~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[ColinJF]

Actually, it's not special to her down tilt. All moves that hit the opponent into the surface they are on with a force less than 2000 have the exact same mechanics. For example, Ness's down air normally always launches with forces above 2000, so you never see it do this, but if you hit a metal character (at low damage), they will get the familiar 'dizzy' animation and have a chance to trip. Of course, if the force you are hit into the ground with is less than 2000, then the ground absorbs the force entirely.

Unfortunately I don't know what kind of frame advantage 'dizzy' offers you, but I do know that you can SDI these dizzying hits.

 

[Kataefi]

I meant it was special in that it had it's own animation or something ^^

Considering you're in the smash lab, do you suppose you could ask for Zelda's in depth frame data (particularly dtilt)? I would be so thankful!

 

[ColinJF]

I asked a friend (HotGarbage) to check out what frame advantage 'dizzy' gives the attacker and he said he'd have that by tomorrow.

As for the hitstun of a hit that 'reflects' you off the ground, that's completely typical. As I said above, the number of frames of hitstun is proportional to launch force, but it's also proportional to fall acceleration class. I don't know these fall acceleration class values yet, but I'm planning on figuring that out some time in the near future. Of note: hitstun is based on the force that hit you into the ground, including the force that the ground absorbed.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Okie, now that I've caught up with homework, I can really get down and work on this.

Polmex23 and and a few of his friends (Monk, lime_backwards) are coming by tomorrow to practice before we all go to Gigs. I will try to use this on them around percents of 40% and greater to see if what I said is right. Since all their mains are Bair-able OoS, I'll get plenty of opportunities to attempt Dtilt hitstun to reverse-buffered Bair.

Beforehand, I'll probably just try it at any damage against them to see if they can stop it with normal DI or an attack such as an Up+B or jab.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Double Post

On the subject of pop up Dtilt to LK of any kind, if they air dodge immediately, stall for a second and then tag with a LK. Out of airdodge, they usually cannot do anything for a few frames and that's when they are open.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'm sorry for the triple post but I have really good news!

On a Practice dummy, the entire cast minus Kirby, Squirtle and MK and be hit by non-trip Dtilt to reverse buffered Bair. D*** you MK!! On G&W it may be inescapable since it appears it takes him quite a bit to get out of stun.

Now actual player testing will be later today to see if it can be power shielded and so on and so forth but like you said Kataefi, this can be the ultimate surprise attack.

I don't understand MK and Kirby since Jiggs can be gotten fairly easy, I think the way they get hit prevents them from getting hit by Bair.

 

[Kataefi]

All we need now then is the frame advantage! I knew it wouldn't on MK, how could they have the best character in the game be killed like this =O Keep testing anyways!

 

[goodkid]

All we need now then is the frame advantage! I knew it wouldn't on MK, how could they have the best character in the game be killed like this =O Keep testing anyways!

Idk if this could work, I am only to get 2 d-tilts on Kirby before he f-smashes or retaliates. It would be great if this could work though!

 

[Kataefi]

Okay, so I've been testing the pop up.

She has a window of opportunity to sweetspot consistently with her Fair on all characters providing they pop up at a certain height.

I tested Pit. Window for Fair sweetspot from a pop up is 110% - 134%. And for Bair sweetspot it's 102% - 125%. This will work on him.

However, I believe they can airdodge in time. This was only tested on level 9 CPUs, who have godly reflexes... so I'm not sure how credible this potential 'combo' could be.

Bowser has a huge window for sweetspotting the moment he is popped up. Fair sweetspot from a pop up is 93% - 155% =O

I also believe that if they enter dizzy animation she can connect a utilt, but yet again I need frame data =/

 

[Villi]

It never occured to me to test the dizzy animation. T_T Hopefully the data from hotgarbage will come. I borrowed a friend's Wii for a day and took a couple of hours capture doing everything I could think of... Hopefully I'll be able to get some good frame data from it when I get the chance.

 

[ColinJF]

The length of dizzy turned out to be a function of the force that hits you into the ground (even though the ground absorbs the whole force).

This is the number of frames of dizzy when Zelda's fresh down tilt is used on Pit when used at various percents before the hit.

0%: 14 (-5 advantage)
10%: 16
20%: 18
30%: 20
40%: 22
50%: 25
60%: 27
70%: 29

I suspect this actually follows the same formula as hitstun, except the ground is absorbing the force that it's based on. I plan on verifying this hypothesis tomorrow by figuring out that force, but I figured I'd update you guys now.

 

[Kataefi]

Omg. Let me get this straight - At 70% percent, Pit is stunned for 29 frames of dizzy animation?

I might be jumping to conclusions too soon, but that's ample time to get a buffered SH Fair or SH bair in the mix =O

 

[Villi]

Omg. Let me get this straight - At 70% percent, Pit is stunned for 29 frames of dizzy animation?

I might be jumping to conclusions too soon, but that's ample time to get a buffered SH Fair or SH bair in the mix =O

that's a +15 frame advantage. sh bair would be ~10 frames and fair would be ~13. wtf......................! I need to borrow another Wii! *jizzes in pants* seriously, are you kidding me with this. xD

Why have I never followed up a dtilt that didn't launch with a lightning kick before? Hmm...

 

[Kataefi]

Lmao.... I think we just found ourselves something special.

Do these frame advantages slowly go down as dtilt stales? or does the +5% bonus thingy simply just vanish and then it's fixed and relative according to the enemy's %s as seen above?

EDIT:: **** **** **** villi start TESTING. I'm about to climax!

EDIT:: And it's true... she CAN sweetspot from when they enter dizzy animation. Just tested this on Pit and Peach. She can do Fair and Bair, though buffered bair is much easier. Peach is easier to sweetspot slightly than Pit is with the Fair, but both are easy with the Bair.

Villi, SH bair is 10 frames but is that with the frames it takes for her to turn around?

Now what this means is... with a high enough frame advantage, she can do a dtilt dizzy > sweetspot (as a TRUE combo) on the entire cast except MK, Squirtle and Pika.

Top tier anyone? lmao

 

[Villi]

Lmao.... I think we just found ourselves something special.

Do these frame advantages slowly go down as dtilt stales? or does the +5% bonus thingy simply just vanish and then it's fixed and relative according to the enemy's %s as seen above?

EDIT:: **** **** **** villi start TESTING. I'm about to climax!

Well, if the amount of times I've *** ***** Marth with dtilt is any indication... The frame advantage probably becomes pretty stable (it prolly changes though) after 50% until it stops decaying and the frame advantage rises with his percent.

 

[Kataefi]

Okay then....

I'm going to conclude.

Dtilt dizzy > SH Fair sweetspot / SH buffered Bair sweetspot actually works.

This is big news to me.

 

[Villi]

Villi, SH bair is 10 frames but is that with the frames it takes for her to turn around?

Now what this means is... with a high enough frame advantage, she can do a dtilt dizzy > sweetspot (as a TRUE combo) on the entire cast except MK, Squirtle and Pika.

Top tier anyone? lmao

Her turn around prolly takes a frame... I watched your Yoshi video and I think it would look/be faster if you buffered your turn around and bair during your dtilt. But maybe you did, I don't have a Wii to check right now :/ Edit: As luck would have it, standing up from her dtilt might take a few frames, too. It would make her fair faster since you can cancel that animation with a jump.

I rewatched it and I bet the lag is from standing up from dtilt. I'd take a fair sweetspot on who it works on, and settle for a bair sweetspot if I hafta tho.

 

[-Mars-]

Wow this stuff is really the biggest advancement we've had in Zelda's metagame in a while......very good work Villi and Kata. This kind of stuff can move your character 5-8 slots up the tier list.

So let me get this straight, if they don't trip because of the dtilt.....i'm guaranteed a bair or fair? Or are you guys just talking about when they're put into the tumbling animation after being popped up in the air at high percents?

 

[Kataefi]

No there's a specific kind of animation they have at around 50% which apparently is when the true dtilt lock starts. Basically, dtilting them roughly after 50% will make them start having different and longer animations.

During this, she has a window to sweetspot. I've tested this now, and Marth can be hit with a Dtilt > buffered SH Fair sweetspot from this animation.

You do realise... Marth being light (around Zelda's weight), this could make the matchup a lot more even?

I'm looking into more characters this could work on ^^ But so far, Marth is good news!

 

[Villi]

Dtilt lock: Jiggz 40, Marth 50, DDD 60. DK and Samus = no.

To describe the dizzy animation... Donkey Kong does a dramatic spin in the air that keeps him out of range of the dtilt hitbox, then lands on the floor with 0 lag. That's why he can powershield. Peach lurches forward and holds her crown or something ridiculous like that. Then there's the regular hitstun animation and the tripping animation. The hurtboxes contort, so I'm not sure if a fair would hit a character like Peach since those are headshots when she's standing upright. I still think it's looking good. It might make dtilt to up tilt semi-obsolete since this will allow you to dtilt lock at mid percent to rack up damage and then theoretically give you a fresh or almost fresh lightning kick set up.

 

[Kataefi]

I've just figured out how to buffer the SH Bair from a Dtilt now. It's about the same speed as SH Fair, though I believe it's slightly faster =O

Characters who aren't susceptible to being sweetspotted from the Fair can be done via the buffered Bair.

Here's my list so far:

Fair Sweetspot from Dizzy Animation

- Marth
- Bowser
- Rob

Bair Sweetspot from Dizzy Animation

- Marth
- Bowser
- Rob
- Lucario
- Peach
- Ike
- Link
- Pit
- Sonic

They currently don't work at all on:

- DDD (wtf?)
- Luigi
- Diddy
- MK

DDD has surprised me, though we still have the trip combo on him which is unescapable. So build up damage with Dtilt and wait for the trip to finish him off with Bair.

 

[Villi]

Diddy, nooooooooooooo. I think DDD might have been the reason I didn't think this would work on anyone. Ok, so I guess dtilt to up tilt isn't exactly obsolete. But I love that I can dtilt lock Marth and still possibly have a dtilt based kill set up, in case of failed spike.

 

[Brinzy]

I just got up and ****ing danced to this.


Seriously, this makes me so ****ing happy to be a Zelda main!!! I'm gonna start practicing this and I'm gonna check some other things to test out, too.

EDIT: I think MK can't be hit by a rising lightning kick anyway, so this probably won't work at all. :/

EDIT 2: Same for Pikachu.

 

[Kataefi]

I will try to get videos of this in action - but I'm not a very technical Zelda fingerwise. I seriously struggle with quick fingerwork, but I'll get the timing down and try to get a few videos up.

If I'm struggling I'll need help from one of yous who can possibly do it better ^^!

Btw... @ the list, it's not a full list, I bet this works on a large portion of the cast who are semi-tall.

 

[Brinzy]

I don't think we even need to test Zelda.

Just kidding - we do, but she's still a lot like Peach thanks to game design. This probably works on her, but I'm gonna test more pretty soon.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm not joking when I say we can kill Marth very early if we get this down!

 

[Brinzy]

Did you have %s down that this could kill Marth? I can't consistently dtilt -> bair because I'm incompetent, lol.

I was actually working on a killing guide for Zelda and I only tested her lightning kicks. Here was part of said "guide" that I was working on:

Zelda’s Bair from the center of FD:

Snake 79%
Bowser 78%
Donkey Kong 77%
Charizard 77%
Samus 76%
Dedede 76%
Ganondorf 75%
Yoshi 74%
Wario 74%
R.O.B. 74%
Ike 73%
Captain Falcon 73%
Link 73%
Wolf 73%
Lucario 72%
Ivysaur 72%
Mario 71%
Luigi 71%
Sonic 70%
Ness 70%
Pit 70%
Lucas 70%
Diddy Kong 69%
Toon Link 69%
Ice Climber 69%
Peach 68%
Marth 67%
Sheik 66%
Zelda 66%
Falco 65%
Olimar 65%
Zero Suit Samus 65%
Fox 64%
Pikachu 64%
Meta Knight 64%
Kirby 63%
Squirtle 62%
Mr. Game & Watch 62%
Jigglypuff 59%


Bear in mind that this was done with the opponent doing "perfect" things, like DI-ing to the top corner of FD, using aerials to slow things down, etc. I also used M2K's weight list and each character's horizontal momentum killing.

The wonderful thing I never realized (because we just discovered this) is how easy it is to do this. Pit dies at 70% - that is, according to Colin's thing, a *guaranteed* death if you bair him after the kick (assuming it doesn't trip). Hell, dtilt him at about 65%. It puts him at the right range, and it leaves you with enough time to land bair. (~13 frame advantage for Zelda, while bair takes 10 frames to pull off like that... giving you a few frames if you're human.)

That is how great this is. Holy hell, I gotta test more of this. I don't have fair's kill %s, but you can bet I'm gonna find them.

 

[Kataefi]

It's not just that... but Marth can be hit by the Fair and the Bair, so who cares if one stales... the other will finish the job. It's one stumble for this happen if a player masters this =O

But, what we need to consider is other options - the fact she gets this frame advantage means she can any move on anyone from a stumble that's under 15 frames and it cannot be shielded =O Free USmash, DSmash, Ftilt, Grab + pummel etc etc... a great damage builder!

 

[Brinzy]

I've been using the dtilt -> ftilt combo actually. Sometimes I want to conserve my Dsmash, so I'll do this on a trip. It has comparable range to Fsmash too, so it's all good.

Dtilt is Zelda's best move, period.


I should get back to more testing. I don't have anything to get frame data, though. Colin, I see that you tested Pit. Do you happen to know off hand anyone who recovers much quicker from stuff like dtilt in general? Is there a difference? God I can't wait to see the answer.

 

[Villi]

Hold up, remember that frame advantage is percent dependant. Tho... I still think that a walking dtilt lock would be badass.

Raph, those percents are super low. That's with good DI, an aerial, and moving toward the stage? T_T I'm addicted to sourspots... people survive my lightning kicks at 80% wahhhh

 

[Brinzy]

Yes, but of course this was in Training mode, so there was no move decay. Realistically speaking, they're much higher. I think I pointed that out in my guide but I failed to copy that.

Not to mention, again, that was on FD, and I think that of all neutral stages, it has the furthest distance from the center to a corner. More reason to pick Battlefield, I say. Of course, I say that if fair can be used in place of bair, go with that.

EDIT: And yeah, it's % dependent, but I mentally just put down that dtilt lock % is earlier than dtilt -> lightning kick, simply because there's a five frame difference between dtilt and a SH'd, turnaround bair. We still have the normal lock if they're too low, but now if we, say, tried to start the lock much later than normal, we could use this instead.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I can now laugh at myself that I helped figured something out lol. Thanks you guys for helping to test that out so much!

I am shocked that DDD, Wigi, and Diddy don't work since the only ones I couldn't kick with Dtilt to reversed buffered Bair was Kirby, MK, and Squirtle.

How were they able to get out?

 

[Villi]

EDIT: And yeah, it's % dependent, but I mentally just put down that dtilt lock % is earlier than dtilt -> lightning kick, simply because there's a five frame difference between dtilt and a SH'd, turnaround bair. We still have the normal lock if they're too low, but now if we, say, tried to start the lock much later than normal, we could use this instead.

Yah, I'll have to see if ending a dtilt lock with a dsmash and then going for a dtilt -> bair kill would be possible at an ideal percent. That way I can damage rack, refresh an indiscriminately decayed bair, and then kill with it all at once. ^o^

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda has definitely gotten better from this.

+spam <3

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah I'm happy that we've at least got somewhere in her metagame ^^ Dtilt was always a really interesting move.

And walking Dtilt to the ledge would be amazing - there would be nothing they could do! The frame advantage has opened up a lot of options, even her grab game could be legit from this.

This is something we have to explore deeper!

EDIT:: I found a nice easy to buffer. I dtilt, and when she places her leg out, I move the control stick diagonally down the other way she's facing so she'll automatically buffer her turn, and I have L set to jump so I can hold down and buffer the SH into the bair.

Don't know how you other guys do it but it seems to work alright for me ^^

 

[Kataefi]

*BIG NEWS*

I'm double posting because it is that big.

Any non-trip animation when the lock is put into effect using Dtilt (i.e. around or after 50%) is known as "Dizzy" according to our dear Colin. The animation looks different but they should still suffer the same amount of stun, whether they fall to the floor in dizziness or not.

What this could mean now is that she can most likely sweetspot the entire cast except MK, Pika and Squirtle, though it still needs to more testing!!

 

[ColinJF]

All I said is that I personally have been calling both the animations "dizzy". It's probably worth giving them separate names.

(I'll answer some other things that were addressed to me later.)

 

[Kage Me]

I also believe that if they enter dizzy animation she can connect a utilt, but yet again I need frame data =/

Once they start popping up, you can also hit them with a d-tilt --> f-tilt --> u-tilt at low-ish percentages. Might be escapable, though.

 

[Kataefi]

Lol yeah sorry colin, I just got a bit excited and tried to translate what you said into Zelda Dtilt language.

Anyways, the animation shouldn't affect the amount of stun, but the animation does affect some of their hurtboxes. Like when Peach falls to the floor and holds her crown or whatever, it's difficult to bair her, but when she scrunches up instead, she's very easy to bair. If they share the same stun anyways, then I'd take the latter animation if it's easier to get the sweetspot.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

This is awesome that this turned out to work.

Now on certain characters, we can use the trip combos to build quick damage while keeping kill moves relatively fresh.

While on other characters, we can now kill relatively easier using Dtilt-Dizzy -> reverse buffered Bair.

Question to Kataefi: Although I can do this fairly well, would quarter-circling the joystick to buffer work just as well as going straight to the diagonal or would it mess up the spacing? How I do it is I try to either tap to the side to reverse buffer and then I tap my jump and C-stick nearly at the same time. Kind of the timing like Sheik's DACUS.

On a side note, this frame advantage gives me a little space for error. WOO-HOO!