Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Warhawk]

that is not a option select, that is doing an option and then doing another (on reaction)

option select is a single string of inputs which have different outcome depending on what your opponent does

So like if someone's playing Ganon (and not sure if this actually works just trying to picture what you're saying) and they grab and downthrow you and you wait then press A and then L so that if they try a mixup to let you hit the ground and do something from there they get naired but also the timing of the l-cancel let's you tech if they decide to opt for the standard jab out of downthrow, would that be an option select?

 

[Lovage]

Thanks guys for ignoring my post (like EVERY TIME) asking for adviceon the fox ADVICE/questions topic. Not gonna quote my own post another million times, sicne I don't wanna spam.

You may also ignore this post, as I am mad for some reason since I would never post such a sarcastic post usually. Maybe you guys just don't have time to watch/analyze some random noob fox matches too, which I can kinda understand.

lol, how about you try actually communicating with us what you are having trouble with instead of just dumping a twitch archive on us and saying "omg wut i do wrong"


VERY STRONG CORRELATION between the amount of effort/thought you put into your post asking for help and how much effort people are gonna put into giving you advice lol.

 

[leffen]

So like if someone's playing Ganon (and not sure if this actually works just trying to picture what you're saying) and they grab and downthrow you and you wait then press A and then L so that if they try a mixup to let you hit the ground and do something from there they get naired but also the timing of the l-cancel let's you tech if they decide to opt for the standard jab out of downthrow, would that be an option select?

Yes, that is one. You can also option select with hitlag/shieldstun.

 

[Winston]

Leffen nobody is going to steal your secret techniques if you just post about them. What you posted in your rant a page ago is pretty accurate - people aren't going to use them until they see it in action. Relax

This isn't even the Falcon boards haha

 

[leffen]

thanks for being naive and narrowminded

 

[ERayz]

lol, how about you try actually communicating with us what you are having trouble with instead of just dumping a twitch archive on us and saying "omg wut i do wrong"


VERY STRONG CORRELATION between the amount of effort/thought you put into your post asking for help and how much effort people are gonna put into giving you advice lol.

OH sorry mr. Lovage. >_>

Maybe is it cause I do not know what I did wrong, and needed some better players to help me with basics (maybe?). Also it's frustrating that every single post I do on these boards are being ignored. Someone could have told me: Hey what do you think you need help with, or anything if you thought I asked for advice the wrong way. But NO, it's like I never posted.

So, keep talking with other pros and lets noobs be noobs I guess.

Oh yeah my English sucks so that's why I sound like a ******.

 

[FoxLisk]

acting like an entitled little ***** isnt going to help anything, buddy

 

[Armada]

Leffen: I agree with many players beeing lazy BUT

1: I actually invented pretty much everything with Peach except for FC. All the combos/How to space in every MU/ Tons of edgeguards stuff/ Way more effective ways to kill different chars in different situations.

This is something I have been working on for a long time. I have learned A LOT of stuff since Genesis 1 and use TONS of "new" things since Genesis 1 (not that new anymore but still a lot of new stuff since then).

I can shield drop 90% of the time but Peach actually dosen't win much from doing it cause she lose her second jump if she dosen't wait 1,1-1,5 seconds AFTER the shield drop. My other chars are good but I don't use them against world class players in tournament.

I also do a lot of good things with my other chars when it comes to make their combo game better but those matches are not recorded most of the time.

I honestly think it is completely wrong to say I haven't implanted pretty much nothing.
What other new techskill stuff are you talking about other then shield drop btw?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Armada just said, yo leffen what u think about silent wolf?

 

[leffen]

I know that you have pioneered much more than the others, but I didn't wanna sound horribly biased

I also think that there is quite a bit you haven't explored yet, and that you the last 2~ or so years haven't shown off things ;o

also, shield dropping with peach is still EXTREMELY useful. She is easily one of the best shield droppers. If you wanna double jump after shield dropping you simply tap up after dropping through. After that, you can instantly doublejump. I just tested around for 5 minutes to find this, so don't talk about not being lazy ;o

You cannot float->dj for some reason (I'm sure I could figure out a way to do it) but when do you do that anyway?

You can shield drop uair (hits above, combos, you can float just under to do even more mixups)
you can shield drop nair (hits above platform, much faster than normal nair oos, insanely good)
because of peach's ridiculous air mobility, you can move left/right just after shield dropping much better than any other character, and you also have double jump canceling and float to add even more
The fact that you can escape while shielding with a turnip!

You use wavedash off the platform oos all the time, and that is much worse than shielddropping in every way, especially with peach. There are a lot of other things you don't do yet but I don't wanna spill the secrets here, I'll tell you in Holland

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, WTF at Peach not benefitting from shield drops? Shield drop uairs out of pressure would be a way better punish at lower %s than just nairing OoS where you mostly just reset to neutral. I don't blame Leffen for not sharing his secrets. It only takes one noob like me to go practice it, abuse it at a tournament, and then some good player decides to steal it when I thrash him with it.

I think the main reason Melee players don't utilize all of this technology isn't so much because of laziness, but because there's so much to learn in general. The top players are constantly innovating non-tech strategies and stuff, so obviously if you're busy with that, it reduces how much time you can devote to implementing new techs. It's a dumb excuse, but I think there are some techs that are questionable in whether they are "worth" learning, especially when you're just talking about short-term improvement to prepare for a tournament or something.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Fundamentals and spacing > new techs. Not that I think most people who play this game care about the fundamentals so much as they do new techs, but all the same, people are often worrying about shield dropping or multishining or whatever, when they can't even space bairs. Personally, I don't even think people should be trying to develop new techs until they know how to properly apply the old ones.

People also prefer to copy what they see top players doing. Notice, top players aren't shield dropping.

Also: "Peach's ridiculous air mobility."

Lol, what?

 

[Bones0]

Peach can float, bro. Even MK is jelly.

 

[ShroudedOne]

That doesn't translate to this awesome air mobility. It gives her better mobility, sure, but far from ridiculous. Furthermore, Leffen didn't mention floating in his explanation.

 

[leffen]

" and you also have double jump canceling and float to add even more"

Her air movement is only challenged by Puff, and puffs shield drop is horrible. How is her air mobility not better than everyone elses? Good fastfall and DJC WHILE BEING A FLOATY, great airspeed, best airdodge in game, float, she can change direction fast... the list goes on


the "strategy is more important than new tech" argument is awful. Why did you learn wavedashing then? Both are needed to improve your gameplay

 

[Lovage]

leffen PEACH KINGGG

get da *** out of here broke *** armada there's a new champ in town

 

[omgwtfToph]

Leffen just said.... silent wolf is filteeeee

 

[Bing]

lol, how about you try actually communicating with us what you are having trouble with instead of just dumping a twitch archive on us and saying "omg wut i do wrong"


VERY STRONG CORRELATION between the amount of effort/thought you put into your post asking for help and how much effort people are gonna put into giving you advice lol.

Hey I just met you
And this is crazy
But ive got a problem
So help me Maybe?

 

[Armada]

Leffen: I mean floating and then double jump. I maybe wasn't saying it correct but that was what I meant.
If you play at BF for example and float after a shield drop (From top plattform) you have to wait until you are at least in the same "level" as the other plattforms. if you find a way around it I would appreciate if you could tell me.

And Im not useing it cause I don't have find a way around it. I tried (long time ago now) but could not find anything.

But yeah shield drop from pressure stuff is good I guess (never have the chance to try) but that was not really what I meant. Was more talking about general shield drop like you use it most of the time (going from defensive to aggressive in a fast way).

Yeah I have more stuff to explore but since Genesis I have found a lot of smaller things when it comes to beeing effective/maximize combos/edgeguard and stuff. If you look back at those Genesis vids you will see so much random stuff cause I didn't know a lot of better stuff back then.

Yeah show me what you have in Holland =)

 

[Wenbobular]

Defensive shield dropping gets you out of all the crappy pressure options like shine waveland shine, high Falco Dairs that are spaced around shieldgrabs, FJ platform tomahawks

When you can react to them being in the air by just dipping under the platfrom from your shield you kill all sorts of ways for them to pressure you

Especially true for characters like Falcon that don't have ways to deal with shield pressure on the back of their shield when on flat ground

 

[Bones0]

Yeah show me what you have in Holland =)

Plea for advice, or subtle callout? Armada-smileys are just too mindgamez...

 

[omgwtfToph]

OHhhHHhH SHHhhh*************

Armada just said,
SHOW ME YOUR MOVES

 

[Silent Wolf]

LMAOO. as much as i liked your posts, toph, i had to edit them xD

 

[omgwtfToph]

We beefin, Otto.

Nah sike you got me.

 

[Mahie]

3. Press to either side during hitlag to prevent yourself from rolling, slide down when you wanna shield drop
- Good because it requires no setup, and its interesting because it "option selects" roll (if they don't actually do a attack that you can buffer forward during, you roll). You can bait it though

4. Hold shield, and then move the stick "slowly" to the left/right so that you don't roll, but fully tilt (your stick should be fully to the side when you're done). Then just slide it down like usual.

- Best version except for the first one, and its reasonably easy to use. You don't risk rolling, and you can "spam it" and if you start going to the side during hitlag theres no penalty.

I was already on method 4, but I love your for Method 3. Apart from those you can just Shai drop and it's way easier to be consistent at.

Armada : After you told me and Charlon at ESA, he tried to look up ways to solve the ShieldDrop problem Peach has, but he didn't come up with anything... I'm not sure it's possible.

 

[ShroudedOne]

the "strategy is more important than new tech" argument is awful. Why did you learn wavedashing then? Both are needed to improve your gameplay

Of course both are needed, and wavedashing is actually sort of a necessary movement/positioning tool. But without the basics to understand WHY wavedashing is good, it just becomes another useless tech.

 

[Wenbobular]

When you say Shai drop you're talking about the running shield drop right?

They're used for different things though

Shai dropping makes it harder to catch you while you're moving while the standing shield drop gives you excellent OoS options when you're on a platform

 

[Mahie]

There's a guide for that, just look it up.

Shai drops are used for pure movement, as in when you're not already in your shield. OoS needs to be done with the aforementioned couple of techniques.

 

[Wenbobular]

I mean, that's what I was saying
I was just a little confused when you said "Apart from those you can just Shai drop and it's way easier to be consistent at," which doesn't make too much sense because they're used for different things

Unless I'm just reading it wrong xD

@ShroudedOne - you're just making his point better <_<
Wavedashing is a step up from dashdancing, we've just gotten to the point that it's very natural for most players to use for positioning

But the same is absolutely true for shield dropping as well, it's just a harder / less natural to do
The fact that the top players don't use doesn't really say anything other than it's (still) ahead of its time
I mean, Masashi never short hopped, but you wouldn't try to convince me that limiting your options was a good idea right?

Once you get good enough at it though ... opportunities everywhere

 

[Wake]

I use shield drop Nair and uair. Also, I like to FC onto a platform and sometimes immediately shield drop through the platform to catch people who think I might sit up there. Shield dropping with a turnip in your hand is pretty neat too. You can even drop and throw it haha. I've been experimenting with a lot of the stuff she might be able to do with it a lot. Some stuff might be just dumb, but hey, that's the process. I still think Peach has a ton of unexplored stuff.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yes, I see the light. Never mind, then. Leffen's correct.

 

[Armada]

I was already on method 4, but I love your for Method 3. Apart from those you can just Shai drop and it's way easier to be consistent at.

Armada : After you told me and Charlon at ESA, he tried to look up ways to solve the ShieldDrop problem Peach has, but he didn't come up with anything... I'm not sure it's possible.

I saw when he tried to solve the problem in the veneue at ESA5 but with no results =/
I also doubt it is a way around it but if anyone have find a way I would like to hear how they are doing it.

 

[Mahie]

I mean, that's what I was saying
I was just a little confused when you said "Apart from those you can just Shai drop and it's way easier to be consistent at," which doesn't make too much sense because they're used for different things

Unless I'm just reading it wrong xD

@ShroudedOne - you're just making his point better <_<
Wavedashing is a step up from dashdancing, we've just gotten to the point that it's very natural for most players to use for positioning

But the same is absolutely true for shield dropping as well, it's just a harder / less natural to do
The fact that the top players don't use doesn't really say anything other than it's (still) ahead of its time
I mean, Masashi never short hopped, but you wouldn't try to convince me that limiting your options was a good idea right?

Once you get good enough at it though ... opportunities everywhere

Shai dropping = Shield dropping, it's just a way to do it more easily.
When you're not in your shield already, you should go with one of the four techniques Shai describes, when you're already in it, Leffen's two OOS techniques will do.
So that's 6 ways in total to make your shield dropping more consistent.

 

[unknown522]

yo lovage or someone. Can one of you guys give some advice to Erayz? It's kind

edit: they're on youtube now

http://www.youtube.com/user/pikalex?feature=mhee

 

[Lovage]

**** u erays

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Why is there more peach relevant discussion in here then in the peach boards?

 

[omgwtfToph]

LOL, I'll watch the erayz videos later if it's any help.

 

[Shai Hulud]

There's a guide for that, just look it up.

Shai drops are used for pure movement, as in when you're not already in your shield. OoS needs to be done with the aforementioned couple of techniques.

This is mostly accurate, but Method 3 is OOS, you just need to be holding a direction that registers as "forward" (or "backward" though this is less useful) before inputting SW or SE to avoid the roll. So if you were walking, running, tilting "forward" while landing, etc., before shielding you can do it. You can also press "forward" while in shield-stun and then drop by inputting SW or SE (direction you're facing). You can also slowly tilt "forward" if you're already in shield, then input SW or SE to drop. More details in my thread.

 

[Shai Hulud]

How are they different? I think oos is more universally useable, while running is better with certain characters.

I'll spill the shield drop stuff because I'm so ashamed that people haven't learned it properly yet.


To shield drop during shield pressure:

1. Press straight down with the right pressure
- Hard but if you misstime it (say input it during hitlag) it "option selects" holding shield.

2. Dash and hold forward/back before shielding (you can start holding forward during any lag which prevents you from rolling) and then slide down whenever you want to shield drop
- Easiest, but requires setups and if hit the spot that causes you to drop during hitlag you cannot do this method again.

3. Press to either side during hitlag to prevent yourself from rolling, slide down when you wanna shield drop
- Good because it requires no setup, and its interesting because it "option selects" roll (if they don't actually do a attack that you can buffer forward during, you roll). You can bait it though

4. Hold shield, and then move the stick "slowly" to the left/right so that you don't roll, but fully tilt (your stick should be fully to the side when you're done). Then just slide it down like usual.

- Best version except for the first one, and its reasonably easy to use. You don't risk rolling, and you can "spam it" and if you start going to the side during hitlag theres no penalty.
5. There is one more but i'm getting bored


I use the hardcore *****in method (#1) but learn #4 because #1 largely relies on how good the control stick is on your particular controller.


Hmm. I should make a thread, because I've done a number of these posts but they are hard to find and disappear quickly with all the random noob spam

Method 1 has been known for at least six or seven years, and Methods 2 - 4 have been described previously by myself, first several years ago and again recently in much more detail. I guess nobody reads my threads.

 

[unknown522]

it's actually true