
Forward Tilt: A kick spin? Hum, you used the term spin. Does it mean with his kick he makes a circular horizontal kick that hits both behind him and forward him. Because Emil doesn't do that. And if you wonder why I say this, this is because the term spin means to me that he makes a turn at 360 degree. Oh, and a basic attack that could have easily been replaced by an arte.
Up tilt: An upward slash? Hum, again what upward slash are you talking about? I don't really remember Emil doing a simple upward slash in the game for example like the way Marth does, it means attacking directly above him and doing a arc of circle above him. I know he can make a slash where he moves the sword above him, but I don't think it is this movement that you're talking about, because, this slash is not above him, it is in front of him, and it can't attack people who are above Emil effectively, it doesn't make an arc of circle above him. It can't be the slash he makes when you press A with the stick up too, because it is an attack that attack in front of Emil too, not above him. And an up tilt normally should attack above Emil... But, honestly, I don't see how Emil can do this with all the slashes he has in the game. And it is totally logic, because it is rather rare to have ennemies that stay all the time above you in Tos2. If Emil didn't have a single move where he could attack an opponent above him, of course, it would have to be created. But it is not the case, there is a move where Emil can attack an opponent who is above him. I let you find what it is. Again, a basic attack that could have easily been avoided, and the worse, because I have not finished with it!
Still about this upward slash, how a basic attack for Emil, can have a moderate knockback? From what I read, and especially from the logic of a character who played Emil in Tales of, it has more knockback than at least some of your smashes if it is not all the smashes as for now the absence of information about the knockbacks of the smashes say they don't eject! This is really surprising! It has more knockback than your Side Smash, and it is normal, because as the side smash is Blade Fury, normally it has no knockback, the logic wants this move not to have knockback. But Blade Fury is an arte, a base arte but still, a merely basic attack which makes one hit, all the hits it should make in fact, can't be more powerful than an arte which makes all his hits, in term of damages inflicted, and even in term of knockback, for a character like Emil!
Down Tilt: Ravaging tiger. A tilt that involves a jump. It is really rare to see tilts that involve jump for non hacked characters, if I'm not wrong, no character has a jumping move as a tilt, but to me it is not a problem at all. The most annoying problem is the move itself. It has 2 hits, and this is the second hit that is a killing move. I said this move is a jumping move, and besides, a tilt. It means, you can only do this in ground. So it means most of the time, the opponent will be ejected down by the second hit, but will not die, as this move cannot be done in air, so it means there is floor below the ennemy hit by this attack. So most of the time, the killing power of this move is totally non existent. I suppose you made this attack in order to have a meteor smash, but as it is a tilt, it is truly ineffective. So this move is totally useless most of the times if we talk about killing.
Side Smash: Blade Fury. A base arte as a smash? What appears from the beginning when we see the name of this attack is that if there are arcane artes among smashes, the powers will be really inegal... Besides, the logic wants this attack to have no knockback, as it is a move used to inflict damages. I know there are characters who have smashes used mainly to inflict damages and not to eject so maybe it is the idea behind this smash. It is a way to do a character, like Sheik for example.
Up smash: Light spear cannon. An arcane arte. This is getting bad I will say you why but a little later. The up smash idea for light spear cannon is not a bad idea, but it should be noted that it is a little particular, as it only attacks opponents in front of Emil following an angle of 45 degree in the air, and opponents in front of him. It is not a problem, because some characters have up smash that attacks people in front of them but send them in the air. And this is the case of this smash so no problem on this side. But the most annoying problem with this move, is that it is absolutely not a killing move, this is what you says because there is absolutely no precision about the knockback for this move, so it is equivalent as zero knockback. For an arcane arte like this, it is strange, but still it is a way to do like the Up smash of Samus which is used to inflict damages.
Down Smash: Ex attack. This is really bad. Just wait for the explanation of why I say this, you will have it after I finish talking about this attack. So, I will rename this attack, it is Ex attack 1, because in the game there are two Ex attacks, one in ground and one in air, and we can see the differences by their number. I will be honest, I absolutely hate this move, in the game Tos2, and I don't use it. But I said I will be objective so don't worry about this, I will keep my promise.
So, this move is not so well known, this is not a move that we see so often, but still it is a good idea to think about putting it in the moveset. But, here, I can already say that it was a really bad idea. This movement is a little delayed, it takes more time to hit the opponent than Blade Fury and Light spear cannon. And normally it makes only one hit. Ex attacks are a little more powerful than an hit of a basic attack, but are less powerful than artes. So, this movement takes more time to hit than the other smashes, and besides, makes only one hit. So it is much less powerful. And besides, most of the down smashes hit both behind and forward you. It is not an absolute case, for example Lucas doesn't follow this logic. But, Emil can hit both behind him and forward him, there are moves that allow this, even if he has to jump, so it could have been an other idea as a down smash. But still, a down smash that hits only forward Emil, this is also a way to do.
Now, I will make a little synthesis of the smashes, because it needs one because there is something which is really bad. The smashes involve one base arte, one arcane arte, and one attack that is between basic and arte. When we read this, there is something to be afraid, that the smashes are absolutely not united at all. And this is really the case! I know the smashes for a character can't inflict the same amount of damages, but still, all the smashes inflicts damage which amounts are a rather similar, of course there are differences between the amounts, but you will never see a character with a smash that inflicts 10% of damages and an other smash that inflicts 30% of damages. (imagining these two smashes have all their hits that are successful) But, by doing a mixage of arcane artes and base arte, and a nearly basic attack, this is what happened. I know some smashes can be more useful in terms of inflicted damages than other, but there will never be differences like that. You can't make an attack like Ex attack 1, making damage at least a little similar to Blade Fury. It is completely impossible!
And, an other problem, is that smashes, at least in 99% of the time, are used to eject opponents with more or less efficience, but there is absolutely no smash that can eject in this moveset. It is what the absence of informations on knockback suggest, as I said you put movements that have knockback, so it means you already thought about which movement have or not have knockback. So, to an objective point of view, this absence means no knockback, and for smashes, having absolutely no knockback, at least for one, is very rare, and difficult. Maybe the moves with knockback should be aerials instead of smashes, it can be a way to play, but, I don't recall of any character that ABSOLUTELY can't eject with the smashes. Even Zero Suit Samus who doesn't have a truly finishing move can eject with at least one smash, even if it is not so effective.
Now, about the aerials.
Neutral aerial: What is this move? Emil doesn't do something like this in the game if I recall correctly. And how does he spin? Does he spins horizontally, or vertically? Because if it his vertically, then why didn't you put the true name of this attack? If he spins vertically, it is the tempest move, but as he doesn't learn this base arte, we can say that it is the final movement of Heavenly Tempest. The fact that he makes a spinning move as a neutral aerial doesn't disturb me at all, it is a way to do, and a way that is used by certain characters. Even if Emil doesn't learn this as a separate arte, it is not a problem, he proved in the game that he can use Tempest move even if there are things added, so we can use the part Tempest. But if it is truly Tempest, I think the number of hits is not correct.
Forward aerial: Emil slashes upward and his anti air attack? What is this move that you're talking about? I don't see what it is. What I'm sure of at least is that it is a basic attack.
Up aerial: A huge incoherence. Heavenly Tempest when used in air doesn't do rising slashes. And if it did, as an aerial movement, it would be probably a cheat movement. And besides, how is it possible to put heavenly tempest as an Up aerial while this move in air doesn't do any damages above Emil, excepted when he turns, but if an opponent is above Emil, he has enough time to hit Emil as he can't be touched by the two first movements. This is an arcane arte so this is the most powerful attack.
Back aerial: Hum, Emil kicks behind him, I know he is a mobile character in air, but I don't remember if he does something like this in the game in air, and again there is no information, for example of the speed of a movement like that, and it would probably have been necessary because obviously he can't make a kick like Snake, and it can't have very good range like him, and besides, I wonder if it will be easy to make an animation like this directly behind him with his kick. I can be wrong of course, but I have great doubts. Oh, and it can't be very powerful because it is a basic attack, and besides, it should be really slow because he needs to position his foot, then make the movement. A move with his sword would probably have been better, it would be less slow, because at least, he doesn't have to position his sword, he can execute immediately the move with his sword. Anyway, back aerial for Tales of characters most of the times are hard to do.
Down aerial: Havoc strike? Another huge incoherence. And this time it is an incoherence in Brawl. Down aerials are used to attack those who are below you, directly below you, so it means you can fall on them if you don't attack. If Havoc strike is used as a down aerial, you can't attack at all people who are directly below you, but this is the role of a down aerial. So this move has nothing to do as a down aerial.
A synthesis about aerials is required. The aerials move are really inegal, but this time, it is not a true problem, aerials moves can be very inegal in term of damages, and knockback too. Wario is a good exemple of this I think. But, there is absolutely, and again, no aerial that can be used to eject, still because of the same problem. Or, I don't remember any character who have at least one aerial move which doesn't eject, as low as the knockback is. There is also a mix of basic attacks, base arte and arcane. This time, I don't think it is a true problem, because of what I just said, aerials can be really inegal in term of damages. But they are some things that are really a problem in addition with what I said. First of all, as I said, some attacks are not placed correctly. It can easily be corrected, but it is still a great incoherence that a Tales of and simultaneously a Brawl player will never allow because these attacks as they are placed are truly not adapted to Brawl. Secondly, Emil doesn't have any meteor smash, it is a choice, but it is a little disappointing because Emil can really have one. Thirdly, and the most annoying, we can say that Emil is not really so good in air than how he is in TOS2. And this is the most annoying problem, with two basic attacks, and I recall basic attacks are the weakest attack Emil can do, it seriously makes him less effective in air. The lack of a meteor smash too. The lack of a move that hits opponent directly below Emil as a down aerial too. the lack of a move that hits opponent directly and immediately above Emil as an up aerial move too. The fact that no one aerial can eject because of what I said numerous times too. So aerials are really not good.
Now for the B moves.
Neutral B: Raining Fang: I have nothing to say about it.
Side B: Demon Fang: This attack is forced to be in Emil's moveset, but putting it as a side B means one recovery move down. This is a problem as Emil is mobile in air. Unless one recovery movement is put as a down B, it is possible Zero Suit Samus works like this.
Up B: Raging Heaven: Surely one of the worse attacks in this moveset. You put a meteor smash on a recovery move. It has the same defaults as Ravaging Tiger, and even some others. As it is the only recovery move of the moveset, and with the architecture of this move, we can guess that after this attack you're put in helpless mode, it is the logic conclusion because obviously you can't use this movement two times in a raw. If you use it to recover, with the architecture of the movement, you will be able to come back vertically, only vertically, these two things are absolutely contradictory with Emil's air mobility. And an Up B is not a movement with the main role to kill, it can have killing power of course, but putting a meteor smash on a move like this it is completely idiot. And if we give this move the same effect than Marth's Up B, and by this I mean that Emil would move a forward when he does the initial slash, if you're on ground, it would be idiot too, because if you're at an extremity of the battlefield, you do this, you can hit someone if you have the true right timing, so it is hard but it is not a problem because making a meteor smash is hard some times, but you're put in helpless mode and as you moved forward, you quit the battlefield, so it means you have a probability of suicide yourself. This is why this move, in all his aspects is one of the worse attacks in this moveset. This is mainly because you wanted the Up B as a killing move, but these types of moves don't exist mainly in order to do that, especially when they put in helpless mode.
Down B: Sword rain alpha: Ah. Very funny. An only grounded movement. It is really strange, I recall that you were complaining about Blade Fury that was not usable in air in Barbatos's moveset, but in fact you imagined a moveset with a B movement that can't be used in air too. How ironic, I thought you would show the example to follow, but I'm very disappointed in fact. I have nothing other to say about this movement.
So, I'm going to conclude. This moveset is really bad, really bad thought, really not enough precise, even if it is incomplete, it really doesn't fit both Emil's characteristics and Brawl. This moveset was not enough worked, if it was worked enough, there wouldn't be at least all these huge incoherences! And what is the worse is to see a basic attack stronger than an arte. And the last slash is that Emil has only two killing moves, with one nearly totally unusable. And besides, what pains too is the idea you have about the elemental attacks. Why use a combination of buttons in order to choose what attack will be used? They will always be used over the standards because they have the same properties, they are not slower, they have the same speed, are stronger and may have more knockback, in an appropriate moveset of course, excepted Demon fang maybe, as it is no longer a projectile in elemental this is the only move that will use the two versions. And what is too bad too, about the elementals attacks is that only twice of these attacks are on this moveset, there are in total 8 movements that can be changed to elemental, in this moveset there are only 4 of these movements. You read well, 4, because Havoc Strike is unusable at 90% with the state of your moveset, because to attack someone in air, it is really rare to see someone below you at 45 degree. Fortunately, the Final Smash is not here. I'm pessimist, it is true, but with a moveset like this, it is really difficult to think that the Final Smash can be good. Especially with the suggestions that were made to turn Emil with green eyes in Red eyes only for the Final Smash. An abomination because it would mean Emil can switch mode when he's fighting, when he can make mystic artes, when he's fighting along with his monsters, a better abomination considered the scenario of the game when you control Emil green eyed on the fights.
To the members of the team who will work on animations of this Psa, I let you decide what you want, but I really hope that you will make the right choice!
About these stock icons, I have nothing to say, they are really good. But one thing that is too bad, is that I don't know a lot of created characters like this who have stocks icons like this, it would be something that we should see more often.
Oh, and a last thing. Do you plan to put Emil's true sword instead of this Mythril Sword? The true sword of Emil is called the long sword, it is the fourth brres in the weapons if I recall correctly.
But before, I have a request, it would be better to edit the first page, to see what glitches are left to remove if they are still glitches. For example, does this Emil makes the game freeze if he is thrown or uses his shield? It would be good to know that I think, on this topic. And I would say that if there are still some glitches like that, all the immediate active work on Emil should be placed to remove these annoying glitches. I hope it is possible to play an Emil without major glitches, and I mean by that, a special circumstance that makes the game freeze. Of course, take your time to remove all of them.
Now, back on the moveset of Royal Blade. I will begin speaking of general things, then, if necessary I will speak of each movement individually.
When we read all the moveset, there is one thing that is seen immediately, even if this moveset is not completed, it is really short.
The fact that this moveset is short is really a problem, I mean we don't need a moveset that takes one entire page of this forum, especially when it is not complete, but it is really not enough detailed. One thing that shows that it is not enough detailed at all, we don't even know what style of gameplay you imagine for Emil. We don't know if you want to make him light, middle weighted, how fast he is etc. There is absolutely no concept behind him according your moveset, and this is a great problem, because before making moves, this is the very first thing to wonder, and even if you have an incomplete moveset, this is something absolutely necessary to put. Because a moveset for a smash bros character is not only the moves he can make, it is also a way of playing. We don't even know for sure, for some attacks, what knockback they have, if they have knockback of course. And in smash bros, it is really important to know these types of information.
Second thing that is seen when we read all the moveset, it is that you didn't searched at all to put all Emil artes that you could put over his attacks. And the result is that we have 6 basics attacks, and I exclude Ex attack (which is in fact Ex attack 1) because it is no basic according to me. And the neutral aerial is excluded too, because to me it is not so basic, but for this one I will explain why when I will talk about this attack. I'm fully aware of the fact that we can't put all Emil's artes if he is put on Super Smash Bros Brawl, but we're talking of a Tales of character. In Tales of, what makes the true difference between characters when they fight, are their artes, the artes are the really most important thing of a Tales of character, this is why even in Brawl, we have to put all artes we can, keeping in mind that we are in brawl, so these artes we put have to fit movements of brawl. Of course, basic attacls are important, but what do you use the most in Tales of? The basic attacks? Or the artes? Besides, in Tales of, basic attacks, for Emil represent at maximum 1/9 of all his attacks, but in the moveset, this number is at around 3/9, it is really too much! Besides, there are even some artes that could easily have been put in this moveset, and you preferred putting basic attacks over these artes! For example, it would have been really easy to put the arte savage reaper, you could have easily put it as down tilt, or forward tilt. This example alone, shows that your moveset, is really contradictory with the philosophy of Tales of, and this is very important to keep the philosophy of the game from where a character come, especially when it is really easy like this!
There are also some huge incoherences. But for these incoherences, I won't talk about them now, I will come back to them when I will talk about movements individually. What I can say already, is that these incoherences touches both Brawl and Tos2. There is only one incoherence that I will talk immediately, it is a total contradiction between Emil characteristics in Tos2 and in this moveset. Emil is a character who is good in air, much more than other characters like Marta for example. But, it seems it is not the case in this moveset, and this is truly a real problem... I mean, someone in Brawl who is good in air can easily come back on the battlefield. But with this moveset for Emil, it is absolutely not the case. I will come back on this later and explain myself more in details when I will talk about Emil's way to come back.
The last thing I would say that is general, is that this moveset is really a problem in term of animations. By reading all the topic, it seemed the animator Fliptocat, doesn't have all the animations, correct me if I'm wrong. When a moveset is made, it is always much much easier to have a video as a reference for the animations. But, with all these basics movements, it will probably be really hard to find a video with all these animations. It is already hard to find a video of all his artes, you're forced to use some videos that shows different artes in each videos, so for the basic attacks it will probably be even harder... And it is harder with the description to figure out what to do...
It was the last thing in general that I had to say; now, I will talk about each movements individually, if it is necessary of course.
Neutral attack: Two slashes? Here is a huge incoherence. From the Tales of point of view, Tales of characters who make only two hits when they press A numerous times when they appear and have no specifics skills equiped are characters that are rather slow, or at least wields weapons that deal huge damages but have a rather slow to hit the opponent, like for example Karol's hammer in Tales of Vesperia, or if you prefer, Presea's axe. When Emil fights, and by that I mean his true fighting style so with his clothes he has on the first page, he doesn't do two slashes, but three... If it was three slashes, it would fit perfectly I think, but two is really bad.
Dash attack: A forward thrust? It would need some descriptions. You mean he stops moving then make a thrust? Because dash attacks in brawl don't work like this, the characters don't stop moving when they dash attack... And with the way he dashes, he can't make a thrust without stopping himself to run...
Forward Tilt: A kick spin? Hum, you used the term spin. Does it mean with his kick he makes a circular horizontal kick that hits both behind him and forward him. Because Emil doesn't do that. And if you wonder why I say this, this is because the term spin means to me that he makes a turn at 360 degree. Oh, and a basic attack that could have easily been replaced by an arte.
Up tilt: An upward slash? Hum, again what upward slash are you talking about? I don't really remember Emil doing a simple upward slash in the game for example like the way Marth does, it means attacking directly above him and doing a arc of circle above him. I know he can make a slash where he moves the sword above him, but I don't think it is this movement that you're talking about, because, this slash is not above him, it is in front of him, and it can't attack people who are above Emil effectively, it doesn't make an arc of circle above him. It can't be the slash he makes when you press A with the stick up too, because it is an attack that attack in front of Emil too, not above him. And an up tilt normally should attack above Emil... But, honestly, I don't see how Emil can do this with all the slashes he has in the game. And it is totally logic, because it is rather rare to have ennemies that stay all the time above you in Tos2. If Emil didn't have a single move where he could attack an opponent above him, of course, it would have to be created. But it is not the case, there is a move where Emil can attack an opponent who is above him. I let you find what it is. Again, a basic attack that could have easily been avoided, and the worse, because I have not finished with it!
Still about this upward slash, how a basic attack for Emil, can have a moderate knockback? From what I read, and especially from the logic of a character who played Emil in Tales of, it has more knockback than at least some of your smashes if it is not all the smashes as for now the absence of information about the knockbacks of the smashes say they don't eject! This is really surprising! It has more knockback than your Side Smash, and it is normal, because as the side smash is Blade Fury, normally it has no knockback, the logic wants this move not to have knockback. But Blade Fury is an arte, a base arte but still, a merely basic attack which makes one hit, all the hits it should make in fact, can't be more powerful than an arte which makes all his hits, in term of damages inflicted, and even in term of knockback, for a character like Emil!
Down Tilt: Ravaging tiger. A tilt that involves a jump. It is really rare to see tilts that involve jump for non hacked characters, if I'm not wrong, no character has a jumping move as a tilt, but to me it is not a problem at all. The most annoying problem is the move itself. It has 2 hits, and this is the second hit that is a killing move. I said this move is a jumping move, and besides, a tilt. It means, you can only do this in ground. So it means most of the time, the opponent will be ejected down by the second hit, but will not die, as this move cannot be done in air, so it means there is floor below the ennemy hit by this attack. So most of the time, the killing power of this move is totally non existent. I suppose you made this attack in order to have a meteor smash, but as it is a tilt, it is truly ineffective. So this move is totally useless most of the times if we talk about killing.
Side Smash: Blade Fury. A base arte as a smash? What appears from the beginning when we see the name of this attack is that if there are arcane artes among smashes, the powers will be really inegal... Besides, the logic wants this attack to have no knockback, as it is a move used to inflict damages. I know there are characters who have smashes used mainly to inflict damages and not to eject so maybe it is the idea behind this smash. It is a way to do a character, like Sheik for example.
Up smash: Light spear cannon. An arcane arte. This is getting bad I will say you why but a little later. The up smash idea for light spear cannon is not a bad idea, but it should be noted that it is a little particular, as it only attacks opponents in front of Emil following an angle of 45 degree in the air, and opponents in front of him. It is not a problem, because some characters have up smash that attacks people in front of them but send them in the air. And this is the case of this smash so no problem on this side. But the most annoying problem with this move, is that it is absolutely not a killing move, this is what you says because there is absolutely no precision about the knockback for this move, so it is equivalent as zero knockback. For an arcane arte like this, it is strange, but still it is a way to do like the Up smash of Samus which is used to inflict damages.
Down Smash: Ex attack. This is really bad. Just wait for the explanation of why I say this, you will have it after I finish talking about this attack. So, I will rename this attack, it is Ex attack 1, because in the game there are two Ex attacks, one in ground and one in air, and we can see the differences by their number. I will be honest, I absolutely hate this move, in the game Tos2, and I don't use it. But I said I will be objective so don't worry about this, I will keep my promise.
So, this move is not so well known, this is not a move that we see so often, but still it is a good idea to think about putting it in the moveset. But, here, I can already say that it was a really bad idea. This movement is a little delayed, it takes more time to hit the opponent than Blade Fury and Light spear cannon. And normally it makes only one hit. Ex attacks are a little more powerful than an hit of a basic attack, but are less powerful than artes. So, this movement takes more time to hit than the other smashes, and besides, makes only one hit. So it is much less powerful. And besides, most of the down smashes hit both behind and forward you. It is not an absolute case, for example Lucas doesn't follow this logic. But, Emil can hit both behind him and forward him, there are moves that allow this, even if he has to jump, so it could have been an other idea as a down smash. But still, a down smash that hits only forward Emil, this is also a way to do.
Now, I will make a little synthesis of the smashes, because it needs one because there is something which is really bad. The smashes involve one base arte, one arcane arte, and one attack that is between basic and arte. When we read this, there is something to be afraid, that the smashes are absolutely not united at all. And this is really the case! I know the smashes for a character can't inflict the same amount of damages, but still, all the smashes inflicts damage which amounts are a rather similar, of course there are differences between the amounts, but you will never see a character with a smash that inflicts 10% of damages and an other smash that inflicts 30% of damages. (imagining these two smashes have all their hits that are successful) But, by doing a mixage of arcane artes and base arte, and a nearly basic attack, this is what happened. I know some smashes can be more useful in terms of inflicted damages than other, but there will never be differences like that. You can't make an attack like Ex attack 1, making damage at least a little similar to Blade Fury. It is completely impossible!
And, an other problem, is that smashes, at least in 99% of the time, are used to eject opponents with more or less efficience, but there is absolutely no smash that can eject in this moveset. It is what the absence of informations on knockback suggest, as I said you put movements that have knockback, so it means you already thought about which movement have or not have knockback. So, to an objective point of view, this absence means no knockback, and for smashes, having absolutely no knockback, at least for one, is very rare, and difficult. Maybe the moves with knockback should be aerials instead of smashes, it can be a way to play, but, I don't recall of any character that ABSOLUTELY can't eject with the smashes. Even Zero Suit Samus who doesn't have a truly finishing move can eject with at least one smash, even if it is not so effective.
Now, about the aerials.
Neutral aerial: What is this move? Emil doesn't do something like this in the game if I recall correctly. And how does he spin? Does he spins horizontally, or vertically? Because if it his vertically, then why didn't you put the true name of this attack? If he spins vertically, it is the tempest move, but as he doesn't learn this base arte, we can say that it is the final movement of Heavenly Tempest. The fact that he makes a spinning move as a neutral aerial doesn't disturb me at all, it is a way to do, and a way that is used by certain characters. Even if Emil doesn't learn this as a separate arte, it is not a problem, he proved in the game that he can use Tempest move even if there are things added, so we can use the part Tempest. But if it is truly Tempest, I think the number of hits is not correct.
Forward aerial: Emil slashes upward and his anti air attack? What is this move that you're talking about? I don't see what it is. What I'm sure of at least is that it is a basic attack.
Up aerial: A huge incoherence. Heavenly Tempest when used in air doesn't do rising slashes. And if it did, as an aerial movement, it would be probably a cheat movement. And besides, how is it possible to put heavenly tempest as an Up aerial while this move in air doesn't do any damages above Emil, excepted when he turns, but if an opponent is above Emil, he has enough time to hit Emil as he can't be touched by the two first movements. This is an arcane arte so this is the most powerful attack.
Back aerial: Hum, Emil kicks behind him, I know he is a mobile character in air, but I don't remember if he does something like this in the game in air, and again there is no information, for example of the speed of a movement like that, and it would probably have been necessary because obviously he can't make a kick like Snake, and it can't have very good range like him, and besides, I wonder if it will be easy to make an animation like this directly behind him with his kick. I can be wrong of course, but I have great doubts. Oh, and it can't be very powerful because it is a basic attack, and besides, it should be really slow because he needs to position his foot, then make the movement. A move with his sword would probably have been better, it would be less slow, because at least, he doesn't have to position his sword, he can execute immediately the move with his sword. Anyway, back aerial for Tales of characters most of the times are hard to do.
Down aerial: Havoc strike? Another huge incoherence. And this time it is an incoherence in Brawl. Down aerials are used to attack those who are below you, directly below you, so it means you can fall on them if you don't attack. If Havoc strike is used as a down aerial, you can't attack at all people who are directly below you, but this is the role of a down aerial. So this move has nothing to do as a down aerial.
A synthesis about aerials is required. The aerials move are really inegal, but this time, it is not a true problem, aerials moves can be very inegal in term of damages, and knockback too. Wario is a good exemple of this I think. But, there is absolutely, and again, no aerial that can be used to eject, still because of the same problem. Or, I don't remember any character who have at least one aerial move which doesn't eject, as low as the knockback is. There is also a mix of basic attacks, base arte and arcane. This time, I don't think it is a true problem, because of what I just said, aerials can be really inegal in term of damages. But they are some things that are really a problem in addition with what I said. First of all, as I said, some attacks are not placed correctly. It can easily be corrected, but it is still a great incoherence that a Tales of and simultaneously a Brawl player will never allow because these attacks as they are placed are truly not adapted to Brawl. Secondly, Emil doesn't have any meteor smash, it is a choice, but it is a little disappointing because Emil can really have one. Thirdly, and the most annoying, we can say that Emil is not really so good in air than how he is in TOS2. And this is the most annoying problem, with two basic attacks, and I recall basic attacks are the weakest attack Emil can do, it seriously makes him less effective in air. The lack of a meteor smash too. The lack of a move that hits opponent directly below Emil as a down aerial too. the lack of a move that hits opponent directly and immediately above Emil as an up aerial move too. The fact that no one aerial can eject because of what I said numerous times too. So aerials are really not good.
Now for the B moves.
Neutral B: Raining Fang: I have nothing to say about it.
Side B: Demon Fang: This attack is forced to be in Emil's moveset, but putting it as a side B means one recovery move down. This is a problem as Emil is mobile in air. Unless one recovery movement is put as a down B, it is possible Zero Suit Samus works like this.
Up B: Raging Heaven: Surely one of the worse attacks in this moveset. You put a meteor smash on a recovery move. It has the same defaults as Ravaging Tiger, and even some others. As it is the only recovery move of the moveset, and with the architecture of this move, we can guess that after this attack you're put in helpless mode, it is the logic conclusion because obviously you can't use this movement two times in a raw. If you use it to recover, with the architecture of the movement, you will be able to come back vertically, only vertically, these two things are absolutely contradictory with Emil's air mobility. And an Up B is not a movement with the main role to kill, it can have killing power of course, but putting a meteor smash on a move like this it is completely idiot. And if we give this move the same effect than Marth's Up B, and by this I mean that Emil would move a forward when he does the initial slash, if you're on ground, it would be idiot too, because if you're at an extremity of the battlefield, you do this, you can hit someone if you have the true right timing, so it is hard but it is not a problem because making a meteor smash is hard some times, but you're put in helpless mode and as you moved forward, you quit the battlefield, so it means you have a probability of suicide yourself. This is why this move, in all his aspects is one of the worse attacks in this moveset. This is mainly because you wanted the Up B as a killing move, but these types of moves don't exist mainly in order to do that, especially when they put in helpless mode.
Down B: Sword rain alpha: Ah. Very funny. An only grounded movement. It is really strange, I recall that you were complaining about Blade Fury that was not usable in air in Barbatos's moveset, but in fact you imagined a moveset with a B movement that can't be used in air too. How ironic, I thought you would show the example to follow, but I'm very disappointed in fact. I have nothing other to say about this movement.
So, I'm going to conclude. This moveset is really bad, really bad thought, really not enough precise, even if it is incomplete, it really doesn't fit both Emil's characteristics and Brawl. This moveset was not enough worked, if it was worked enough, there wouldn't be at least all these huge incoherences! And what is the worse is to see a basic attack stronger than an arte. And the last slash is that Emil has only two killing moves, with one nearly totally unusable. And besides, what pains too is the idea you have about the elemental attacks. Why use a combination of buttons in order to choose what attack will be used? They will always be used over the standards because they have the same properties, they are not slower, they have the same speed, are stronger and may have more knockback, in an appropriate moveset of course, excepted Demon fang maybe, as it is no longer a projectile in elemental this is the only move that will use the two versions. And what is too bad too, about the elementals attacks is that only twice of these attacks are on this moveset, there are in total 8 movements that can be changed to elemental, in this moveset there are only 4 of these movements. You read well, 4, because Havoc Strike is unusable at 90% with the state of your moveset, because to attack someone in air, it is really rare to see someone below you at 45 degree. Fortunately, the Final Smash is not here. I'm pessimist, it is true, but with a moveset like this, it is really difficult to think that the Final Smash can be good. Especially with the suggestions that were made to turn Emil with green eyes in Red eyes only for the Final Smash. An abomination because it would mean Emil can switch mode when he's fighting, when he can make mystic artes, when he's fighting along with his monsters, a better abomination considered the scenario of the game when you control Emil green eyed on the fights.
To the members of the team who will work on animations of this Psa, I let you decide what you want, but I really hope that you will make the right choice!
About these stock icons, I have nothing to say, they are really good. But one thing that is too bad, is that I don't know a lot of created characters like this who have stocks icons like this, it would be something that we should see more often.
Oh, and a last thing. Do you plan to put Emil's true sword instead of this Mythril Sword? The true sword of Emil is called the long sword, it is the fourth brres in the weapons if I recall correctly.
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
^ I would comment on your post, but it's late and I've got school tomorrow. So i'll do it later.
But i'll say a few things while I'm here:
1. It will be extremely hard to fit the same knock-back properties from TOS2 into Brawl. I just gave a simple description of the movement that Emil will make. (I will expand on this later)
2. I'll talk briefly about Havoc Strike now. Do you know what stall-and-fall moves are? Many characters (official ones) have them. Especially like Havoc Strike. characters such as: Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Sheik, Sonic, and ZSS. Which all fall at angled measures.
3. The idea of Emil <---> Ratatosk was that after the mystic arte, Emil's eyes would change and become Ratatosk and vice-versa. But because we can't do that is now out of the picture.
4. I'll explain more in depth later.
(And I did read your entire post. I'm surprised that you managed to stay awake,)
But i'll say a few things while I'm here:
1. It will be extremely hard to fit the same knock-back properties from TOS2 into Brawl. I just gave a simple description of the movement that Emil will make. (I will expand on this later)
2. I'll talk briefly about Havoc Strike now. Do you know what stall-and-fall moves are? Many characters (official ones) have them. Especially like Havoc Strike. characters such as: Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Sheik, Sonic, and ZSS. Which all fall at angled measures.
3. The idea of Emil <---> Ratatosk was that after the mystic arte, Emil's eyes would change and become Ratatosk and vice-versa. But because we can't do that is now out of the picture.
4. I'll explain more in depth later.
(And I did read your entire post. I'm surprised that you managed to stay awake,)
Judas
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 106
Hard to fit the properties of knockback of Tos2 to Brawl? Absolutely not. It is totally impossible in fact. But still, how can you put a merely basic attack have more knockback than an arte?
I know these types of attacks excepted for Captain falcon because it is a B move, but they don't fall at the same angle than Havoc Strike. They can still hit opponents below them, Sonic is a great example, but Havoc strike can't, the angle is too important in order to hit opponents below Emil. And if you modify the angle of Havoc strike, it would be an incoherence because this move wouldn't be Emil's Havoc strike anymore, but Luke Fon Fabre's.
It is fortunate that we can't do this transformation, because even after a mystic arte, Emil doesn't turn in Ratatosk! He doesn't change his mode in any fight in the game! And you should know better than anyone that it is completely impossible for Emil green eyed to become Ratatosk if he fights.
I know these types of attacks excepted for Captain falcon because it is a B move, but they don't fall at the same angle than Havoc Strike. They can still hit opponents below them, Sonic is a great example, but Havoc strike can't, the angle is too important in order to hit opponents below Emil. And if you modify the angle of Havoc strike, it would be an incoherence because this move wouldn't be Emil's Havoc strike anymore, but Luke Fon Fabre's.
It is fortunate that we can't do this transformation, because even after a mystic arte, Emil doesn't turn in Ratatosk! He doesn't change his mode in any fight in the game! And you should know better than anyone that it is completely impossible for Emil green eyed to become Ratatosk if he fights.
MagmarFire
Smash Journeyman
How can a downward stab have more knockback than a bomb? (Link)
But anyway, more knockback doesn't necessarily make the move "better," per se. Many artes are excellent combo supplements in the original game, so a low knockback could simply mean a followup to an arte that actually does have a crapload of knockback.
I'd say mix and match the knockback values, personally.
Judas
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 106
MagmarFire: The explanation is very simple, the bomb is a projectile that he can use all the time. This is why it has less knockback, to avoid cheating. I didn't say the fact that a move has more knockback makes this move better, but still, it appears really strange to have a merely basic attack to have more knockback than an arte, especially in the way they are used in Tos2. A simple slash could eject better than an arte like for example ravaging tiger? It is completely absurd! The mere fact that a basic attack can eject is absurd in fact if we take in consideration their characteristics. I agree in the fact that many artes are excellent combos supplements, but I take your words fully, you said many, not all. But in the game Tos2, why do you use basic attacks? To inflict damages, and to make combos. So in Smash Bros brawl, it is completely unacceptable to see a merely basic attack have more knockback than an arte, and even a knockback as low it can be, because if it has a low knockback, it can means no combo. All basics attacks in Super Smash bros brawl, for Emil, shouldn't be able to eject at all! If one of them can eject, then it is a great incoherence with what he is in Tos2. But if for example, there are some artes that can't eject, and all the basics attacks can't eject too, here I see absolutely no problems. But in that case, it would mean the basic attacks will be used in order to inflict damages, and that they will be followed by other attacks, in order to make combos, like Emil does, and the most important, like Barbatos did in his moveset.
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
First of all, I thought it would be common sense to knock that they would have knockback. I just didn't explain what type of knockback each separate move would have.
Secondly, I don't think we should have his movelist of JUST artes. We need at least some variety with him.
Now on your comments,
Neutral Attack: As i said, it works like Marth's neutral attack. So it's not just *slash*, *slash* then your done. It's *slash*, *slash*, *slash*, *slash*, etc. or you can max it at 6 like you guys said. Low knockback.
Side Tilt: it's one of his forward attacks in ToS2. There's even a picture on page 3 of this thread that shows it. It would have low to medium knockback. (Functions like Mario's or Luigi's STilt. Whichever has a forward kick.)
Up Tilt: I know it hit's more infront of Emil. its in this video @ 0:03. low to medium knockback.
Down Tilt: The downward slash at the end of Ravaging Tiger can knock up players like Link's or Ike's DTilt.
Dash Attack: It's the "thrust" during Savage Reaper or Raging Thrust. medium knockback.
NAir: It's his neutral attack in the air. where his spins horizontally while slashing. It's the same as the NAir in Barbatos' moveset. Low knockback.
FAir: It was shown in this video at around 0:08. Low Knockback.
BAir: I know he doesn't have an actual back kick. But because it's Smash Bros, we probably will include some custom moves that aren't related to his ToS2 moves. Medium Knockback.
DAir: Havoc Strike. I already gave a brief description earlier.
UAir: Heavenly Tempest. It's mean't to damage players. Low Knockback. (P.S. Try either using Heavenly Tempest while playing "Manual Mode" and tilt the control stick backwards. or Link Demon Fang (Try both) to Heavenly Tempest to get the backwards momentum.)
Side Smash: The last hit will have low to medium knockback. all the other slashes will have low knockback.
Up Smash: Not all smashes will have knockback. LSC can just be one of the damaging USmashes. Like Roy & Mewtwo.
Down Smash: I didn't specify because Smashes are ground-only moves. So it would make sense that it is "EX Attack 1." Moderate kockback.
Side Special: Demon Fang. Not all side specials give momentum. Specials like Mario Cape, Dancing Blade, Flying Slam, Headbutt, Waddle Dee Toss, Hammer, Boomerang, etc. don't give momentum. but it can give little momentum like Mario Cape and Dancing Blade.
Up Special: Raging Heaven. There are other up specials that have knockdown properties. Like Final Cutter and Aether. The point of the knockdown is to stop other characters from grabbing the ledge. You can move slightly forwards. Doesn't go into helpless like Sonic and Snake. Except you CAN'T use UAir. (Due to the fact that he can't link two Arcane artes together.
Down Special: The issue I had wasn't having a ground only special. but that you changed the properties of the move if it's used in the air. Also, you seem to be on specifics of the game and It's not even aerial enabled in the game. Plus I think down specials should be the only special to be ground only for certain characters. And PERSONALLY, I think all Tales of characters should have a ground only Down Special. So I chose Sword Rain: Alpha (Or Akisazame from the way you guys could hear it.) because it's a move that "EVERYONE" uses.
First Hit wil have low knockback (and a vacuum property to get hit by later hits.) The stabs will obviously have extremely low knockback. The last hit has moderate vertical knockback.
So how's that? I'll give percentages later.
Oh, I have ideas for throws:
Back Throw: "Raging Thrust"- Emil performs a quick dash through the player then slashes then thrusts. With the thrust providing moderate knockback.
Down Throw: Emil holds the player on the ground with his sword which he will then punch the player 3 times the 3rd providing most knockback of the three. Medium knockback.
Secondly, I don't think we should have his movelist of JUST artes. We need at least some variety with him.
Now on your comments,
Neutral Attack: As i said, it works like Marth's neutral attack. So it's not just *slash*, *slash* then your done. It's *slash*, *slash*, *slash*, *slash*, etc. or you can max it at 6 like you guys said. Low knockback.
Side Tilt: it's one of his forward attacks in ToS2. There's even a picture on page 3 of this thread that shows it. It would have low to medium knockback. (Functions like Mario's or Luigi's STilt. Whichever has a forward kick.)
Up Tilt: I know it hit's more infront of Emil. its in this video @ 0:03. low to medium knockback.
Down Tilt: The downward slash at the end of Ravaging Tiger can knock up players like Link's or Ike's DTilt.
Dash Attack: It's the "thrust" during Savage Reaper or Raging Thrust. medium knockback.
NAir: It's his neutral attack in the air. where his spins horizontally while slashing. It's the same as the NAir in Barbatos' moveset. Low knockback.
FAir: It was shown in this video at around 0:08. Low Knockback.
BAir: I know he doesn't have an actual back kick. But because it's Smash Bros, we probably will include some custom moves that aren't related to his ToS2 moves. Medium Knockback.
DAir: Havoc Strike. I already gave a brief description earlier.
UAir: Heavenly Tempest. It's mean't to damage players. Low Knockback. (P.S. Try either using Heavenly Tempest while playing "Manual Mode" and tilt the control stick backwards. or Link Demon Fang (Try both) to Heavenly Tempest to get the backwards momentum.)
Side Smash: The last hit will have low to medium knockback. all the other slashes will have low knockback.
Up Smash: Not all smashes will have knockback. LSC can just be one of the damaging USmashes. Like Roy & Mewtwo.
Down Smash: I didn't specify because Smashes are ground-only moves. So it would make sense that it is "EX Attack 1." Moderate kockback.
Side Special: Demon Fang. Not all side specials give momentum. Specials like Mario Cape, Dancing Blade, Flying Slam, Headbutt, Waddle Dee Toss, Hammer, Boomerang, etc. don't give momentum. but it can give little momentum like Mario Cape and Dancing Blade.
Up Special: Raging Heaven. There are other up specials that have knockdown properties. Like Final Cutter and Aether. The point of the knockdown is to stop other characters from grabbing the ledge. You can move slightly forwards. Doesn't go into helpless like Sonic and Snake. Except you CAN'T use UAir. (Due to the fact that he can't link two Arcane artes together.
Down Special: The issue I had wasn't having a ground only special. but that you changed the properties of the move if it's used in the air. Also, you seem to be on specifics of the game and It's not even aerial enabled in the game. Plus I think down specials should be the only special to be ground only for certain characters. And PERSONALLY, I think all Tales of characters should have a ground only Down Special. So I chose Sword Rain: Alpha (Or Akisazame from the way you guys could hear it.) because it's a move that "EVERYONE" uses.
First Hit wil have low knockback (and a vacuum property to get hit by later hits.) The stabs will obviously have extremely low knockback. The last hit has moderate vertical knockback.
So how's that? I'll give percentages later.
Oh, I have ideas for throws:
Back Throw: "Raging Thrust"- Emil performs a quick dash through the player then slashes then thrusts. With the thrust providing moderate knockback.
Down Throw: Emil holds the player on the ground with his sword which he will then punch the player 3 times the 3rd providing most knockback of the three. Medium knockback.
Which is based of the scene where he pummels Magnar at Luin.(I believe it was Luin. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
MagmarFire
Smash Journeyman
I was typing up a response detailing how backwards your logic sounds, but then I remembered that vBrawl has pathetically-low hitstun. With that in mind, I can certainly understand your gripe more. Still, I don't see why we can't just have artes be comboable into each other like in the original game, as well as regular attacks into artes--and maybe artes into smashes. It sounds to me like if some artes can deal knockback and some can lead into more combo opportunities with little knockback, then the moveset would be golden; if you have adamant gripes about that, then I can't help but feel that that's just insatiable inflexibility.
If you define "basic" attacks to be those that cover Neutral A and some tilts (e.g. not smashes), then yeah, I guess I agree with your argument. I can tell you, though, that making Emil a combo machine will be problematic no matter what we argue if he's not in an environment where he can take advantage of hitstun. (Yes, random Brawl+/Project: M plug. Sue me.
)Yes, it's Luin.
Holds the player with his sword? Sounds like it would be more straightforward if Emil trapped the character between his knees and started pummeling.
And a bit less gruesome, if we're talking about having a sword keeping someone held down.
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
^ He's pushing with the side of his blade. not with the actual blade itself. Sorry 'bout that.
MagmarFire
Smash Journeyman
Okay, that makes more sense. XD
Would this require a new "thrown" animation for everyone else? Or would we use the character's Kirby D"thrown" animation?
Would this require a new "thrown" animation for everyone else? Or would we use the character's Kirby D"thrown" animation?
Judas
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 106
MagmarFire: I don't know if you noticed, but I definitely support Barbatos's moveset. And what was in this moveset? There was an Emil who made combos, because some movements couldn't eject. And with the moveset of Royal Blade, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT THE CASE!
There is something that is reccurent in this moveset, and even with the basics attacks, which is a great shame, it is that the basics attacks have knockback! An attack which has knockback, what does it mean? It means this attack, can eject, even if the knockback is low! In that case, how do you think it is possible for Emil to do combos like this if his ennemy is ejected by a simple basic attack?
And, what I mean by basic attack, because you made a mistake, I'm not using the term basic because with the moveset a movement is placed as a smash, as a tilt, as an aerial, or as a neutral A. I use the term basic attack which is directly related to Tos2. In Tos2, all attacks that are not artes are considered as basic attacks, excepted the Ex attack which are a little particular. So it means all movements that are not artes excepted the Ex attacks in this moveset are basic attacks, excepted for the Throw that are a particular case. But for the others, like the simple slash, the moves where he uses his kick and not for an arte, these are basic attacks!
Edit: It is impossible to transfer an animation of an existing character to an import character, because the bone structures are too different, this is what I read somewhere.
There is something that is reccurent in this moveset, and even with the basics attacks, which is a great shame, it is that the basics attacks have knockback! An attack which has knockback, what does it mean? It means this attack, can eject, even if the knockback is low! In that case, how do you think it is possible for Emil to do combos like this if his ennemy is ejected by a simple basic attack?
And, what I mean by basic attack, because you made a mistake, I'm not using the term basic because with the moveset a movement is placed as a smash, as a tilt, as an aerial, or as a neutral A. I use the term basic attack which is directly related to Tos2. In Tos2, all attacks that are not artes are considered as basic attacks, excepted the Ex attack which are a little particular. So it means all movements that are not artes excepted the Ex attacks in this moveset are basic attacks, excepted for the Throw that are a particular case. But for the others, like the simple slash, the moves where he uses his kick and not for an arte, these are basic attacks!
Edit: It is impossible to transfer an animation of an existing character to an import character, because the bone structures are too different, this is what I read somewhere.
MagmarFire
Smash Journeyman
All these moveset versions are making my head spin... @_@
Simple: Make artes combo moves. Or increase the hitstun. Or limit DI. It won't matter if a move ejects if the opponent's percentage is low; if a move has enough hitstun or good enough DI constraint, Emil can simply read the DI and/or chase with an aerial, which could set up combos in its own right. Of course, that's assuming that we're talking about an environment other than vBrawl, in which case the knockback is pretty much meaningless if an opponent can break Emil's combos out of scant hitstun anyway.
I don't see a problem with low knockback, if only because "low" is not quantitative (if knockback's low enough, it can cause combo-ending ejection at upwards of at least 150%, if you want).
Oh, I see! My apologies. I wasn't really sure what you meant. XD
Sadly, I learned that the hard way yesterday.
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
Can we still at least include a few of my ideas? Barbatos' moveset isn't bad but there's nothing wrong with tweaking it a tad.
@Fliptocat: I did make the stock icons. XD (Which I'm really proud of)
@Fliptocat: I did make the stock icons. XD (Which I'm really proud of)
MagmarFire
Smash Journeyman
All right, awesome! Animations!
How many more do you think are needed for a complete beta?
How many more do you think are needed for a complete beta?
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
Off-Topic: Where can I post suggestions of stage ideas?
On-Topic: I also can't wait for this beta. (This seems like one of the better Falco Hacks)
Oh, are you guys gonna include a kirby hat later?
On-Topic: I also can't wait for this beta. (This seems like one of the better Falco Hacks)
Oh, are you guys gonna include a kirby hat later?
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
I was just gonna suggest a ToVS stage (possibly arena or that one you fight random enemies on) for brawl because all the ToS2 stages are plain flat. The ToVS stages at least have some uniqueness to them. (Not just plain flat.)
Judas
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 106
It is true, that ToVs stages can be good to put, but the problem is that we probably can't import them as it is a psp game. So I suppose someone will have to create them. But ToVs stages are more complex to do than the stages that are about tales of in Brawl Vault, there are platforms indeed, and if I recall correctly, there is a stage where there is a laser that can inflict damages, like in Pillar lances.
And for Kirby Hat, I don't know if it takes a very long time to do, but if it takes a so long time, I suppose it doesn't really worth all this time spent on, especially if there are Psas or imports on him.
And for Kirby Hat, I don't know if it takes a very long time to do, but if it takes a so long time, I suppose it doesn't really worth all this time spent on, especially if there are Psas or imports on him.
Hey you guys I was planning to do 2-3 Different move sets for the beta release. Fliptocat told me about the arguments in this thread.
But the reason why is not to let this project down. It seems that it will be a better idea. So the people download this. The can choose one of the three instead people asking us that it needs this and that or this is bad.
The 3 Different Move Sets are : Mine, Barbatos ( i think thats how you spell it), and Royal_Blade's Ideas with Barbatos. Tell me if you agree on this?
Fire-Soul: I will tell you about this, in a little bit.
But the reason why is not to let this project down. It seems that it will be a better idea. So the people download this. The can choose one of the three instead people asking us that it needs this and that or this is bad.
The 3 Different Move Sets are : Mine, Barbatos ( i think thats how you spell it), and Royal_Blade's Ideas with Barbatos. Tell me if you agree on this?
Fire-Soul: I will tell you about this, in a little bit.
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
I'm all for it. We could make a finalized moveset later that would be a combination of all three.
Also, are you guys gonna make the alternate color schemes the same way as my stock icons?
Like so:
White: Scarf is White, shirt is white instead of blue, arm-wear(gloves?) are also white. And all the yellow lines and bits on his clothing are white.
Blue: Same as "White" but in a light blue. (Marth's blue)
Red: Same as "White" but in a red. (Marth's red is good)
Green: Same as "White" but in a light blue. (Falco's green works)
Black: Scarf is Black, shirt is black instead of blue, arm-wear(gloves?) are also black. And all the yellow lines and bits on his clothing are black. All (normal) black bands/strips on his clothing are grey-ish sliver.
Or different ones? (Cause I just generalized with colors.)
Also, are you guys gonna make the alternate color schemes the same way as my stock icons?
Like so:
White: Scarf is White, shirt is white instead of blue, arm-wear(gloves?) are also white. And all the yellow lines and bits on his clothing are white.
Blue: Same as "White" but in a light blue. (Marth's blue)
Red: Same as "White" but in a red. (Marth's red is good)
Green: Same as "White" but in a light blue. (Falco's green works)
Black: Scarf is Black, shirt is black instead of blue, arm-wear(gloves?) are also black. And all the yellow lines and bits on his clothing are black. All (normal) black bands/strips on his clothing are grey-ish sliver.
Or different ones? (Cause I just generalized with colors.)
MagmarFire
Smash Journeyman
I reckon a little PSA experimentation to tweak the technical properties wouldn't hurt, either.
If only there were a way to make animation translation less time consuming, though...
Judas
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 106
Royal Blade: I'm nearly sure Barbatos won't let what you says happen...
Anglc: I'm against this. At least if it is a problem about the damaging taunts, which is not something very popular, I can easily understand to make a version with or without damaging taunts. But, for all the other things, it is not a good idea. It is Fliptocat who makes the Psa right? It should already be very hard to do a Psa for Emil, I let you imagine what will happen with three, and what is worse, we don't have to forget this Emil is an imported character, which makes animations works even harder... It will be a pain too for the person who will make the voices, because if there are three Psas, it means there are three set of voices to put.
But, still I'm curious to see your moveset Anglc.
Anglc: I'm against this. At least if it is a problem about the damaging taunts, which is not something very popular, I can easily understand to make a version with or without damaging taunts. But, for all the other things, it is not a good idea. It is Fliptocat who makes the Psa right? It should already be very hard to do a Psa for Emil, I let you imagine what will happen with three, and what is worse, we don't have to forget this Emil is an imported character, which makes animations works even harder... It will be a pain too for the person who will make the voices, because if there are three Psas, it means there are three set of voices to put.
But, still I'm curious to see your moveset Anglc.
Well I'm also going to do the psa. But I'm not sure if Barbatos is do this too. Because this. All most all the animations is going to be same but some atks will be different like Final Smashes for Example. So its some animations are different.
Oh yea! I forgot about that.
Sorry.
I was thinking to do this so nobody will get mad about the aniomations
Oh yea! I forgot about that.
Sorry.
I was thinking to do this so nobody will get mad about the aniomations
Judas
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 106
Yeah, thinking about the voices is not the main thing we do. But still, you do this because you're afraid of people getting mad of the animations, it means each time there will be a report you will change the animations? It is really not the way to adopt, I know we do Psa for pleasing people but not at a point like this... And besides, I know it is not you who talked about this, but do you seriously think that Barbatos would agree with this project of three Psas, and especially with the project of combining three Psas in one? You have talked to him with this project, or does anyone have talked to him about this? As the title he has, Psa organizer, I think if you didn't talked to him, he would have been one of the first persons to talk about this project. Because I'm sure he will have words for this.
Fire-Soul
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2010
- Messages
- 62
Sure, no prob :D,
for the final smash in air he will need a animation that fits only for air right? or will be used the same animation on ground in air?
Royal_Blade
Smash Apprentice
Why not have an arte like Dark Radiance, which works both ground and air, and If the last strike hits someone, then it can link to his mystic arte. (Like how C.Falcon's needs to be hit by Blue Falcon before ramming into them.) So then it would always link to the mystic arte. (cut-scene)
Just to be clear on Dark Radiance, all hits could have small vacuum properties and minimal knockback. (So it will be easier to hit closer players.)
Edit:
Could you get him to PM them to me then? That would be greatly appreciated!
Edit2: Wait... He already made 3 of the alternates or 3 different colors for the original?
MagmarFire
Smash Journeyman
I've been using v0.x. I didn't know there was a 4.x mod for it, or at least the OP of the original Brawlbox topic didn't say as much (as far as I know).
I'mma look into this.
EDIT: Holy crap, this is nice! Now this is more how animating should be done!