Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Divinokage]

That's why he does really well all the time, duh! lol.

 

[Sinji]

I guess Kage means how you play fox. Your fox can be crappy, it just depends on how you use him.

 

[Divinokage]

I was referring to results wise, it's more randomized as you go lower on the tier list because its harder to beat top tier characters.

 

[Tee ay eye]

most of this is pretty good, but the bit about dash attack. Marth can CC it for a very very long time, even when committed to something.

I also disagree with the full-hopping bit. But maybe I just do it wrong?

Hm, I guess you're kinda right about the dash attacking part. Of course, you should only be dash attacking when your opponent has already been thrown off (i.e. they already committed to something and can't legitimately CC). I just tested it, and Marth can ASDI down Fox's dash attack without being knocked down up to 40%. Any higher than 40, and Marth will be knocked down. However, Fox's dash attack will be able to punish Marth at lower percentages

Idk about the full hops. I think going up high is amazing. When I first thought about it, I was like, "No way is this that good," but it works pretty well for me against a lot of people. Last time I played with Forward, I beat him in almost every Fox vs Marth (my Fox, his Marth) game we played, although he was better at punishing me for it. I might be overrating how good it is because I might just be able to get away with it more often than I should, but I definitely think that it's at least a really good mixup. As I said, people need to play less linearly, and even one more set of mixups can make a giant difference in that regard.

 

[unknown522]

alright, I'll work on it

 

[Lovage]

my new motto about fox: consistency is ****ing imaginary. ur either good at playing fox or ur not.

mango 6-0'ed me in finals with a fox he hasn't used in months. he played amazing the whole set cuz he's actually good at fox and consistency isn't a problem for him. (and i literally forgot what it's like playing him cuz i havn't since apex lol)

2012 motto: consistency is for pu$$ies, just get good at the character and play well all the time (when it matters ofc)


NOTE: about full-hopping.

full-hopping is really good because you stay in the air so long you can react to what they do/their positioning and choose the best option. sometimes the best option is fading back because it's unsafe, sometimes the best option is just falling down with your nair (you cornered them or they made a mistake.) bad fox players often ALWAYS come down with a nair once they've decided to fullhop, this is an awful habit and you should all be exploring more air options.

 

[Bing]

I remember this quote from s2j "no one ever plays there best, so just make your b game so **** that you won't have to play your best to win"

 

[KirbyKaze]

thanks for the jiggs help kk

No problem. I hope it helps =D

 

[unknown522]

why fullhop nair? I can see it if the opponent is in the air too, but as an air-to-ground move.....that's a CC

 

[Lovage]

not at high percent, not when they're right on the ledge, not when they jump at you (u bair instead of nair here after the fullhop), not when they run up shield at the wrong place ETC

i agree with u light nair SUCKS ordinarily but we play smash in venues not vacuums

 

[unknown522]

yeah, indeed.

I should try working on some full-hop (as a mixup) vs marth. He's one of 3 characters that I barely ever do so vs. I mean, I use the top platform and all, but just full-hopping to space around his moves I find tough. Player dependent though. Like I could get away with it vs players like m2k, strawhat, tai, HBk, Dart, etc. But I find that it's usually cuz I jump over a grab, dash attack, or an f-smash, that I guess is coming. But when I play vs I.B. and Weon-x, they barely let me get away with it (I guess they just know my habits). They just spam more moves (u-air/f-air), then cover themselves with something if they think that I'm gonna go in, or just dash away. So then I get forced to stalemate and back off a bit so that I don't get hit. Plus getting hit in the air means that I can't CC. So if something hits, then that's a stock (unless they mess up, make a bad decision, get greedy, or a DI trick happens to work at the right place/right time. Or more commonly, they just miss the edgeguard).

edit 2: Also hiding under platforms is so gay. I hate when people do that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mango's commentary during Lovage vs Westballz was so good

 

[Coffeeblack]

Mango's commentary during Lovage vs Westballz was so good

agreed lol he was hilarious the whole stream

 

[Spyro]

Mango's commentary during Lovage vs Westballz was so good

Could you link me to the commentary please ?

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.twitch.tv/kocast/b/317985396

 

[FoxLisk]

we play smash in venues not vacuums

thats like a zen koan for melee

 

[JPOBS]

mango's commentary in general is just awesome, even earlier in the stream when he's commenting on like random matchs.

I also find lovage's commentary to be really enjoyable.

 

[Lovage]

edit 2: Also hiding under platforms is so gay. I hate when people do that.

i remember when a falco player first did this to me on dreamland in like 2008 and i was SO MAD

nowadays i honestly don't think it that's good, and if you use all your movement options the right way you i actually think you can approach with advantage because of their pu$$y strats

 

[omgwtfToph]

Random upsets are gay

I still feel bad for sending HBox to Wobbles at APEX

and to SW D:

btw lovage sick commentary <3

 

[Sinji]

When the vids come out for that tournament with Mango, who will be the uploader?

 

[Warhawk]

http://www.twitch.tv/kocast/b/317985396

Do you know what the general time stamp is?

 

[Strong Badam]

@Lovage: really enjoyed your commentary at the Santa Barbara tourney. the quality of it considerably decreased when you had to play.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, Lovage, you really know your stuff. While keeping it hyped. I liked it lots, too.

 

[Lovage]

ty my **** is now drenched, plz talk about fox now

 

[Tee ay eye]

my new motto about fox: consistency is ****ing imaginary. ur either good at playing fox or ur not.

mango 6-0'ed me in finals with a fox he hasn't used in months. he played amazing the whole set cuz he's actually good at fox and consistency isn't a problem for him. (and i literally forgot what it's like playing him cuz i havn't since apex lol)

2012 motto: consistency is for pu$$ies, just get good at the character and play well all the time (when it matters ofc)


NOTE: about full-hopping.

full-hopping is really good because you stay in the air so long you can react to what they do/their positioning and choose the best option. sometimes the best option is fading back because it's unsafe, sometimes the best option is just falling down with your nair (you cornered them or they made a mistake.) bad fox players often ALWAYS come down with a nair once they've decided to fullhop, this is an awful habit and you should all be exploring more air options.

i endorse this whole post

personally, i think a big cause of inconsistency is just not being thorough with your skill... so people will seem REALLY GOOD when they fight against something they know how to fight, but when they're put in unfamiliar territory, they start "playing bad."

i also know what it's like to lose touch with a character because of not playing them enough. happens with me and marth cuz i just get lazy, cop out, and bust out my fox/falco/falcon in friendlies in recent times.

 

[unknown522]

i remember when a falco player first did this to me on dreamland in like 2008 and i was SO MAD

nowadays i honestly don't think it that's good, and if you use all your movement options the right way you i actually think you can approach with advantage because of their pu$$y strats

that's fair.

But it's really annoying.

Anyways, more about fox.

In the beginning of june, I'm going to quebec for a 2 day tourney. I really want to beat Vwins and BAM with fox (not cuz I don't think my other characters can't do it. I had just been losing a lot to them with fox and then have to cop out to falco, sheik, marth. It's more of a pride thing). Still, I dunno if they have been practicing or not, so it would suck if I were to win just off that.

So approaching falco anyone? This is my several year-old question that has never been answered by anyone

 

[EWC]

i remember when a falco player first did this to me on dreamland in like 2008 and i was SO MAD

nowadays i honestly don't think it that's good, and if you use all your movement options the right way you i actually think you can approach with advantage because of their pu$$y strats

Can you be more specific about this?

 

[knightpraetor]

you just said approaching falco with a straight face? oh you meant the falco's approaching got ya..

nah i'm just teasing..approaching is fine once you've proved that you can stuff approaches and lasers..but typically foxes can't powershield or get enough off lasers to really punish them, so breaking into falco's space from neutral can be pretty hard if they like to retreat lasers..of course if they are bd and give up max space with each laser it's different, but pp always gave up just enough space a couple years ago when he first got famous, I was honestly most impressed with him not retreating half the stage to get out of range of opponents...lightly short hopping back with a laser >>>> full distance retreating laser

mainly because once they are boxed out you have more approach options..though falcos these days tend to take to the platform or skies in those situations...

 

[Wenbobular]

Just don't get hit by uptilt when you're falling down on / running at them

 

[JPOBS]

lol i love how everyone is afraid of uptilt now cuz they saw it in some vids

uptilt has been the truth since like 04. ask forward

 

[omgwtfToph]

Falco has pretty bad horizontal mobility so I think my gameplan in this matchup is to abuse that as much as possible. I try to stay grounded or full jump when it's safe to bait approaches (since if you full jump you can punish Falco for doing a bad laser or shffl). when I'm grounded, I'm trying to shield as little as possible (shield lasers and try to powershield, wavedash out asap) to maintain my "dashdance" game (i.e. not letting falco's lasers disrupt fox's superior horizontal mobility).

I try to approach Falco when I know I can stuff his SHL, shffl, or dash back, and playing the aforementioned neutral-situation game well (not saying I do it well all the time lol) leads to opportunities to approach.

 

[Lovage]

Can you be more specific about this?

one idea is you want to fake approaches so he will do stuff. try wavelanding back off the top platform on dreamland and then shining in mid-air right in front of him then depending on what he does you can double jump bair him (when he attacks u,) or double jump away and waveland away, or just double jump onto the side platform.

try just hopping onto the platform and then jumping back to the top platform, jump from the top platform, fastfall thru the side platform and bair him off-stage.

dunno, once you get really confident at your ability to do fast wavelands on platforms and not mess up, plus the ability to fastfall thru platforms with any aerial whenever you want, the game really opens up in terms of your approach options/angles

 

[TSM ZeRo]

(I have read the past 3 pages).

I used to play Melee in tournaments in the 05-07 era, but then I changed to Brawl. Now I want to come back, but everything has changed a lot, match up wise. So I want to request a litle bit of help to you Fox experts .

How do I beat Falco as Fox in the current metagame? (Basically, what's the general idea of the match up right now?). What should I ban and what should I counterpick? Any good tricks that I should master/know about?

Note: I am a pretty technical player, and I know the terms. I ask about Cp's/tricks because back in the day you would Cp/use other tricks that now are just not useful/good anymore.

Thanks in advance.

 

[unknown522]

^ weon-x told me about you.

says that you're really technical

I can't help with falco. I suck vs him

 

[TSM ZeRo]

^ weon-x told me about you.

says that you're really technical

I can't help with falco. I suck vs him

Oh really? Camilo (Wx) is a friend of mine.

And lol. But I would appreciate any advice, since you're MUCH better than me at Melee.

 

[unknown522]

yeah man. I'm going to his house later.


But yeah, some little notes:

Power Shielding is starting to get more popular. It'll probably go a long way if you can do it consistently. Especially on close lasers.

Also moving around on platforms is pretty good from what I hear.

B-air oos is really important to cut off falco's laser approach.

Shine oos if he attempts to pressure you and isn't outside of your shine range. Otherwise u-smash oos, or WD back. Sometimes you can get away with doing an aerial oos. Depends on their spacing though.

I honestly don't know how to approach him. I guess just try to tech chase him when you knock him down with a shine. Sometimes if you're close enough, you can catch them with a running shine if they try to laser you at an unsafe distance.

Stages to ban is pretty suggestive. I think it depends on preference. I myself would ban either yoshi's or FD (depends on the opponent). If you don't want to give falco space, then probably BF. DL64 is probably fox's best stage, even if you don't like the level. There's just so much space to maneuver around lasers and his moves. The extra space helps fox's combo game on that level too (it helps falco as well, but not as much as fox IMO).

For CPs. If you like FD and are confident in your ability to grab falco, then CP it against him. If not, then I suggest either BF, DL64, or FoD. Whichever one he doesn't ban.

 

[Lovage]

fd is a 100:100 matchup never go there unless you have gigantic nuts (wouldn't ban it either cuz i've never met a falco that CP's it cept zhu like 1 time)


yoshi's and battlefield are totally fine. battlefield has the small disadvantage of not having a wall to ride when you recover but it's not a big deal. yoshi's is a very manly stage where you're gonna have to do lots of tiny outplays and tricks to get the advantage because it's so small and the platforms are practically off-stage. HINT: don't get shined right below a platform on yoshi's cuz u might die lol

dreamland is personal preference, i like the space you have but the huge floor can make it slightly harder to tech chase in some spots.

fod is personal perference some fox's like it, some don't (i hate it so i ban it vs falco and 90% of my matches in general lol)

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yoshi's is definitely manly.

 

[weon - X]

to hell with yoshies

 

[DerfMidWest]

how can I practice powershielding?
I want to be able to do it more consistently
but we only have one or two real falcos around here
and they dun't laser very often
so it screws me over whenever i play falcos who laser a lot, because i don't know how to handle it, except trying to get close enough to make them uncomfortable and going on the middle platform sometimes.