Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[leffen]

Method 1 has been known for at least six or seven years, and Methods 2 - 4 have been described previously by myself, first several years ago and again recently in much more detail. I guess nobody reads my threads.

I know, but you did a terrible job explaining how you can use these techniques. I didn't see any mention of OOS useage at all, and I haven't seen you mention how this affects certain characters etc.


All you did was post how to do it which I like, but what people really want is applications

 

[knightpraetor]

I honestly blame to top players for a lot of new players/average players laziness.

PP, Armada and HBox all play in a very set way, and doesn't use any of the newly developed and never implements something themselves (well I guess armada did some work before genesis 1 but not much if anything since then)

Mango also cannot do lots of the new stuff, and is a johning whiny ***** that encourages people to john and never "try" (unintended or not).

M2K is still stuck in 2009, and constantly complains about EVERYTHING. He also largely relies on self made gimmicks that **** players who don't know them but gets opened up by the top players, which is one of the reasons Marth players still cannot combo for **** (m2k's true comboing even on FD is actually bad) and most players learn flashy, gimmicky stuff instead of things that work all the time.

No top player uses Shield drops, option selects, powershield (barring a bit of armada), proper doubleshines etc...

Compare this to any other FGC/Esport where its the top players that constantly develop new technology, show it, make it the standard, not the mid level players who find something and then 4 years later people START looking into all the extremely useful stuff there is.

Smash players also suffer from low confidence etc, compared to the other games where people are both more mature and have more confidence. I'm tired of seeing people say "I wanna be as good as M2K at gimping/comboing" "I wanna be as aggressive as Mango" "I wanna be as consistent as armada" **** DAT ****

If you're gonna make it to their level, you gotta aim higher. People should be thinking "I wanna be the most consistent there is, but I wanna use all the high risk/high reward that Armada just doesn't wanna use" or "I wanna an aggressive playstyle just like Mango, but I'll be more consistent and have a better defense"

Of course, you can still watch them for inspiration and advice, but the problem is that most people aim to copy, not surpass


I'm obviously working hard to change this. I won't really be releasing tech until I've become (one of) the best though (everyone having twice my exp is a huge disadvantage, so I gotta do what I can)

EDIT: An important thing to add is that 95% of the playerbase of ANY GAME (and life)will not learn new tech unless they are handfed. Its not really until they are repetitively shown that one thing is good that they start to look into it and explore it (in esports this commonly happens when top players who everyone watches implements something new).

oftentimes marth's gimmicky combos are 50/50s that result in death as opposed to 100% that just get percent. I used all guaranteed combos 6 months ago, but I disagree that learning guaranteed combos is the correct direction to go with marth. Marth's non-guaranteed combos are really strong...but maybe part of it is that marth's just haven't memorized all the guaranteed combos..however, keeping a list of a million percents and reactions to very DIs wastes a lot of brainpower that could be used on other aspects of the match.

on that note, spacing, timing, and option spacing are more important than these flashy tricks. That is not to say that I don't wish like you to see more development by the top players of these flashy new toys. I agree that if fully developed that they would be extremely strong. The problem is this game is not starcraft. no one is going to make 100k for winning a national. no one is going to train 80 hrs a week for 10 weeks. Because of this, if one top pro wastes his time learning these special techniques instead of focusing on basics he will probably lose the next national to someone who practiced fundamentals since none of them devote that much time to the game.

 

[unknown522]

^ what?

 

[Mahie]

oftentimes marth's gimmicky combos are 50/50s that result in death as opposed to 100% that just get percent. I used all guaranteed combos 6 months ago, but I disagree that learning guaranteed combos is the correct direction to go with marth. Marth's non-guaranteed combos are really strong...but maybe part of it is that marth's just haven't memorized all the guaranteed combos..however, keeping a list of a million percents and reactions to very DIs wastes a lot of brainpower that could be used on other aspects of the match.

on that note, spacing, timing, and option spacing are more important than these flashy tricks. That is not to say that I don't wish like you to see more development by the top players of these flashy new toys. I agree that if fully developed that they would be extremely strong. The problem is this game is not starcraft. no one is going to make 100k for winning a national. no one is going to train 80 hrs a week for 10 weeks. Because of this, if one top pro wastes his time learning these special techniques instead of focusing on basics he will probably lose the next national to someone who practiced fundamentals since none of them devote that much time to the game.

It's not supposed to be using your brain. Your fingers need to just know it in tournaments, casuals are there for practice, until you reach that level where you don't think about it anymore.

Also, in my opinion, the techskill of today will be the fundamentals of tomorrow. Just look at the evolution of Melee and the floor skill required throughout the years.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm not gonna work on my tech skill until walking around and upsmashing is no longer super effective.

 

[Divinokage]

Just stand there and do stuff, it works.. =)

 

[PK Webb]

lasers/nair shine/waveshine usmash/u-throw u air/ up tilt /bair is all u need to no.....oh and double shine at the ledge....since im gimmicky i like d tilt at certain percents

 

[ERayz]

yo lovage or someone. Can one of you guys give some advice to Erayz? It's kind

edit: they're on youtube now

http://www.youtube.com/user/pikalex?feature=mhee

Thanks for this, Unknown. But it seems most others prefered ignoring my request for advice for whatever reason. I've been told it's cause I didn't do enough effort when asking for advice or whatever. I guess my limitations in English will also limit my progress in Melee since I don't know how to "properly" ask for advice.

**** u erays

I expected that. BTW erayz ends with a Z

 

[Lovage]

suck my **** ******



edit: you are ****ing gay

 

[PK Webb]

ez- im watching u vs kage. your recovery can use sum woork like wavelanding onto the stage and ur follow ups after shine need sum work. Versus a ganon i feel like u could have applied more pressure. also (im tryna get this out of my game as well) i saw sometimes you would waveshine nair. just grab or usmash and follow up. im still watchin the vid so ill edit more as i see things. are there ay vids of u vs a hi tier character?

 

[humBAM]

LOLage ............

 

[ERayz]

ez- im watching u vs kage. your recovery can use sum woork like wavelanding onto the stage and ur follow ups after shine need sum work. Versus a ganon i feel like u could have applied more pressure. also (im tryna get this out of my game as well) i saw sometimes you would waveshine nair. just grab or usmash and follow up. im still watchin the vid so ill edit more as i see things. are there ay vids of u vs a hi tier character?

Thanks man. I was already working on this, since this match is kinda old now. But my recovery still sucks against Ganon (and most chars actually) lol, any idea what I should do?

Actually, the match I linked was me vs Unknown (Fox ditto), but I got wrecked so badly, that I think I need to re-learn the Fox ditto match-up from start.

I mean, my playstyle works very well against other low level spacies players, but whenever I meet a high level spacies player, it feels like I can't do anything.

 

[Bing]

Its because low level spacie mains either run into stupid moves or sit in shield(This guy right here, I love my shield)

For Ganon I read above that you should waveland onto stage so maybe try something like a waveland, running, shield for a sec(Because Fox can slide in shield for a bit) then continue with your day. I dont know, I cant watch the video, I'll try to later on my phone, but because its Ganon Im assuming there trying to fair you when you're wavelanding onto the stage.

 

[PK Webb]

Thanks man. I was already working on this, since this match is kinda old now. But my recovery still sucks against Ganon (and most chars actually) lol, any idea what I should do?

Actually, the match I linked was me vs Unknown (Fox ditto), but I got wrecked so badly, that I think I need to re-learn the Fox ditto match-up from start.

I mean, my playstyle works very well against other low level spacies players, but whenever I meet a high level spacies player, it feels like I can't do anything.

could i get that link the 1 unknown put up just took me to a channel. as for a suggestion if u learn the perfect waveland u could roll into the middle and stay invincible the whole time. waveland and shield then do a out of shield option such as shine oos. i personally like shine oos because if timed/spaced right it beats almost anything he can do to u just because of how fast it is. or nair oos or just waveland nair shine. if u got great big testicles u cud usmash or grab. its a ok mix up and i occasionally catch ppl with the usmash. the grab i do if they get to comfortable near the edge. like waveland grab a falco then u throw double shine or backthrow shine. then u have scared them and they wont be as carefree near the ledge anymore

 

[ERayz]

could i get that link the 1 unknown put up just took me to a channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPQSlekG8ZY&list=UULTNJKajnb77cLqq_Pqa2lg&index=9&feature=plcp

Here you go.

 

[PK Webb]

u were playing very solid at first but your going thru what i literally just went thru....too flashy. like i see u got techskill and lots of it and thats great but u dropped some keys things because of trying to do too much. like u had unknown dead at 1:40 but instead of going for u air or even a regular bair u tried to style and shine bair. it also seems u dont have much patience and u got ***** for it. like unknown would just wait for u to come to him and he would outspace your initial approach and capitalize. 5:50 u shud be doing this more. baiting ppl is the name of the game. 5:56 u got a nice d tilt but shined him? u could have done alot more with that. like usmash or nair. if u wanted to style even a weak bair to follow up but shine shouldnt have been the option chosen right there.
OVERALL: u got all the techskill u need clearly. ur fast and have great control over your character. just work on edgeguards and choosing better options. im not gonna say slow down because speed is a awesome tool to have but play more patient. also multishine are awesome to see but i would had liked to see more nair shine pressure or my personal favorite nair shine nair shinegrab. hope i helped a lil good luck

 

[FoxLisk]

suck my **** ******



edit: you are ****ing gay

this. seriously. did i miss some posts where this guy didn't act like a *******, or something? seems like a guy who should suck my **** to me.

also at the whole leffen/KP/etc discussion earlier.. you guys are dumb.

lets pretend there are two things to learn: tech skill & everything else. at any given level in your growth as a player, focusing on one of those things is more efficient than the other, and which is more efficient will change frequently. So you should practice tech skill until you'll improve more efficiently by improving your [everything else], and then work on something else until tech skill is more valuable again.
I think most of us agree that learning dash dancing, wavedashing, l cancelling, and short hopping are all required before you reach the point where improving your tech skill is less important than improving [everything else]. after youve got those down, you have to choose what else to do, and for 99% of players, practicing combo mixups or spacing or edgeguarding or recovery mixups or tech chasing or something else is going to yield greater rewards than practicing shai dropping. so leffen, if you're at the point where perfecting shai dropping is the most efficient way for you to improve, go master it and **** with it and shut the **** up about how the rest of us should learn it. otherwise, just shut the **** up in general, instead.

 

[Warhawk]

Lot of tension in the Fox boards lol.

 

[Divinokage]

You guys are doing exactly what I did in the past, stop ****ing posting nonsense.

 

[JPOBS]

trash talk is just wat this community needs honestly. im pretty tired of the friendship is magic trend we've been running with ever since genesis 1

 

[PK Webb]

trash talk is just wat this community needs honestly. im pretty tired of the friendship is magic trend we've been running with ever since genesis 1

ok then (clears throat)

jpobs u ***** ******* ****** i hope u ****** **** ***** drake looking ***** ****** *****backstreet boy singing ***** ***** **** ******* normal hair cut having ***** fried chicken eating watermelon sucking****** **** **** non american air breathing **** ***** **** making me hit shift + 8 alot to make up fake curse words posting******

edit: jpobs is the homie tho love that dude

 

[ShroudedOne]

Uhhh...ummm...I don't exactly know how to tell you this...

But there's an asterisk key right over the number pad. Over the number nine.

>_>

 

[unknown522]

Indeed

 

[PK Webb]

exposed..................................deletes account

 

[Shai Hulud]

I know, but you did a terrible job explaining how you can use these techniques. I didn't see any mention of OOS useage at all, and I haven't seen you mention how this affects certain characters etc.


All you did was post how to do it which I like, but what people really want is applications

To me the uses seemed obvious and so there was no point going into much detail, though perhaps I should have. What people didn't seem to know was how to do it, the technical part, so my explanations were quite thorough. Method 3 in my thread is OOS. Maybe you didn't understand the description, as the frame notation there was possibly confusing. In brief, Method 3 refers to shielding first, and rotating to SE or SW while already holding left or right to prevent a roll. And there are several ways to set this up, which I didn't elaborate upon in the recent thread but I have previously, quoted below.

You can drop through your shield by tilting 45 degrees below horizontal in any situation where pressing left/right will not cause you to roll. This includes, shielding from walking, dashing, running, shielding during any landing lag (if you are holding left/right during the landing lag), holding left/right during the lag of a spot dodge, roll, or waveland and shielding, and pressing left/right during any stun on your shield.

I also made this video.

In any case, the thread I made recently was intended as a follow-up thread. For a general introduction I linked to the older thread and video. Maybe I should add a section on applications? I would probably need assistance from better players for character-specific applications, which I welcome.

I'll spill the shield drop stuff because I'm so ashamed that people haven't learned it properly yet.

I certainly have no problem with you educating people on certain methods, and in fact I appreciate it (I am also ashamed nobody uses shield dropping / shai dropping), but one gets the impression from your post that you figured this out and are now deciding to share this secret technique, which is just not accurate, as I shared how to do this over four years ago.

 

[Shai Hulud]

this. seriously. did i miss some posts where this guy didn't act like a *******, or something? seems like a guy who should suck my **** to me.

also at the whole leffen/KP/etc discussion earlier.. you guys are dumb.

lets pretend there are two things to learn: tech skill & everything else. at any given level in your growth as a player, focusing on one of those things is more efficient than the other, and which is more efficient will change frequently. So you should practice tech skill until you'll improve more efficiently by improving your [everything else], and then work on something else until tech skill is more valuable again.
I think most of us agree that learning dash dancing, wavedashing, l cancelling, and short hopping are all required before you reach the point where improving your tech skill is less important than improving [everything else]. after youve got those down, you have to choose what else to do, and for 99% of players, practicing combo mixups or spacing or edgeguarding or recovery mixups or tech chasing or something else is going to yield greater rewards than practicing shai dropping. so leffen, if you're at the point where perfecting shai dropping is the most efficient way for you to improve, go master it and **** with it and shut the **** up about how the rest of us should learn it. otherwise, just shut the **** up in general, instead.

You might have a point if Shai dropping were difficult, but it isn't, so I don't really get why so many people don't know how to do it. I mean, moonwalking is significantly more difficult IMO and everyone learned how to do that, even though it's not that useful. In particular Method 1 is easy to do consistently, and only requires you to press down within a 2 frame window after shielding. The OOS method (3) is not difficult but doesn't seem to work on all controllers. I went into great detail in my thread on how to do it, with several methods, so I guess the only reasons people don't want to learn the technique is either ignorance, laziness, or lack of imagination.

 

[Wenbobular]

Man ... what a great thread ...
+rep for Shai

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Is it just me or does Shai Hulud just posting so people give him credit for "inventing" shield dropping?

 

[Wenbobular]

It led me to his thread (even though I've been using it for a while now) so I'm not complaining

 

[shadrach kabango]

the "strategy is more important than new tech" argument is awful. Why did you learn wavedashing then? Both are needed to improve your gameplay

why do you post "rebuttals" like this and then when someone does the same thing to you you call them naive and narrow-minded? you're great at self-immolation.

EDIT: An important thing to add is that 95% of the playerbase of ANY GAME (and life)will not learn new tech unless they are handfed. Its not really until they are repetitively shown that one thing is good that they start to look into it and explore it (in esports this commonly happens when top players who everyone watches implements something new).

read the tipping point by malcolm gladwell. kinda amusing how you talk about players being lazy as hell when ur posts are lazy as hell.

We beefin, Otto.

Nah sike you got me.

dah foo u should know it's spelled psych

also at the whole leffen/KP/etc discussion earlier.. you guys are dumb.

lets pretend there are two things to learn: tech skill & everything else. at any given level in your growth as a player, focusing on one of those things is more efficient than the other, and which is more efficient will change frequently. So you should practice tech skill until you'll improve more efficiently by improving your [everything else], and then work on something else until tech skill is more valuable again.
I think most of us agree that learning dash dancing, wavedashing, l cancelling, and short hopping are all required before you reach the point where improving your tech skill is less important than improving [everything else]. after youve got those down, you have to choose what else to do, and for 99% of players, practicing combo mixups or spacing or edgeguarding or recovery mixups or tech chasing or something else is going to yield greater rewards than practicing shai dropping. so leffen, if you're at the point where perfecting shai dropping is the most efficient way for you to improve, go master it and **** with it and shut the **** up about how the rest of us should learn it. otherwise, just shut the **** up in general, instead.

sikk poast

 

[Kyu Puff]

trash talk is just wat this community needs honestly. im pretty tired of the friendship is magic trend we've been running with ever since genesis 1

i don't know what this is directed at, but trash talking new players who ask for advice is pretty ****ing stupid. and besides, a little mlp never hurt anyone.

 

[Lovage]

^ i didn't get jpobs post either LOL

and i didn't "trash talk a new player" awww boo hoo , i trash talked an entitled douchenozzle



edit: and i agree with everyone ripping up broke *** leffen

 

[Divinokage]

So asking for advice = douche all of a sudden? That's a new one..

Doesn't everyone link vids for people to critique? Howtf is he supposed to know what he's doing wrong when he's low level. Analyzing your own vids at that point doesn't help much, he needs help from others.

 

[Sinji]

^ Actually an old one. Trust me....

these last three pages WOW. people need to chill.

 

[Lovage]

naw, **** you ******s, he got mad at us for "ignoring his posts" and then acted like i personally owed him something

i told him he can go ****ing blow me, and everyone coulda left it at that, but now all these french canadians are getting mad and i culd give a damn lol.

this was his original, UNPROVOKED post which he deleted

Thanks guys for ignoring my post (like EVERY TIME) asking for adviceon the fox ADVICE/questions topic. Not gonna quote my own post another million times, sicne I don't wanna spam.

You may also ignore this post, as I am mad for some reason since I would never post such a sarcastic post usually. Maybe you guys just don't have time to watch/analyze some random noob fox matches too, which I can kinda understand.

gayest post i've ever seen in my life, i'm glad i responded how i did and would do it 1000 more times

 

[unknown522]

3/4ths of that post doesn't look bad

 

[Brookman]

**** *****es, get money.

 

[Divinokage]

naw, **** you ******s, he got mad at us for "ignoring his posts" and then acted like i personally owed him something

i told him he can go ****ing blow me, and everyone coulda left it at that, but now all these french canadians are getting mad and i culd give a damn lol.

this was his original, UNPROVOKED post which he deleted




gayest post i've ever seen in my life, i'm glad i responded how i did and would do it 1000 more times

Says the guy that gets backed up by WC all the time, very funny.

 

[Bones0]

I like trash talk as much as the next XBL tryhard, but it will never suit the Melee community. It already takes years for new players to catch up to mid level, and that would take much longer if it weren't for the friendship is magic attitude. It's also one of the best factors in Melee's growth. It's infinitely more difficult to go to a Melee tournament and not make a single friend than it is to go to a Halo tournament and not make a friend. I hosted less than 10 Halo events at a local LAN center, and the general attitude between players is awful. No one wants to play oustide of their teams. No one wants to talk strats, even after the tournament's over. I even had to deal with a fist-fighting incident that resulted from trash talking (and me and my teammmate were the ones being hassled, so I'm not just going off of rumors here). I've NEVER heard of anything like this in the Melee community, and I think it's quite a bonus of professionalism that this community holds over nearly any other competitive community.

I did hear about some barlw MK player at Pound 5 who raged when he got grabbed by an IC, paused, and threw a punch, but I can't really blame him. I'd want to hit someone too if I were playing barlw.

 

[JPOBS]

i don't know what this is directed at, but trash talking new players who ask for advice is pretty ****ing stupid. and besides, a little mlp never hurt anyone.

It was directed at foxlisk and other cats going off on leffen, and smashboards beef in general

i wasnt specifically talking about ripping on erayz or whatever, that was just unfortunate and honestly the dude kinda acted like an entitled prick after people missed his post ONCE while we were in the middle of discussing somethign else. that rubs ppl the wrong way.

Trash talk vs the upper level players like WC vs kage is healthy for the community

im dieing at lovage going in right now lmaaaoo