Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[JPOBS]

blow me bookman

 

[Warhawk]

Leffen what about trying to bait punishes by using this shield pressure? I'm wondering if you can get your opponent to see this and try to punish you for being imperfect and then switch on them and punish them for trying to do so. Is that at all viable? Still kind of sounds like a gimmick but I'm curious.

 

[Brookman]

dude you are ****ing GGRRRRROOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

this discussion really ****ing sucks too.

we should talk about camping platforms instead.

 

[Lovage]

well i mean it's shield pressure, of course it has some holes lol there's no perfect or safe shield pressure in this game. technically speaking, shine OOS beats almost anything - but it's not feasible to do so on reaction.

also lovage i know you feel as though this argument has been worthless, but it provided me with a lot of entertainment so THANKS BRO

lol yea idk give leffen anything and he'll be wildin out like nick cannon


hobbies *****!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Leffen what about trying to bait punishes by using this shield pressure? I'm wondering if you can get your opponent to see this and try to punish you for being imperfect and then switch on them and punish them for trying to do so. Is that at all viable? Still kind of sounds like a gimmick but I'm curious.

Perhaps for the direct counterattacks, but this variation of the double shine can be beaten by various standard escape options such as rolling backwards and spotdodging, waiting, grabbing, and wavedashing. Grounded double shine does better against all of these than the variation Westballz displayed in those videos.

dude you are ****ing GGRRRRROOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

this discussion really ****ing sucks too.

we should talk about camping platforms instead.

I seem to have forgotten the fundamentals, I would enjoy this conversation deeply.

 

[Sinji]

this thread ***** so hard

Well it is fox...

 

[EWC]

Doing the second shine airbourne means you can jump out in 1 frame instead of 6. Assuming that it takes 1 extra frame to land (haven't checked this but it seems reasonable), that means that you have 11 frames between of total lag after the second shine. Note that this is 5 frames faster than if you did a grounded doubleshine and wavedashed in place.

I think falco's shine has 5 frames of shield stun? 11-5=6, not enough time to grab.

I might be off by a frame or 2 in the timing of the waveland. If so, there is at most a 1 frame window to grab.

Point being, there are valid options for beating this, but shield grabbing after the waveland is (probably) not one of them.

 

[Bing]

I think we all need to walk away from this discussion before people start losing limbs.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Doing the second shine airbourne means you can jump out in 1 frame instead of 6. Assuming that it takes 1 extra frame to land (haven't checked this but it seems reasonable), that means that you have 11 frames between of total lag after the second shine. Note that this is 5 frames faster than if you did a grounded doubleshine and wavedashed in place.

I think falco's shine has 5 frames of shield stun? 11-5=6, not enough time to grab.

I might be off by a frame or 2 in the timing of the waveland. If so, there is at most a 1 frame window to grab.

Point being, there are valid options for beating this, but shield grabbing after the waveland is (probably) not one of them.

BAKA!




If you double shine on the ground you don't have to airdodge, thus giving you more options, like grabbing, wavedashing away, or attacking.

 

[EWC]

And if you do an aerial shine then that one particular option (wd down) becomes stronger. Different options have different strengths. Is this news to anyone?

 

[Bing]

I honestly didnt know this. I never would have guessed that different options have different strengths.

 

[S l o X]

with the people who post here as often as they do, i don't know how there isn't more being done here. o:

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

And if you do an aerial shine then that one particular option (wd down) becomes stronger. Different options have different strengths. Is this news to anyone?

Did you know, you can do a frame perfect double shine and jump before you land on the ground allowing you to actually be faster than non-perfect double shines? So, yes, perfect double shine is better in every single way

 

[EWC]

Oh. I didn't know that.

 

[Construct]

Wes-style shine pressure is so sexy though, that alone should be worth a lot.

 

[Alotsa]

Hi guys, sorry not to sound all noobish, but can you tell me what exactly Mango is doing to dance around the stage so fast and mind game like in his Apex match against Armada? you dont need to explain what they are or how they are performed because I know all the terms and movements there just so fast I cant quite tell the exact combination of techniques that are going on to achieve what hes doing. Thanks !
-Alotsa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQqUe8SAms

 

[Wenbobular]

He dashdances mad good
And runs out of wavedashes mad fast
And fastfalls properly

 

[knightpraetor]

imperfect double shine waveland platform is better than this vs marth if you have platforms..

i actually think it has some potential against fox ...though it still doesn't compare to proper double shines..but no one seems to do those 100% consistently these days

if your opponent notices you doing it though they can just shine OOS once they realize that you aren't doing true double shines of course

you really should just be trying to outspace the shine and pressure their space more than worry about shine tricks for pressure...blocking movement options and shifting threat zones is far more important for creating shield pressure than actually hitting shields with anything...at least till someone gets too pro at double shining grounded every time.

 

[Silent Wolf]

im sure there are a lot of people who can use double shine reliably lol. theres a lot more going on in melee than whats in videos.

 

[Eclectic Echo]

im sure there are a lot of people who can use double shine reliably lol. theres a lot more going on in melee than whats in videos.

When do you see fit to double shine? You yourself. I can't implement it properly.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Double shine with Fox is good near the edge to push people off the stage so you can fish for a gimp. It also can be used out of up throw if they don't DI hard left or right to send FFers off at a really crappy angle.

There's a bunch of other stuff you can do with it, but those are the main uses for it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

im sure there are a lot of people who can use double shine reliably lol. theres a lot more going on in melee than whats in videos.

True that. Frootloop legit quad-shine-grab shield pressured me last time we played and i quit the game on the spot.

 

[Wake]

Sounds like something he'd do.

 

[unknown522]

I just read that whole argument.

About spacing falco's shine on fox's shield:

Fox's shine hitbox is bigger than falco's. You can't outspace fox's shine with his. You have to completely jump out of the way.

 

[Silent Wolf]

When do you see fit to double shine? You yourself. I can't implement it properly.

basically what kk said. i feel that a lot of the time triple shine is better for pushing them off the ledge when theyre in shield, mainly cuz a lot of the time 2 shines is too fast and they dont do anything to leave their shield quite yet (unless theyre like right against the ledge, then 2s fine) this is how i feel about multiple shines in shield pressure as well, although ive fallen out of the habit of using multishines in pressure.

i find double shine useful when i play bladewise cuz he tries to up-b me out of shield after 1 shine, so the 2nd one hits while hes on the ground still and i can follow it up. or if he does his up-b a bit late, so that its interrupted by the hit lag of the 2nd shine, he could be stuck there for a second giving me some time to act. so double shine -> wd forward works well sometimes

I just read that whole argument.

About spacing falco's shine on fox's shield:

Fox's shine hitbox is bigger than falco's. You can't outspace fox's shine with his. You have to completely jump out of the way.

i think you can, so long as fox has a good amount of shield left. there are also other variables tho, like shield DI and where hes pointing his shield. so i guess it depends.

 

[leffen]

You'd need to dodge his shine in someway and THEN enter your range(which is smaller) and shine him

in other words no fkn way you can do it using wes tech.

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

wes actually moves away very slightly with the "waveland" from the elevated shine... pretty interesting

 

[Eclectic Echo]

Thanks KK and SW. Appreciate it.

And I don't think I can pull off a triple shine. Well, never tried I guess.

 

[Deleted member]

****** thread of gheys

 

[omgwtfToph]

**** u s2j

SIKE

i know you werent talking about me

hi d0od

 

[Mahone]

honestly double shine with fox is nothing compared to double shine with falco..yet for some reason i see more foxes doing it than falcos...it's weird..i honestly think ti's just because imperfect double shines are too easy to punish unless you have a platform to waveland out of range with

-signed knightpraetor on mahone's account

 

[omgwtfToph]

^i disagree with this post a lot

 

[KirbyKaze]

Thanks KK and SW. Appreciate it.

And I don't think I can pull off a triple shine. Well, never tried I guess.

If you don't think you can do triple shines, you can just alter the timing on your double shine pressure.

[Low aerial --> delay a bit --> shine --> delay a bit --> jump shine] is a legitimate shield pressure string and unless you're fighting a space animal (and obvious other exceptions like Samus and Bowser) you can get away with stuff like that. You just can't let the gaps be big enough for them to be able to aerial OOS or shield grab and you're probably fine.

 

[WestBallz]

I just read that whole argument.

About spacing falco's shine on fox's shield:

Fox's shine hitbox is bigger than falco's. You can't outspace fox's shine with his. You have to completely jump out of the way.

LMFAO wrong looks like no one knows anything about melee these days

 

[Eclectic Echo]

Understandable. I'll work on this, just have to practice! Practice! Practice!

I just wish I had more people to play than just one. And he only plays Falcon. Bout the only experience I get other than me just practicing technical stuff by myself. lol

 

[Bing]

Understandable. I'll work on this, just have to practice! Practice! Practice!

I just wish I had more people to play than just one. And he only plays Falcon. Bout the only experience I get other than me just practicing technical stuff by myself. lol

I had this exact issue. Then he quit playing. Now I have 1 other person(well 2 because his friend plays a bit, low tiers only) But he mains Doc. So my spacie practice is whatever I can get at tournaments.

 

[leffen]

LMFAO wrong looks like no one knows anything about melee these days

dude at least explain yourself

 

[Eclectic Echo]

Yeah, it's really disappointing. I'd like more, but I guess I'll have to make do. That's why in the future I'd like to go to school in Toronto for multiple reasons. Or close anyway so I'd be able to enter tournaments.

 

[unknown522]

LMFAO wrong looks like no one knows anything about melee these days

lol. Keep dreamin

 

[Bing]

lol this is ridiculous...