Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[JigglyZelda003]

wheres M@v so we can move on sheesh.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Why not start the discussion now. He can handle the pics later.

So... on to Wario!

 

[M@v]

im here, sheesh >_>. Ive been busy mmk? Well yes, its going as 50:50. Stages dont put THAT much weight in it. And since you guys want to start Wario, get moving on it. Its definitely a harder matchup.

 

[-Mars-]

Do we have grab release to running usmash on him?

 

[§witch]

im here, sheesh >_>. Ive been busy mmk? Well yes, its going as 50:50. Stages dont put THAT much weight in it. And since you guys want to start Wario, get moving on it. Its definitely a harder matchup.

This is definitely diddy's advantage guys. Only a bad diddy can't play on a stage with platforms lol. Diddy controls the stage, and gives fox one hell of a hard time getting back on as well. Between the popgun, nanners, and his 3 spikes, this is most definitely not an even match up.

 

[Conviction]

This is definitely diddy's advantage guys. Only a bad diddy can't play on a stage with platforms lol. Diddy controls the stage, and gives fox one hell of a hard time getting back on as well. Between the popgun, nanners, and his 3 spikes, this is most definitely not an even match up.

Sorry Switch but moving on...

I'll start Wario discussion.

1) Wario has a good air movement
2) Fox has a some-what grab release SH-dair chain (only works if the Wario doesnt force ground grab break)
3) Wario's SA Frames can break Fox's combos
4) Wario has a CG on Fox (0-?% would some one mind looking into that end percentage)
5) Dair Combos work fairly well on Wario
6) Hard to recover with Illision because of Wario's Bair plus its sexkick
7)Hard to edgegaurd Wario because there's SA frame on his bike then his Up-b is hard to punish/Bright side Fox's Bair outprioritizes them and I think a drillshine solves the Up-b problem
I would love if some one could shine light on more bright sides on this match up

Stages you dont want to take Wario to:
1) Lylat Cruise
2) Frigate (iffy depends if stage is flipped or not
3) Rainbow Cruise
4) Jungle Japes

Stages you do want to take him to as a counterpick
1) Castle Siege
2) Halberd
3) Final Destination

Ok lets get this started

 

[Conviction]

This vid shows how a Fox vs. Wario usaully looks like (I know these two are not the best examples)

P.S. this proves how annoying the F-smash can be to Fox

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0x27T5yj1A

 

[DMG]

Zori used Wario, and he used my color as well? DMG approves :D

Eh, Wario vs Fox, I would say 60 : 40 for Wario. Most noticeably factors for Wario include SDIing Dair to avoid Usmash/Dsmash from Fox, Fsmash and Waft can kill at grotesque %'s, Chomp is annoying for Fox to get around, edgeguarding Fox is problematic for Fox to handle, and that Wario does more damage overall on his attacks excluding if you get hit by 4-5 kicks from Fox's Fair. Wario also has some nice Dair combos at lower %'s that beast Fox for falling fast.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i say 60:40 too just in general from my own Wario exp.

 

[-Mars-]

Zori used Wario, and he used my color as well? DMG approves :D

Eh, Wario vs Fox, I would say 60 : 40 for Wario. Most noticeably factors for Wario include SDIing Dair to avoid Usmash/Dsmash from Fox, Fsmash and Waft can kill at grotesque %'s, Chomp is annoying for Fox to get around, edgeguarding Fox is problematic for Fox to handle, and that Wario does more damage overall on his attacks excluding if you get hit by 4-5 kicks from Fox's Fair. Wario also has some nice Dair combos at lower %'s that beast Fox for falling fast.

Can't you smash DI Warios dair as well?

 

[Lightning93]

I would agree this is a 60:40 disadvantage for us. You CAN combo Wario, but because of his priority he can interrupt and punish you if he gets a second of opportunity. Be careful when recovering as well because I've been both **** on and eaten off the stage. Be careful not to leave yourself open when Wario d-airs and be patient because if you open up your shield you may have wished you didn't. Some videos of me fighting a good Wario are uploading as I type this. Wait a sec plz...

Also about his CG, it is his d-throw I assume? If you time your spot-dodge right it is escapable I am sure. I have been able to escape it, but that may have depended on the skill of the Wario I was fighting. My main point here anyways is be wary of Wario's priority and be patient while fighting him. You will rack up damage and if you wait you will get a chance to kill.

 

[Lightning93]

Okay guys here they are:

Match 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-GuH4q5fI

Match 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZBu6MKtRMo

Don't laugh at me too much. This is really me at my worst lol. I'm doing this for the sake of the matchup.

 

[Ace55]

Can't you smash DI Warios dair as well?

Massive aerial movement should counter that. It might make it harder to correctly follow up though.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

like my comment on the second match Dair Dair dair......lol

 

[gantrain05]

well, im gonna have to say its closer to 50-50 if not 60-40 fox advantage, sure wario has his Dair, everyone knows about it, every wario uses it for like 90% of their approaches, i usually just full hop a Dair on top of warios head and start a Dair > Utilt spam > and then i'll wait for warios reaction as soon as Utilt stops working and soon as he's about to hit the ground he gets a running Usmash and then i'll keep him in the air with a Fair, if its airdodged i'll fast fall right on his head with a Dair and Utilt him in the air again. i think most of my kills come from Usmash/Bair/Uair i really don't use Fsmash so much, its too slow and punishable, occasionally i'll get a Dsmash kill, but not often.

 

[DMG]

well, im gonna have to say its closer to 50-50 if not 60-40 fox advantage, sure wario has his Dair, everyone knows about it, every wario uses it for like 90% of their approaches, i usually just full hop a Dair on top of warios head and start a Dair > Utilt spam > and then i'll wait for warios reaction as soon as Utilt stops working and soon as he's about to hit the ground he gets a running Usmash and then i'll keep him in the air with a Fair, if its airdodged i'll fast fall right on his head with a Dair and Utilt him in the air again. i think most of my kills come from Usmash/Bair/Uair i really don't use Fsmash so much, its too slow and punishable, occasionally i'll get a Dsmash kill, but not often.

Shielding kills a lot of Dair/Aerial approaches for Fox since Wario is a good shield grabber, and at the very worst I will still SDI Fox's Dair to where you cannot follow up. Full Hop Dairs/Nairs by Fox give Wario too much reaction time if he is on the ground to avoid/counter Fox in the air.

Fox is too slow in the air horizontally to keep up with Wario, if he airdodges any of your aerials he is almost 100% safe from another one unless he does something like moving towards you expecting for his invincibility to run off and him to be able to attack or something.

Also, I do not believe Wario can truly CG Fox, and yes you can SDI Wario's Dair but you have to start it early and at the end it leaves you really open for another Dair/grab/Fsmash if they are quick. It's almost worse to try and DI out of Dair than it is to stay in it and try to escape followups.

 

[Lightning93]

Lol did you guys even see my vid? Every time I was going in for an aerial Wario would just airdodge to come around and punish me -.-.

And yes JigglyZelda I loved your comment lol XD.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah i saw that alot lol. if an aerial whiffs its better to just walk away and reset if possible.

 

[Lightning93]

yeah i saw that alot lol. if an aerial whiffs its better to just walk away and reset if possible.

Exactly, don't let yourself become open.

 

[Zhamy]

Gotta update that matchup chart soon, hm...

One of you guys throw me a PM if it's not up after a week-ish.

 

[-Mars-]

Really the whole thing about Foxs' dair being SDI'able is really overrated. No player can always do it and even if you do it's not like we're being punished bad. Show me a vid of a player consistently using SDI to escape dair.....until you do stop bringing it up into matchup discussions. I get this same crap with Zelda opponents where supposedly her usmash and fsmash can be SDI'ed so they don't matter as much.

 

[DMG]

Really the whole thing about Foxs' dair being SDI'able is really overrated. No player can always do it and even if you do it's not like we're being punished bad. Show me a vid of a player consistently using SDI to escape dair.....until you do stop bringing it up into matchup discussions. I get this same crap with Zelda opponents where supposedly her usmash and fsmash can be SDI'ed so they don't matter as much.

Think about it though, if I can just DI a move to where you have no guaranteed followups, the best thing to assume is that I can/will do it consistently. Same for you guys DIing Wario's Dair, it may be somewhat hard to do but I didn't forget about it or write it off as in-applicable.

It's also not too hard to DI it if you are in the air, you can watch Paxz vs Light and see some times where he gets hit by it in the air and is able to dodge something bad lol.

 

[-Mars-]

Think about it though, if I can just DI a move to where you have no guaranteed followups, the best thing to assume is that I can/will do it consistently. Same for you guys DIing Wario's Dair, it may be somewhat hard to do but I didn't forget about it or write it off as in-applicable.

It's also not too hard to DI it if you are in the air, you can watch Paxz vs Light and see some times where he gets hit by it in the air and is able to dodge something bad lol.

Fair enough, i'm just tired of people writing off his dair because of SDI. I understand what you're saying though.

 

[Colbert]

Sorry that I'm late to the party, but I completely disagree with your assessment versus Diddy, especially when it comes to banana control and edgeguarding.

While it may be easy to overwhelm a Diddy randomly glide tossing two bananas full throttle with your reflector, the fact of the matter is that most Diddys will either bait the reflector or just use one banana at a time. If you try to play aggressively picking up the bananas with your fast dash attack, Diddy's clear experience with handling the bananas will not play to your favor. Most Diddy's play this matchup with more dash attacks and glide tossing up or down baiting the reflector and/or using the Fatalities Fake. Banana grouping, the popgun/ popgun midair cancel, and aerial priority (except for dair), and KO power don't play to your favor either..

 

[Lightning93]

Lol glad I could help ;p!

 

[DMG]

Fair enough, i'm just tired of people writing off his dair because of SDI. I understand what you're saying though.

Also, whoever said SDIing Zelda's Usmash was easy is lying lol. U better know your frame data and be able to SDI well or you are screwed.

 

[Lightning93]

Sorry that I'm late to the party, but I completely disagree with your assessment versus Diddy, especially when it comes to banana control and edgeguarding.

While it may be easy to overwhelm a Diddy randomly glide tossing two bananas full throttle with your reflector, the fact of the matter is that most Diddys will either bait the reflector or just use one banana at a time. If you try to play aggressively picking up the bananas with your fast dash attack, Diddy's clear experience with handling the bananas will not play to your favor. Most Diddy's play this matchup with more dash attacks and glide tossing up or down baiting the reflector and/or using the Fatalities Fake. Banana grouping, the popgun/ popgun midair cancel, and aerial priority (except for dair), and KO power don't play to your favor either..

Yes we have already went over this, but in comparison to other characters Fox has a bit more chance of defending against a Diddy then other characters.

Also, our speed allows us the hope of stopping a Diddy before he can actually reach his nanas, and then overwhelm him until eventually we can get a chance to kill. If we fail at overwhelming then Diddy can turn the tides, which is what makes the match 50:50. I'm sure every aspect has been covered at some point.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

^^^ Wario: I find it most useful to keep a Wario at about mid-range away from me. Once I close in he has too many near-range options and if I sit back and blaster (or wait to punish) he can just plow through with the Wariocycle or approach with arials. Dair makes me cringe. However, he is pretty shield-grabable becuase of his unusual move lags.

So I'm not sure were to place the matchup. 40:60 Wario?

 

[-Mars-]

^^^ Wario: I find it most useful to keep a Wario at about mid-range away from me. Once I close in he has too many near-range options and if I sit back and blaster (or wait to punish) he can just plow through with the Wariocycle or approach with arials. Dair makes me cringe. However, he is pretty shield-grabable becuase of his unusual move lags.

So I'm not sure were to place the matchup. 40:60 Wario?

unusual move lags? what are you talking about?

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

For some reason I don't seem to have a difficulty against Wario. I believe if you play a proper spacing game and camp him things are smooth sailing.

I just think Fox's grab game hurts Wario. Like I can gimp Warios with a nicely timed grab release to gimp of the edge.

Dr. Mario Guy. I know you are very knowledgeable on Wario, can you please point out his biggest strengths =D So I can see how Fox can counter.

Appreciated in advance!

 

[Lightning93]

Well Wario seems to plow through most of our combos if given the opportunity, and he racks up damage and can kill us quite quickly. Our gimping game is distorted here because Wario has faster aerial movement and can airdodge most of our attacks and can override our shine spikes with his bike if not timed perfectly.

Our grab game is to our advantage in this matchup, but it still rivals that of Wario's. We can rack up damage if given the chance, our main focus here is to be patient and wait for openings. When you do gain one don't waste it and don't foolishly try to follow it up unless you are certain, otherwise Wario will out-prioritize your attempt and punish you.

This game is easier to win as Wario then Fox so I'm going to have to agree 60:40 Wario's advantage. Just be patient and exert pressure when given the chance.

(Lol I am coming up with the three P's in brawl, patience, pressure, and persistence. Not a bad way of fighting eh?)

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

(Lol I am coming up with the three P's in brawl, patience, pressure, and persistence. Not a bad way of fighting eh?)

^ I can dig it.

 

[DMG]

For some reason I don't seem to have a difficulty against Wario. I believe if you play a proper spacing game and camp him things are smooth sailing.

I just think Fox's grab game hurts Wario. Like I can gimp Warios with a nicely timed grab release to gimp of the edge.

Dr. Mario Guy. I know you are very knowledgeable on Wario, can you please point out his biggest strengths =D So I can see how Fox can counter.

Appreciated in advance!

Well most of his strengths honestly are hard to counter (Being heavy, killing well, having insane aerial control, recovery, etc.) There's not a general strategy put there for battling Wario except to try and space well and maybe camp occasionally. Other than that, you just got to play the player himself and try to counter what he does specifically compared to Wario overall.

Grabbing Wario is pretty hard, he also has a better grab range than you. If you can grab him near the edge and get a free release, try to get an Usmash if you can.

 

[Zhamy]

In short:

Wario has better damage output, more aerial options, and a relatively easy way of putting Fox in bad positions. Nothing that's HUGELY better against Fox, but significant nonetheless. The mechanics are still in debate, etc. Continue.

 

[Lightning93]

In short:

Wario has better damage output, more aerial options, and a relatively easy way of putting Fox in bad positions. Nothing that's HUGELY better against Fox, but significant nonetheless. The mechanics are still in debate, etc. Continue.

For these reasons I agree 60:40 Wario's advantage, what I am hoping for now are some ways to help improve these numbers by a even the tiniest bit .

 

[Flamingo777]

For these reasons I agree 60:40 Wario's advantage, what I am hoping for now are some ways to help improve these numbers by a even the tiniest bit .

Yes, wario is a tricky one..

 

[Fenrir VII]

Do we have grab release to running usmash on him?

Nah...unfortunately. A mediocre Wario will try to mash out of grabs and do the jump release accientally, but Wario can ground release for you to have no followups.


I used to think Wario was REALLY bad for Fox... I kinda changed my opinion on that... you have to play really differently, though.

The thing about the Fox D-air being SDI-ed is kinda crazy... even if it is DIed, it can still land followups like utilt and grab for back and front, respectively...

Wario does a lot of this game from shield...using aerials to zone your shield... This really isn't that bad... shield his aerials, then go for a grab or a pwg (unpunishable)...the pwg can land even against his spot dodge with proper timing...

Fox can combo Wario like nothing... and he's one of the better chars at edge-guarding against him...in the top 20% or so...all imo of course. YOu will still have a huge problem edge-guarding him, but it's possible to put him into position where you can get a kill...

Right now, I think Wario's spam fsmash TOO much... leading to them being predictable, but neglecting that, Wario does have a lot of good options against Fox, while Fox can dish out punishment right back...

The chain grab of Wario's doesn't work against a roll or spot dodge...just pointing that out.

This is actually a really fun match for me... but I will still give it a 6-4 for Wario. He has a slight advantage, but nothing at all unwinnable. Just play smart, and this match is really even.

 

[Lightning93]

Yes I agree if you play smart this isn't so bad. However, be wary that some Wario's will only bring out their f-smash when reasonable so you must always be on the lookout. If you shield one aerial retaliate or roll away quickly because most likely he will follow up with a shield grab or another aerial. Don't let your shield be torn to shreds, because that's the last thing you want in this match-up.

Also, be wary of the dreaded fart-spike of the stage, it's not fun... you can look at my first video for an example...

 

[Fenrir VII]

Btw, I realize it's long gone, but people keep discussing it late... so yeah...

Fox vs Diddy could be anywhere from 4-6 to 6-4... it's a very good match. Fox's edgeguarding game against him is ridiculous, though, so Diddy really has trouble if he gets off the stage....oh and landing a shine on the barrels is hilarious

His normal control game isn't as effective as it normally is due to Fox's speed, and good aerial options to avoid the bananas.

The main problem is that Fox is just a killing machine, and Diddy can't keep up with it, really...

I don't know how stage dependent the match really is...because it seems like Diddy and Fox both do well on the ame set of stages... Japes is a good CP, I'd say... Mansion, Cruise, etc etc... of the neutrals, Lylat is one of Fox's best, but Diddy doesn't mind it all that much. BF is restricting for both of them, etc...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Don't let your shield be torn to shreds, because that's the last thing you want in this match-up.

yeah thats true, in that one match i never seen Warios Dair do that to a shield lol, but at least if Fox is torn down at low percents its not so bad, but JP..............

Also, be wary of the dreaded fart-spike of the stage, it's not fun... you can look at my first video for an example...

lol that was surprising.

Fox vs Diddy could be anywhere from 4-6 to 6-4... it's a very good match....

im guessing this is why were calling it 50:50 cause stages can sway it in eithers favor? also why does it seem that people want to drop in and say something about the diddy match when its already over? im just waiting for Peach cause i can really talk about her.