General ICs Q&A Thread

[dj asakura]

R as attack and Z as jump? That seems so awkward, haha.

But alrighty, I'm going to stick with what I have and just learn how to do everything with my setup. I just need to put some serious time into this game soon. The end of the semester needs to be over, haha.

 

[FrozenHobo]

R as attack and Z as jump? That seems so awkward, haha.

But alrighty, I'm going to stick with what I have and just learn how to do everything with my setup. I just need to put some serious time into this game soon. The end of the semester needs to be over, haha.

why are you laughing? no part of that post was funny.

 

[dj asakura]

I'm one of those people that's fallen into the awful habit of typing "haha" after I type anything about someone else in hopes that they understand that I mean no ill will towards them whatsoever.


...


haha

 

[r3d d09]

i know exactly how that is DJ

 

[dj asakura]

I also blame awkward AIM conversations with people who I would say something mean about and then type "haha" to make it seem like a joke.

Stupid internet generation...

 

[00-Zero]

Z jump is indeed for the win
but then I have L attack, and X grab

 

[r3d d09]

i don't understand the attack on different buttons. details please.

and what's so special about z jump? ha

 

[FrozenHobo]

i have r grab, tap off.

 

[ch33s3]

Z jump was initially so I could upb OOS without tap jump, but now I use it for easier aerial desynchs, I can reach jump, attack, and special all at the same time.

 

[toobusytocare]

so, i've recently picked up icies for the falco MU, i've got the bthrow>dthrow cg down on them, but what's the best way to approach an extremely campy falco?

utilt, dsmash, nair, and blizzard all beat phantasm pretty easily.

plus once you interupt it he gets landing lag next time he lands without a B move.

also ice blocks

 

[dj asakura]

Z jump was initially so I could upb OOS without tap jump, but now I use it for easier aerial desynchs, I can reach jump, attack, and special all at the same time.

That's not a bad idea....I don't use Z as it is so maybe I'll give that a shot. Still gotta figure out the shield buffer slide for the CG though. Probably won't get to play around with it much until I go home for the summer though.

 

[r3d d09]

i'd like to see the applications in real time so i could understand this easier xD

 

[00-Zero]

The shield buffering?
It's just holding the shield to make nana slide to you during cg's.

 

[dj asakura]

The shield buffering?
It's just holding the shield to make nana slide to you during cg's.

The video made it seem like holding Z while in the grab would cause the shield to happen anyway. You'll have to excuse me, I haven't had a chance to play in the last few days, let alone try and test anything out.

 

[00-Zero]

The video made it seem like holding Z while in the grab would cause the shield to happen anyway. You'll have to excuse me, I haven't had a chance to play in the last few days, let alone try and test anything out.

Holding the grab button after catching a grab will cause the shield to happen anyway
Like after you back throw, hold your grab button just a little longer.

 

[dj asakura]

Holding the grab button after catching a grab will cause the shield to happen anyway
Like after you back throw, hold your grab button just a little longer.

I did not know that, thank you sir.

 

[r3d d09]

not the buffer shield thing, just the whole crazy configuration.

 

[shadyf0o]

In the past month and a half I have managed to teach myself how to chain-grab. I can do the double back-throw chain-grab, and the back-throw to forward-throw chain-grab. However, those are the only ones I know how to do. I can manage a forward-throw chain-grab, but only if it's Nana passing off to Popo. I cannot get the timing for forward chain-grab where Popo passes off to Nana. Also, I cannot figure out how to do the down-throw chain grab. Do you back-throw before you down-throw? I feel like a Noob going to tournaments and being the only IC doing double back-throws , haha. I really want to be able to mix up my gameplay, not just with chain-grabs, but in all aspects.

 

[B0NK]

In the past month and a half I have managed to teach myself how to chain-grab. I can do the double back-throw chain-grab, and the back-throw to forward-throw chain-grab. However, those are the only ones I know how to do. I can manage a forward-throw chain-grab, but only if it's Nana passing off to Popo. I cannot get the timing for forward chain-grab where Popo passes off to Nana. Also, I cannot figure out how to do the down-throw chain grab. Do you back-throw before you down-throw? I feel like a Noob going to tournaments and being the only IC doing double back-throws , haha. I really want to be able to mix up my gameplay, not just with chain-grabs, but in all aspects.

Nothing wrong with using a CG no one else is if it still takes the stock. But I'll try to help you out since knowing all of them allows you to CG even under unusual conditions.

Forward throw from Popo to Nana (usually) requires Nana to be in a neutral stance (not in the end lag of her grab animation, etc.) before forward throwing with Popo. Also be careful of buffering a dash when you don't want to, messing with Nana's position. You press grab at the same moment you would for Nana to Popo.

For d-throw, after you initiate it, tell the available climber to walk forward and press grab when you see the opponent flat on the ground. This timing may not be true for you, so mess around with it and hopefully this will get you started. Also the CG is usually performed as b-throw to d-throw on lightweights, almost every climber player has a different way to CG middle and heavy weights so just experiment.

Also consider learning hobbling, but I'm not gonna walk you through that until you show me you've done your own research on it and attempted it yourself. (Basically CG with footstools.) It does have it's own advantages and disadvantages.

It will take more then just a few months to truly have the CG completely down. It varies from player to player how long it takes. Good luck.

 

[shadyf0o]

Thanks for the in depth answer. I definitly am look into hobbling. I'm in training mode as I write this lol.

 

[shadyf0o]

You press grab at the same moment you would for Nana to Popo.

Are you sure?

 

[FrozenHobo]

edit button.

 

[B0NK]

Are you sure?

It is for me. Like I said finding the timing will require you to find what works for you. Just keep experimenting until you find your own timing and visual/auditory cues. I didn't look into frame data so no, I'm not 100% sure (and at this point the timing is natural so I may not notice the difference).

 

[HotWings]

What are all the characters that ICs can Bthrow to Dthrow inf? The only ones i have actually been able to do easily are pikachu and MK. Are there any others that ICs can do this to?

 

[toobusytocare]

every character

 

[r3d d09]

it's just different timings for others.

 

[EverAlert]

Are you sure?

No, that is incorrect.

Let's look at a little frame data to illustrate this point:

Nana's Input Delay: 5 frames.
FThrow Frame Data: 24 Release / 50 IASA
Grab Frame Data: 6-7 Hit / 30 IASA

Let's assume you don't mess up anything. You tapped the stick at the right speed and stopped the "free" climber at the right position, and pressed grab at the right time. In regards to pressing grab, here's what happens:

Popo to Nana - Input FThrow on frame 1. Input Grab on frame 14, grab initiates on frame 19 due to Nana's delay. Grab connects on frame 24. Timing = 14 frames.

Nana to Popo - Input FThrow on frame 1, throw initiates on frame 6 due to Nana's delay. Input Grab on frame 24. Grab connects on frame 29. Timing = 24 frames.

It's a difference of 10 frames, easily noticeable to anyone. The difference is 10 frames regardless of the throw or victim in question. Compared to the hypothetical "Popo passing to Popo", regrabbing in Popo to Nana is always 5 frames early. In the same comparison, Nana to Popo is always 5 frames late. These are of course the earliest/perfect timings possible, in practice you usually get a good 4 or more frames of leeway unless the victim is at obscenely high percentages.

Incidentally, FThrow frame data is the same on all characters, but again, this example can be applied to any throw on any character (barring UThrow, obviously).

 

[B0NK]

Useful frame data

Thanks for this, I can't believe I didn't think about Nana's delay.

So I thought about why I thought the timing was similar, I believe it's because I look for the same visual/auditory cues whether it's from Popo to Nana or Nana to Popo and don't realize the frame difference because regardless which frame the cue was on, that's when I responded to it.

Also it might be because I wait for Nana to cool down from any lag she is experiencing, such as grab lag or from the Nana's f-throw before initiating the next grab (Popo to Nana)

Out of curiosity though, wouldn't waiting for Nana to be in a more correct position before tossing off from Popo to Nana (recovering from lag, moving closer to you) produce a similar timing as Nana to Popo? Of course this wouldn't be the ideal CG at low percents, (like below 40%) but I'm trying to figure out why the timing feels similar to me.

It might just be my mind playing tricks on me o.O

 

[HyL!]

edit~nevermind x.x

 

[shadyf0o]

Is there a thread for IC critiques? Where should I put my vids that I want critiqued?

 

[shadyf0o]

No, that is incorrect.

Let's look at a little frame data to illustrate this point:

Nana's Input Delay: 5 frames.
FThrow Frame Data: 24 Release / 50 IASA
Grab Frame Data: 6-7 Hit / 30 IASA

Let's assume you don't mess up anything. You tapped the stick at the right speed and stopped the "free" climber at the right position, and pressed grab at the right time. In regards to pressing grab, here's what happens:

Popo to Nana - Input FThrow on frame 1. Input Grab on frame 14, grab initiates on frame 19 due to Nana's delay. Grab connects on frame 24. Timing = 14 frames.

Nana to Popo - Input FThrow on frame 1, throw initiates on frame 6 due to Nana's delay. Input Grab on frame 24. Grab connects on frame 29. Timing = 24 frames.

It's a difference of 10 frames, easily noticeable to anyone. The difference is 10 frames regardless of the throw or victim in question. Compared to the hypothetical "Popo passing to Popo", regrabbing in Popo to Nana is always 5 frames early. In the same comparison, Nana to Popo is always 5 frames late. These are of course the earliest/perfect timings possible, in practice you usually get a good 4 or more frames of leeway unless the victim is at obscenely high percentages.

Incidentally, FThrow frame data is the same on all characters, but again, this example can be applied to any throw on any character (barring UThrow, obviously).

Thanks a lot. That's what I thought.

 

[yoshq]

i recently learned how to do back/down cg and now i wanna try using icies in tournament against a mk, so what should i know? like how do you do that jump down b desynced walking forward? and what chars does the back/down work on?

 

[-LzR-]

Don't ever play a serious match with IC unless you are really good. Being able to CG doesn't help you. You will lose the first match even against a Ganon.

 

[ch33s3]

i recently learned how to do back/down cg and now i wanna try using icies in tournament against a mk, so what should i know? like how do you do that jump down b desynced walking forward? and what chars does the back/down work on?

I'm gonna try to be nice here. Desynch and short hop while moving forward to do an advancing blizzard wall. Back/down works on every character. You will not beat a competent MK based on your CGs.

 

[yoshq]

yes, but how do you desync. and what i mean is, what chars does the back work where you just have to press back/grab really fast. and thanks for being nice.

 

[toobusytocare]

light characters,
falco, pikachu, MK, marth, fox, etc.

 

[EverAlert]

er, I wouldn't really put pika and marth in the light list

more like falco/fox/mk/kirby/g&w/zzs/etc, also jiggs is a bit different and stupidly precise

but once you get used to it it's all the same unless they're like... bowser or somthing.

 

[shadyf0o]

yes, but how do you desync. and what i mean is, what chars does the back work where you just have to press back/grab really fast. and thanks for being nice.

Chain grabs work on all characters my friend. There is a guide on how to desync in the stickies on top of the main IC board. There are many ways. Use the guides man. I wouldn't recommend using your ICs in a tournament yet. I can Chain Grab most of the cast to death and I still have trouble in tournaments with Ice Climbers. Chain-grabs don't help if you can't get the grab, and you won't get the grab on a good player if you are inexperienced. Even if you do get a grab, you are not used to people furiously trying to break out of them (you need to CG much faster). Congratz on learning how to CG. I have also just recently figured it out. But, I've learned that you can't depend on your CGs to win. Learn everything about the climbers if you want to win. The guides in the stickies have everything you need to know.

I'll tell you a few easy ways to desync to get you started.

Roll Backward: If you press back and shield at the same time (approximately), the climbers will roll if different directions. From there just start jumping and down-bing in a rhythmic manner.

Stutter Step (the one I use the most): Dash backwards, then immediately smash in the direction you originally faced (use the joystick to charge the smash). If you do it right, you won't dash. Popo will turn around to smash, and as he's charging his smash attack, Nana will dash-attack in front of popo. At that point, you are desynced. If you side-b after that, only one climber will do it, and you can down-b with the remaining climber.

Up-b: Just use up-b

Jab: If you connect your jabs with people, it desyncs them sometimes.

Ledge: If you press A on the ledge, they attack separately and are desynced.

I'm a new IC player. These are just some really simple ways that I use. There might be more effective/efficient ways
to desync (don't hesitate to let me know IC mains, lol). Find what works for you in the desync guide.

Question: Where should I post my videos if I want them to be critiqued?

 

[r3d d09]

in the video thread.

 

[toobusytocare]

marth is lighter than falco IIRC, and pika (and marth) have the same bthrow timing as the rest of them

also @ shadyf0o, those are all unsafe/situational ways to desync

just learn the dash dance desync, pivot desync, and/or the kakera desync (dash backwards>dash forwards>any action, usually shield)