Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[Snail]

^ Also, I think dthrow-fsmash-dthrow-hyphen smash-uair is a true combo on D3. Could be wrong though, but...

 

[DanGR]

oh yeah^ I forget to talk about the combos.

dthrow is his main combo starter. At low percents, dthrow>fair, dthrow>upsmash> and dthrow>fsmash are true combos on DDD. The dthrow can string into more grabs>dthrows, fsmashes>grabs, upsmashes>upairs.

DDD has trouble for two reasons:
1.)his second jump isn't very high- this makes it easier to hit him if he tries to jump out of dthrow combo>______ combos.
2.)his fair nor dair can stop Olimar's combos very easily- sometimes characters have attacks that will interrupt his grab game and/or can stop his combos. (such as sheik or Luigi's nairs) DDD doesn't really have anything.

 

[napZzz]

Olimar combos the hell outta DDD....

 

[mikeHAZE]

Does that mean he is quitting?

And also I would like to see ur vid of you beating aero, cuz it would help this thread a ton, as both of you are top notch pros that are ranked in socal and in the west coast.

And it would be nice if I could see 2 high level players(DDD and a marth) doing the SCG CG with DDD on marth, so there is evidence of the SCG CG DDD can be peformed on marth.
I thought it was not pssible to do cuz cuba is death and I were talking about 2 weeks ago and he said that it was not worth it, but when I talked to him this week he said it was realistic.

Also I brought up the video beacuse one poster said idiots get stage spiked by marth, so I had to prove him wrong on that assumption.

And lastly do you aggree that this match-up is 45-55 DDD?

nah i think dedede ***** marth, aero just sucks against marth for whatever reason.

Lets discuss TEBA, i'm not sure how many of you know about him, but he's the best d3 on the west coast. he ***** me. after i beat aero, i thought i would have a chance against teba, but i got destroyed, like double two stocked lmao, and it's not that i'm a bad player, just that dedede ***** marth, or at least, he ***** my style of marth (but up to this date no marth has beaten teba :o)

idk i had to switch falco lmao, i think the matchup is largely in favor of dedede sir. I have to space perfectly the entire match, if not it's pretty much a few grabs and i'm done (so don't mispace, right?) but even then i can just get Power shielded and get grabbed.

 

[Mikey7]

Hizzlum you tell me if what Aero did was smart there...I worded my claim like that for emphasis lol, you shouldn't take it so literally, I don't try to insult anyone.

I've played Olimar once...so I can't really contribute to the discussion but I do know that Dedede has a hard time approaching in general so hes at a big disadvantage, I think it might be wise to counterpick against a campy Olimar. Has anyone tried dair camping? Not many Olimars in Canada...loads of MKs though lol.

 

[jaaboy]

uptilt kills pikmin easily usually, i find. I typically end up killing half the time with uair...also gimping of course. I try to watch for when he has the least pikmin to really try to gimp him because that means decreased length of tether recovery. Also sometimes if you get a cocky olimar who tries to kill you without pikmin right after he respawns, you can try to stay close and throw him off into another gimp.

 

[PinkPwnageFrenzy]

Ah, if only it were that easy, jaaboy. Good Olimar players don't just let you just kill their Pikmin, they usually restock as soon as possible after they do lose one. I only rarely play against Olis, but they're tough stuff.

 

[Foursaken]

This match up is hard, but definitely winnable. It's been said before, but D3 must approach, there simply is no another option. Olimar simply outcamps D3, and if you try to fight fire with fire, you will lose. However, approaching can be a problem since all Olimar has to do is run around throwing pikmin or reverse pivot grab to mess you up. Play smart and poke around with your F tilt, but be cautious as I believe white pikmin rival that range as well, if not beat it. And if you get grabbed at low percentages, expect a fair amount of damage. Seriously, Olimar can combo D3 to hell and back, and most of the time you'll be starting a stock with around 30 - 50 damage if this happens. On the flip side, when you snag a grab, get to tech chasing. It's one of your strongest damage builders in this match up. Use common sense! If you down throw while both of you are near the center of the stage, chances are, they will roll away. If you down throw them towards the ledge, expect a roll back as most players don't want to be put in such a disadvantageous position. And what a horrid position this is for Olimar players! Once Olimar is off the stage, he should lose a stock. That should be your main goal every time. Don't let him come back! Bair all day long! Remember Olimar has a tether recovery, so if your attempting a ledge hog and your invincibility frames have worn off, be aware that this will stage spike. Tech it if your super pro, if not, your gambling a stock. High risk, high reward, how you choose to gimp Olimar is up to you.

All in all, D3 is definitely at a disadvantage. Is it major? Not with a little match up experience.

60/40, Olimar's favor.

But then again, that's the beauty of D3. Even with a good amount of match ups in the opponents favor, they're all winnable. Play smart, and you can go toe to toe with any, and all of them.

 

[Fogo]

Post.

haha my boy foreskin handling business, good ****.

Also in referrence to the match-up discussion, check this vid out of me vs. Tx's best olimar for visual performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrIZnIMflA8

 

[napZzz]

Tis impossible just avoid the match up T_T you cant do anything vs. a campy defensive olimar, and he has all these ******** grab combos that can rack up damage INSANELY fast if he latches you with side b pikmin and ends with an aerial.

 

[German Wolf]

Olimar is overpowered deformed child. He´s so unfair. If you don´t play carefully, he can combo you over 100% in a second. uAir does 24%(!) when he attacks with a yellow pikmin. And when you play defensive, his attack power increases even more by the time because of the pimkins abiltity. Poor Dedede has a little chance to beat him and I hope Olmar will be dropped rom SSB4.

 

[CO18]

Im fairly good in the olimar matchup now, just had to play a really good olimar in the finals of a tourney yesterday.

Basically I stay in the air and spam bair to approach them then when I get near them I fastfall airdodge and try to grab them and get them off stage to edgeguard or I b-reversal in anticipation of them trying to shield grab.

Ftilt is the best ground approach because it knocks away pikmen flying at you and outranges his grab and fsmash but i still prefer staying in the air because they can get around that and if he grabs you youre likely to take a chunk of %

I would say its 60/40 or 65/35 for olimar but its definitley winnable, its just really frustrating and you have to play a certain way or youll get camped and grab spammed.

 

[DanGR]

Olimar is overpowered deformed child. He´s so unfair. If you don´t play carefully, he can combo you over 100% in a second. uAir does 24%(!) when he attacks with a yellow pikmin. And when you play defensive, his attack power increases even more by the time because of the pimkins abiltity. Poor Dedede has a little chance to beat him and I hope Olmar will be dropped rom SSB4.

-red upair does 24%, not yellow
-100% in 1 second is unrealistic- 90% in 5sec. is.
-buds and flowers don't do anything
-there will be no SSB4

 

[Taiki]

Best way i've found to combat olimars is to be as aggressive as possible. You have to be ruthless and take any opportunity to gimp. My advice is if the olimar your playing loves to jump and spam side-b take that as an invitation to run in and grab him, get him off the ledge and bair to no end. Run through the spam to opt for punishment. The only time you should stop is to get rid of a white pikmin, those tiny beasts rip through your damage meter. Luckily a quick up-tilt kills all pikmin on you.

You also must remember to observe their pikmin line. If they have a white they're most likely either going to grab or throw. Purple is an attempt to kill upwards or a throw. ETC.

 

[CO18]

Best way i've found to combat olimars is to be as aggressive as possible. You have to be ruthless and take any opportunity to gimp. My advice is if the olimar your playing loves to jump and spam side-b take that as an invitation to run in and grab him, get him off the ledge and bair to no end. Run through the spam to opt for punishment. The only time you should stop is to get rid of a white pikmin, those tiny beasts rip through your damage meter. Luckily a quick up-tilt kills all pikmin on you.

You also must remember to observe their pikmin line. If they have a white they're most likely either going to grab or throw. Purple is an attempt to kill upwards or a throw. ETC.

I need to do this lol,i dont study random things enough and I never took the time to learn what each pikmen does with olimar etc.

 

[Gates]

Regarding Pikmin colors and what they do exactly: I will write a [very] brief summary of what each color of pikmin is used for and also provide a link to the Olimar forums' pikmin guide when I writeup the matchup. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it though because during the camping/damage dealing phase of Olimar's gameplan, which is what they'll be doing most of the time against Dedede since he's so hard to kill, the specific color doesn't really matter (Olimar players, correct me if I'm wrong on this).

 

[Tero.]

*subscribes*

 

[napZzz]

haha my boy foreskin handling business, good ****.

Also in referrence to the match-up discussion, check this vid out of me vs. Tx's best olimar for visual performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrIZnIMflA8

good **** fogo. You missed quit a few edge hog chances tho ~_~ needed more bthrow instead of constant fthrows...or whatever one puts them off stage. Looks like you figured that out at the end of the match

 

[Fogo]

good **** fogo. You missed quit a few edge hog chances tho ~_~ needed more bthrow instead of constant fthrows...or whatever one puts them off stage. Looks like you figured that out at the end of the match

It was a friendly so i promised him i wouldn't gimp lol


but i didn't say i wouldn't put the fear in him

 

[hizzlum]

It was a friendly so i promised him i wouldn't gimp lol


but i didn't say i wouldn't put the fear in him

ya dude real men dont gimp there friend's olimar at friendlies, its unsportsmanlike, lol.
I actually think this match-up is pretty close, but leaning on olimar's side cuz of DDD's lack of CG on him, yet he gets easier utilt kills, so iono honestly, also people when looking at this thread go to my boards for counterpick info after you know what the match-up will be like on this board. lol

 

[napZzz]

hmm my opinion of this match up has changed...55/45 IMO. Olis short roll leads to easy tech chasing...plus if your smart you can get easy gimps and edge hogs...idk. I hate how he can do those retardedly huge combos on you tho, But I guess if your smart you can kinda avoid them.

and fogo I meant to say constant DTHROWS my bad -___-

 

[CO18]

hmm my opinion of this match up has changed...55/45 IMO. Olis short roll leads to easy tech chasing...plus if your smart you can get easy gimps and edge hogs...idk. I hate how he can do those retardedly huge combos on you tho, But I guess if your smart you can kinda avoid them.

and fogo I meant to say constant DTHROWS my bad -___-

naw its not 55:45 prob 60:40 though.

Its really a momentum matchup but he can just do more with his spam, grab, combos etc.

Plus the olimar can just tech the down throw and grab you instead instantly if they time it right so you have to mix it up after the down throw.

Even then its still closer to 65:35 but i may just be a little biased. But i play this olimar quite a bit thats basically mastered his recovery and i can gimp him 95% of the time its strange. hes the only olimar that makes this matchup feel that bad to me

 

[napZzz]

naw its not 55:45 prob 60:40 though.

Its really a momentum matchup but he can just do more with his spam, grab, combos etc.

Plus the olimar can just tech the down throw and grab you instead instantly if they time it right so you have to mix it up after the down throw.

Even then its still closer to 65:35 but i may just be a little biased. But i play this olimar quite a bit thats basically mastered his recovery and i can gimp him 95% of the time its strange. hes the only olimar that makes this matchup feel that bad to me

Well...if they camp I think its 60 40 ~_~

an aggresive olimar can get pwned easy.

 

[DanGR]

during the camping/damage dealing phase of Olimar's gameplan the specific color doesn't really matter.

Ah, a common misconception. It does matter. The pikmin color matters in every situation you're in- that is if the Olimar player knows what he's doing and knows how to use each pikmin as efficiently and effectively as possible. If you're looking to be fairly advanced in fighting against Olimar, you need to look at which pikmin in the line is where and understand that the line and your movements will sway an Olimar players future decisions. If you don't, you're hurting yourself. You could save yourself matches by knowing which pikmin in Olimar's pikmin repitoire do what.

-Purples will knock you backwards, (6% damage) letting us throw more pikmin. If you're close enough, we may go for the grab- similar to Diddy following up his peanut gun in a way. Many opponents don't see the purple and so we get a free 6%, time to pluck any pikmin we need, gain stage positioning, and maybe follow up on the set knockback that you recieve from the purple pikmin.

-Whites arc considerably lower, but fly faster and farther, making them considerably easier to aim and land for the Oli user. They should be giving you, the DDD player, much more of an incentive to attack them because of how much damage they rack. (up to 60% undiminished, or 6% per latch hit) With that in mind, we'll be looking for a grab more often after throwing a white. You should be able to recognize this.

-Yellows arc higher and fly a shorter distance, making them harder to land. Something I personally like to do is jump higher when I'm about to throw a yellow. This will help me get some extra distance on the throw. If the Olimar player isn't very advanced and just throws the yellow normally, a missed yellow may give you a little more breathing room. And maybe just enough time to SHnair to kill a pikmin that's on you? You've still got to fear getting punished though.

-Blue and Reds are normal. They fly the same distance as each other and give the same damage as yellows per latch hit. There aren't any significant advantages/disadvantages reds/blues have when camping.

I've got a guide to camping with Olimar. Check it out if you're interested.

 

[lain]

dedede ***** olimar. next matchup plz.

 

[Mmac]

Well... Us Yoshi's are discussing Dedede for our first discussion of the new matchup, so Yoshi might be a good time to start this week. The general ratio seems to be around the 55:45 Area (In Dedede's Favour), but there's also alot of talk being dead even 50:50...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201922

 

[Excellence]

dedede ***** olimar. next matchup plz.

The inverse is true.

 

[Gates]

dedede ***** olimar. next matchup plz.

lol wut?

Well anyway, Olimar is done for now.
DIDDY KONG DISCUSSION GO!

 

[ADHD]

dedede is a very easy for me now :D

The only way dedede can win is his grab. gay gimps straight from a chaingrab are very good if you can pull them off, you may have to practice that because it can totally alter the outcome of a diddy vs dedede match. For those of you who say "catch the bananas" good luck with that because glide tossing can cause a different timing and spacing for dedede to catch them, so it's best not to try that XD

 

[Mmac]

I see we're not wanted

 

[Gates]

@ Mmac - Don't feel bad, I'm sure plenty of Dededes will be willing to help out the Yoshi forum's matchup thread. At the same time though, we're not going to derail our matchup thread to help you with yours (In fact, I would rather you had created a seperate thread for your announcement). I don't mean to be offensive and I hope you can understand this.

@ ChromePirate - About a month ago, you wrote this.

This matchup is annoying for the king and I have experience on both sides, at least enough to help anyone.

Pros: You **** him offstage. You're heavy, and difficult to KO for diddy. You have far better range. Your grabs are very valuable and can stop him in his tracks. You're utilt kills him at 100ish, Fsmash at ridiculously dumb percents. Inhale is good but situational.

Cons: He's agile, and difficult to hit. You get ***** onstage by bananas. You cannot simply hop over everything, because the peanut gun and fair will take care of that. Hard to land the KO finisher. No glide toss (massive disadvantage.) Fat, easily combo'd. Damage racks up FAST on you. You get pressured like hell and it can get to your head.

His recovery: This is where d3 has the biggest advantage, d3 ***** diddy's up b with any aerial. If you can predict when he's going to side B to recover, then you can aerial it (he can use his side b again, so keep hitting him until he is forced to use his up b.) Your up b meteor spike ***** his rocket barrels, you spike him, and the barrels hit you and keep you to survive. Keep this in mind, because the meteor spike can come in handy if you're both recovering offstage.

Onstage: Onstage, I'm sorry but you're going to be playing very carefully and slow. Diddy ***** d3 alot because the bananas are so difficult for d3 to get around since he's fat as hell and he doesn't have a glide toss (I don't think he does, even if he does its garbage). Chaingrab him. Without the chaingrab, this matchup would be ridiculously difficult but you can even it out with this simple thing. Chaingrab him offstage at any opportunity you possibly have. Suppose there is a banana in the way of your chaingrab, just throw him backwards and pick it up.

If he dash attacks into your shield, his dash attack is lagless so he can even grab you or upsmash you if you dare to shield grab him. So shield grab very carefully after the last kick of his dash attack. Now, you will be dealing with his glide tossing alot, he will follow a glide toss with grabs, dash attacks most commonly, Fsmashes, dsmash, and anything else really. If you shield the glide tossed banana roll backwards, since you will be pressured like hell he will probably grab you if you're shielding.

Diddy cannot kill you from afar, and if he wants to camp you with his peanut gun (which is viable because you can't approach him very easily) then camp waddle dees and airdodge pick up the peanuts. Instead of picking the bananas up with your dash attack or pressing A while walking, full hop dair picks them up right off the ground safely without the expense of being punished by tripping. Ftilt is very good onstage because of its range especially if he doesn't have a banana in his hand. You have to grab him alot if he's in his crazy naner mode to get him away so you can pick up the bananas. Inhale can stop him from following up a far away glide toss and can dispose of some bananas far away but if you use it wrong, you will be severely punished. When he's on the ledge, use the full hop dair just a bit more to stop him from getting back up.

Offstage: **** his recovery, bair is the best choice I think because of its long-lasting hitbox (kindof) and if he tries to side B the weaker hit may hit him. He can get back on the stage from even a full WoP so if he's getting back to the ledge and aiming his rocket barrels towards it, use an nair to interupt it so he falls down and then edgehog again.

DI'ing his fsmash: You will most likely get fsmashed from a successfully landed glide toss from up close so keep it in mind that if you are very observant you can DI it. You hold towards him you're caught in it close to his body, and if you're far away, DI up and away. This makes it not able to kill you if successfully DI'd and negates some of the damage.

Good stages: Lylat cruise is good because the stage can gimp his recovery alone by it moving haha. Rainbow cruise (don't need to explain this, just watch out for the spikes), smashville is okay because it's hard for him to combo you into oblivion, and he has less room to camp and space himself away from you. Yoshi's island is great, that platform interfers with his bananas.

Bad stages: Fd, he combos you like crazy on here and it's difficult to get in close. Battlefield is okay, but it can be harder to avoid the bananas.

That's all I got really, just watch out for his dsmash it's the best option to kill you. This matchup is very difficult but if you know how to handle it I'd say it's almost even but diddy still has the advantage you just really have to get him
offstage.

Good diddy vs d3 videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkJ5z_IOkeE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4shH1TL4LmY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po2tmufbFDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KGHnPIlE8A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99TPAANzHio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB5YsngjA6c

Do you think it still applies for the matchup?

 

[Oblivinati]

ftilt like your life depends on it imo

 

[bschung]

Huh, no one discussed stages for Olimar. Please continue discussing stages in this thread... it's far better than the alternative

Anyway, when the Diddy has a banana peel in his hand and one near his feet, or otherwise easy access to two banana peels, I stay just outside of his effective range (which is rather large), and bait out his approach. If he tries to shoot you with peanuts, you can try catching them and all that but you can throw your waddles in a high arc, and they'll just go right through the peanut.

If you get a hold of a banana peel, I'd suggest throwing it upwards rather than offstage or at him or on the floor. This keeps the banana peel alive longer and potentially away from Diddy. Put it in a dumb spot like the top platform of battlefield where it'd be relatively easy to punish him if he actually went up there to get it. Having a peel alive in a useless spot can keep him from pulling out another one. The more you can keep him from having two peels, the better.

As soon as i see the opening (i.e. he does not have good access to two banana peels) it's chasing and chaingrabs time. I'd try not to give him any space to bring out more banana peels. If you're CGing him and you find yourself getting closer to a peel on the ground, look at his percentage to see whether or not you can safely pummel to slow the CG down so as to give enough time to let the banana peel disappear. A peel on a low platform can make you slip too. If you can't CG safely because of a peel in the way, CG up to the peel, and most of your options are still quite good - after your last throw, pick up the peel.

Then, once you get him offstage, it's gravy. You know what to do. Don't forget that your up-B spikes his up-B and lets you up-B again!

In addition to his d-air, his up-B can spike you, watch out for that especially on Delfino, Halberd, Rainbow Cruise. His up-B comes out very fast.

Probably ban Final Destination. Based on what he bans, go Rainbow Cruise or Castle Siege. Anyone know offhand how bad Diddy's wall game can be?

Chrome, i too am interested in what you now think about your own thread from back then. I have to thank you since that thread basically helped me to own Dapuffster's diddy a while back when i had much less experience in the matchup

Anyway I've heard some say they think diddy has the advantage, I personally am skeptical of that. If you play impatiently, and get pissed and continually rush at him when he's got his banana peel fortress up, then it's true you will probably get wrecked. Just take your time and don't approach until there is a real opening, don't give him any breathing room. but back off when he's got his banana peels again. Dedede has more stages that are advantageous to him than vice versa.

 

[ADHD]

oh hey bsc, come to princeton on te 22nd and you can get your dedede vs diddy practice, diddy ***** dedede 60-40 in diddy's favor let me get what our boards have discussed.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638

Whatever you do just always ban FD, theres not much dedede can do that doesn't get predictable so you're going to have to work some magic in and find some way to keep your strategies fresh against him. The thing is you have to stop diddy completely before he gets his bananas out, then you do pretty good. Just don't get cocky you can get utilted to 40 percent damage from 0 nanerless anyway.

My thread vs diddy helps I suppose, but it's not like diddy is a clear cut matchup at all. He has alot to mix things up at times just like samus in melee.

 

[bschung]

Cool, I'm definitely going to be there on the 22nd. If we don't meet in brackets we should get friendlies in

 

[CO18]

I think it depends alot on playstyle and this is a very momentum based matchup.

Either way, I believe its 6:4 for diddy.

 

[ADHD]

Cool, I'm definitely going to be there on the 22nd. If we don't meet in brackets we should get friendlies in

nice, too many ppl to friendly XD

 

[JST]

If D3 has a banana lying along his CG trajectory, he can Dthrow Diddy right into the banana for a free dash attack or maybe even Fsmash.

Many lulz.

I personally think 45:55 or 4:6 Diddy (3:7 on FD lol). Diddy needs to play more patiently, but he can still combo D3 into next week (Sad to say, but D3 has waaaaayy too much trouble dealing with bananas - he doesn't have any good attacks to pick them up quickly, he doesn't have a glide-toss, and his only good set-up with them is situational. Furthermore, he's a massive target, and slow, so there's isn't much he can do to keep up with Diddy). However, Diddy can have a ton of trouble killing D3 unless he saves those smashes. D3 hits harder, outranges, and sorta outprioritizes Diddy in every aspect except for bananas and that weird-*** Side-B sexkick, and there's also the notion inevitable shield-grab, AND he can kill Diddy decently early. D3 can also kinda hamper bananas and interrupt Diddy's momentum a slight bit by tossing Waddles at him. Just do it sparingly because D3 is ridiculously vulnerable after throwing a Doo.

 

[T3h Albino]

I swear this matchup is ****** but can be won by using diddy's n4n3rz against him set up fsmash and utilts with the bananas to get kills and dont let him grab you and you'll be fine

 

[jaaboy]

I swear this matchup is ****** but can be won by using diddy's n4n3rz against him set up fsmash and utilts with the bananas to get kills and dont let him grab you and you'll be fine

yeah i think thats something to remember to keep in mind, usage of his bananas against him