G&W's match-ups for the BBR- IMO

[A2ZOMG]

Why G&W should win against Wario:

1. Aerials are better
2. Ground game is better
3. D-throw sets up into free hits, INCLUDING techchase F-air
4. Grabbing Wario is actually easy for G&W due to better aerials and ground game limiting Wario's options.
5. Because grabbing Wario is easy, there are a lot of opportunities to techchase him for free damage and kills.

Matchup I feel is even at worst as long as you understand that you can follow up Jab, DA, D-tilt, and F-air pretty safely after D-throws.

 

[Alphicans]

I agree that it seems like an even match-up/we win, but it requires such good execution on our part :/.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I feel a lot of G&Ws don't really have trouble in this matchup, just they overlook options on D-throw, which makes the matchup seem more difficult than it actually is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9n7yunBkdQ

Kaos overall does well against Gluttony, in fact he wins (note that he gets quite a few grabs), yet it's extremely obvious that if he simply picked better options for techchasing instead of trying to force U-smashes, he would have won a lot more convincingly.

 

[Today]

A2, what matches did you watch of Warios vs. GnW?

I'm going from playing M a l c o l m. From what I notice, for me, even if GnW gets a grab if he misses a grab he gets punished pretty hard for it. And it's still difficult for GnW to get a nice, consistent grab-- especially on Wario.
>.>; It's definitely not a hardcore 70:30 GnW favor...
Both Wario and GnW are ariel type characters, however Wario takes advatange of the air easier than GnW. And although GnW punishes characters well when they are in the air Wario can easily avoid that since Wario can come in through all angles and avoid GnW shenanigans.
And I've played two really good Warios (One of the best here, and one of the best from the EC).
I do think it can be even-ish, but still a slight disadvantage on GnWs part.
Wario has a better air game, doesn't fear GnW's ground game, and is hard to kill.
You can't think, "Oh this match up is suddenly 70:30 because of air release" because tons of characters have it on him.
The problem, again, is that GnW does have a harder time getting a grab on Wario and if misses GnW gets punished really really badly for it.
Not only that, GnW doesn't handle Wario's uair that well and since Wario has a lot of freaky bike combos that can be hard enough for GnW to avoid, landing kills on GnW isn't difficult for Wario.
The only things we do have that is pretty legit is fair and even then, it is laggy so missing it once can also mean getting punished.
It's just the fact that once Wario gets in-- he gets it in. And wracks up damage really really well and even kills. So missing a grab, or messing up a fair, etc will hurt GnW a lot.
Let me put it like this: What GnW can do Wario can do better. (Ariels, air dodges, grabs, etc).
Sticking by: 45:55 AKA Slight Disadvantage for GnW.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

From what I've seen it's a 50:50, simply because if we manage to keep him away he loses, we rack up the damage really, really quickly at mid range, so his weight doesn't matter as much, while he wrecks us up close. Perfectly spaced BAirs and FAirs imo work pretty well. Our ground game might not be particularly feared, but it still does what we need it to in getting him away. Also, don't let him break his bike if you can. I managed it a couple of times, and once got him offstage, it was much, much easier to beat him. I think I got a timed USmash at one point, and I'm pretty sure I saved the replay. Not the best of matches - Toronto is a pretty weak area - but whatever.
Anyways, just my 2 cents, I'll probably be playing this MU a lot more in the coming months, this is quite literally my opinion from one day of playing a Wario, just figured I'd throw it out there.

 

[overgamer]

I dunno, I feel a lot of G&Ws don't really have trouble in this matchup, just they overlook options on D-throw, which makes the matchup seem more difficult than it actually is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9n7yunBkdQ

Kaos overall does well against Gluttony, in fact he wins (note that he gets quite a few grabs), yet it's extremely obvious that if he simply picked better options for techchasing instead of trying to force U-smashes, he would have won a lot more convincingly.

Dude, this is soooooo old. Man...

Glutto wreaks havocs much much much harder anytime now. He will **** any G&W he comes across.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

I sat and watched Bassem and Zac play for about half an hour one night after MLG. There's no way that MU is in our favor.
Pretty much everything Day said.

 

[Alphicans]

Day is overlooking a couple things.

1.) We have upB OoS. Wario has a really hard time getting inside of us and doing damage. We can hit him with upB if we just stand in one place and shield and wait for an attack.

2.) Wario has awful range on most of his attacks. Nair covers the majority of his options for approaching, so we can realistically shut down just about everything.

Why this match-up is hard:

-obviously we can't kill him well at all, not even with fair because this move is too good for damage to pass up

-juggling him is harder than most characters because he is one of the few that has better air mobility than us

-waft kills us stupid early even with bucket braking

-uair beats our dair if spaced well. I still wouldn't worry too much about this because you can usually mess up the spacing, but still it's a real threat and will kill early.

-can rack up damage fast if we're not careful, which leads to early kills with uair,fsmash or waft

What should we do? UpB everything, and make it scary to have a fully charged waft. This makes his waft more predictable because now he can't really afford to use it once it's full. Also, if you have a lead attempt to time him out... This is probably our best chance at winning because we actually hit him more than he hits us. This makes up for the kill disparity.

Overall this match-up SHOULD be in our favor, but in practice I think wario beats us slightly. I have quite a bit of trouble with this character, so I tend to think we get ***** by him, but I know better than to let bias get in the way.

 

[Today]

I do agree that we have things on Wario. Which is why it's not like he wrecks us.
But I still say even/slightly disadvantage.
Just because despite everything we do have, Wario does it a bit better. 45:55 doesn't exactly mean it's a hard matchup at all. You shouldn't get ***** (so definitely practice it) but I'm going by sitting down with two extremely good Wario players and playing them + playing one of them in a tourney setting more than once.
What I am disagreeing with is that it's not 70:30 Game and Watch's favor and pointing out what Wario can do.
Or saying: Looking at it from both, a Wario PoV and GnW PoV instead of just GnW PoV.

 

[UTDZac]

I sat and watched Bassem and Zac play for about half an hour one night after MLG. There's no way that MU is in our favor.
Pretty much everything Day said.

Don't take anything from those games if you know what's good for you.

G&W : Wario is even imo.

Or, in some cases, whoever can camp harder has the advantage. Ask DMG.

 

[Phoxhound]

on paper i think wario could be in our favor but I think a lack of development is what sets us behind. right now i would say even.

 

[toobusytocare]

Grabbing Wario is NOT hard for G&W. Did you even read what I said?

It's not a simple explanation, but the fact of the matter is that Wario has holes in his game especially when fighting against someone like G&W, who has a lot of aerials that he cannot challenge directly. This HUGELY affects the way Wario has to space against G&W. Wario's closeup game is also worse than G&W's, and G&W can control Wario very well up close with his Jab, especially since Wario does not have any fast combo breakers to interrupt G&W's grab followup besides dodging.

In my experience against Wario, and from watching matches of G&W vs Wario, G&W users never really have trouble grabbing Wario when it's necessary. They also do MUCH better in the matchup when their D-throw techchase games actually work, though I feel that techchasing is an area that is universally underdeveloped for all G&Ws.

Yes we need F-air for damage, but stale moves would be MUCH less a problem if G&W users actually knew how to techchase with D-throw. Even for just basic followups like D-tilt and Dash attack. That alone would be enough to solve G&W's problems killing, not to mention the fact we can TECHCHASE into F-air.

Dude, you don't even play this game aymore and you have never beat a good wario, so theory craft some more lmao.

Why G&W should win against Wario:

1. Aerials are better
2. Ground game is better
3. D-throw sets up into free hits, INCLUDING techchase F-air
4. Grabbing Wario is actually easy for G&W due to better aerials and ground game limiting Wario's options.
5. Because grabbing Wario is easy, there are a lot of opportunities to techchase him for free damage and kills.

Matchup I feel is even at worst as long as you understand that you can follow up Jab, DA, D-tilt, and F-air pretty safely after D-throws.

wario's aerial game is better than GnWs, hence why he's a better character. and warios ground game ***** GnWs, lmao. His ftilt and fsmash beat basically everything GnW has.
and i guess having "better" aerials makes it somehow easier to grab? lmao
and if wario techs gnw's dthrow theres actually nothing GnW can do to follow up, you're better off uthrowing because being under wario is a better position for GnW (due to his uair and nair being the best tools in this matchup.

You clearly know nothing about this matchup.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

Don't take anything from those games if you know what's good for you.

G&W : Wario is even imo.

Or, in some cases, whoever can camp harder has the advantage. Ask DMG.

I know, but watching ya'll screw around I still saw the kinds of tools each character has to use effectively against the other.

Both characters can camp a lead on the other really well IMO.

 

[iamjason8]

We have upB OoS.

Took a while for this to come up.

We probably have enough information to make another GaW mu thread. And vs Wario, this will be particularly helpful..

 

[Alphicans]

Dude, you don't even play this game aymore and you have never beat a good wario, so theory craft some more lmao.



wario's aerial game is better than GnWs, hence why he's a better character. and warios ground game ***** GnWs, lmao. His ftilt and fsmash beat basically everything GnW has.
and i guess having "better" aerials makes it somehow easier to grab? lmao
and if wario techs gnw's dthrow theres actually nothing GnW can do to follow up, you're better off uthrowing because being under wario is a better position for GnW (due to his uair and nair being the best tools in this matchup.

You clearly know nothing about this matchup.

Dthrow to fair works...

Wario's ground game doesn't **** us wtf. You're talking as if you're MK LOL! Our aerials kind of counter your air game. Not to say that vs everyone our air game > yours, but in this match-up ours is pretty great. Your saving grace is that when we're above you, we're a bit screwed because you can chase our movement well and uair beats dair.

Oh and yeah, upB OoS is essential in this match-up. Doesn't do much damage, but prevents LOTS of BS.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2, what matches did you watch of Warios vs. GnW?

I'm going from playing M a l c o l m. From what I notice, for me, even if GnW gets a grab if he misses a grab he gets punished pretty hard for it. And it's still difficult for GnW to get a nice, consistent grab-- especially on Wario.

It sounds like you're not using Jab enough! =/

I put up a video of Kaos vs Gluttony for reference. Notice that he gets quite a few grabs, but fails miserably at techchases. Also note that he does a LOT of damage to Gluttony in general.

Plus I really don't know what else to say besides get better at reacting. Wario really shouldn't be punishing you a lot for grabbing him. The fact of the matter is there are moments you have to recognize where he's vulnerable to getting grabbed, and when he's not vulnerable to getting grabbed, he's in danger of getting walled by G&W's superior aerials and ground moves.

>.>; It's definitely not a hardcore 70:30 GnW favor...

You're really really underestimating how easy it is for G&W to grab Wario. Hypothetically speaking, if we could air release Wario into Smash consistently, then we would in fact be looking at a 70/30 matchup in G&W's favor. The only reason we even lose is most likely because G&W users don't know how to capitalize off grab in this matchup, and thus suffer from stale moves more than they should be.

Both Wario and GnW are ariel type characters, however Wario takes advatange of the air easier than GnW. And although GnW punishes characters well when they are in the air Wario can easily avoid that since Wario can come in through all angles and avoid GnW shenanigans.

It's not as simple as that to say Wario dominates G&W in the air (which he really doesn't). Yes Wario's air mobility is stupid, but if he were as good in the air as you were suggesting, he would literally require an instant air teleport. Furthermore, G&W doesn't even have to take to the air to easily anti-air Wario. Wario has a lot of trouble dealing with G&W's tilts and U-smash when implemented well.

Wario has a better air game, doesn't fear GnW's ground game, and is hard to kill.
You can't think, "Oh this match up is suddenly 70:30 because of air release" because tons of characters have it on him.

Wario's air game is really overhyped imo.

Aside from the fact that Wario users do not implement Bite as much as they should, his aerials and air mobility do have punishable limits that he cannot ignore.

Furthermore, G&W's ground game is much better than you're giving it credit for, especially since his Jab leads to grab, which we can use for techchases that lead to high damage and potential kills.

The problem, again, is that GnW does have a harder time getting a grab on Wario and if misses GnW gets punished really really badly for it.

Don't grab if it's not going to work. Seriously...yes Wario can bait, but I'm telling you that you can of course not get baited, AND you can very feasibly confirm safe consistent grabs in this matchup. Keep in mind that a shielded Wario F-smash = free grab.

Not only that, GnW doesn't handle Wario's uair that well and since Wario has a lot of freaky bike combos that can be hard enough for GnW to avoid, landing kills on GnW isn't difficult for Wario.

I don't know where you're getting this from. Wario's U-air is a bad move. Yes he has mobility shenanigans and his U-air does 17%, but it's a bad move. It shouldn't be hitting you more than once in most matches. And I don't get why you think Bike is an issue. Either learn to combo DI, or learn to zone more safely.

I strongly believe G&W outdoes Wario in damage dealing by far, and the only reason that G&W users lose is because they don't know how to make the most of D-throw to work around stale moves and set up kills. Seriously guys, just learn to techchase into F-airs and Dash attacks. Doing just that will instantly make you better at the matchup.

Like seriously, G&W has some of the same tools on Wario that Falcon does, and many more, minus the fact we don't get free grab release kills. And yet Falcon goes even with Wario, and yet people complain G&W loses slightly when all he's missing out on is grab release F-smash (which matters...but our techchases also matter)? I feel that we as players have not yet pushed ourselves to full potential in this matchup.

wario's aerial game is better than GnWs, hence why he's a better character. and warios ground game ***** GnWs, lmao. His ftilt and fsmash beat basically everything GnW has.
and i guess having "better" aerials makes it somehow easier to grab? lmao
and if wario techs gnw's dthrow theres actually nothing GnW can do to follow up, you're better off uthrowing because being under wario is a better position for GnW (due to his uair and nair being the best tools in this matchup.

You clearly know nothing about this matchup.

Wario cannot challenge any of G&W's aerials directly for the most part. G&W's F-air in particular will wall the vast majority of whatever Wario tries in front of G&W, and is mostly safe when fullhopped. N-air is also extremely impractically difficult for Wario to punish from above G&W, and Up-B also beats everything above G&W in this matchup. Yeah U-air can kinda beat D-air, but it should rarely ever happen especially if the G&W knows when to mix up slowfalls.

You're not whiff punishing G&W's Jab, which is a faster move than anything Wario has on the ground, and sets up into grab, as well as outdisjointing Wario's air game from certain angles. Furthermore both F-tilt and F-smash are unsafe on block and can either be aerialed or dashgrabbed out of shield.

Yes having aerials that Wario cannot challenge directly AFFECTS HOW WARIO HAS TO SPACE AGAINST HIS OPPONENT. When you include that G&W has a superior Jab and grab game to work with, it's actually not hard for G&W to grab Wario. And lol at suggesting that F-tilt and F-smash give Wario a good ground game.

Furthermore, if I read the techroll, I have PLENTY of time to techchase into F-air. I'm not entirely sure how hard G&W can punish tech in place, but the most important part is that techroll IS PUNISHABLE by regrab and F-air.

 

[Publix]

I play MASKY alot. He was on the Fl top ten and he mains Wario. Also i beat GDX's wario in tourny. he doesn't main wario, but he is somewhere in the top 5 in FL i think(mains diddy). so imma say some things.

first words of wisdom from MASKY: (pauses game cuz he was ****** me too bad *) " You know your nair ***** wario right? There's pretty much nothing that we can do against it" and "if you just spam usmash wario pretty much can't do anything" i then proceeded to do running usmashes all over the place. He does punish it with a crazily timed bites tho.

Words from me: When the fart is charged: spam upair and up-b. I get a decent amount of kills from both moves. If you drop down from the ledge or get under the ledge and Wario goes after you, he's 95% of the time gunna fart.

-chef is real good on the ledge, only because you can get alot of chef to Fair kills.

- HAVE TAP JUMP ON! THIS HAS MADE ME SUCH A BETTER PLAYER! -he is gunna dair you, just up-b out of shield silly.

- jump over him, if they shield, jump again, wait till you get close dair and make sure to slow fall it, and land behind just in case. This gets Masky dead sea salty.

- I seem to get some kills if fair when they ledge jump off the edge.

- If they space aerials perfectly, our crouch puts us out of range. works decent for meta's fair too.

-upb out of shield if you're on a platform and they are under you, your shield will get bitten if you dont.

-divide him from his bike, he'll try and get back to it like popo to nana.

- If you guys want me to test something on a match against him i will. we play weekly. sorry for long post.

 

[Publix]

u know what? eff u guys, i'm not telling u any more secrets. no comments in about 1 month. eff that. too drunk for this bull ****. oooooohhh look at me ****************** alll over the place. but for re3al kids. have a designated a driver. i was that, then i doty **** then my sister turned into that. i just chilled in the back seat. weddings equal winning. : ) open bar. (don't dair into meta uptilt, have fun in life)

edit: oopsies, just saw that i posted this... 18 character curse word?!

 

[Phoxhound]

wario's aerial game is better than GnWs, hence why he's a better character.

wario may have superior aerial mobility but i think a lot of what lands him higher than G&W is his survivability and not being the 2nd lightest character in the game. G&W has superior hitboxes on pretty much all of his aerials and G&W's fair has good enough recovery time to let you keep pace with wario's air game.

 

[nekokatsu]

why this topic died!!!, im going to start posting on G&W, cuz until last torney i mained Zelda/G&W, but i got tired of losing... so in teh last torney i decided to go 100% G&W and i got 5th =)... so im changing 100%...

i also agree Wario should be in our favor, kaos in that match, eveytime he got a grab to D throw, didnt buffer the up smash right, if i learned something from Zelda, if this... if u kill 1 stock under 100% then the round is pretty much over, and GW has at least 2 ways of doing that against Wario, u have the D throw to F smash/up smash, and the f air of stage... both are not difficult to do. u just have to read ur opponent.

@publix: could u reconsider sharing ur secrets xDDD???, i wish to learn the IC MU.

 

[Publix]

why this topic died!!!, im going to start posting on G&W, cuz until last torney i mained Zelda/G&W, but i got tired of losing... so in teh last torney i decided to go 100% G&W and i got 5th =)... so im changing 100%...

i also agree Wario should be in our favor, kaos in that match, eveytime he got a grab to D throw, didnt buffer the up smash right, if i learned something from Zelda, if this... if u kill 1 stock under 100% then the round is pretty much over, and GW has at least 2 ways of doing that against Wario, u have the D throw to F smash/up smash, and the f air of stage... both are not difficult to do. u just have to read ur opponent.

@publix: could u reconsider sharing ur secrets xDDD???, i wish to learn the IC MU.

Lol sure!, but first. Did you drunk post too? you did, didn't you? I dunno what you just said! lol

and you want IC secrets? I learned the match up a long time ago, so pretty much, bair and space farther than you think you should. Don't grab them unless you got major ca-honeys, then it's fine. don't dair when they're in the air, cuz they're all like, "our uair beats that, we think". Mash like crazy if you get grabbed. and you can bucket ice breath. I haven't played the match up in over a year tho, so i dunno. Just believe in yourself and curse if you get grabbed.
Good job on 5th dude!

 

[nekokatsu]

i didnt drunk post!!! >_<, english its not my native language xD. i typed the last post too fast xDDD, and withouth giving it much tought xDD...
i changed from Zelda to G&W to stop losing. and the thing i learned from Zelda, is that if u manage to kill 1 stock of your oponnent when he's still under 100%, then u can count the round as won.

 

[Publix]

lol, oh ok, i see what your saying.