EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[DarrellD]

Roll the stick ehh??????? I want to work on this one day soon. Sounds so ****ing broken too.

So I had this question in the back of my head for a few days now. Whats the best way to beat Falcon's nair when its being spaced directly infront of you or retreating. I dont mean to CC downsmash it because if its being spaced, it doesnt work and you just miss a smash. I think the second hit of falcon's nair beats nair or maybe I just suck at interrupting that move. Im looking for a clean way to deal with it while taking the smallest risk possible or just plain out beating it instead. Any thoughts?

 

[Geist]

I got decent at SHFFMC once I realized I didn't have to press down all the way to fast fall.
Then I realized the amount of effort it took to implement it versus the amount of times it's useful wasn't worth it.

Falcon's nair is stupid and I feel like there isn't a sure-fire way to straight up counter a defensive falcon.
Maybe the answer will be something stupid like extenduuurrr or bomb Oos or spacing sh double bair.
Probably not.

 

[bubbaking]

I believe Falcon's nair does beat our nair. It's really hard to challenge Falcon air-to-air. Uhhh, I got nothing. Falcon's nair is one of the things I hate most about that char. Maybe go with the regular and space a ftilt?

 

[iRobinhoood]

I use all of my buttons to play Melee. I shield with L/waveland/L cancel. An with R i wavedash only. I jump with Y and wavedash with X. I think it's because i started off with Fox/Marth then i picked up Samus couple of years later.

This is, well, different.

I'm getting better at my SHMCs on PS. They worked well tonight somewhat.

 

[Violence]

Duck showed me(through his vids). You just outspace with utilt. It looks so dumb when you do it, but it's pretty damn effective if you keep your space.

Er, lemme elaborate.

When Duck fought Johnny, he started CC dsmashing the nair, which didn't work, and he also tried beating it with ftilt, which worked sparingly, but mostly forced a trade, sometimes got beaten, and sometimes just traded.

At that same spacing, if you use utilt instead, sometimes you get beaten, so you can easily buffer cc dtilt, as you already know, and if you trade, your utilt hit is a much better trade off, as it usually forces Falcon into knockdown or gets him off stage. You also have much better upward angle coverage and often times it just beats Falcon's nair entirely.

Seriously, just try to space utilt against a nairing Falcon, and enjoy your free edgeguards opportunities.

 

[abcool]

This is, well, different.

I'm getting better at my SHMCs on PS. They worked well tonight somewhat.

You know for the longest time i thought my style was the default style lol. I am a very coordinated person. I separate my buttons like that because it's easier for me to memorize button inputs.

Does anyone know an easy way to pivot tilts like HugS? I mean he does it almost perfectly and when i try i pivot Fsmash. :\

 

[iRobinhoood]

I think pivot tilts are different than pivot smashes. They require a gentle touch and precision.

 

[Violence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B18EuHxBn1w#t=23m10s

Hugo's warmup. All those pivot fsmashes...

 

[iRobinhoood]

Error loading link. Could be because in on my iPod though.

 

[Knut]

you can really feel a difference between pivot ftilt and pivot fsmash. for the fsmash its like you're pressing forward and A at exactly the same time.

when i'm DD'ing, lets say i just turned to the left, and wanna pivot ftilt toward the right..i start lightly pressing the control stick back toward the right, immediately after i flick it to the left. iknow that makes it sound so much easier than it actually is...
this is another one of those things your controller needs to be broken in for..keep practicing pivot fsmash and eventually you'll start pivot ftilting here and there..or at least thats how it happened for me...now i can do them on command, on good days.

for the utilt thing..i think its a bad idea to be sitting falcons running nair distance away and throwing out random utilts hoping he'll jump into them. hax just started triangle jumping and WL'ing back to bait them out and then punish when i used it to frequently..
Dash attack and Uangled/regualr Ftilt all beat nair though, they just have to be spaced and timed properly(usually after the first hit of nair). and you can CC buffer through all these moves just as easily as with Utilt.. and you actually get to be closer to falcon in this case.
i personally prefer to be up in falcons grill, poking him out until i get him cornered. i feel like hes too dangerous when you give him space, and thats what you're doing when you space him out with Utilt. although this isn't such a bad strategy on yoshi's IMO. i guess everyone has their preferences though.

and how the hell are SHFFMC' not useful?!

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, I'd rather be up in Falcon's face too, pushing him around. Once he gets room to run around, things get dangerous.

 

[abcool]

Thanks, man. I was practicing it before and got out the tilt sometimes, but i thought there might be some trick to doing it perfectly like the Jab cancel trick. Looks like i will have to do it the hard way. :\

 

[Violence]

I've started to find that lately, I've been preferring letting the Falcons run around.

If they leave you alone, you get to fire off missiles and gain the upper hand in spacing.

Obviously I don't think that you just throw out utilt and pray.

Once they start playing around your utilt, you've really accomplished what you want. They can't just throw it out because you can just wd utilt, so now you can switch to infighting, ftilt poking, or grabs.

I just like keeping them honest with some utilts in the mid game once you figure out their approach patterns.

 

[Knut]

honestly, what i do is slide my finger over to the side of the control stick i wanna do the tilt in mid dash dance, and toward top, middle, or bottom, depending on the angle of tilt i want. then as i dash in the opposite direction, i lightly push it so the stick just barely moves from neutral(and i don't move my finger from the spot i put it on the stick prior to this). and as the animation for the DD is happening, i gently ease the stick toward the direction i want the tilt to come out in.

i don't know if that makes all that much sense. its pretty tough to explain in words.

samus is really hard to do pivot tilt with because her DD is so short. so the stick has to be in tilt position in such a short frame of time. practice it with marth because you have a lot more leeway for pivots with him. this will give you better feel for how to ease the stick into tilt position for the pivot. same thing with fox, and you can practice angled tilts with him as well.

 

[Knut]

I've started to find that lately, I've been preferring letting the Falcons run around.

If they leave you alone, you get to fire off missiles and gain the upper hand in spacing.

Obviously I don't think that you just throw out utilt and pray.

Once they start playing around your utilt, you've really accomplished what you want. They can't just throw it out because you can just wd utilt, so now you can switch to infighting, ftilt poking, or grabs.

I just like keeping them honest with some utilts in the mid game once you figure out their approach patterns.

yea of course..i wasn't saying not to use the move. and yea, its great for spacing out early on or if you just happen to have the room to use it. i think darrell was talking about the 'infighting' since he said retreating nair or spaced directly in front of you. and utilt doesn't really work in those situations. well, i guess it could...but its more of a read if anything.
if falcon is right outside of ftilt range and doing either of these...dash attack stuffs both. and walk forward/WD forward ftilt works as well with out the crazy start up lag of utilt.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Dear Samus boards, you guys are pretty good at explaining things. I want to further my knowledge of this game.

What does this stuff mean? (It's Samus' jab data)

Total: 17 (I'm guessing total frames from start to finish, easy one)
Hit: 3-4 (This attack hits for two frames, on frame 3 and frame 4 correct?)

Hit lag: 3 (Don't know what this means)
Shield stun: 6 (Opponent is unable to do anything while in shield for this many frames)
Advantage: -11 (Sounds important, don't know what it means though.)
Swing advantage: -6 (Not a clue)

 

[bubbaking]

iRobinhood, I can't explain everything, but I can tell you that the "advantage" is how many frames you can move freely before your opponent can also act if you hit his shield. For instance, that "-11" on jab means that the opponent can move 11 frames before Samus can if she hits his shield with it. However, this kinda sounds off (I thought Samus' jab was good), so I'm gonna guess that the "swing advantage" is how much advantage Samus gets if she crouch cancels the move.

I've started to find that lately, I've been preferring letting the Falcons run around.

If they leave you alone, you get to fire off missiles and gain the upper hand in spacing.

Obviously I don't think that you just throw out utilt and pray.

Once they start playing around your utilt, you've really accomplished what you want. They can't just throw it out because you can just wd utilt, so now you can switch to infighting, ftilt poking, or grabs.

I just like keeping them honest with some utilts in the mid game once you figure out their approach patterns.

Not against this, but I really hate it when Falcon gets to run around because things get messy quickly. For one, Falcon can nair (or use any aerial) through the missiles, so while missile play is good, it can still be stuffed.

 

[iRobinhoood]

How would cc give her a better advantage? I think the swing advantage has to do with the second part of her jab.

Updated ye-old profile pic.

 

[ycz12]

No, the advantage is correct. I believe it'd be -(first hit frame) + (hitlag) + (shield stun) - (total frames), -3 + 3 + 6 - 17 = -11. This doesn't account for IASA frames, though, which is why Samus' Jab is actually better than -11.

Swing advantage should just be frame advantage for the second part of her jab.

 

[iRobinhoood]

What are the IASA on Samus' jab?

 

[Knut]

^i really wanna know this too!

 

[Ripple]

samus's jab 1 IASA is frame 18.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Wouldn't that mean the jab can't be interrupted?

 

[Ripple]

ummmm....no

where would you get that?

 

[iRobinhoood]

The jab is 17 frames total. So wouldn't IASA mean the jab can be interrupted somewhere between that number of frames(1- 17)?

Sorry kinda new to this advanced stuff.

 

[ycz12]

Disclaimer: I don't really know anything

 

[Gea]

IASA means literally interruptible as soon as. So as soon as frame ____ and after. So I think there's some miscommunication going on. Ripple, if the frame data is correct and what you said is correct, then the move cannot be interrupted with Samus doing another move via IASA frames, which is what you were implying anyways by saying frame 18. As no IASA frames are listed in the hitbox/framedata thread, this seems correct.

And what ycz is probably referring to is holding down/back to keep jabbing quickly? All that does is ensure you only get jab 1, so you can jab 1 over and over at the speed of jab 1. Samus' jab isn't that good on paper framewise compared to other jabs, but she has good range on it and thus can space it on shields. Popping out a move in less than every 20 frames (so roughly 3 jabs a second) is still pretty fast if the jab really does have no IASA frames. Especially when you consider OoS options usually involve jumpsquat or shield dropping before anything else.

As a small sidenote, 17 frames for a jab is not bad at all. Fox and Sheik also have 17 frame jabs (first hit), but they have IASA on frame 16 and functional second jabs. What makes hers worse is the swing, but also that the hit comes out on frame 3-4 instead of 2-3, making it verrrrry slightly less safe on shield. Jabbing shields isn't supposed to be safe, it's a mixup.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I got excited for a moment thinking her jab had IASA frames =p even IASA frame 15/16 would have made my day. All well I still love Samus' jab.

 

[abcool]

Keep up the good work guys. I am writing all of this down in notepad. Looks like i just learned how to understand frame data

 

[Violence]

Not against this, but I really hate it when Falcon gets to run around because things get messy quickly. For one, Falcon can nair (or use any aerial) through the missiles, so while missile play is good, it can still be stuffed.

Dude, that's what you want. Missiles aren't always for hitting people, they bait reactions too.

They nair, they've committed. They can't do anything except nair through your missile. You can now proceed to outspace them wtih dsmash, fsmash, utilt, whatever the hell you want. If nairing through projectiles was good, then Peach's turnips would suck and Doc's pills would suck. They don't, because nairing through projectiles is still committing to an action against a character that punishes commitment.

 

[bubbaking]

I was going to edit this into my previous post about frame advantage on shield, but then I fell asleep, so I guess I'll just make a new post.

When looking at frame advantages, there are some important numbers that you should always keep in mind to get a better idea of the big picture. Below are both universal numbers, shared by the entire cast, and numbers specific to certain characters who are quite important in the OoS department, characters you should pay quite close attention to when attacking their shields:

• 1 = Minimum # of frames jumpsquat adds to any JC action being done OoS (upB, usmash, etc).
• 2 = # of frames a shield plat drop takes, so add this to the start-up of whatever aerial the opponent would be using to hit you OoS.
• 3-8 = # of frames jumpsquat takes for every character (ranges from 3 for Fox to 8 for Bowser), so add this to the start-up of whatever aerial the opponent would be using to hit you OoS.
• 5 = Frame on which the hitbox of Samus' upB OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 4 hitbox). The move is invincible for 5 frames after the jumpsquat (frames 2 to 6).
• 6 = Frame on which the hitbox of Bowser's upB OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 5 hitbox). The move is invincible for 4 frames after the jumpsquat (frames 2 to 5).
• 7 = # of frames it takes for most shieldgrabs to come out. In other words, if a move is -7 or worse on shield and you space it poorly, then you can count on getting grabbed.
• 8 = Frame on which the hitbox of Fox's usmash OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 7 hitbox). In other words, if a move is -8 or worse on shield and you space it poorly against Fox, then you can count on being usmashed. This is extremely important to know because our two moves most used for shield pressure, ftilt and utilt, are -17 and -10 on block, respectively. What does this mean? Even though it's safe when spaced, if you decide to be lazy and just use a utilt directly in front of Fox's shield at any damage above 100%, you can just kiss that stock goodbye!
• 10 = # of frames of WL lag, so add this to the total # of jumpsquat frames for whatever character is WDing to acquire the # of frames it takes that character to WD OoS. This information is also very important. For instance, it takes Sheik 20 frames to WD OoS > grab (3 frame jumpsquat + 10 frame WL + 7 frame grab). Likewise, it takes Fox the exact same number of frames to WD usmash OoS (same jumpsquat and his usmash is also 7 frames). This is why, when spaced, Samus' tilts are so safe on shields, despite being so negative frame-wise on paper.

 

[Gea]

Great info, Bubba.

 

[bubbaking]

Thanks! I actually forgot one very crucial piece of info (wavelanding lag) that I just edited into that post now.

 

[McNinja]

Huh. I knew Samus had invincibility frames on up b, but I didn't know bowser did. Great post bubba! This is important stuff to know.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Great post bubba. It really stresses the importance of spaced tilts on certain character shields.



Edit: Just wanna get this straight.

Pokemon Stadium - short hop missile cancels
Dream Land - rapid double jump missile cancels
Battlefield - rapid double jump missile cancels
YS - rapid double jump missile cancels
FD - full hop double missiles
FoD - short hop missile cancels(barring no transformation)


Correct all that are wrong, please give a small description. Pretty sure I have at least two wrong.

Edit2: I was browsing through some stage data and noticed the shape of PS:

Would it be possible to do the low recovery like how we do on FoD?

 

[GunPunch]

Haven't posted in a while :/

Great stuff happening on the Samus boards here! I just learned so much about frame data. Also, I just watched some of Andymosity's pool matches from Kings of Cali. Good stuff, definitely enjoyed watching some Samus play i haven't seen before.

Robinhood, i would add short hop missiles to the FD missile list. Even if you don't fastfall them, they provide a spam of missiles at ground level. Also, they can be smash or homing missiles which is good for mix-ups. Other possilbilites could be short hop and MC a homing missile the follow with a standing smash missile. Idk, I think I do this sometimes (not sure how useful/good it is, lol). Personally, I use short hop missiles on YS. And don't forget things like running off the top platform and MC on one lower platforms. Also, I watched one of the Phanna-mint vids again the other day and there was some good use of homing platform MC > drop and MC. I need to practice that....

 

[McNinja]

Also @Robin, you CAN recover on poke like you can on FoD, but it is much more difficult. And on Yoshi's I usually just do the short hop missle cancel on the plats.

Although it kind of depends where you are doing it because of the slanted sides.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, what he said. Also, I like to just FH missile sometimes because it's easier and reliable, especially since the timings of super and homing missiles are different.

Just wanna get this straight.

Dream Land - rapid double jump missile cancels
Battlefield - rapid double jump missile cancels

Yeah, sometimes I will just do FH MCs on these stages. Depends on how I'm feeling. Also, I find that recovering low in the manner that you speak of is difficult primarily because the stage does a really good job of obscuring your view thanks to the camera angle.

 

[GunPunch]

Yea, PS gives me the most difficulties when recovering. It might be my least favorite stage. I also don't like FD for certain match-ups.

 

[bubbaking]

My least favorite stage is probably.......I actually don't know, maybe BF because of the precision needed to tether the ledges. I actually like PS a lot unless I'm going against spacees. The platforms are nice for MCs, utilt pokes, TCs, and a plethora of other things and their layout is pretty helpful. I also don't really mind the transformations (when I'm Samus); they just tend to help me live longer or give me more avenues of mobility. BF isn't that bad either; it's just that the ledge can be frustrating sometimes.