Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[leffen]

double post

D;

 

[leffen]

im with lovage on this one
jesus u guys are stupid -_-

how hard youre punished (or how hard you could be) has NOTHING to do with how hard that READ was, that has to do with how "hard" the commitment was (smart people just call it a risky read, which is what it is)

the fact that you guys use tech chase as a example of what a "hard" read is really shows how screwed up this community is. The neutral game involve so much more and "harder" reads (as in they have a bazillion options) each required to be decided fast and based on reaction while at the you need to stay alert to react to the outcome of every little mixup you and your opponent do.

When you tech chase you have a ****load of time with no direct fear of punishment, its incredibly easy technically and they have 3 fkn options which can all be reacted to and your "hard" read is just standing and charging usmash.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm using tech chase because its the simplest way to point out a scenario where a person can have a small number of options. The number of options can be further reduced through a straight cover on those options, at which point the opponent has a simple A or B decision to make. Reading that decision is something even low level players get familiar with. Reading leads to reaction. There are different levels of reads based on confidence in that read.

Calling people stupid because they have a different definition of a term than you is... quite simply... a very clear mark of stupidity. Language by nature is democratic. If the vast majority of us feel like defining it that way, then it is as we define, not as you define. So how bout you eat a **** you condescending piece of garbage. It doesn't matter how good at smash you get. You're still a prick.

Spoiler

Joking around aside:

To use a more familiar grounds of "from neutral", a hard read is seeing the opponent in neutral, and inherently KNOWING they will use a very specific approach. A normal read in this situation is just reading the intent to approach, not what approach is actually used. It is a variance in confidence, not in difficulty. Hard to me refers to how solid my assumption of their action is. 100% confidence in knowing my opponent's action gives me such a hard... read...

 

[unknown522]

2 things: I like this discussion

Also from what I understand 'hard read' doesn't have anything to do with the difficulty of the read.

I still hate the term though

 

[Armada]

Hmm. I remember having a discussion with armada, mango, and one other person (Amsah I think. Or ice maybe) at apex about reacting vs predicting and how just straight reaction is underrated and underused for things like edgeguarding and tech chasing. Especially by the lower leveled players. We all agreed.

Yeah Im not surprised a lot of other players agreed on this one. The thing with reaction (in many situations) is that you choose to be sure to punish the option the make. With makeing a guess/read you pretty much decide before and can' cover everything in most cases.

As a fox player I can recomend this.
If you are playing fox against some fastfaller and use u-throw uppsmash and they DI away use one dash. Then you react on whatever he does (one more dash in the direction he rolls) or just use shield if try to do a get up attack.

Don't know how much worse it is in NTSC casue the uppsmash is way stronger but in Pal it works really good at least. If it dosen't work good in NTSC it dosen't really matter so much cause this kind of situation happens after a lot of nairs when they hit the ground.

 

[PGH Carroll]

a whole armada post without a "=)"

</3

 

[omgwtfToph]

It works in NTSC. THANK YOU FOR GRACING THE FOX BOARDS WITH YOUR PRESENCE ARMADA

 

[unknown522]

Yeah Im not surprised a lot of other players agreed on this one. The thing with reaction (in many situations) is that you choose to be sure to punish the option the make. With makeing a guess/read you pretty much decide before and can' cover everything in most cases.

As a fox player I can recomend this.
If you are playing fox against some fastfaller and use u-throw uppsmash and they DI away use one dash. Then you react on whatever he does (one more dash in the direction he rolls) or just use shield if try to do a get up attack.

Don't know how much worse it is in NTSC casue the uppsmash is way stronger but in Pal it works really good at least. If it dosen't work good in NTSC it dosen't really matter so much cause this kind of situation happens after a lot of nairs when they hit the ground.

yeah, it's pretty good in NTSC. I do it in tourney matches mostly to make sure that I get some good damage in. The only problem with it is that sometimes when the opponent DIs away, they can grab the ledge (or sometimes edge-cancel). It doesn't happen too often, but I remember it happening to me personally a couple of times (vs raynex, weon-x, and kirbykaze a few times I u-throw -> up-smashed them from the center of dreamland [no DI on the throw], then they DI'd the up-smash away and it sent them far enough to edge-cancel -> ledge-grab).

Despite that though, it's not really a bad thing getting an opponent to the edge of the stage.



Edit: can't sleep. Dunno why

 

[Armada]

DJnicholas rage: Had another post in the falco boards a couple min ago without that smile <3

Unknown: Yeah I know. It's pretty bad when inte happens but I think you can learn the combination of percent/distance and how far they possible can fly. After learning that it should not be a problem to mix it up.

 

[Cactuar]

People think reaction-chasing Fox's downthrow is much harder than it really is. The timing window is pretty generous once you know each step of possible options through the dthrow. For an easy possible upsmash when you can't/don't feel confident in upair, its worth learning.

 

[Grape Ape]

Does that work on the entire cast? It seems to good to be true

 

[Bing]

Yhii, Bo3/Bo5 and I dont really care how much money... like 2-5$(Sorry Im poor D

 

[Lovage]

not a fan of dthrow tech chasing in most cases (only time i would consider it over uthrow is if they're in a really tricky spot/percent and i'm 100% sure my uthrow won't get me any damage, even then i'd prolly just bthrow techchase or bthrow off ledge.)

overall it just doesn't make sense to waste your opportunity on something that gives such a tiny reward. an uthrow is such huge damage once you get good at fox lol, a dthrow is... a 7% regrab kool beanz.

 

[Bing]

Okay so Im rather enjoying life as a Fox main. But I do have a small issue.

Most Fox mains have a pocket Falco, I no matter how much I try, my Falco sucks, and I dont feel like frustrating myself over it. Now I do however have a pretty decent Peach, Marth and Doc. Which would be the best to use as a Secondary?
As Fox I struggle against Falco's but I do better as Doc and Marth, never tried Peach, though I know that MU isnt that great... any thoughts?

 

[Lovage]

secondaries are fun but you are a ****ing fox main, there's absolutely no point in trying to raise up your secondaries to tournament level. you're gonna just end up sucking more with both of your characters and you're gonna look like a big pu$$y for trying to counterpick matchups that don't need counterpicking.

having said that (and i hope you realize there's no point in taking your secondaries seriously,) secondaries are hella fun. it can get really tedious playing fox for hours and hours (personally it hurts my hands if i just stick to fox lol) so you should definitely play some falco or marth or whatever you like if you ever get bored. fun fact: your crummy secondaries will get astronomically better as you get better at the game, even if you barely play them lol.

 

[Bones0]

What Lovage is trying to say is that all Fox mains should have low tier secondaries.

 

[Bing]

I know exactly what he's saying, I dabble around with every Character. Like, all of them.

Now I also have that issue, I get this weird feeling in my hands and I start to play poorly. And I basically only use Fox as is. Infact last tournament, I went all Fox. Just Im thinking about using another character against a few Falco's Until I figure out the MU.

But yeah, Fox is kinda ****.

And yeah I noticed all my characters get better as my Fox does too, its kind of cool I feel faster, smarter, more technically sound, etc etc.

 

[FoxLisk]

i like it when people jump down my throat for using a slightly different word to mean the exact same thing they do

thats why i come to the fox boards! ^.^

 

[omgwtfToph]

not a fan of dthrow tech chasing in most cases (only time i would consider it over uthrow is if they're in a really tricky spot/percent and i'm 100% sure my uthrow won't get me any damage, even then i'd prolly just bthrow techchase or bthrow off ledge.)

overall it just doesn't make sense to waste your opportunity on something that gives such a tiny reward. an uthrow is such huge damage once you get good at fox lol, a dthrow is... a 7% regrab kool beanz.

no it's not

a dthrow is an usmash lol

usmash and grab are both 7 frames. in any situation where u can techchase w/ grab, you can techchase with usmash.

i've been doing dthrow techchase to samus and peach recently and it ***** pretty fkn hard

 

[Tee ay eye]

there is absolutely no reason (in terms of stages and matchups) to have a secondary if you're a fox main unless your reason is "i'm bad at this game and don't want to learn how to play an even/favorable MU"

 

[ShroudedOne]

I like the Arthur rep, Tai. A good part of my early childhood.

 

[JPOBS]

What Lovage is trying to say is that all Fox mains should have low tier secondaries.

Word, that's why I second marth.

 

[unknown522]

People think reaction-chasing Fox's downthrow is much harder than it really is. The timing window is pretty generous once you know each step of possible options through the dthrow. For an easy possible upsmash when you can't/don't feel confident in upair, its worth learning.

IMO it's bad. There's so many variables to DI plus the lag from the throw itself gives you little to no time

The exceptions being vs characters with bad tech rolls I guess. But most of them are low tier anyway aside from jiggs.

But yeah, you can prove me wrong I guess.



Edit: I didn't see armada post before. My bad. On Yoshi's FoD and battlefield, they can hit the edge at 0% before the throw from center stage

 

[Lovage]

no it's not

a dthrow is an usmash lol

usmash and grab are both 7 frames. in any situation where u can techchase w/ grab, you can techchase with usmash.

i've been doing dthrow techchase to samus and peach recently and it ***** pretty fkn hard

missing the point. what i meant by my post was uthrow is guaranteed damage on lots of characters (even if there isn't a follow-up vs samus or luigi it's still way better than dthrow solely because of the positioning advantage it gives,) and there's no reason in stressing yourself over super fast reaction-based tech chasing when you can just uthrow usmash them for free damage lol. consistent high damage > super difficult, consistent mediocre damage.

 

[omgwtfToph]

good on peach and puff at above uthrow uair %'s and good on samus and the mario bros whenever

i mean ****ing duh uthrow is way better 95% of the time against 95% of the characters but that doesn't mean an underused move is bad. literally all of fox's moves are good lol

 

[Beat!]

Word, that's why I second marth.

Touché.

One day you'll regret those words.

 

[Cactuar]

It's bad when you think of it in terms of how you can combo out of it.

It is really good when you think of it in terms of "this move automatically sets them at neutral position, with me at the attacking advantage, so I get a free pressure scenario". Most players probably won't be able to land the punishments consistently straight out of the dthrow chase, but nearly anyone can follow the opponent fast enough to be in that beneficial position.

And yeah, it is better vs midweight characters. I don't remember how often I was using it over uthrow uair vs Armada, but I would switch between uthrow and dthrow pretty regularly.

When a person knows 100% that you are going to upthrow against them, they gain an instinctive reaction. In most cases, that ends up being "I'll DI behind him" or, at the edge, "I'll DI off stage". On the first use of a different throw, the person first has to process seeing NOT what they expected, and then process what did happen, and then, if they have time, react. This also makes them hesitate the next time you grab them because they become unsure of what throw you will use. This shifts the point of their focus from "what should I do after I DI behind or off stage?" back to "Which way should I DI?" The fewer steps you allow your opponent to think ahead, the more visible their game becomes.

To Lovage's point though, if a Fox player grabbed another Fox at like 5%, it would be super sub-optimal to go for dthrow techchases with the intent of adding damage. Dthrow techchasing for adding damage should only be used against characters with abysmally slow techs, and even then, should be used in limited quantity and more to learn their patterns and attempt to land single large blows, such as a kill % upsmash or, if they roll to the edge, doubleshines. One of the huge benefits of using dthrow is the amount of space you control after the dthrow. It isn't the direct followup.

 

[Bing]

Im fine with Fox, I just like having something to "fall back" on incase Im having a bad day or anything, and I like having other characters that I can call a secondary... despite the fact they probably wont ever be used in Tournament... Anywho Im just not going to have a secondary - If my Fox is doing poorly.. Ill just switch to neutral coloured Fox and all will be good


Also I was just thinking about the Thunders combo and I was wondering if you could shine-jab and just keep shine-jabbing across the stage about 3-4 times then throw in the uair. Just a thought on building a couple extra percent.

 

[Bones0]

Why is dthrow better vs. midweight characters?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Because up throw doesn't directly combo them.

Although tbh I'd probably b-throw or f-throw those guys just because then I get to pick the direction they're going.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I like to uthrow them still. You can fullhop autocancel uair, which forces them to jump (uair spaced to trade/beat their break out moves) and after they jump you get to hunt them down. Its fun.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

When a person knows 100% that you are going to upthrow against them, they gain an instinctive reaction. In most cases, that ends up being "I'll DI behind him" or, at the edge, "I'll DI off stage". On the first use of a different throw, the person first has to process seeing NOT what they expected, and then process what did happen, and then, if they have time, react. This also makes them hesitate the next time you grab them because they become unsure of what throw you will use. This shifts the point of their focus from "what should I do after I DI behind or off stage?" back to "Which way should I DI?" The fewer steps you allow your opponent to think ahead, the more visible their game becomes.

Cactus, I'd understand this argument if dthrow's animation wasn't a million hours long...

I mean, your opponent has ample time to think "ho hum, I got grabbed, time to DI the uthrow -- oh ****, a dthrow! -- <tech decision>" before the animation ends...I think most players will continue to DI the uthrow and then adjust whenever they see a dthrow.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But theres a lot of traps and they wouldn't be planning ahead for the dthrow and would more likely to just tech in a direction on reaction. If they were DIing off stage for the uthrow, they might tech that direction getting themselves trapped at the edge for an easy reaction usmash. Also like cactuar was saying, even at worst case and both of you are reset to neutral, you have the attacking advantage.

 

[Cactuar]

It is still forcing them to react as opposed to not have to react at all. The point isn't that they are able to react to the dthrow happening. It is that they can't be sure that you will upthrow every time. If you don't understand the significance of this, you have bigger problems to worry about.


As for dthrow techchasing: The vast majority of the time, a dthrow should be used when an edge of the stage will cut off the full distance of the tech roll in that direction. This makes the tech chase on the dthrow look like this:

Dash towards the middle when possible.
Mid-dash...
-----------
Did they miss the tech? If yes, dash back and upsmash/dash attack/etc them before they gain the action window of the no tech.
Did you react too slow and miss the no-action window? If yes, shield slide into their position and anticipate getup attack.
Did they tech? If yes, dash back and upsmash/dash attack/grab/etc.
-----------
Did they tech in? If yes, just keep going and upsmash.
-----
Did they tech out? Normally, because a full techroll away would go too far, they would escape at this point. The edge just cut their roll distance, while the tech roll takes the same amount of time. Dash to the edge and do bad things to them.
-----------

This is the order of events as you should be processing it. These things don't all happen at the same time. You can follow the steps of the dthrow and easily cover every option through process of elimination. If at any point you **** up, just pause before you reach the opponent and prepare to throw a feint to bait a response action while they are able to control their character again.

@Bing: The problems with Thunder's Combo and linking it repeatedly:

1) One iteration of a Thunder's Combo covers a huge amount of space horizontally.
2) It relies on the other player missing the tech off shine.
3) It relies on the other player not DIing away.
etcetc

There are too many ways to escape from it to make it something that works several times in a row.

 

[rokimomi]

new fox meta: thunders out of shield [thundaga]
viable?

 

[Bing]

@Cactuar I figured as much, Im just sitting at work trying to think of new combo ideas/possibilities

 

[JPOBS]

eggm thunders oos does it incredibly consistently. only one i've seen

(lol at thundaga)

 

[PGH Carroll]

Word, that's why I second marth.

my thoughts exactly. looooool

 

[FoxLisk]

new fox meta: thunders out of shield [thundaga]
viable?

hahaha im half inclined to get this down just so i can start telling people i cast thundaga on them

 

[Turazrok]

thundaga? Sounds good.