Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[Commander_Beef]

CG > fsmash is a mindgame therefore an invalid statement. Ike can easily use counter then DDD is boned. Plus Ike has faster smashes. Also Ike doesn't rely only his slow attacks, he also has a 3 frame jab that combos into itself.

Have you even played a good ike on a stage against DDD's favor?

Yes lol. Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is an example if you face a campy Ike.

 

[Ussi]

YI's is still possible to CG. I meant a stage where CG is not a viabe option, such as Norfair. And if has anyone ever dared to fight Ike on Pirate Ship?

 

[T3h Albino]

no kuz an ike has never cp'd me to pirate ship kuz they usually switch characters after i 3stock them first game <_<
Gates can we do some discussions on characters that are **** without the infintie
I.E-The Mario Bros
and i also think we should go over ZSS

 

[Gates]

Gates can we do some discussions on characters that are **** without the infintie
I.E-The Mario Bros
and i also think we should go over ZSS

They don't **** without the infinite, it's even at worst.

And we already discussed ZSS but I'll put her on the list for rediscussion.

 

[T3h Albino]

They don't **** without the infinite, it's even at worst.

And we already discussed ZSS but I'll put her on the list for rediscussion.

well not **** *sorry wrong word* but they do better than ness and ike <_<

 

[Ussi]

no kuz an ike has never cp'd me to pirate ship kuz they usually switch characters after i 3stock them first game <_<
Gates can we do some discussions on characters that are **** without the infintie

I don't think there are any good Ike players in the Atlantic south region. At least I've never heard/seen videos of any Ike there.

A good Ike player is uncommon.

 

[Ussi]

Gates, I don't think anyone cares enough to discuss Ike on a counter pick >_> You might as well move on and put 65-35 (on average) or "lulgimpz"

 

[Gates]

Meh. I'll just let this thread go quiet until the friday update. I like to keep a consistent update schedule.

 

[Tero.]

CG > fsmash is a mindgame impossible therefore an invalid statement.

Fix'd that for you.

 

[BlackKnight23]

CG > fsmash is a mindgame therefore an invalid statement. Ike can easily use counter then DDD is boned. Plus Ike has faster smashes. Also Ike doesn't rely only his slow attacks, he also has a 3 frame jab that combos into itself.

Have you even played a good ike on a stage against DDD's favor?

Thing is your right most of ikes i played were garbo and i just chucked waddle dees all day at them and go in for the kill.

but i don ***** the smashes i use them to scare people, the tilts mess ike up pretty bad. People tried to countered but then (gawd im lucky) catch a gordo to the face.

 

[Ussi]

Tilts do mess with Ike. Its nothing he can't handle though. Without the CG i'd say its fairly even since DDD has no set method of getting Ike offstage. Hence why I asked for stages DDD can't CG on

So yea, stages that will get in the way: Brinstar has lava, and Norfair has platform camping and lava, and Pirate Ship prevents gimps but not spikes. Basically stages that will stop gimp/CG attempts. Pirate Ship is in Ike's favor.

Good stages against Ike: Delfino has lots of walk offs, Castle Seize won't ever bother DDD besides the 1st transformation, FD is ******** and the perfect stage for CGs.

Wild cards: RC, Ike can handle this stage fairly well. I put this on wild card since DDD has slow aerial movement so in a sense, Ike can maneuver around him and since Ike has a better horizontal aerial range, air camp him. DDD can get spiked too if he's not careful and Ike can get knocked away to the wrong place. On the boat, Ike can do a jab lock on the wall as well as a wall lock. Hence why I throw this under wild card.

Neutrals: Ike will strike FD and SV. So you have a choice between YI, Lylay, and BF. Those three stages have platforms that are helpful to Ike's game. So Ike can put up a fight, (a long uphill fight) on those stages, but DDD still has a solid lolgimps advantage.

 

[Gates]

Without the CG i'd say its fairly even since DDD has no set method of getting Ike offstage.

Bthrow -> multiple bairs.
It works.

 

[Ussi]

screw it, DDD's grab range ***** Ike even without the CG.

 

[Commander_Beef]

I would conclude that the match is 60:40 DDD and not 65:35, when you play a real Ike.

 

[WingedKnight]

Knowing what a masterful Ike can do, I'd say 60:40 our favor. Certainly not 65:35. It's clear we have the advantage in grab range, air game, and overall range (Waddles ^_^). We got some quicker moves, some stronger moves, and some high-priority stuff (Bair is your friend!). Plus, when we get him off the stage he has issues. But do NOT underestimate him! He can punish, HARD! His strength is about equal to Dedede's, he has a few dangerous moves in his arsenal, and his counter can mess you up if you're not grabbing. Be aware of this, I've made the mistake of poking him with a Ftilt from a distance, forgetting counter would still get me. XD All in all, The King definitely has the one-up on Ike, but it isn't a comfortable enough margin that you should be too cocky!

 

[Deleted member]

He can punish, HARD!

uhh, hold L/R when he does stuff?

at LEAST 80/20.

 

[Jupz]

uhh, hold L/R when he does stuff?

at LEAST 80/20.

qft. lolike

 

[Gates]

Oh ****, I forgot to update.

Ike discussion is done.
You guys can talk about Metaknight now but I'm not going to pretend to be excited about it.

 

[_clinton]

MK is nothing more than a low pawn to the great D3 in his court...

 

[Commander_Beef]

I believe this matchup would be better for King Dedede if he did more camping and more reading or predicting of what Meta Knight will do in his approach. Never use any smash attack because of his lag in each one except a timed forward smash. There's not much else you can do to his tornado except to shield it. Forward and down smashes will pierce it, but not worth trying more than twice if you failed both times. But other than that, just like they all say. . .play smart here =).

 

[Gates]

MK is nothing more than a low pawn to the great D3 in his court...

You, sir, win the internets.

 

[_clinton]

You, sir, win the internets.

Why am I always doing that?

 

[WingedKnight]

FTilt his Nado from afar. The thing is many MKs will come in at a tricky angle to try and prevent this. Just no that, as your best poke attack, its the best for trying to stop Nado Spam. Too bad Waddles don't help much.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

MK can grab us near the ledge and pummel us then when DeDeDe gets released they have a sure Nair o-o

Tornado is gay... yeah... try shielding it then punishing with a shieldgrab or Utilt.

Inhale ***** any aggressive approach badly.

MK dies at 100% from a fresh Utilt.

If the MK spams Dsmash shieldgrab.

Watch out for MK's amazing combo, Shuddle Loop into Glide.

Ftilt & Dsmash beat Tornado Spam.

Thats all my knowledge kthxbai.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Even though both of you said that ftilt can pierce the tornado, I may be outnumbered, but I know for sure that it doesn't and it'll get negated.

 

[CO18]

lol dont use ftilt vs nado. It only negates it like a small percent of the time and other times just gets *****.

Down tilt/dsmash/up tilt all beat nado cleanly. Dtilt is really your best move to use if theyre at low percents and if its grounded then of course use up tilt if theyre at a high percent to kill them.

Basically use those along with falling bairs on top of nado and shielding and punishing. Nadoes not that bad at all once you get some practice vs it.

Overall though the matchup is 6:4 mk

 

[sMexy-Blu]

OFF TOPIC: This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeCmE1U59gk&feature=related

I hate Zelda.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Yeah I hate her too now. we have to watch out for that when we are playing against Zelda =(.

 

[Gates]

Usually I'd be pissed at off-topic discussion like this.

But we're discussing Metaknight this week so I'll allow it.

 

[CRASHiC]

If you want to beat a metaknight.
Obtain this album


I've included a link for your listening pleasure, I just wish the piece wasn't shortened from the original 20 minutes.

Play it during the match.
One of two things will happen.
Either the person (like myself) will become immobilized from the minimalistic genius.
Or will throw their arms up, screaming WHAT IS THIS ****! and walk away.
Then punish.


But seriously, nothing much will change in this matchup.
We do have the pivot grab option on Nado now.
Play campy and never pursue unless you know you won't get punished.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Pretty impressive I must say crashic haha, nice. And yes, pivot grabbing the tornado is a great idea!

 

[Zip.]

OFF TOPIC: This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeCmE1U59gk&feature=related

I hate Zelda.

ugh...first the pikachu cg, now this... >___________<

 

[T3h Albino]

this matchup gets less difficult as you play it and learn these crucial things.
-Always dtilt grounded nado's ALWAYS
-Utilt Aerial Nado's it usually breaks idk how often but it doesn't fail me if i time it right
-DO NOT USE FTILT *it is easily powershielded and then you're fawked*
-if you do not powershield a dsmash don't go for the grab *they will dsmash again and you'll be too far away to grab + you'll die at high percentages*
-dont ever ever ever try to up b on to the stage against mk *pretty obvious but people still do it :O*
-Use the buuman trap ***** works*

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

OFF TOPIC: This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeCmE1U59gk&feature=related

I hate Zelda.

Awesome, haha. Good thing I am a Sheik/Zelda player as well as a DDD player, or else I wouldn't be able to appreciate this xD

 

[NinjaFoxX]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227220

yoshi says hi!

 

[Buuman]

Zelda is easy. Just remember her up smash is broken...stay away from that move...beware of her down tilt and down smash.

Meta Knight vs. D3 has to be one of the most awkward matches for D3...because you HAVE TO PLAY DIFFERENT against GOOD MKs....I don't care who you are. DO NOT APPROACH EVER. I'm working on this matchup, and anti MK strategies. Refer to my thread tonight, I am probably going to add some.

But one effectice strategy I've noticed to work wonders, is retreating pivot grabs, retreating side Bs, and spacing that F tilt flawlessly.

Think of it this way...Most Metaknight don't want to dair D3 when he's on the ground too often, because of his up tilt, so expect this situation:

Metaknight is on the ground about 10 ft away from dedede, who is also on the ground...out of f tilt range. In this case..Most D3s would expect MK to approach if nothing is happening. THINK ABOUT HIS OPTIONS...

IF HE TORNADOES FROM THIS DISTANCE...YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO SPACE/TIME D3S UP TILT

Some Mks...from my experience will do a dash grab...

and more uniquely some MKs will run into a shield/spotdodge

Now what I've been doing lately seems to work...if you run away..and can anticipate when MK begins his dash to you...RUN AND PIVOT GRAB!!!

THINK ABOUT IT - D3s pivot grab is insanely fast, longer then his other grabs, and lets him retreat AND turn around

Lately most of my opponents run right into my hands ---> and I get the Back throw off




More on this later

 

[WingedKnight]

Huh, I thought for sure FTilt broke the Nado reliably....Oh well. I'm no longer ignorant on the point.
Doesn't matter too much, he's got enough other options against the MT, I just won't be trying the FTilt anymore.

 

[hdrevolution123]

Olimar Matchup

Is there a matchup discussion somewhere? Cos I wrote something about the Olimar matchup as a response to a question some guy asked in the Q&A. Here it is:

With Olimar you already know that his grab game is RIDICULOUS. It outranges on the ground except for your ftilt. Use that a lot. It's no kill move so making it stale wouldn't matter. Try poking him with ftilt to get him off the stage and gimp him. If he's in the air then your bair outranges or outprioritizes his small pikmin fair and bair.Sometimes you could try SH dair to rack up some damage but that's risky cos then he can grab you due to the end lag of it. Throw Waddles Doos and Dees whenever possible. When you're far away from him just Waddle Dee toss and it will rack up some free damage if not shielded or expected. In fact try ftilt poking him first then when he hasn't been expecting waddle dees, throw some at him and he might not shield them. Gimping him is easy, use bairs, use fairs, hell use inhale and shoot him further away or just grab the ledge and edgehog until his crap recovery gets the better of him. Good Oli players would try to use purple pikmin to get you off the ledge but this can only occur once with good timing at the edge so either way he's screwed.

Just be cautious for Oli's grabs, Pikmin throwing spam and jab! Oli's grab has tremendous range (certainly his pivot grab for mention) and he can throw Pikmin to rack up a lot of damage. If you start shielding it then he can grab u can combo you. In fact your best option is to also throw waddle dees and if a pikmin gets you then use jab to get them off. Do not let Oli catch you off guard. Olimar's jab give a fricking 15%! That's how broken he is! Short little man giving 15% in a single jab combo! For spacing (when you're at his face) he would normally use a pikmin smash attack- which is really fast- jab (giving 15%) or dtilt (which comes out on frame 6. Either way Oli has some good spacing options. WHen he's at your face the best option is perhaps to jab or dtilt or shield grab but I can only tell u throw experience that him being in your face is not the situation you wanna be in cos he outprioritizes u there. Keep spacing my friend. FTILT is your friend. Waddle Dees are your friend. If he doesn't grab you then INhale is also your friend. GIMPING is your philosophy in this matchup. Be conscientious what what that guy will do but always be concentrating on stage control and getting him off the stage first. D3's wall of pain is beautiful, utilize that and know it WILL get a whole stock off an Oli user.

Also as you may know Oli can combo very easily and effectively after various throws. From dthrow he'd definitely want to fair you or grab you again (if at a low percentage). Try fooling him so you don't fall into his combo. Try DIing away from Oli or behind him after the dthrow. Mix it up. NEVER spotdodge immediately cos then he'll know exactly when to attack you. If you do DI behind him after dthrow then you can easily bair him (a safe move to use in the air). Watch out for his hyphen smash- it's very fast and very powerful for KOing. After various throws Oli is able to hyphen smash a fast fall instead or getting you in the air. It's danagerous and since you'll then he above him, he can either up-B you (which has a lot of range) or rack damage with the uair. My tips therefore is to always be as unpredictable as Oli is after throwing. He is most likely to use dthrow and uthrow at low percents. You now know that. Therefore DI behind him and bair to ftilt on ground. If you do happen to get above him in the air then don't panic to much. Just try to keep away from him. I hate juggling but opponents will do it. Fall away from him where you can perhaps knock in a bair where you think you can't be shield grabbed. Try a Waddle toss instead cos it has more reach and can save you from an Oli grab.

Don't fall for his grabs, stay out of range and ftilt or spotdodge and punish.

Hope I helped!

HD

EDIT: I'm now a Smash Apprentice, yay!

Note that this is a quote of something that I wrote lol

 

[hizzlum]

Regarding MK, IMO you can make this match-up really easy for DDD to succeed if you just focus on an extremly defensive approach.
DDD in general has a bad approach, so you might as well not approach in the match-up and rather punish every aerial MK pulls out, which simply just requires you to know the general ideas of MK's aerial game and think what he would do in a situation, so basically the shield to shield grab will wreck him.

Once you have the grab you have two options, the tech-chase(do it if you ur confident u can get a positive result out of it, or you want to get in ur opponent's head with good reads) or playing it conservative, which is what I do and am known for doing in norcal(simply pummel to bthrow every non-CG able character when they are over 35%, its generally racks up around 17% if stale)

IMO when the tornado comes out, as micheal hey has told me (Best IC player in WC, and most knowledgebale player in norcal and argueably WC) DDD realistically has no great anwser to it. Dtilt has range, but MK can hover over it to catch DDD's upper body, but a utilt spaced will get in, but IMO dont use it under KO% so it wont get stale. I just shield and move my shield with the tornado, which is effective with DDD's large sheild, but good MK's retreat when they see the nado isnt landing, so its difficult at times to punish it, unless they land right next to you on either side, cuz that a free tech chase or in my playstyle's case pummel to bthrow.

a utilt at 110-to high 90's% unstale is a guaranteed kill on neautrals, good fact to know since DDD lives to more than 140%(thats low, generally you should be living till 160%) every single stock in this match-up if you have good DI, remeber dsmash at 120% will put out a kill if unstale(good follow-up to a tech chase at high % is dthrow to dsmash out of shield, takes out their tech/backward roll and get-up options, unless they want to lose their stock)

I have beat ranked players in my reigion(norcal, son) who used MK on me, and the knowledge i have obtained from micheal hey and norcals finest really proves that its actually a winnable match for DDD,

always be a 60-40 MK IMO, noob DDD's will get wrecked, if you just punish in ths match up its a incredibly entertaining and IMO the weight difference will display itself as an incredible benefit for DDD, thats how i win my matches, haha

 

[Gates]

OK, I'm sick of talking about MK now. Like, physically sick. I'm gonna go throw up once I finish updating the OP.

KIRBY DISCUSSION GO!

I'll start off with this:
I have found that, even though Kirby has the advantage overall, Dedede beats Kirby fairly consistently on Rainbow Cruise. Discuss.