Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[Sudai]

lol at angry stop.

Joke tech. Even if it works (I haven't tested because there's no effing point) You get LESS grab immunity than a spotdodge with more ending lag to punish. Why bother doing it, ya know? :/

 

[Gates]

Ok, I think we have enough ROB information. It's a shame we couldn't get Overswarm to post here. Oh well, thanks to al the ROB players who did contribute.
KIRBY DISCUSSION GO!

 

[Omni]

This match-up is rough.

1.) Don't underestimate Kirby's swallow. If Kirby swallows DDD, he can auto-release him to footstool and if necessary to d-air spike. Given the scenario that Kirby is at 100% and DDD is at like 20% and you get swallowed, sometimes you just have to take the blow and don't struggle taking you both down. If you do struggle and the Kirby knows what he's doing, you're still dead and he's alive. Seriously; just don't underestimate it. I can't repeat that enough.

2.) Don't keep your shield up too long. If you're approaching with your shield and you don't have any options, roll away. Kirby's b-air is very good at piercing mid-size/low-size shields. A patient Kirby just has to wait a few seconds while a DDD is shielding for him to be able to attack through it.

3.) If you're hawking with DDD in the air while Kirby is on the ground, be careful. Fast falling into b-airs in attempt to catch Kirby off guard will usually result in Kirby shieldgrabbing you. Kirby's grab is deceptively long, just like DDD's, and also very quick. Against defensive shieldgrabbing Kirby's in this situation, the perfect response is to fast fall with swallow. If they're in their shield, you win every time. What this will do is force the Kirby attempt to land behind your swallow (thinking you'll try it again), leave them open for b-airs, or hopefully they'll let you have a safe landing by giving you distance.

4.) Kirby vs DDD is a WOP battle. If one of them attacks, the other person usually has the advantage. The two most common approaches from both sides will be dash-in to shield and spaced aerials (normally b-airs). If DDD gets grabbed, you'll most likely be hit with a f-throw or a d-throw. This is a dangerous area for DDD to be. Remember to always DI away because not DI'ing at all will earn you a b-air or up-air to the face. The key is to remember that you're DDD and you won't die so easily.

5.) Speaking of dying easily, Kirby can kill DDD early if the DDD isn't prepared. Break out of the habit of air dodging toward the ground thinking you'll be fine, because you won't. A good Kirby will have a well-timed f-smash waiting for you. ALWAYS BE READY TO DI. Another common way for DDD to die early is not DI'ing a clean hit from Kirby's b-air. The b-air is extremely strong, fast, and has great knockback. If you play your cards right and always avoid kill moves (b-air, any smash), you should be around 150% before you die.

6.) Be careful when you throw your Waddle Dees. Make sure there is plenty of room between you and Kirby. If Kirby shields it at mid range, he can run out of shield and grab you/reverse b-air you each time.

 

[MK26]

^^This dude knows his stuff

As some of you may know, we discussed D3 over on the Kirby boards a few weeks ago, and we decided on 60-40 in Kirby's favour
Here's our summary of the matchup:

[King Dedede]

Discussion: Page 20 to page 22 and Matchup Thread Export

Overview (of Dedede):
The mallet-wielding king of Dream Land joins the Brawl for the first time! His smashes pack an incredible punch, but much speed is traded for that power. His multiple jumps and super armour on his Up-B make up for his low aerial mobility, and his heavy weight almost ensures that he won't need to use that recovery to the fullest. But with heavy weight comes combo possibilities for several opponents, and Kirby is no exception. Dedede has a fair bit of trouble against Kirby, and if you take advantage of that, the fight is in your hands.

(Dedede's) Pros+Cons:
+Several disjointed hitboxes in tilts and smashes
+Effective and versatile projectile in Waddle Dee Toss
+Powerful throws, including D-Throw that can chaingrab heavier characters and the B-Throw that does 16% when fresh
+4 mid-air jumps and Up-B with great vertical distance and super armour provide incredible recovery
+Heavy weight, combined with floatiness, make for a character that is difficult to both outright kill and gimp
-Relatively slow
-Worst horizontal air speed in the game
-Predictable recovery allows for edgeguards
-Easy to combo due to weight
-Several laggy attacks
-Large target

Watch out for (Dedede's):
U-tilt - Like Snake's, except not broken. Still powerful...but the range isn't broken

******** grab range - It's ********. Dededes can spam grab all day and just about the only thing you can do is roll away. Spotdodge --> jab could work too

Waddle Dee Toss - Don't touch the ******* Gordo!

B-air - Longer range than yours, and he can SH double b-air. Shield and take advantage of the landing lag

F-tilt - Its huge range is a problem, as it will stop most of your ground approaches

F-smash - Do not airdodge into an F-smash. Ever. I've tried, and it doesn't work.

Dash attack - Possibly the most embarrassing way to ever get killed...

How to win (as Kirby against Dedede):
Grab combos – D3, being a heavy character, is especially susceptible to Kirby's low percent grab combos. Get him near an edge and you can string together F-throw --> U-air or F-air --> D-air to put him in a difficult position

Stay close – Dedede excels at midrange. Stick close to him to make him uncomfortable

Edgeguard – Dedede's horrendous horizontal air speed makes him a prime target for B-air walls and general edgeguards

Use your tilts – They're too fast for D3 to do much about them. At closer range, D-tilt works wonder. Slightly further away, F-tilt is effective

Spit out or Swallow?
lol
Dedede's has slightly longer range, but more ending lag

What NOT to do (as Kirby against Dedede):
Use attacks with long ending lag – You have to take advantage of his ending lag...you can't spam slow attacks in the meantime

Try to beat his aerials vertically – What I mean by that is, his U-air beats your D-air and his D-air beats your U-air. Avoid being right above him or right below him, unless you're punishing lag on a missed attack or you're edgeguarding him off-stage

Approach recklessly – Do you seriously want an F-tilt to the face that badly?

Forget his D-throw – Generally, D3s will use B-throw against characters they can't chaingrab, but remember that his D-throw can set up a techchase situation. To be safe, techroll away from Dedede. If you are unable to (ex. the end of the stage is behind you), and are at high percentages, keep an eye out for the dash attack

Let the Waddle Dees be – Always clear them off the stage asap. F-tilt is quite useful for this purpose

Stages (in order of priority) (lime=good for Kirby, orange=good for Dedede):
Jungle Japes – Like against so many others, you can take advantage of the high ceiling here
Rainbow Cruise – You can take advantage of his poor aerial mobility here
Low ceilings– Avoid the U-tilt if he counterpicks Corneria or other low-ceilinged stages
Not much else – Generally, Kirby and Dedede are good on the same stages. None of the neutrals are much of a problem, but none have any inherent advantages for you either

Synopsis:
Kirby, in several ways, is a Dedede counter. He can't be chaingrabbed, though techchasing is possible. Kirby's recovery makes it difficult for Dedede to gimp, while Kirby's gimps make it difficult for Dedede to recover. Watch for the U- and F-tilts, space to avoid his incredible grab range, and F-tilt to counter Waddle Dees and Doos. And remember...don't touch the ******* Gordo!

 

[Thee Incubus]

I tend to stay more grounded in this matchup and abuse that Ftilt. I always seem to have my aerials beaten out.

Also, the obvious moves to watch out for when it comes to killing DDD is the Dair>Fsmash and Bair or Dair offstage. Other than Kirby's hammer and the previously mentioned moves, that does it for reliable early kill moves.

And don't get grabbed early stock....that grab combo can get ya to 40+% easy.

I'll post more later. I fight Kirbys quite a bit now.
Not a easy matchup, but definitely not impossible.

 

[napZzz]

I tend to stay more grounded in this matchup and abuse that Ftilt. I always seem to have my aerials beaten out.

Also, the obvious moves to watch out for when it comes to killing DDD is the Dair>Fsmash and Bair or Dair offstage. Other than Kirby's hammer and the previously mentioned moves, that does it for reliable early kill moves.

And don't get grabbed early stock....that grab combo can get ya to 40+% easy.

I'll post more later. I fight Kirbys quite a bit now.
Not a easy matchup, but definitely not impossible.

haha DH's kirby is pro

Any tips on landing utilt off on kirby? I cant ever seem to land it.

 

[toasty]

whoops...about a week late on the ROB discussion. A lot of great info covered already, so I'll just add this: your dtilt may beat ROB's uair. I know it happened to me a lot on Halberd when I'd try upB-ing through the stage with uair and I'd just get dtilted over and over again...so if ledgecamping ROBs who uair a lot give you issues, try dtilt...it might work sorry for being off topic >_>

Also: always throw Gordos...



...wait.

 

[Gates]

Also: always throw Gordos...



...wait.

OMG IT'S SO OBVIOUS NOW.

Kirby discussion can be closed.
LUCARIO DISCUSSION GO!

 

[manhunter098]

I dont remember what the Lucario boards determined on this matchup, but its a real pain for Lucario. Basically your best bet is to just shield grab pretty much everything we try to do and then just chain grab across the stage. This is a tough match for Lucario because you cant exactly land near DDD or you get chain grabbed. It will definitely be a very long match favoring DDD, probably something like a 60:40 matchup in DDDs favor.

 

[Gates]

I don't think the Lucario boards have discussed this matchup, actually. At least not in their matchup thread.

 

[Timbers]

We haven't discussed it outside of the IRC.

The general opinion is that DDD is one of the Luc's hardest matchups, a 60:40 DDD favor.

Having only a small amount of moves that are safe on block (fsmash, aurasphere, retreating fair) it draws the game out for a hella long time. I don't really feel like going into this though, hopefully another Luc can cover for me.

 

[G-Beast]

as timbers said, DDD is one of our tougher matchups. 60:40 in DDD's favor i would say. now on the to real stuff.
Lucario is one character you wont have to approch, in fact it is a bad idea to even think about it. one wrong move and you get a FPCG to ~45% and DDD is one of Lucario's easiest characters to CG. our kill moves are fsmash, Aura Sphere, and at higher %'s/Aura levels dair and bair. the main thing is about Lucario, the tables can turn at any given time; just because your 2 stocks ahead of Lucario does not mean youve won, for our Aura boost is destructively strong even when were one stock behind. the main idea of this matchup is, dont go easy, ever more so then other characters, showing mercy will quickly end you for Lucario can quite easily combo DDD at low-mid %'s combined with his aura boost, you can easily die at an unexpectedly low %. keep your cool, and you should come out on top.

DDD's advantages on Lucario: you have much better camping so you force us to approach, our recovery is easier-then-most to gimp by a simple edgehog but dont do it too early or you might meet an early doom from a Aura Sphere and be, alot of your attacks outrange alot of ours; your dtilt beats all our melee attacks except fsmash which is beaten by your ftilt but your utilt/smash get beaten by our dair. as for aerials, our dair wins against your uair, be careful with going against our fair/bair; your fair has longer range then ours but it is slower, your bair also pretty much beats our fair, and it has about equal range to bair. your dair beats our uair most of the time, theres a sneaky fast fall trick to do that can make it hit you w/o scathing Lucario. avoid using you nair, for its short range is beaten by all our attacks, including our own nair and utilt, avoid fighting Lucario in the air. speaking of utilt, keep in mind it hits BEHIND Lucario and then AHEAD of him and it is very fast, it will punish you if you decide to get rolly. your chain grab works very well on us should you get it off. remember extremespeed(our upb/recovery)
has NO hitboxes at all, but we can go into a wall cling if done into the correct wall

what does Lucario do good against DDD? i outlined a few above, we can combo you.. CG you.. avoid fighting us in the air... but theres a couple other things. our fsmash has a tipper effect like Marth's but it is kinda slow. be aware of double team, it is something we can do vs your waddle dee's/doo's and slide towards you, and double it over to counter your attacks.

this is what i know about DDD vs Lucario

 

[jaaboy]

is it me, or is Luc roll alot quicker and longer than most? Or am i ********?

 

[CO18]

is it me, or is Luc roll alot quicker and longer than most? Or am i ********?

It Indeed is.

Anyway 6:4 for DDD as far as the matchup goes.

 

[TK Wolf]

Copypasta from my post on the Luc boards:

I fight a D3 mainer on a semi-regular basis, and a few others at tournies. D3 might be Lucario's worst matchup. If it's not his worst, it's definitely his most frustrating.

-Luc is pretty much forced to approach for the majority, of not all of this match.
- Lucario can't pressure with auraspheres (AS) very well, partially because the waddles block it, but also because a surprise gordo can destroy Luc, making it too risky.
- D3 can obviously chaingrab Luc across the stage and set him up for some edgeguarding pain. I honestly don't see many gimps, but racking the damage on hurts.
- If Luc is lucky enough to get a forcepalm grab (FPG) on D3 when they're at low percents, he can take good advantage of it. It's rare though, and with D3's monster grab range it's often not worth the risk, unless D3 does something punishable.
- On the ground, D3's ftilt outranges everything in Luc's arsenal other than an AS. If close enough and timed just right, I suppose Luc could powershield it and punish, but I'm not sure about that.
- In the air, D3's dair, uair, and bair win over mostly anything Luc can throw at him. Luc can approach from the front (if D3 doesn't have enough time to turn around and bair), or a 45 degree angle to get in some fairs.

- If D3 isn't careful, Luc can charge an AS on top of his shield to chip away at it. Luc can mixup approaches coming out of shfair. The only unpunishable approach is shfair then jump away. If Luc can read D3 well enough, he can mixup beween shfair->bair from the other side, shfair->dair (delayed),shfair->nair, shfair->AS. All of those except for shfair->AS can be punished easily if D3 just holds his shield up. The trick is to make D3 think you're not using a 2nd attack, or that he has time to interrupt, then surprise him with a hit.
- The main problem is that any trick Luc tries obviously has a risk. If he outsmarts, D3 Luc stands to gain a short combo assuming D3 can DI properly, while if D3 reacts properly he gains a changrab across the stage followed by offstage fighting in his advantage.
- Luc wants to get D3 in the air and generally above him in this match, it's hard to do but a definite advantage.
- If D3 is forced to use his upB and land on stage, Luc can Usmash through it, or shAD then dair. If D3 is careless and hangs onto the edge too long, Luc can fsmash him. Luc can put some reasonable pressure on D3 recovering... as long as he doesn't fall for D3's neutralB.

- It's not uncommon for Luc to live to 140%, because while D3 can rack up damage, he doesn't have that many KO moves that Luc easily falls for or can't handle.
- Luc, however, has an even harder time KOing D3. If Luc is high in damage, then D3 still needs to be well into the 100's. If Luc is on a fresh stock, it's pretty easy for D3 to live to 170%.

If I had to slap a number of it, I'd say that at the very least it's 60:40 in D3s favor. I wouldn't hesitate to say 65:35.

Lucario's FTilt, Dair, and Nair will help greatly in this match.

I have to disagree with you there. D3 loooooooooves when Lucario dairs, because as long as he shields it (unless Luc is higher than he'd be from shorthopping) he gets a free grab. Ftilt can be decent, but the range of D3's ftilt makes it hard to get in such a position. Nair is great for finishing combos, but if you use it on a grounded D3 and didn't hit him with a fair leading to the nair, or manage to fake him out, you will get grabbed before you even land.

 

[TK Wolf]

This too:

D3 makes Lucario a sad little furry

Spoiler

10sadlittlefurries

 

[Fizzle]

D3 loooooooooves when Lucario dairs, because as long as he shields it (unless Luc is higher than he'd be from shorthopping) he gets a free grab.

Or a utilt.

*cries*

 

[hizzlum]

I just went to a tourney today and played a common tourney going lucario, and I beat him by these steps:
Heavy grab game, lucario's got great range but, DDD's grab range, leading to a bthrow and dthrow CG work wonders to rack up damage where lucario can not rack up that damage as consistently.

IMO waddle dee cancel out aura shperes and thus almsot remove that threat from the match, however watch out for a full charged one at lucario 100% off the stage

I believe from what I played today against a good tourney lucario player, DDD's edge game is supirior and can punish lucario recovery. I was able to get one bair while this guy was recovering on my omst of the time,(remeber airdodging a DDD bair will still get u hit, the biars out there for enough frames to punish an airdodger).

Both characters have good KO moves, but this match is all about % rack up and who get get the uptilt in DDD's case or the fsmash for lucario.

60:40 DDD imo from tourney expierience. Lucario is a great character, but sadly he has a rough time in this mtahc up facing a high % racking CG.

lol wolf pup TK, u went to CGC @ SFSU 3? I went there today to lol

 

[TK Wolf]

lol wolf pup TK, u went to CGC @ SFSU 3? I went there today to lol

Nope, I didn't go this week. I'm giving Brawl a break for an undecided amount of time.

 

[Timbers]

I have to disagree with you there. D3 loooooooooves when Lucario dairs, because as long as he shields it (unless Luc is higher than he'd be from shorthopping) he gets a free grab. Ftilt can be decent, but the range of D3's ftilt makes it hard to get in such a position. Nair is great for finishing combos, but if you use it on a grounded D3 and didn't hit him with a fair leading to the nair, or manage to fake him out, you will get grabbed before you even land.

That'd be a weird place for DDD to ftilt, assuming Luc was in ftilt position.

Still, not a move I like using in this match. Ftilt only barely outranges DDD's grabrange, and the tradeoff for DDD's grab is much better than Luc's ftilt. I wouldn't recommend being on the ground at all in this match unless you were setting up an fsmash.

 

[hizzlum]

That'd be a weird place for DDD to ftilt, assuming Luc was in ftilt position.

Still, not a move I like using in this match. Ftilt only barely outranges DDD's grabrange, and the tradeoff for DDD's grab is much better than Luc's ftilt. I wouldn't recommend being on the ground at all in this match unless you were setting up an fsmash.

Thats good that you pointed this out, cuz its something i forgot to talk about and should be noted: The CG threat DDD poses on lucario is great enopugh that lucario must find another form of approaching DDD, and that would be through the air, when I played lucarios at my recent tourney and looking at azen play m2k's DDD, lucario's best options in this match-ups are spaced aerials, yet at the same time DDD can counter this by a waddle dee and a low-to-ground WOP of bairs. Lucario's aerials are very good, so obviously a DDD must know this will be a threat in this match-up, so the options are the waddle dee/ftilt camp, or the very defensive/punishing DDD waiting with a sheild out for a time to CG and easily % up damage.
That being said, I regard this still as 60-40 DDD.

Also,m I played a good/decent metagame diddy at this CGC @SFSU tourney(feturing some of the best talent in norcal, one of the best smash communites in the US) and I found this match-up a lot easier than 40-60 diddy, my opponent was gilde tossing the **** out of me and then getting at me with his dash attack or grab, but I anwsered with Safe shield grab game and a good edgeguarding game to beat him diddy, unfortunaetly, he then swicthed to MK lol but thats another story. But I think maybe the diddy vs DDD match up is slightly closer than what is projected here(less than even so like iono 55-60 to 45-40 diddy?)
With that in mind I also thing that MK is a more difficult match up than what is projected here, just IMO

 

[TheWaft]

i still cant beat these stupid meta knight mains even with all of these things telling me how to. I can block tornado well, but just cant land my up tilt. all of his approaches are horizontal.

 

[hizzlum]

i still cant beat these stupid meta knight mains even with all of these things telling me how to. I can block tornado well, but just cant land my up tilt. all of his approaches are horizontal.

The only way to beat a great tourney going MK IMO, is to play really defensively with a solid shield grab game, many ftilts, some waddle dees, and for the kill a shield canceled dash uptilt will do it at around 110% if they have great DI, which is expected at tournaments. If MK ever does his dash attack, its almost a guaranteed bthrow, so waiting to punish is viable. Ftilt of DDD outranges most of MK's moves but not the shuttle and if the glide attack is shielded, you can pull off a throw. Also edge game is very difficult in this match against a skilled MK, so maybe a FF bair or a well timed fair will be the luckiest DDD gets in edge game. You cant camp completly, but the occasional toss of a waddle dee does some %, and a Doo or gordo can come out, which really helps. With that said MK is brokem(yet noy bannebale iMO) so regardles of advice DDD will need superb mindgames with strong attacks at low MK % to beat a dsmashing upbing and nadoing tourney MK

 

[Gates]

Sorry I didn't update earlier today, I was playing Chrono Trigger doing Thanksgiving stuff.

PIT DISCUSSION GO!

 

[jaaboy]

Just a few things i like to keep in mind while fighting pit
-he can gimp us
- you cant di towards pit through the holy ring(?)
-i find arrows are decently predictable actually, maybe its just the guy i fight
-if he uses his upB and you hit him he loses his jumps, so i find neutral air is actually good for this purpose as far as gimping him is concerned
-he has a nice fsmash(?)
-gordos do reflect but waddles dont
-ftilt is your friend

all that being said i suck

 

[Pr0phetic]

D3 beats Pit 65-35.

- D3 outranges Pit.
- Can be chaingrabbed.
- Can be gimped out of UpB fairly easily (Counterpick with FD, Yoshi's Island Brawl)
- WoP Bairs own
- May loose to arrows, but I feel Waddles can handle fairly well

 

[Afropony]

D3 beats Pit 65-35.

- D3 outranges Pit.
- Can be chaingrabbed.
- Can be gimped out of UpB fairly easily (Counterpick with FD, Yoshi's Island Brawl)
- WoP Bairs own
- May loose to arrows, but I feel Waddles can handle fairly well

D3 does not beat Pit 65-35

- Yes D3 does outrange Pit
- Pit can chaingrab D3
- Pit isn't going to use UPB unless he really has to. And FD would be a stupid stage to counterpick, Pit would outcamp you with arrows.
- Pit's WoP fairs work just as well as D3's WoP if not better
- Arrows work very well for a big target such as D3.
- Nair, Jab/s and Uair work very well on D3.
- Pit can use Uair while you are coming down from your UpB.

 

[Gates]

Admiral Bowser/Pit and I had the following AIM convo where he cleared up a lot of stuff about the matchup. He said he was gonna post something like this in the thread himself but he's taking too long.

GoldAdmiralPit (4:45:31 PM): I have heard that you brought attention that Dedede is discussing Pit now
RyanMartinGates (4:46:04 PM): yes
GoldAdmiralPit (4:46:26 PM): As one of their top Pit Brigadiers, I want to discuss it with you i suppose
RyanMartinGates (4:46:38 PM): honestly
RyanMartinGates (4:46:46 PM): I have little experience in the matchup
GoldAdmiralPit (4:47:32 PM): i see this matchup SLIGHTLY in Pit's favor
GoldAdmiralPit (4:47:36 PM): and im gonna start with the basics
RyanMartinGates (4:47:46 PM): ok
GoldAdmiralPit (4:48:02 PM): first off, I know Dedede outranges Pit and can be chaingrabbed (That hurts0
GoldAdmiralPit (4:48:17 PM): and sometimes can be gimped as well
GoldAdmiralPit (4:48:20 PM): but here's what Pit has
RyanMartinGates (4:48:36 PM): combos?
GoldAdmiralPit (4:49:01 PM): Now, in all honesty, Pit seems like he has the advantage over the large heavy chars, that includes Bowser, DK, Wario, possible Dedede and maybe Snake
GoldAdmiralPit (4:49:30 PM): a Pit's basic approach which works best against large heavy chars, is the SH (Shorthop) N-air
GoldAdmiralPit (4:50:04 PM): it's a Shield-pressuring move and since Dedede is big, it's hard to get outta it, though only great Dededes can Grab Pit outta this manuver
GoldAdmiralPit (4:50:38 PM): Pit can personally F-throw chaingrab Dedede to an extent, though D3's floatiness helps him resist some of it with DI
GoldAdmiralPit (4:50:49 PM): maybe 0-40 max without DI
RyanMartinGates (4:50:59 PM): I heard about that but didn't know the %s
GoldAdmiralPit (4:51:04 PM): followin me so far?
RyanMartinGates (4:51:06 PM): yeah
GoldAdmiralPit (4:51:40 PM): now, Dedede hates arrows a lot, a Pit can use em strategically against camping Dedede throwin waddles
GoldAdmiralPit (4:51:49 PM): like Sh-Arrows
RyanMartinGates (4:52:17 PM): yeah, your arrows are basically Falco's lasers for the purposes of camping
GoldAdmiralPit (4:52:45 PM): now remember Dedede is big, so Pit can really get around the penguin with quick movement, and Pit's F-airs and F-tilt are his melee range
GoldAdmiralPit (4:53:09 PM): when a Dedede gets knocked off the stage, Pit can choose to shoot arrows to eat up penguin's jumps
GoldAdmiralPit (4:53:29 PM): that's the basic thing a Pit should do, another thing he can do is pursue with F-airs or something
GoldAdmiralPit (4:53:55 PM): Now, when Dedede uses Up-B, a smart Pit will track the location of which the move goes to, and then can B-air him for the kill, as i have done before
GoldAdmiralPit (4:54:53 PM): Dedede's real defense lies within Long stages for chaingrabs, and long range, and being heavy, but Pit is still able to pressure quite well on heavys in general
GoldAdmiralPit (4:55:05 PM): And as for Stage Counterpicks
GoldAdmiralPit (4:55:15 PM): we Pits can use Norfair, for it is our best stage
RyanMartinGates (4:55:27 PM): really?
GoldAdmiralPit (4:55:29 PM): well, counterpick that is
RyanMartinGates (4:55:37 PM): I didn't know that but it makes sense
GoldAdmiralPit (4:55:47 PM): The small platforms will weaken Dedede chaingrab effects
GoldAdmiralPit (4:56:01 PM): a Pit can go under platforms camp quite easily and deliver U-airs from below a lot
RyanMartinGates (4:56:32 PM): yeah, you don't have to explain Norfair to me
GoldAdmiralPit (4:56:42 PM): hurray for Norfair ^_^
RyanMartinGates (4:56:44 PM): Metaknight is my sub and I CP it ALL THE TIME lol
GoldAdmiralPit (4:57:39 PM): now maybe we can ban walk-off stages, Castle Siege's 2nd part, Bridge of Eldin and other places with walls
RyanMartinGates (4:57:58 PM): Bridge is banned almost everywhere
GoldAdmiralPit (4:58:17 PM): and a reminder that Pit is one of the Best gimpers in the game, and is exceptional at ledgecamping in the right hands
RyanMartinGates (4:58:29 PM): I was gonna ask about ledgecamping
GoldAdmiralPit (4:58:34 PM): same goes for edgeguarding
RyanMartinGates (4:58:51 PM): so is it like ROB level ledge***gotry?
GoldAdmiralPit (4:59:02 PM): ah yes, Pit's ledgecamping game is great, arrow after arrow, can Mirror Shield if he wants, or reach with F-airs or maybe U-air if ur close
GoldAdmiralPit (4:59:33 PM): smart Pits can do a swift B-air if u r close then get back in to the battle, just because Pit can be chaingrabbed dont make him easy
GoldAdmiralPit (5:00:37 PM): they havent fought a good Pit, and thats what they need to know, good Pits i know of are Rogue Pit, best Pit on the WC known as Sagemoon, and well, Im better than average
GoldAdmiralPit (5:01:59 PM): Pit may not need Power to win, he's just great at alternate ways of takin down his opponents like Arrow gimps, Mirror Shield gimps (not recommended vs Dedede) and umm, pressuring tactics, like N-airs, and infinite jab
GoldAdmiralPit (5:02:16 PM): He also counters almost every heavy char around
RyanMartinGates (5:02:29 PM): yeah, definitely
RyanMartinGates (5:02:44 PM): I'm going to post this in the thread btw
GoldAdmiralPit (5:02:48 PM): if u ask me its either 60-40 Pit or 55-45 Pit
GoldAdmiralPit (5:02:54 PM): ill give the reasons in there myself
RyanMartinGates (5:02:57 PM): k
GoldAdmiralPit (5:03:12 PM): BTW, Dedede B-airs hurt poor Pit a lot, faced a spammy one doin that, quite hard
RyanMartinGates (5:03:26 PM): lol bair is insane
GoldAdmiralPit (5:03:36 PM): yes, and so is our ledgecamp game
RyanMartinGates (5:03:42 PM): touche
GoldAdmiralPit (5:05:19 PM): we can switch to Offensive pressuring N-airs to camping in various ways
RyanMartinGates (5:05:37 PM): yeah, Pit is very versatile
RyanMartinGates (5:05:55 PM): reminds me of Toon Link to be honest
GoldAdmiralPit (5:06:06 PM): BTW, we can reflect ur Gordos
RyanMartinGates (5:06:11 PM): I know
RyanMartinGates (5:06:20 PM): can you reflect Waddle Doo beams?
GoldAdmiralPit (5:06:23 PM): yes
RyanMartinGates (5:06:27 PM): huh
RyanMartinGates (5:06:29 PM): k

 

[Mikey7]

Dedede has a clear advantage lol...sh nair = shieldgrabbed or easily punished because Dedede's shield is huge, taking away jumps with arrows...I've never actually experienced that but I don't see how it wouldn't be avoidable with airdodges. What does Pit have vs Dedede on the stage lol...subpar aerials, terrible pokes, and power-shieldable arrows (very easy to powershield, its not like lasers at all).

Bair and ftilt **** and everytime Pit tries to put pressure on, hes really easy to shieldgrab. Last time I played a Pit, he killed me at 220% every time (and yes it was a GOOD Pit, don't give me that he was a scrub stuff) so really does a 40% cg even matter?

Also lol at that guy saying Pit is good vs Snake...just lol, I got a good laugh out of that.

 

[cj.Shark]

Also lol at that guy saying Pit is good vs Snake...just lol, I got a good laugh out of that.

for the most part it is true. most snake mains that ive talked to seem to go both ways in the matchup. but for the most part one thing stands out. "snakes absolutely hate playing against Pits" not because its a hard matchup but rather a long and miserable one. technically if pit was to ledgecamp with WoI'd ledgegrabs and UPair+arrows galore most snakes would be shut down as there is pretty much no universal counter. Snakes recovery is also a big iffy. for sure pits multiple jumps come in handy for knocking snake off his cypher and whatnot. for the most part the entire games goes like this. Pit fires arrows until snake comes to close range. Pit either A gets a grab off and throws snake off the map or pit is knocked away. if he is knocked away from the stage he can simply ledgecamp until snake is a considerable distance. or if he is knocked the other way he can resort back to shooting arrows and waiting for snake to apporach.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Pit is harder than one thinks, and i seen such biased posts that of which Rukkiko has posted, seen similar underestimation of Pit in the Marth Boards before, sigh....

As an all-time Pit mainer and veteran I will discuss some of the matchup.

For starters, Pit is seriously outranged by Dedede, and that's real obvious.
Dedede is strong and could KO Pit somewhat fast, and gimp his recovery quite well with some annoying B-airs. Yes, B-airs hurt poor Pit really well.
You Can chaingrab Pit, but Pit can also Chaingrab Dedede. However, most Pits wouldnt go for their F-throw chaingrab (percentage from 0-40% approximately) since D3's CG is more threatening. This doesnt mean that the Pit Wont use his throws, which help the Pit with spacing and such.

Dedede is big and strong, but his Size helps Pit out really well. Now to Pit's part.
Pit is a character that does really well against larger opponents thanks to his capabilities. So let's start the discussion.

Pit can approach wtih SH N-airs, and since Dedede is big, it's harder to avoid it. You could shieldgrab Pit but it will be hard unless u know Pit quite well, and can get him after the N-air hitbox, which is an 8-hit move. Time it right and quickly and you can grab Pit outta the N-air. Do be careful that when a Pit performs his SH N-airs, after all the 8 hitboxes of the move are done, Pit can touch the ground quickly to Auto-cancel the move, and avoid landing lag. He is capable of doing another quick SH N-air if you're not fast enough to get him.

Pit can annoy Dedede's Recovery quite well with simple arrows. He can arrow away and taking down your jumps like he can against basically every other character. As said before, because D3 is large, it makes Pit's arrow targeting much easier.
If Dedede is forced to Up-B, a smart and patient Pit can track the whereabouts of the Dedede Up-B, and aim a B-air for the kill. This may force Dedede to stop his Up-B quickly before the Pit can get up there and strike.

Sometimes I see some D3s roll around and sidestep to make attempts to perform their little CG with FIXED Knockback. To stop this, Pit has his infinite jab, which is already good against larger targets as it is. However, D3 does have the range to outprioritize it and hit Pit directly with a spaced Fsmash. Pit's Infinite Jab will also keep Waddle Dees at bay.
On occasions, I also see a D3 making attempts to camp with the Waddles in a different attempt to get their opponent come to them and CG em. Bad idea. This might work against chars like Bowser or maybe some1 else with no projectile, but a Pit can just punish the lag of the Waddle Dee toss with Arrows. He can SH them to get over the Dees and hit D3.

Here are other things you must be aware of.
Pit is exceptional at Gimping, Edgeguarding, and Ledgecamping.

Pit's way of Ledgecamp is one of the best. He can shoot arrow after arrow, and by using his multiple jumps, and Up-B near the ledge to quickly grab on to it, his Ledgecamping game is a force to be reckoned with. He can choose to bombard the stage with arrows, or if you're close, Pit can reach out with F-air, or if you are even closer, he can go down and come back up with a U-air, or stab you with a sweetspotted B-air. A Pit can also quickly draw out his Mirror Shield for reflecting purposes, better to be used on a different matchup.
Let's round up Pit's ledgecamping options
-Shoot arrows at long range
-Reach with F-air
-If nearby, can use U-air or Stab with sweetspot B-air
-Quickly draw Mirror Shield (better off on a certain matchup)
-Use Up-B to not only "Wingpush" opponent away (can push Snake's Grenades away), and quickly regrab ledge
-Fly back to perform a glide. He may just shoot an arrow
-On certain stages, ability to glide to other side.
-Quick Airdodge
-Quickly get back on the stage while doing Angel Ring

As you can see, Pit is very versatile in his Ledgecamping. Picking certain stages will either strengthen, weaken, or neutralize some options listed above.


Against a Pit, you should use some B-airs. Not only do they outprioritize basically every Pit move, but it's hitbox also makes it an ideal move to Gimp Pit, and hit him outta his glide. They also destroy arrows.

Be warned though. A Pit might take you to one of his best CP stages, which is Norfair. Not only will it weaken your Chaingrab abilities, but it enhances Pit's Ledgecamp and stalling capabilities. He can use those platforms, and can stay under them when Pit is used properly. Pit can fly around under the stages and deliver U-airs from platform to platform. He can still shoot arrows at will, and reach with F-air.

If you ask me, This would be 55-45 Pit's favor.
Sure Dedede gots more range, can stay alive a while with his weight and can even Chaingrab Pit, but Dedede is a big target for Pit and his pressuring capabilities, and since Pit is better at pressuring large targets, there are many possible follow ups of his moves. Expect some SH N-airs and arrows to be used against you. I suppose one thing you must know how to do is Time and Shieldgrab Pit outta his SH N-airs.

And Dont assume that every Pit is the same. Pit is one of the most versatile chars in the game and different Pit players play differently.
You can ask other Pit's opinion on this. I just feel that Pit's pressuring abilities and Ledgecamp can hurt Dedede really well, and besides, Pit does seemingly well at pressuring other large chars like DK, Bowser, Wario, Link, Ike, Ganondorf, and even Snake, and the 3 main things are SH N-airs, Arrows, and Pit's excellent Ledgecamping ability.
So again, 55-45 Pit's favor IMO.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

“What do you mean Falco can outcamp King Dedede? Waddle Dees block the lasers!”

“What? Gates, you can’t be serious, Dededecide will rarely work and there’s no effing way I’m going to incorporate it into my gameplan,” you’re saying to yourself right now.

Somthing about those... made me lol..... Hard.

 

[cj.Shark]

food for thought
from the marth chaingrab thread

yeah its possible. Its harder than everyone except pit.

IMO pit using up+b to escape is much harder than marth.

 

[TheWaft]

D3 outranges pit in like every single attack he has so yeah..... bye.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Am I the only one that's giving out detailed information here? (see post #271)

 

[cj.Shark]

D3 outranges pit in like every single attack he has so yeah..... bye.

d3 outranges IC in every single attack. therefore d3 must have an advanatge over IC right? RIGHT?

 

[Admiral Pit]

Apparently one of the major problems that I see here are the lack of players contributing to this matchup. As I have seen on a few other boards, not many contribute when discussing Pit, or just become bias and usually say they have the advantage over him and exaggerate the numbers (Marth Boards are currently the worst that i seen) and I'm not pleased at all.
Stop underestimating the angel just because about 75% of the Pit population are noobish spammers, and show him some respect.
Now continue the Pit vs D3 Matchup discussion! I suppose my post up there as well as Gate's in the previous page are the only 2 good posts that I see about this matchup...

 

[CO18]

I dont have time for big informative posts lol but Admiral Bowser explained it pretty well.
But its not that easy for Pit to gimp D3 imo, just airdodge each of his arrows and mindgame with your up+b recovery.

However D3's range and KO power that combined with him having a good chance of gimping pit at low percents is why I think its in D3's favor either 55:45 or 60:40.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Both chars can gimp each other well. Sadly, Pit is outranged by like over 3/4 of the cast (maybe not Kirby or Jiggz), but he still has great Shield-pressuring moves like Infinite Air and Angel Ring, though a spaced Dedede can hit Pit outta it.
D3 is still somewhat slow, not as slow as few heavyweights, but still slow.
In addition, the penguin is one of the largest chars in the game along with Bowser, and DK, thus making him very easy to hit.

Pit could ledgecamp a D3 decently, though not as good as he can camp a DK. It's Dedede's Waddle Dees and good recovery (which he can use to pursue Pit from behind) that make it somewhat less effective.

I do understand that Pit can be gimped easily even at low percentages, that hurts, and I have experienced that. Do remember about Pit being somewhat quick, and is one of the harder chars to CG, though it can be done. That hurts too

But still, Pit is one of the quicker chars with pressuring movements, it's Pit's multi-hitbox attacks (especially infinite jab) and arrows in some way that will trouble BIG target Dedede. Pit might be able to chain up some F-airs if you're not careful, and if you can't Shieldgrab SH N-airs properly, then you're already onto the road of hurt.

I may have to switch this to 50-50 even, but the further I'll go is 55-45 Pit's favor, and Thnx for not being as Biased as the Marth boards were. 65-35 Marth they said before... yea right. Pit is honestly underestimated too much.
Sagemoon, best Pit of the WC did say something about saying this is an even matchup as well. Try looking for Rogue Pit as well.

 

[Mikey7]

Pit CANNOT ledgecamp Dedede well at all...all you have to do is sit on the edge and if he jumps far out, grab the ledge and bair off it, or just grab him if hes too close...or just ff bair stage spike which would probably end up in a gimp.

Dedede's shield is huge, nair isn't going through it while its full lol.

You can chain as much fairs as you want, I'm not dying til 170% lol.

Pit's gimpability just adds more to Dedede's advantage.

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