Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Silent Wolf]

We really need a new guide, or info dump. The same questions keep being asked like 1-2 times per week

word .

 

[omgwtfToph]

I'd like to ask a very specific question that hasn't really been touched on before, I don't think.

(Primarily aimed at unknown522/kirbykaze/otto, but everyone else please chime in)
I want to get better at punishing Sheik. I know a lot of the punish game vs Sheik has to do with not just true combos, but also situations where she doesn't have **** she can do when she's falling from above cuz she has ****ty aerial mobility. Stuff like using usmash to trade with her falling nair then getting a fatter combo, or fsmashing by the ledge when she tries to weave offstage (or to trade with her DJ fair back - see SFAT vs M2K from APEX 2013 for an example)

But this also applies to, like, situations where you uair her and you can't really continue the combo but you have a huge advantage as she's falling down. Do you guys have any tips on covering all of Sheik's options and pushing this advantage as far as possible?



Edit: For what it's worth I also want to refresh my memory on the punish tree vs Sheik off uthrow, even though that's not the main point of this post. Unknown, does this sound about right?

Uthrow at 0%, no DI: Utilt, or SH uair (or usmash to trade with falling nair if you read dat)
Uthrow at 0%, side DI: running SH nair -> utilt -> stuff. (Can you do running SH uair here? Is it good?)
Uthrow at low-mid %, no DI: SH uair? FJ uair?
Uthrow at low-mid %, side DI: running FJ bair (weak hit) into combo, or running FJ uair
Uthrow at high %: uair except in rare situations where bair might be better

 

[_wzrd]

Yoooo ^I like his question so by all means answer that first.

but Id like some advice on a video...I got another MM against this samus soon & even though I won, I feel like I should've been able to do it more convincingly.


id rather do this over some kinda IM/facebook so we can shoot ideas real time, any good foxes down?
if not, some general:what I did right or wrong would be great & of course suggestions for getting better stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulyKZskjptk

here's the vid btw. it's a bo7, I'm the fox. i'm kinda drunk/nervous but I play pretty good in the last three matches, first two I get thrashed.

things I've been working on since then: just general fluidy/spacing/practical tech skill(ala doing what I want to do at all times). USMASH OOS. SHINEGRAB. I don't get to play real people except when I fly to play these guys, but I still want some help.

THANKS foxes<3

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

What is the best way to punish Sheik's ftilt? How should I approach when Sheik is ftilting & wavedashing back while ftilting?

E: Hi Wzrd, I can't really comment on the Samus matchup but some general pointers

Practice dashing after shffling an aerial, e.g. shffl nair and dash immediately when you land. There were instances were you acted quite slow after throwing out an aerial, although I could be due to alcohol lol

Another thing, practice applying wavedash down to your spacing as to stop, I didn't see you use much of that and sometimes I got punished for not stopping from the dash. Trust me, using wavedash down will improve your spacing.

Last thing, delay your aerials, especially nair. Practice shffling with throwing out the nair late

 

[Bing]

If I'm not mistaken you don't actually need to wavedash down, I think you just put the control stick down(Like you're crouching) out of dash.

 

[rokimomi]

I may not have your answers right now toph (never play shieks too often), but punish tree is the most genius name and genius way of listing options for a brand new matchup thread

waaaaay better than a wall of text

make the thread

 

[unknown522]

I'd like to ask a very specific question that hasn't really been touched on before, I don't think.

(Primarily aimed at unknown522/kirbykaze/otto, but everyone else please chime in)
I want to get better at punishing Sheik. I know a lot of the punish game vs Sheik has to do with not just true combos, but also situations where she doesn't have **** she can do when she's falling from above cuz she has ****ty aerial mobility. Stuff like using usmash to trade with her falling nair then getting a fatter combo, or fsmashing by the ledge when she tries to weave offstage (or to trade with her DJ fair back - see SFAT vs M2K from APEX 2013 for an example)

But this also applies to, like, situations where you uair her and you can't really continue the combo but you have a huge advantage as she's falling down. Do you guys have any tips on covering all of Sheik's options and pushing this advantage as far as possible?



Edit: For what it's worth I also want to refresh my memory on the punish tree vs Sheik off uthrow, even though that's not the main point of this post. Unknown, does this sound about right?

Uthrow at 0%, no DI: Utilt, or SH uair (or usmash to trade with falling nair if you read dat)
Uthrow at 0%, side DI: running SH nair -> utilt -> stuff. (Can you do running SH uair here? Is it good?)
Uthrow at low-mid %, no DI: SH uair? FJ uair?
Uthrow at low-mid %, side DI: running FJ bair (weak hit) into combo, or running FJ uair
Uthrow at high %: uair except in rare situations where bair might be better

looks like I have been summoned. But I gotta take care of some stuff, then work lol

Edit:

There's no trick to covering sheik coming down. Just shark from underneath and try to hit her with what you can. Don't get hit. If they try to go offstage out of your range, then either take the ledge or hit with something that will reach them.

More than likely b-air will be the go-to move. Sometimes f-tilt is better than f-smash when they try to go off the ledge because more range and faster.

The main annoying thing vs sheik is if they randomly f-air through your aerial. It sometimes happened but not that often.

For throw combos, just be careful about doing SH u-air, cuz at most percents where sheik is low enough to be reached, she can n-air you first. There is a pretty small window of percents where it actually links. (and even in those percents it barely hits so the second hit of the u-air may [and probably will] miss). In turn, you may steal their jump (like all the times I played tope he would always try to jump out and I would clip him with the u-air).

Some rough percents, cuz I forget the exact numbers:

From 0-30% on no DI, it's probably best to u-tilt. You can probably get a second u-tilt or u-air

20-150% on no DI, you can FH u-air. At the very low percents, I do it on platform stages to land on them and possibly get a u-tilt/grab.

150%+, I don't think it combos anymore, but that doesn't matter.

0-40% on DI away, n-air. From 0-20% (I think it was), you can link u-tilt. Or if they just survival DI. At mid percents, you can get a d-tilt after the n-air sometimes.

40%+, u-air or whatever else if you want to take a chance with their DI.

0-50% on DI behind, n-air/b-air. It's pretty hard to hit the n-air.

50%+, u-air or just try and hit them off the stage.

Weak b-air (whether reverse or not) out of u-throw vs sheik sucks tbh. At the percents where you can link it, you technically can't get a follow either because he body is too high, or her percent is too low to stun enough. Even with a platform most of the time. There such a small window of percents where it can work. And requires survival DI off the b-air ofc.


Most of the throw combos are like FD and DL specific mostly because they will probably land on a platform at lower percents and then you will just tech chase them anyway. You can just walk underneath and follow the tech. Then you get a minimum of 2 u-airs almost guaranteed.


Edit 2: there are random positions where you may be able to throw -> FH rising n-air and go up on a platform with them and maybe get a grab/u-tilt/etc.

 

[omgwtfToph]

ayo peep tha jam i sent you tho http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niU0ipPurM4

 

[unknown522]

I did last night. Pretty good

Aww man, there's so many small details in spacing around sheik and punishing and such. Like when/how/why to go around them and various other things

 

[omgwtfToph]

Write all dat

 

[unknown522]

Maybe one day

 

[Strong Badam]

title: unknown522

 

[Bing]

Orr.. Title: #UnknownFreed

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yo thanks a lot. Clarification on some things:

0-40% on DI away, n-air. From 0-20% (I think it was), you can link u-tilt. Or if they just survival DI. At mid percents, you can get a d-tilt after the n-air sometimes.

You mean SH nair right? Even up to 30-40%, nair will work?

0-50% on DI behind, n-air/b-air. It's pretty hard to hit the n-air.

Did you mean FJ nair/FJ bair?

And NOT the weak bair? So you want to do a strong hit bair, without an intent to combo afterward? (Isn't weak bair -> utilt fine? Sure it might not combo, but it could at best trade with her falling nair, and at worst she jumps out and you get to shark her as she comes down...?)

 

[_wzrd]

What is the best way to punish Sheik's ftilt? How should I approach when Sheik is ftilting & wavedashing back while ftilting?

E: Hi Wzrd, I can't really comment on the Samus matchup but some general pointers

Practice dashing after shffling an aerial, e.g. shffl nair and dash immediately when you land. There were instances were you acted quite slow after throwing out an aerial, although I could be due to alcohol lol

Another thing, practice applying wavedash down to your spacing as to stop, I didn't see you use much of that and sometimes I got punished for not stopping from the dash. Trust me, using wavedash down will improve your spacing.

Last thing, delay your aerials, especially nair. Practice shffling with throwing out the nair late

I definitely have been practicing all those things and some other stuff since then, general uncomfortability in the matchup slowed down my reactions too...ps I start to move smoother later in the set, but still make dumb choices (which i need more advice on). thanks though novi

@anyone else, is there anything safe on CC besides drill? late nair still seems sketchy,unless maybe I shield->punish oos etc, does thatwork? i noticed I was able to get away with nairshine sometimes/nair jab(but get punished cuz jab is stupid if shes still CCing)-latenair->fast nair....errr

still looking for tips, preferably from people with lots of samus exp.

 

[omgwtfToph]

CC, I late nair dat.

Samus's dsmash sucks (aka isn't as fast as Peach's - although super deep nairs can work against even Peach) and deep nair/bair are actually pretty good for baiting out bad dsmashes from most Samuses.

Don't nair jab lol (ever)

Btw you missed a lot of utilt punishes. If you can get good at hit confirming nairs (i.e. confirm if opponent is grounded or in air) then keep in mind that utilt (turnaround sometimes required) gives you fat damage after nair provided opponent doesn't CC.

I actually don't really like drilling Samus in a lot of situations cuz she can slip out with even minimal DI. Well, if you're vigilant about this sort of thing you could shield the incoming dsmash I guess. Same concept as doing a late nair.

 

[linkoninja]

On what characters does Shine-Up-Smash work?
I can perform the move but I can never hit with the up-smash

 

[robyextreme]

works on everyone

although you might have to run and shine first

but better time spent is reading the posts that unknown and others makes about things that are actually useful

instead of doing something useless

 

[unknown522]

One day

 

[JC Shine Studios]

Doesn't shine usmash guarantee a good hitframe? Also can they sdi the shine to get out of the usmash in time?

 

[_wzrd]

CC, I late nair dat.

Samus's dsmash sucks (aka isn't as fast as Peach's - although super deep nairs can work against even Peach) and deep nair/bair are actually pretty good for baiting out bad dsmashes from most Samuses.

Don't nair jab lol (ever)

Btw you missed a lot of utilt punishes. If you can get good at hit confirming nairs (i.e. confirm if opponent is grounded or in air) then keep in mind that utilt (turnaround sometimes required) gives you fat damage after nair provided opponent doesn't CC.

I actually don't really like drilling Samus in a lot of situations cuz she can slip out with even minimal DI. Well, if you're vigilant about this sort of thing you could shield the incoming dsmash I guess. Same concept as doing a late nair.

yeaaah I noticed it's easier to get around (dsmash), but due to the knockback angle it feels ****tier. yeah I cringed at some of those nair jabs LOL, believe me. thanks for the clear *that sucks* message.

have been working on nair utilt*with turnaround too against cpus, but was unsure if they worked, so Ill def incorporate those next set...though if he cc's will the utilt knock him down?. idk how got mike is at the sdi vs dair, so I guess when I throw it out I'll just have to play it by ear.

thanks toph.

*ps, if I win the next match I get dinner at a super fancy place like roys, so I gotta win LOL
*pps, idk I also would like some feedback on anything else bad I specifically do, I feel like theres gotta be some more stuff thats jank. Ill watch it some more later too though see if I can see anything e;se

 

[RaynEX]

Doesn't shine usmash guarantee a good hitframe? Also can they sdi the shine to get out of the usmash in time?

Shine usmash gives you no benefit in terms of frames. Adding that suffix just makes no sense.

Yeah your opponent can sdi it, but if you're just running up at random and doing it there's no way for them to know when (some Foxes do this alot)

 

[omgwtfToph]

yeaaah I noticed it's easier to get around (dsmash), but due to the knockback angle it feels ****tier. yeah I cringed at some of those nair jabs LOL, believe me. thanks for the clear *that sucks* message.

have been working on nair utilt*with turnaround too against cpus, but was unsure if they worked, so Ill def incorporate those next set...though if he cc's will the utilt knock him down?. idk how got mike is at the sdi vs dair, so I guess when I throw it out I'll just have to play it by ear.

lolz no worries I used to have a really bad habit of nair jabbing too much too.

I think utilt is generally best reserved for situations where you know they're not gonna be on the ground. I think at like HIGHER %'s it can knock down though. (but I'm talking like... 70s+)

 

[mastermoo420]

quick question: how relevant is the part of CunningKitsune's guide on match-ups/anybody have any other links readily available to good posts on match-ups?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I havent read it in a long time, but cunning is a very good fox player so I would say its pretty reliable (at least as a good starting point)

 

[Bing]

Yeah Niko_K does a lot of running Shine Upsmashes, but they do come at random so its extremely difficult to sdi out. It also happens so fast that you just eat the upsmash for the stock.

 

[PGH Carroll]

maybe cunning should come back and tell us how to do this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GfP1rRY-co&t=2m33s

 

[_wzrd]

lolz no worries I used to have a really bad habit of nair jabbing too much too.

I think utilt is generally best reserved for situations where you know they're not gonna be on the ground. I think at like HIGHER %'s it can knock down though. (but I'm talking like... 70s+)

right on, hence it being a dope followup from nair.

thanks dude.

@mastermoo, I just checked out the matchup guide-specifically the samus part since I need to brush up on it---it's still suprisingly relevant, the matchups are all well written with a lot of great info on what works & what doesn't (& why). of course a few of out more modern techniques are left out, but you can fill in the blanks in some places.

definitely gonna study there sometime, thanks for reminding me about it.

 

[JC Shine Studios]

Shine usmash gives you no benefit in terms of frames. Adding that suffix just makes no sense.

Yeah your opponent can sdi it, but if you're just running up at random and doing it there's no way for them to know when (some Foxes do this alot)

Yeah I like running shine as a mix up sometimes.

Also what would the benefit of shine usmash be then? Aside from just a free 4-5% extra before it hits.

EDIT: On that note, what is the benefit of shine bair'ing? I can see why you would want to turnaround shine bair, but just a normal ones reasons seem less obvious lol

 

[omgwtfToph]

I tried to spark some decent discussion about the fox vs sheik matchup and people opted to talk about shine usmash, shine bair, and "hitframes" instead.

Save us, Kirbykaze. You're our only hope.

 

[JC Shine Studios]

I tried to spark some decent discussion about the fox vs sheik matchup and people opted to talk about shine usmash, shine bair, and "hitframes" instead.

Save us, Kirbykaze. You're our only hope.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

*sigh* toph is right. i'm lurking here cuz i'm having PP teach me fox cuz ganon is a terrible character. i'm learning a lot of interesting things. i'll try to share some useful ones eventually, although sparingly.

my first question to you guys, is how often do you guys try to jc a shine from your initial dash (like, is that something you do?). there are some spacings in which i'd really like to running shine, but you can't crouch out of your initial dash to shine, and it's been really annoying because fox's initial dash is so long (not a problem, as it gives him ridiculous power, but frustrating to deal with sometimes). If a jc shine isn't what you go for, then do you just pick a different option, or just look to dash dance in a way that sets up the shine once you can actually do it?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Me and Otto started doing that recently except often I forget to do it lol (i.e. often I forget it's even a thing). It's hella good if you can do it consistently though.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Cactuar does jc shine all the time. Jab>jc shine is good

 

[Bl@ckChris]

toph, when you did it, did u just use the control stick, or a button (x/y)? the only way i can currently imagine doing a shine out of my initial dash is to basically just dash and do an aerial shine and waveland on a platform, which clearly isn't always possible, or even remotely desired.

 

[Bones0]

Orr.. Title: #UnknownFreed

Almost spat out my drink.

@anyone else, is there anything safe on CC besides drill? late nair still seems sketchy,unless maybe I shield->punish oos etc, does thatwork? i noticed I was able to get away with nairshine sometimes/nair jab(but get punished cuz jab is stupid if shes still CCing)-latenair->fast nair....errr

still looking for tips, preferably from people with lots of samus exp.

Shine. I like to drop through/run off plats, poke the top of their head with a shine, and then DJ to GTFO and just react to their next move. I find it really useful vs. "turtle" styles.

*sigh* toph is right. i'm lurking here cuz i'm having PP teach me fox cuz ganon is a terrible character. i'm learning a lot of interesting things. i'll try to share some useful ones eventually, although sparingly.

my first question to you guys, is how often do you guys try to jc a shine from your initial dash (like, is that something you do?). there are some spacings in which i'd really like to running shine, but you can't crouch out of your initial dash to shine, and it's been really annoying because fox's initial dash is so long (not a problem, as it gives him ridiculous power, but frustrating to deal with sometimes). If a jc shine isn't what you go for, then do you just pick a different option, or just look to dash dance in a way that sets up the shine once you can actually do it?

toph, when you did it, did u just use the control stick, or a button (x/y)? the only way i can currently imagine doing a shine out of my initial dash is to basically just dash and do an aerial shine and waveland on a platform, which clearly isn't always possible, or even remotely desired.

I do this all the time. I use Y -> B. Learn to multishine and grounded shine OoS and it will make this a lot easier.

 

[omgwtfToph]

toph, when you did it, did u just use the control stick, or a button (x/y)? the only way i can currently imagine doing a shine out of my initial dash is to basically just dash and do an aerial shine and waveland on a platform, which clearly isn't always possible, or even remotely desired.

I use the Y button and slide.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hmm okay. currently i slide x to be for my shdl, maybe i'll do the same for this. Thanks guys.

i'll be going to my first tournament as a fox main this weekend. i'll win teams, so that part is cool, but after years of ganon, finally making the switch is going to be both refreshing and challenging. Don't know you guys like i know the ganon boards yet, but if i have enough time i'll try to ask useful questions and pass down any useful nuggets i get from either of the nanneys (pp and twitch)

 

[Dr Peepee]

no my secretsss

 

[UlyssesTheTrojan]

What are some bread and butter things versus Doc? Is Uthrow Uair ever guaranteed? Are there any good 2-3 hit combos to rack up some damage? I know the matchup is definitely in Fox's favor by a good amount but I struggle with it sometimes.