Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[Admiral Pit]

That post above is another "Scurbbish" one. He really underestimates Pit's Ledgecamp game and probably never fought a good Pit. We need more Serious Dedede players (and more Pit players for that matter) to contribute to this matchup. This is similar to when the Marth boards became Biased when discussing Pit...
Is everyone else gonna diss Pit!?

Tell me Mikey7, do you have TRUE Pit experience!? Im not talkin about no Noobish Spammy Pit or a CPU Pit either! Im talking about smart, cunning, and strategic Pit players that use their arrows efficiently, pressure their opponents greatly, adapt to their surroundings (Stages) well, and more.
I would be part of this group, as well as FzeroX, Rogue Pit, Sagemoon, Eternal Phoenix Fire, and a few other Pits that I forgot.

Just because Pit gets gimped somewhat easily doesnt mean that he will ALWAYS have the disadvantage.
Take a look at Pit and Bowser, Pit has the advantage! Maybe against Wario... Pit also has the advantage! Against Ike? Pit Has the Advantage, though he is generally outranged by more than 3/4 of the cast and is gimped easily!
What I'm trying to get at is that whenever one of the boards discusses Pit from what I see, many Biased comments occur, like the one above. Maybe I should go off making a "Pit isn't being taken Seriously" Blog again...

I fought many Dededes before and have a general ideal on how to stop em. It wouldnt be completely easy, but I personally know how. From B-air spamming Dedede to Grab-happy Dedede to the more casual Dedede, I faced many different kinds.
Now for one, Dedede's Midair jumps arent gonna make Dedede gain much height, so airdodging might get you lower than you already started from. This can allow Pit to track the Dedede's Up-B easier and reach it quicker for the B-air sweetspot.

I should get veteran Pit players like Sagemoon in here...

 

[Mikey7]

Yep I have true OFFLINE Pit experience against an extremely creative Pit (counterpick wise).

I know the type you are talking about with the arrow spam...and lol at CPU's - I don't play by myself.

I only said Pit is gimpable because you went there first. Thats not even why Dedede wins.

Dedede wins because hes better than Pit in almost every way except at long range. Bair is better than ALL of Pit's aerials if used at range. Most ground moves are just destroyed by Dedede's ftilt and grab range, and if Pit fast falls almost anything...thanks for the easy chain grab. After all that, Pit is extremely light...BUT its hard to set up a kill move thats why its ONLY a 60 40 advantage.

Pit has advantages at long range with arrows. He has that CG which I guess helps out a little...and his autocancelled dair combined with multiple jumps is good vs Dedede and also retreating fair is hard to punish at times if its used intelligently.

I was vague before because I was pretty sure that it was common knowledge that bair is ridiculous but guess I was wrong, I hope this is enough or I'll probably go into more detail if I'm bored again.

 

[Kyuubi9t]

Pit CANNOT ledgecamp Dedede well at all...all you have to do is sit on the edge and if he jumps far out, grab the ledge and bair off it, or just grab him if hes too close...or just ff bair stage spike which would probably end up in a gimp.

Dedede's shield is huge, nair isn't going through it while its full lol.

You can chain as much fairs as you want, I'm not dying til 170% lol.

Pit's gimpability just adds more to Dedede's advantage.

60 40

man, pit's Nair will eat your shield for breakfast

 

[Coffee™]

I only said Pit is gimpable because you went there first. Thats not even why Dedede wins.

That's kind of bad logic but either way it's easier for Pit to gimp DDD than it is for DDD to gimp Pit.

Dedede wins because hes better than Pit in almost every way except at long range. Bair is better than ALL of Pit's aerials if used at range. Most ground moves are just destroyed by Dedede's ftilt and grab range, and if Pit fast falls almost anything...thanks for the easy chain grab. After all that,

Just for reference, Pit's Fair has just about the same range as DDD's Bair and overall I would say Pit's aerials are better than DDD's as far as this specific matchup is concerned.

DDD does outrange Pit by a fair amount on the ground with his Ftilt (as well as almost every character lol), but thats about it. DDD's Dtilt is pretty good too, but aside from these and DDD's Grab DDD has less options up close than Pit does in this matchup. Dash Attack OoS, Jab Combo or Jab to grab/Dtilt and Dtilt by itself are all pretty useful and their aim will be to put DDD into the air over Pit, where Pit will be at more of an advantage. You also have to take into consideration Pit's Utilt, which comes out in 2 frames which can easily put DDD in a bad situation if he attempts to grab a Pit that he thinks generally may not have any options after coming out of an aerial. You should especially look out for Nair and Dair which can be landed without any lag and can easily lead it into and Utilt.

As for fast falling. Pit has absolutely no reason to fast fall any of his aerials besides Fair and Bair and he will only be doing that if its a retreating aerial so thats not really that good of a point.

Pit is extremely light...BUT its hard to set up a kill move thats why its ONLY a 60 40 advantage.

Pit isn't extremely light. Obviously he isn't as weighty as Ganondorf or DDD but he is heavier than you give him credit for. Overall I agree with a 60:40 advantage but I think this is in Pit's favor.

 

[GodAtHand]

I'm just flying in from the Zelda boards because I like both of these characters a lot, and if there were no females in this game I would main one of these two! lol.

Just saying that the DDD boards should really step it up if they want to convince people the have the advantage here... that is all.

And for reference in the weight thread Pit has the same number characters above and below him. So he is middle weight. Lighter than Mario, but heavier than Ness and Marth...

 

[Mikey7]

Don't really need to convince, I'm just bored when I post : P I know every Dedede player on these boards know that they have the advantage.

 

[JST]

man, pit's Nair will eat your shield for breakfast

Tilt shield up.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Yep I have true OFFLINE Pit experience against an extremely creative Pit (counterpick wise).

I know the type you are talking about with the arrow spam...and lol at CPU's - I don't play by myself.

I only said Pit is gimpable because you went there first. Thats not even why Dedede wins.

Dedede wins because hes better than Pit in almost every way except at long range. Bair is better than ALL of Pit's aerials if used at range. Most ground moves are just destroyed by Dedede's ftilt and grab range, and if Pit fast falls almost anything...thanks for the easy chain grab. After all that, Pit is extremely light...BUT its hard to set up a kill move thats why its ONLY a 60 40 advantage.

Pit has advantages at long range with arrows. He has that CG which I guess helps out a little...and his autocancelled dair combined with multiple jumps is good vs Dedede and also retreating fair is hard to punish at times if its used intelligently.

I was vague before because I was pretty sure that it was common knowledge that bair is ridiculous but guess I was wrong, I hope this is enough or I'll probably go into more detail if I'm bored again.

It's more than just those boldened statements that make me hate so much, coming from a Falco player like you who probably trolls the place and dont know the matchup.
For the first Bold, this "Better than Pit" does NOT make any sense at all. It doesnt matter if Pit lacks range compared to Dedede, heck, Pit is outranged by most of the cast, but that doesnt mean that each and every one of them have the advantage over Pit, and for example, Bowser knows he outranged Pit yet Pit has the advantage.
For 2nd bold, whatever about that B-air. We all know that D3's B-air is one of the best, and one of the annoying, yet it isnt everything. Also, it's not like Pit is goin up against Marth F-airs where it has a WIDE reach. Comparing that to the penguin's B-air, I assume that Pit's best bet against B-air is just to shoot arrows away from the B-air hitbox, or Shieldgrab the B-air, depending on where the characters are. Maybe Pit could get directly under Dedede and bring in a U-air, actually Im not sure about that part... Not many Dedede have i face lately.
Pit fast falling ANYTHING for free chaingrab!? I already said that a Dedede can Shieldgrab a Pit SH N-air, it isnt Easy at all! Good Pits know how to give out pressure good enough so that it's nearly impossible to Shieldgrab. U-tilt comes out the fastest in Pit's Arsenal, in 2 frames. Add that after a skilled Pit using SH N-air and it will make things much more difficult.
That also reminds me, you thing every Pit is gonna go towards you when he might start spacing out his attacks? My mind is off on this one, so let's continue

Don't really need to convince, I'm just bored when I post : P I know every Dedede player on these boards know that they have the advantage.

What Advantage!? Aside from the Range, Chaingrabs, weight, and the "Gimping Pit from Up-B" thing that EVERYONE can do, I see nothing else!
Pit is already good with long projectile range, and can outcamp a Dedede if played correctly (SH arrows for one to go over Waddles)
As I recall you said that Pit CANT ledgecamp Dedede. This is completely wrong and probably havent faced a Pit that knows how to ledgecamp greatly. Pit is one of the best Ledgecampers in the game, but I think I already said that. Pit can do these while ledgecamping:
-U-air
-F-air
-Arrows (obviously)
-Mirror Shield
-B-air
-A Quick Airdodge
-Glide to other side of stage, if possible depending on the stage
-Up-B to quickly grab on to the stage, and to Wingpush nearby opponents

I believe there was more, but I'm forgetting with the frustration here that you're causing with the Biasedness.
It doesnt matter if Pit is outranged by the penguin. It doesnt matter if Dedede's B-air is beastly. It doesnt matter if D3 has that CG, it doesnt mean that Pit will have the disadvantage.
Pit can Pressure opponents greatly, especially larger chars which are bigger targets,
Though Pit has a small CG, he shouldnt even be using it against Dedede. They should just pressure them when at long range.
I'll get back to this later, and I'll continue, since school is a pain.
I still say this is 55-45 Pit's favor, and even good D3 players have Pit trouble, against good ones.

 

[Foursaken]

I play a pretty good Pit on an almost daily basis, lets see if I can spread some light on the subject of this match-up.

First and foremost, Pits arrows needs to be addressed. While most long range projectiles give D3 trouble, I find this one of the easiest to power shield. Maybe it's because I play him so much and no the timing for uncharged and charged, but if you can get past this, you take away one of his biggest assets in the match.

Nair does in fact **** shields in two instances. If it's not almost completely fresh, or you don't tilt it up. One thing my Pit player loves doing is FFNairing and landing behind me in an attempt to perform the CG if my shield isn't fresh, which is pretty smart. However, one most examine the risk - reward ratio here. Since Pit's Nair can be SG'd, and Pit only has a CG up into the 40s - 50s, it's generally not a good idea to approach since D3 can CG to the end of the stage. Pit for the most part will in fact be eating more damage, and since D3's weight doesn't allow him to die early, Pit loses in this aspect.

Does Pit want to space Fairs/Bairs to shield pressure? Jump back/forward with him and Fair/Bair yourself. Most of the time you'll win, if not trade damage. But even then, trading damage is ok, since you kill Pit way earlier then he kills you.

Is the Pit attempting to run up and grab you? Ftilt will stop him in his tracks, but most good Pit players mix up their grab game. Watch out for Jab, grab, jab, Dtilt to space. Most of the time you need to be just outside of his range to beat all these efforts with a proper SG. ( The tip of your boxing glove ).

Now what I've done here is effectively shut down Pit's long range game and approach game, meaning the one advantage he has left is edge camping. He has a lot of options here, but with a little knowledge, good D3's can shut down this part of his game plan as well. Firstly, always hit with the tip of your Dtilt in an attempt to pressure the Pit. You wont him to be clinging on the edge, jumping down, and reclinging. If he ever lets his invincibility frames wear off, start edgegaurding, because even with the Up + B, dair wing renewal, I think that's what it's called, gimping pit isn't very hard. Bairs simply **** this angel offstage. Smart ledgecampers attempt to Uair through the stage. When this happens, either realize he is going for it, float around, and bair for the stage spike, or dair. You win either way. The safer option is dair, as pit bairing you offstage hurts.

Random tidbits of info...

Dtilt beats angel ring.
Ftilt stops arrows rarely.

Seriously, this match is 55:45 DeDeDe, leaning 60:40.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I aint goin no higher than 50-50 even, which i think it should have been, though at times i thought about 55-45 Pit's favori, but im stayin at 50-50 and my mind has been made up... for now.

 

[Mikey7]

Lol I don't troll, I post when only when I know what I'm talking about. I play Dedede often in tournament, but yeah Falco is my main. I would always use Dedede vs Pit in tournament.

I just wanted to point out lol at arrows into bair and shield grabbing it...yeah because of those comments I'm done discussing this, really funny to read.

 

[Zephramrill]

WTF is this crap. Oh hey Mikey yeah uhh you suck LOLOL.

Scrubs, hes one of the top 10 players in Canada, and we have a couple of solid Pit players. Pit doesnt get *****, but saying he has any kind of advantage is absurd.

 

[Foursaken]

WTF is this crap. Oh hey Mikey yeah uhh you suck LOLOL.

Scrubs, hes one of the top 10 players in Canada, and we have a couple of solid Pit players. Pit doesnt get *****, but saying he has any kind of advantage is absurd.

So you are agreeing that it's either 55:45, 60:40 D3? Just trying to clarify.

 

[KY_Des]

I'd say 55:45 D3's favor. Possibly 60:40, but I wouldn't go quite that far. If the D3 sucks, Pit can escape the CG with Up-B. But if he does it right, you don't get the chance, so expect to be CG'ed. It's gonna happen.

I find Waddle Dees extremely easy to avoid. Don't glide into them and your fine *Looks at Foursaken* lol
Arrows are sooo good in this matchup. Just spam. It's a fat penguin you're fighting. Switch up your firing speeds, throw in a loop here or there, and keep spamming. Even if he shields half of them, you safely rack up damage with the other half. Little risk for decent reward. Why not do it?

Don't try to space bairs... D3 will grab you. Fairs can be spaced without that problem, but bairs can't. So don't try it. Nair is your friend. D3 CAN SG you, buuut it doesn't happen that often. And as long as you're not directly above D3, dair works pretty good too. Angel ring is a BIG risk in this matchup. You hit, you rack up about 15% damage. You miss, Pit's chewin on chain grabs across the stage. Don't use this move too often. And Mirror Shield is of no help in this matchup. You can reflect Gordos, but Gordos are random. You're prolly not gonna react that fast.

If you're Pit, you wanna ledge camp. SH arrows and nairs off the ledge, drop down then jump up and uair, stuff like that. Mix it up. If you get predictable, you're eatin bair stage spike from the penguin. But if D3 gets impatient and comes down after you, he's eatin the same thing. Just watch out for dtilt, it's a *****. When you're on stage, do NOT be in the middle of the stage. That's just more CGs for D3. The closer you are to the ledge, the less damage he can rack up with it. Plus Pit's KO power isn't so great. You're gonna want to be as close to the side of the stage as possible when you hit your kill move. And EDGEGUARD YOUR *** OFF!! Best case scenario, you gimp him. If you don't, hey, you got some free damage in. Lord knows we need it to kill the guy, he's huge. Use arrows to eat his jumps, then WoP him. Sweetspot a bair if you can.

If you're D3, what you wanna do is alot more simple. CG across the level, edge guard, repeat. It's the easiest way to deal with Pit. Wait for the Pit to mess up and snatch him up. Cg grab him to the ledge, Fthrow him off the stage, then edge guard him with whatever moves of yours work best. I'd guess dtilt, fair, bair, and some Waddle Dees?

The main reason this matchup is in D3's favor is because of the CG. Just the fact that he HAS it puts a huge restriction on Pit's options. You mess up once, it's a free CG. This in no way means a Pit can't win. It should actually be very close. But matchups are rated on the abilities of the characters, not the players. And in that sense, D3 definitely wins simply because he has more options.

Sorry guys, I love my character, but King Fatass has got this one.

 

[Fogo]

God i hate pit, his arrows are bull****, but if you use the shield chaingrab he's done lol

I say 50:50 or 55:54, D3.

 

[Gates]

Okay, I think we can stop the flame war discussion of the Pit matchup now.

This next matchup discussion is going to be 2 weeks long because:

a.) Zelda and Sheik are two distinct characters that a third playstyle that combines use of the two just happens to be viable for. Therefore, instead of discussing each one separately and then discussing the third playstyle seperately, I've decided to combine the two into one large discussion instead of 3 smaller ones.
b.) The week after next is finals week for me and I really can't afford to spend time here when I should be studying, so I'll be spending a lot less time on SWF (in theory).

ZELDA, SHEIK, AND ANY COMBINATION OF THE TWO DISCUSSION GO!
(How fitting...we start discussion of a ninja on Day of the Ninja 2k8...lol)

 

[Zankoku]

I personally like using Sheik but I'm told Zelda is a much better choice for this matchup.

Dedede is really funny when he gets caught in the chain.

 

[Mocha19]

I've played that match quite a lot, seeing as how I'm a Zelda main and one of my newest friends is a Dedede main.

The crazy thing about this match for him is that Dedede may not be able to CG Zelda, but he still has quite a bit of range on her already and more aerial options as well. Being in the air with Dedede is not a wise choice for the Zelda unless she can manage to get really close to him from the side with getting either a Bair/Fair or Nair. Uair sometimes if she can get it fast enough, but Dedede's dair outranges it. It's really hard for Zelda to approach him while spacing because of his shield grab range. His attacks are powerful too, so without proper DI, Zelda can and will die or be in a bad position very quickly if you act on them. Her recovery before she gets back to the stage is one of these positions.

In Zelda's defense though, Dedede is a really huge target, making it much easier for her powerful attacks to hit him. Namely her Fair/Bair, meaning Dedede, despite the fact that he's really heavy, will still die relatively quickly in comparison to most other characters trying to kill him, especially with bad DI. And since he is that heavy, it's much easier for Zelda to get strings of hits on him at lower percentages as well. Multiple Usmashes from as low as 0% to as high as maybe 10% and the whole string of whatever attacks she chooses could possibly go to 50% before it stops. Dsmash can send him pretty far at higher percentages, definitely enough to where his jumps wouldn't help him come all of the way back before he has to UpB, meaning it's an easy setup for Zelda to kill him with either Fair/Bair or a nicely timed Uair or can rack up more damage. It depends on how she plays when she's near the edge. Zelda is faster than Dedede, so she can also get some hits/dashgrabs in between his lag.

It's a matchup, in my opinion, between 2 of the best defensive characters in the game, so naturally it's all about whoever gets the other to approach and how the other player chooses to react on that approach. It's an extremely defensive fight.

I believe the Zelda boards have this rated 60:40 in Zelda's favor. I believe it to be correct, especially from the experience I've had with the fight. I'm not really sure about Sheik though.. Watch out for Ftilt locks I know..

 

[Blistering Speed]

I recently thought the Shiek matchup to be 50:50 because of Shiek's ability to combo DDD to hell and back, but since playing a competent DDD Im leaning more towards 55:45 DDD's favour. Ankoku made a very valid point in that Shiek's ability to combo is reduced by the fact that any combo starter is susceptible to Shield grabbing. Needle camping also becomes less viable because of both Waddle Dee's getting in the way and them interrupting your spam game. DDD has the tools to keep Shiek from getting inside, but when she does she's going to tear you a new one. Shiek's gimping game is also hindered badly by DDD's recovery which don't seem to work well together (for Shiek).

Also as a point of interest, on the Shiek boards we have been discussing for more then this past week (for Shiek/Zelda) and nearly all of it has been covered there. We were waiting for DDD players input before deciding upon matchup numbers, so this has worked out quite well .

 

[Brinzy]

The Zelda vs. DDD discussion started in our match-up thread on Post 307. This probably isn't going to link to the part where it started because my posts per page are not default.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698&page=21

 

[demodemo]

just to say what i have said before, sheik can rack up damage really easily on dedede, but can get shield grabbed at early percentages. however, around the middle percentages (like 30-80%) dedede is just really easy to juggle around, and while on the ground is basically forced to shield and grab. (if sheik is approaching aggressively)

however, at the high percentages, dedede becomes impossible to kill, impossible to land consecutive hits on, and just overall becomes really hard. transforming would then help a lot.

 

[Wildfire393]

Sheik Versus Dedede:

Sheik can be a troublesome opponent for Dedede when used correctly. Sheik is light enough that she is not susceptible to Dedede's chaingrab (though some Techchasing can still occur). Sheik's comboing can slap Dedede around at mid percentages, particularly the Tilt Combo, which takes advantage of Dedede's weight and fall speed. Sheik is also mobile enough to evade Waddle Dee spamming, and Needles can keep Dedede on his toes. Sheik is also fast enough to Spot-Dodge a Forward Tilt and get to Dedede fast enough to Punish it.
In terms of KO, though, it's a more rough situation. Sheik's primary option for KOing Dedede is to hit when he Up-B's onto the stage. Vanish or the Usmash Tipper (which are Sheik's best KO options) are both guaranteed if Dedede Up-B's to the stage, making this a dangerous option for the penguin. Additionally, if Dedede tries to Up-B to the ledge, Sheik can Tether-hog to prevent this. However, in order to get to this situation, Sheik needs to knock Dedede significantly off of the stage, which is difficult.
Additionally, Sheik's light weight makes her quite susceptible to fairly low percentage KOs from Bairs and Utilts.

Zelda Versus Dedede:

Zelda is also too light to be chain-grabbed properly. Additionally, Din's Fire passes through Waddle Dees, making Zelda one of the few characters who can outcamp Dedede. In terms of close combat options, however, Dedede can usually outlcass Zelda. Ftilt outranges anything Zelda can throw out, and due to Zelda's speed, is difficult for her to punish. Just don't get too close, as it is difficult for Dedede to avoid the multiple-hitting Usmash and Fsmash with his large bulk, and Dsmash/Neutral-B will outspeed even Dedede's Jab (I believe).
In terms of KO options, Zelda fares much better than Sheik. Lightning Kicks and the Dair Spike are easy to land because of Dedede's Bulk. Most of Zelda's KO options put the hurt on Dedede.
Again, Zelda is light enough that she can be KO'd fairly easily by Dedede's moves, so at least that is in his favor.

Zelda/Sheik could be a potentially devastating combination when used properly against Dedede. Having options against both of Dedede's primary damage builders is a good thing. Sheik's combos can brutalize Dedede's percentage, and Zelda's KO options can capitalize on that to commit regicide. Finding time to make the transformation can be difficult, due to Dedede's weight keeping him on the stage most of the time, but if the Sheik/Zelda player finds the time to make the transition, the Dedede player is in a world of hurt.

I'd say the matchups are probably something like this:
Sheik - Dedede: 45% in favor of Sheik
Zelda - Dedede: 35% in favor of Zelda
Sheik/Zelda - Dedede: 65% in favor of Sheik/Zelda

 

[Brinzy]

I don't understand your match-up numbers, sorry.

 

[Mikey7]

Lots of Sheiks and Sheik Zeldas in my area, only 2 Zeldas though.

Zelda has advantage 60:40 becuase of her ability to just **** shield and because she forces Dedede to approach, and its generally easier for her sweetspot attacks to hit. Why is it only 60:40 when she exploits all of Dedede's weaknesses? Full shield is still useful on many attacks, and because of Zelda's weight and recovery - take away recovery and this becomes 65:35.

Sheik on the other hand is at a large disadvantage...most moves are subject to shield grab, but Sheik has a high reward when an ftilt actually hits Dedede. Dedede wins in air and ground and sheik cant kill (I don't think I've died under 160% to a Shiek before). Um number value...I say 70:30 Dedede - unless someone lets me know about Sheik tricks that make this matchup better, but all 4 or 5 Sheiks I've played just get pummeled by Shield grab and bair.

Sheik Zelda - no point in using this against Dedede, just use Zelda. Dedede has advantage because of Sheik, but it takes away Sheik's struggle for a kill - so this matchup becomes 60:40

I'll elaborate if anyone asks.

 

[Zankoku]

Wait, all the Sheiks you play just get shieldgrabbed all the time? That sounds more like the fault of the player than the character. I mean, can't they just grab you when you're shielding or something?

 

[-Mars-]

Hopefully we can finally get an agreed upon matchup ratio for the Zelda/DDD matchup..........I honestly believe it's in Zeldas favor.

 

[PKNintendo]

I don't understand your match-up numbers, sorry.

By 45% I think he means 45-55 for Sheik
Zelda at 35% I think means 35-65 for Zelda
And Zelda/Sheik means 35-65 Zeik as well.

 

[Mikey7]

Wait, all the Sheiks you play just get shieldgrabbed all the time? That sounds more like the fault of the player than the character. I mean, can't they just grab you when you're shielding or something?

To me its pretty obvious when they will try to throw a spaced aerial or when they will try to dash in and grab, so if i see them dashing in I grab them before they grab me.

Um, can't really shield grab sheik's bair.

 

[g2g4l]

In my opinion its 55:45 zeldas favor. Due to how effective all her attacks are on characters of larger size. And sheik's is 40:60 in D3's favor. because she can rack dmg a lot but the lack of kill move and the fact that she is so light

 

[Palpi]

In my opinion its 55:45 zeldas favor. Due to how effective all her attacks are on characters of larger size. And sheik's is 40:60 in D3's favor. because she can rack dmg a lot but the lack of kill move and the fact that she is so light

You forget that simply getting d3 fairly away from you, with a lock or throw or w/e, you can turn into zelda to negate possible lack of killing moves, to further your advantage of damage racking and killing.

 

[Foursaken]

Shiek/Zelda, the ninja/magical princess of Brawl. This is an interesting match up for D3. Lets see, where to begin...

Firstly, realize that the king does not have a chain grab on neither Shiek or Zelda, and depending on which of the two your fighting/your opponents playstyle, you may be forced to approach. Approaching with our lovable penguin as many of you probably know is not D3's strongest suit, however it is possible. Full hop down airs, short hopped back airs, and forward tilts are probably your best options in this fight, especially if your being needle camped or set ablaze by din's fire.

In my opinion, DeDeDe has a slight edge, 55:45, when fighting against Shiek. Since Zelda's alter ego has no multiple hitting aerial attacks, any instance in which your opponent improperly spaces an aerial attack means a free grab, which you should then proceed to back throw. I'm not sure if down throw, forward tilt combo works or not since Shiek is pretty light, so just opt for a back throw unless it's severely decayed and doing 10% or less. Be cautious if the Shiek your fighting is more ground oriented and aggressive. Getting caught up in a foward tilt lock is free damage for Shiek if you don't SDI (smash DI) up and out of there quickly. Racking up damage on D3 as Shiek is fairly easy during the early percents, but I believe the main reason D3 has a small advantage over Shiek in this match is due to her lack of killing power. That boost smash hurts bad, but once you get around that, she should have some trouble killing you if she's decayed her Fair/Bair, but even then, that's not one of her best killing moves (vanish). You should only be getting hit by vanish through mind games or if the Shiek user forces you to Up B from off the stage. In most instances, this wont happen, but smart Shiek users can hit you from your jumps via needles sometimes causing you to use your super jump. This puts you in a bad position, so recover carefully. On the flip side, edge guarding Shiek is pretty easy. Back air her to oblivion, as her Up B doesn't cover very much horizontal or vertical distance to save this ninja if you hit her decently far away from the stage. I'm not saying go out of your way to gimp her, but a few well placed bairs is enough to do the trick. If all else fails, up tilt kills at around 100% (give or take).

Zelda on the other hand can be troublesome for such a big and heavy character such as D3. Most Zelda users will force you to approach them, throwing Din's fire out until you do so. If I'm not mistaken, a back aerial can cancel these flames out if you hit it right, so keep that in mind if your shields low. Once you get to close to Zelda however, her multi - hitting smash attacks simply eat D3 alive. Her up smash is beastly, again SDI out of there quickly or you'll be eating a good amount of damage. Normally this isn't a problem for DeDeDe due to his weight, but Zelda by no means lacks killing power. She has a spike, though hard and a bit risky to perform, an up air to kill you off the top, and a monstrous forward air that make users with bad DI, or just users who are unaware of her power, make them sorry for underestimating her. Honestly, I use waddle dees/doos/gordos alot in this match up, even if she can just reflect them back. Approaching her is hard, you have to constantly be mixing it up or prepare to be punished. Again, full hop down airs to shield poke, as well as back airs. Going in for the shield grab on the ground can be risky, as Zelda users down tilt trips, and trips, and trips some more. SDI away, less you eat a down smash. Like Shiek, you **** Zelda offstage, as her Up B covers a lot of distance, but is easily thwarted by smart use of invincibility frames. Back air her way off stage, wait for her to announce she's using her Up B, grab, then do a get up attack/roll if necessary to edge hog. Your main goal this fight is getting her off stage asap and making sure she doesn't come back. Zelda out camps you, plain and simple, and with the ability to shut down most of your approaches, this is going to be a long and tedious fight.

All in all, Ziek is a rough match up for King DeDeDe, especially if they just stay Zelda (which most will). Your going to have to play a tight spacing game, and generally just smart decision making if you hope to win this fight.

Tl;dr ->

55:45 Shiek
60:40 Zelda

Overall 55:45 either way.

 

[Ztarfish]

I might be the only one, but I believe that Sheik has the advantage over D3 because of her speed and ability to overwhelm D3's shield and quickly approach before D3 has time to respond. That in addition to the fact that few of D3's moves are as quick as Sheik's, and that the few that can keep up aren't very useful against her makes her a difficult foe.

Zelda on the other hand is slow, predictable, and much easier to handle. The only things Zelda definitely has going for her in this match is she's not CG'able, and D3 is a big target for her kicks. Unfortunately for her, kicks are easier to see coming than pretty much anything. If she stays grounded and pulls out Din's, just shield/spotdodge inbetween approaching her, while watching out for her fsmash when you get in too close (you can spotdodge it if you have good timing, otherwise just hold the shield if it's not too eaten up) 95% of Zeldas use this tactic, or they did when I still played with other people. I'm not too sure about anymore.

I'm not giving any specific reasons why I think the way I do, and that's cause I haven't played in like 2 months. I'm just talking from previous experience that Sheiks tend to be harder and Zeldas tend to be easier. It may be because I'm playing crappy Zeldas and good Sheiks, but I dunno. You can judge that for yourself.

 

[MorphedChaos]

There was a HUGE debate about this in the zelda forums, and it ended in 50:50 or 55:45 zelda's favor. Remember, SH Bair destroys zelda, and Utilt kills at 82%. Shiek is just cake due to poor recovery and lack of KO potential. And don't forget the tech chase to Dash or Fsmash, that can kill both at as low as 50%, (30% for Fsmash.)

CO18, can you remember?

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

There was a HUGE debate about this in the zelda forums, and it ended in 50:50 or 55:45 zelda's favor. Remember, SH Bair destroys zelda, and Utilt kills at 82%. Shiek is just cake due to poor recovery and lack of KO potential. And don't forget the tech chase to Dash or Fsmash, that can kill both at as low as 50%, (30% for Fsmash.)

CO18, can you remember?

First Page:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698

60:40 Zelda.

Debate Starts on Post 307 (halfway down the page):
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698&page=21

Eh, 60:40 seems right I suppose, I need to WoP more, but Zelda gets KO'ed so easily its not even funny, once your off the stage, your at D3's mercy, and since a Bair kills you at around 100% in the air... eh. Nwo to do the grab release Utilt combo, since I can get my grabs off well, and every grab I get is 20% damage.

DDD is hard countered by Zelda.


First order of business, who has to approach, it's DDD. DDD's minions do not affect din's fire and Zelda can punish DDD for pulling them out at most ranges. Sure, it's exchanging hits, but Zelda deals a lot more damage with Din. Din's fire has counters, but given advanced use, if just allowed to spam, Zelda will hit occasionally, creating a progressively worse situation for DDD, DDD must approach.

Now, what can DDD do to Zelda on approach... uh f-tilt, nothing else really. Bair is beaten by up-smash and up-tilt pretty handily, and also results in disadvantageous spacing. Everything else just isn't safe on block. Given that f-tilt isn't really safe on prediction (it's out too long) it just isn't enough. He's also forced to attack, because Zelda can ^B to reset the spacing very easily unless constantly pressured, allowing her to back to Din's fire.

Aerially, Zelda wins, DDD is an enormous target so you can reliably sweetspot against DDD. Heck, it's not too hard to sweetspot against DDD's bair (as in on the foot). They'll both be hurt by this, granted, but Zelda definitely has the advantage here.

Recovery, Zelda's recovery is relatively predictable, when recovering low, but nowhere near as predictable as DDD's. When recovering high on the other hand, she has plenty of options, whereas you can still predict exactly where DDD is gonna land based on his initial trajectory unless he cancels it, which makes him totally defenseless.

Chain grabbing would've probably saved DDD here... but he can't chaingrab Zelda.

70-30, Zelda.

My take is 60-40 Zelda. Everything that DDD bases his game on, Zelda has an answer for.....(etc)

How are you guys considering this 7:3 and I dont even think Zelda has the adv in this matchup and its neutral at best for her or Dedede having the advantage.

Dedede outranges Zelda on the ground, completely destroys her in the air, Not that difficult to rack up damage on her and Dedede can kill her very easily as compared to her up air being almost useless Versus Dedede one of her main kill moves because dair completely outranges it and extends to the ground. Not to mention her other kill moves can be DIed out of and they still wouldn't kill Dedede for very long.
And dededes bair destroys her fair and bair which are potential killing moves.

Imo Dedede has adv 6:4 or 55:45.

You've gotta be on crack if you think DDD destroys Zelda in the air, she wins handily in every aerial position with the lone exception of DDD being below her. As was stated before, Zelda can sweetspot on DDD's foot for bair (with either fair or bair), tell me, who wins that exchange? Dair is killed by uair. Fair puts up no defense against bair and fair.

As for kill moves, DDD MIGHT be able to DI out of fsmash (I've never seen it happen, but I guess it's possible), but upsmash, no way, only tiny/light characters can reliably DI out. Utilt isn't multi-hit, fair and bair aren't multi-hit, uair isn't multi-hit, ftilt isn't multi-hit, and downsmash isn't multi-hit. ONE move DDD MIGHT be able to DI out of, which is highly doubtful.

anyways, the thread went on for a few more pages, the Zelda board members left it ??:?? for a while, but decided that most of the prejudice was because Zelda is mid-tier.


Random Edit(sorryz): Can you really tech chase to forward smash? To me, it seems that given the start-up lag you can Guess-Tech to Forward smash if they can't react fast enough. : / just my oppinion though, I haven't ever seen it in a match.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Its usually Tech chase to Dash, but if you roll towards D3 after the Dthrow, they can hit you with the Fsmash, if you don't move at all, you'll still be hit by it, but not as badly. Now if D3 could Boost smash his Fsmash, then the only option would be to roll away if D3 decides to do a Fsmash.

 

[Mikey7]

OK, disregard my post about Sheik from before, its only 60:40 in Dedede's advantage. I wasn't really thinking straight when I posted it. I was biased towards Dedede's strengths and too negative on Sheik's weaknesses. Sorry.

 

[Yuna]

Zelda has a nifty 0-80% D-tilt to any Smash/Tilt combo on D3 without a wall. He cannot roll or DI out of it unless Zelda starts it with the very tip of her foot or something. At higher %s, her D-tilt will trip. However, you cannot react to it fast enough to get out of yet another D-tilt (unless you guys know something I don't... can that frame-precise roll out of trips on reaction get him out of it?).

He can shield it, though. It works in-between hits, but only at, like, 8-12%. After that, it's a guaranteed combo. Sometimes, the shield doesn't work, so it might just be me mistiming it occasionally.

Bottom line is, Zelda has a guaranteed 12 (or something) to 80% combo to tilt or smash of her choice. D3 being so large makes it much easier to sweetspot him as well and it's also much harder for him to DI out of her smashes. That's more than half his stock gone already.

I assume you all already knew about this. If you didn't, I suggest you factor it into your assessment of the match-up.

 

[Gates]

Zelda has a nifty 0-80% D-tilt to any Smash/Tilt combo on D3 without a wall. He cannot roll or DI out of it unless Zelda starts it with the very tip of her foot or something. At higher %s, her D-tilt will trip. However, you cannot react to it fast enough to get out of yet another D-tilt (unless you guys know something I don't... can that frame-precise roll out of trips on reaction get him out of it?).

He can shield it, though. It works in-between hits, but only at, like, 8-12%. After that, it's a guaranteed combo. Sometimes, the shield doesn't work, so it might just be me mistiming it occasionally.

Bottom line is, Zelda has a guaranteed 12 (or something) to 80% combo to tilt or smash of her choice. D3 being so large makes it much easier to sweetspot him as well and it's also much harder for him to DI out of her smashes. That's more than half his stock gone already.

I assume you all already knew about this. If you didn't, I suggest you factor it into your assessment of the match-up.

This is definitely something to watch out for but none of Zelda's smashes can kill Dedede at 80%. If she did something like Dthrow -> Hyphen Smash -> Uair after the tilt lock it might kill if the Dedede player DIs incorrectly.

Ultimately though, this isn't that much more threatening than Shiek's Ftilt lock. It's definitely something to consider but it takes more than just this for Zelda to succeed in the matchup.

 

[Yuna]

This is definitely something to watch out for but none of Zelda's smashes can kill Dedede at 80%. If she did something like Dthrow -> Hyphen Smash -> Uair after the tilt lock it might kill if the Dedede player DIs incorrectly.

I never said she can combo into a KO-move. It's still a devastating combo. Zelda can KO D3 before he hits 150%. With 80+% gone, that's more than half of his projected lifespan for that stock. From one single combo.

Ultimately though, this isn't that much more threatening than Shiek's Ftilt lock. It's definitely something to consider but it takes more than just this for Zelda to succeed in the matchup.

Sheik cannot F-tilt lock D3. She can F-tilt D3 a few times, but SDI and airdodging/aerialing will take care of that.

This is a guaranteed (from what I can tell) combo for tons of damage.

My point is that I haven't seen it mentioned yet (I've skimmed). So maybe people don't know about it or haven't taken it into consideration. Zelda already wins even without it. Now what happens if you factor it in?

 

[MorphedChaos]

I never said she can combo into a KO-move. It's still a devastating combo. Zelda can KO D3 before he hits 150%. With 80+% gone, that's more than half of his projected lifespan for that stock. From one single combo.

This is a guaranteed (from what I can tell) combo for tons of damage.

My point is that I haven't seen it mentioned yet (I've skimmed). So maybe people don't know about it or haven't taken it into consideration. Zelda already wins even without it. Now what happens if you factor it in?

Do you have any Frame data for that Yuna? I'm pretty sure a roll from trip would get D3 out of it. And 80% isn't really that much for D3, since you really can't KO him until, like you say, 150%, yet he can KO you at around 82% with his Utilt.

Can you Dtilt to Utilt with this combo? Zelda's Utilt fresh is more powerful then her Fsmash or Usmash from what I can tell. (Kinda like D3.)