Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[Dre89]

Lee is the definition of an overloaded kit >_>.

He's cancerous because in spite of being fun and interesting with a crazy high skill ceiling, he's suffocating to the jungle.

And let's be perfectly honest, prior to the nerf his lategame scaling was STILL very strong due to the insane utility in the kit, he had no tradeoffs besides lategame damage. What the nerf does is means he doesn't have quite that insane level of lategame scaling.

And as a jungler, your counterplay was basically "don't be there when lee sin is there" unless you were elise where you could potentially 2/2 or 1v1 him, everyone else lee counterganked or met in the jungle was done if lee was competent. The only reason Eve worked was because stealth meant she could completely avoid him much better then anyone else.

And that base damage on his ult, combined with it's CD and the knockback, insane.

I don't think Lee's kit is overloaded to the point of obnoxiousness like Kayle's or Yasuo's because he doesn't scale and at least there's counterplay to his kit.

Lees that live in your jungle are annoying I admit, although personally I find counter-jungling to be inefficient uness yoou're taking a buff. Of course entering their jungle is worth if you kill the jungler though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

How are either of those champions overloaded kits compared to Lee.

 

[Zano]

is it really this hard for someone to understand how ****ing ridiculous lee sin is? Your only arguments are just supporting further how dumb he is

 

[Shaya]

The amount of kills I've gotten invading Lee Sins as Shaco.
Point? Meh, Elise seemed a lot more toxic in early game scenarios for most of the junglers I play. I know both have stifled the jungle for a long long time now. The amount of things in his kit obviously made him extremely potent than most characters at levels 1, 2, and 3, but I think that has a lot to do with his lack of resource management issues (Elise essentially is in the same boat... resourceless jungler early game with more abilities in their kits earlier than others). It's the combination of the two that have made them both so low-risk high-consistency junglers. With Lee Sin it's really complicated, his resource management is what makes him bad late game, but with Elise there just isn't those drawbacks, Spider form is way too ****ing good.

Shaco can't really do either of that **** because he runs out of mana/resources before and during any attempt he could make. Most junglers suffer the same thing. Nunu, who effectivelly cannot kill you, can't walk into the enemy jungle and Q/W/E to ruin their day without actually putting himself behind/potentially making him need to back before he can continue to jungle or apply pressure elsewhere, no such scenario for Lee/Elise.

Tl;dr the reason why Jungle/Top have been toxic in any way and for so long is due to Riot's terrible implementation/balance decisions towards resource management. Lee doesn't need mid/late game nerfs more than he needs to actually have an early game draw back to his resourcelessness. The point Lee stops being potent is when he stops being able to reliably use his passive, make his passive less overbearingly overpowered on Lee early game (because his energy costs at this point are actually extreme, to the point of really hurting him late game) so his dueling isn't completely free/onesided no matter what. Elise being able to have two kits, one of which is manaless and more potent than other character's entire kits is why she's such a massive ***** (her blink shouldn't be resourceless at the least).
The continual nerfs to blue buff mana regen due to mids has annihilated most mana-using jungler's early games

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't think Lee's kit is overloaded to the point of obnoxiousness like Kayle's or Yasuo's because he doesn't scale and at least there's counterplay to his kit.

Lees that live in your jungle are annoying I admit, although personally I find counter-jungling to be inefficient uness yoou're taking a buff. Of course entering their jungle is worth if you kill the jungler though.

"Lee doesn't scale" is one of the most annoying myths in league >_>, "I have a shield, an extremely strong catch tool that doubles as one of the strongest disengages in the game (that's also on a 60 second CD), and an aoe AS slow, and an execute for neutral monster control, but trust me I totally don't scale into lategame well!".

Ya no. Lee's damage falls off but his utility is absolutely ridiculous so he scales extremely well. The fact that there's counterplay to parts of his kit (namely q'ing in) doesn't change the fact that his kit is overloaded as hell and scales insanely well, and furthermore the fact that meeting him in the jungle has basically no counterplay.

You find it inefficent because you're wrong, it deprives your enemy of resources while at the same time farming, if you're capable of outdueling the enemy jungler that is, and half the point of it is when you're the stronger duelist you deprive your enemy of the resources and if they try to contest or worse, you catch them when they're on something, they're dead.

The amount of kills I've gotten invading Lee Sins as Shaco.
Point? Meh, Elise seemed a lot more toxic in early game scenarios for most of the junglers I play.

Shaco is just stupid and nobody knows how to play against a shaco who knows what the hell they're doing anymore, but at least if shaco doesn't snowball he falls off. Lee doesn't, he just changes roles.

 

[Dre89]

Adumbrodeus- It probably depends on the style of jungling you have. I normally play tanky utility junglers, so I often don't care about having my small camps taken because I don't powerfarm the jungle and normally rely on making an impact with early-game pressure. Normally when they're taking my wraiths I'm busy killing their mid laner or setting up vision around dragon. I'd much rather them counterjungle me than gank a lane or take dragon, because one successful gank or dragon is worth a ton of counterjungling. On tanks like Nautilus I pretty much only do camps when my smite is up because it's inefficient to do them without it. What I'm more worried about is that Lee killing me when I happen to do a camp.

is it really this hard for someone to understand how ****ing ridiculous lee sin is? Your only arguments are just supporting further how dumb he is

There's no need to get angry at me for being one of millions of people who think Lee is not cancerous and doesn't need to change. I doubt you'd react like that to a pro if they said he wasn't cancerous.

Sinister- Kayle has literally everything in her kit. She has burst, DPS, range, and waveclear. On top of that she has utility in the form of resistance shredding heals, mobility and invincibility. She has pretty much everything, scales incredibly well and isn't a particularly mechanically intensive champion to play. Yasuo just gets so much stats for free. A free shield, double crit, resourceless, a spell which procs on-hits effects, and 50% armour pen on his ult. You could remove a few of those and he'd still be a strong champ due to the nature of his kit.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i got 34 kills in an aram as AP Lee Sin

he is clearly overpowered

nerf please

 

[Shaya]

But AP lee sin is actually broken though... > starting item revolver
Gunblade/Lich Bane. Don't tell me you aren't going to win against anything with the same amount of gold.

Was my favourite build on Lee in dominion. CDR was so easy to itemise, gold was so easy to come by, spell vamp makes everything better.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

But AP lee sin is actually broken though... > starting item revolver
Gunblade/Lich Bane. Don't tell me you aren't going to win against anything with the same amount of gold.

Was my favourite build on Lee in dominion. CDR was so easy to itemise, gold was so easy to come by, spell vamp makes everything better.

I went Gunblade/Liandry's/Abyssal/Hydra/Lucidity Boots

 

[Dre89]

Funny thing is you can build AP on any champion in the game and even if they don't have AP ratios they can still do damage with items like Lich Bane and Nashor's Tooth.

 

[Dooms]

What are people's thoughts on new Sona? I love her to death and I'm wondering if I should use her to finish up my support trio with Morg & Nami, so I'd love to hear opinions from players that are way better than me lmao.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adumbrodeus- It probably depends on the style of jungling you have. I normally play tanky utility junglers, so I often don't care about having my small camps taken because I don't powerfarm the jungle and normally rely on making an impact with early-game pressure. Normally when they're taking my wraiths I'm busy killing their mid laner or setting up vision around dragon. I'd much rather them counterjungle me than gank a lane or take dragon, because one successful gank or dragon is worth a ton of counterjungling. On tanks like Nautilus I pretty much only do camps when my smite is up because it's inefficient to do them without it. What I'm more worried about is that Lee killing me when I happen to do a camp.

He's literally the biggest reason why tanky junglers don't work in the meta, He kills you at your 2nd buff or takes it if you're too slow, grabs the big one of your small camps, you're slow at killing the enemy laner so you get destroyed at the 2v2 when he counterganks you.

See what you're missing is he gets to do all this while hurting laners more then you do because tanks have super slow early clears and don't have THAT much ganking threat without their ult, since their damage is low it's all about the lockdown. Delayed level 6 = less successful ganks = more time for lee to put his laners ahead.


I also find it amusing that you consider taking camps and killing you separate objectives, he's hoping he catches you in the jungle so he can kill you, taking the camp so he makes money and delays your levels is the consolation prize.

 

[Z'zgashi]

New Sona's W is insane.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes, sona W is awesome

 

[Sinister Slush]

Lee has Attack speed increase from passive when he uses abilities along with refunding energy
Q reveals the enemy and does % damage on the 2nd cast while being almost a 1.0 ad ratio, if really wanna count both than almost 2.0
W shields him/other things and if used on ally or himself CD reduced to half, while 2nd ability giving Lifesteal and spellvamp
E Reveals and does magic damage while slowing and before this patches nerf, Attack speed which made him able to 1v1 ad at any time in the game not named trist or kogmaw
R is a kick that makes you airborne and can hit others up too while having a 2.0 AD ratio

Kayle passive is MR/Armor shred if hitting them with autos
Q is a slow that gives a stack of passive
W is a heal that also gives movement speed
E gives her the ability to have range and has splash damage that's not very strong now after all the nerfs, even with the buff in this patch.
R makes somebody invincible

Yasuo Passive is double crit chance while having a shield if maxed.
Q can proc on hit stuff, knock up on third cast either ranged or melee, cooldown lowered based on attack speed
W is a ****** ability that blocks literally everything while passive gives him full shield during ult
E lets him dash, while using multiple makes the next stronger
R keeps them airborne a second longer if an ability knocks them up while giving armor pen

Look at this dre. Just typing up Lee's and I feel like I gained weight just from how bloated his kit is compared to the other two.

 

[Dre89]

Sinister- Like I said, Lee's stacked kit is balanced by requiring a higher level of mechanical proficiency to use and also not scaling. Champs like Kayle get a ton of utility whilst being strong at all stages of the game.

He's literally the biggest reason why tanky junglers don't work in the meta, He kills you at your 2nd buff or takes it if you're too slow, grabs the big one of your small camps, you're slow at killing the enemy laner so you get destroyed at the 2v2 when he counterganks you.

See what you're missing is he gets to do all this while hurting laners more then you do because tanks have super slow early clears and don't have THAT much ganking threat without their ult, since their damage is low it's all about the lockdown. Delayed level 6 = less successful ganks = more time for lee to put his laners ahead.


I also find it amusing that you consider taking camps and killing you separate objectives, he's hoping he catches you in the jungle so he can kill you, taking the camp so he makes money and delays your levels is the consolation prize.

I never said he wasn't good, or that he wasn't top 3 in terms of junglers. Also tanks like Naut and Rammus have amazing ganks pre6. I play Naut a lot and I'd say he's probably top 5 in the game in terms of pre6 ganks if you know how to manage your CC properly. He can gank at 3 (or even 2 with red buff if you like to roll the dice) and by the time you've ganked your smite will be up for your next camp. I try to circumvent the slow clear issue by only farming when my smite is up, and trying to do something else when it's down (eg. gank or ward). This is only efficient on champs like Naut though, who is a good ganker without his ult and isn't as gold-dependent as most carry junglers.

Just to clarify, I know that bruiser junglers like Lee are generally better than tanks, because they have a similar level of gank potency but also do a ton more damage. I'm just saying that I don't thik Lee is cancerous. You can still do well with tanks if you play to their strengths. Tank junglers have won tons of games against Lees and the like at the highest levels of play.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sinister- Like I said, Lee's stacked kit is balanced by requiring a higher level of mechanical proficiency to use and also not scaling. Champs like Kayle get a ton of utility whilst being strong at all stages of the game.

Lack of scaling doesn't define a kit and yasuo similarly requires mechanical proficiency to make the most use out of his kit due to the way his dash is designed.

Also, Lee sin scales really well, he just switched from assassin to tanky dps/support.

I never said he wasn't good, or that he wasn't top 3 in terms of junglers. Also tanks like Naut and Rammus have amazing ganks pre6. I play Naut a lot and I'd say he's probably top 5 in the game in terms of pre6 ganks if you know how to manage your CC properly. He can gank at 3 (or even 2 with red buff if you like to roll the dice) and by the time you've ganked your smite will be up for your next camp. I try to circumvent the slow clear issue by only farming when my smite is up, and trying to do something else when it's down (eg. gank or ward). This is only efficient on champs like Naut though, who is a good ganker without his ult and isn't as gold-dependent as most carry junglers.

Just to clarify, I know that bruiser junglers like Lee are generally better than tanks, because they have a similar level of gank potency but also do a ton more damage. I'm just saying that I don't thik Lee is cancerous. You can still do well with tanks if you play to their strengths. Tank junglers have won tons of games against Lees and the like at the highest levels of play.

Rammus is a bit of an exception given that his gank potential is based on leveling up his taunt, he doesn't gain a super CC at 6. Also teleport/homeguard cheese. Nautilus, really isn't, if they're playing super overextended he can but because his damage contribution is really low, the enemy laner goes down really slowly. This leaves you open to counterganks and because lee contributes a lot more damage if you get counterganked you lose the 2v2 flat out. His gank paths pre-6 are also a lot more predictable and easy to ward against.

His 6 gives him a targeted powerful CC which substantially opens up what conditions in a lane he can gank from, plus is a massive amount of knockup and actually gives damage negation.

The only way what you're suggesting works is if laners routinely super overextend, otherwise you'll get super punished in terms of pressure for your super late leveling, because while they're not gold dependent, tank junglers are quite level dependent, as in it's important to their CC and durability.

Yes they have, but no setup is 100%, there are countermeasures but they generally involve your team being better coordinated and stronger in the earlygame. That said at the highest levels of play tank junglers beat lee less now then before, because the jungle itemization changed to favor bruiser junglers and the jungle itself is more valuable and is less dangerous.

 

[Dre89]

Lack of scaling doesn't define a kit and yasuo similarly requires mechanical proficiency to make the most use out of his kit due to the way his dash is designed.

Also, Lee sin scales really well, he just switched from assassin to tanky dps/support.



Rammus is a bit of an exception given that his gank potential is based on leveling up his taunt, he doesn't gain a super CC at 6. Also teleport/homeguard cheese. Nautilus, really isn't, if they're playing super overextended he can but because his damage contribution is really low, the enemy laner goes down really slowly. This leaves you open to counterganks and because lee contributes a lot more damage if you get counterganked you lose the 2v2 flat out. His gank paths pre-6 are also a lot more predictable and easy to ward against.

His 6 gives him a targeted powerful CC which substantially opens up what conditions in a lane he can gank from, plus is a massive amount of knockup and actually gives damage negation.

The only way what you're suggesting works is if laners routinely super overextend, otherwise you'll get super punished in terms of pressure for your super late leveling, because while they're not gold dependent, tank junglers are quite level dependent, as in it's important to their CC and durability.

Yes they have, but no setup is 100%, there are countermeasures but they generally involve your team being better coordinated and stronger in the earlygame. That said at the highest levels of play tank junglers beat lee less now then before, because the jungle itemization changed to favor bruiser junglers and the jungle itself is more valuable and is less dangerous.

Naut can gank lanes that aren't superextended at level 3, you just have to play it properly. If they as much as try to trade or try CS a caster minion when you're there flash-passive is basically a kill if they don't have a dash, and it's at least a flash on someone with a dash. Sometime if you''re ganking a melee top laner you might not even need to flash to get your passive on them, but it really depends on the situation.

Naut actually does a lot of damage in early ganks because he has good base damages. I also run 26 AP in my runes to maximise the potency of my early ganks, as I'm going to itemise for MR anyway. The reason why he's not a good duelist early is because his damage is tied to his shield, which can get popped quickly. In a gank however it's unlikely to get popped so if you manage your CC properly you'll do a lot of damage.

He's pretty good in 2v2s as well, but if only if he's paired with a strong laner. He has a lot of CC for low levels, and he has a high damage output with his W if he doesn't get focused. If they do focus him to pop the shield your laner will benefit from that. That's why he needs a strong laner for 2v2s though, because otherwise they can just focus him to pop his shield without much penalty.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nauts 0.5 second snare is terrifying

in other news:

 

[jaswa]

Naut can gank lanes that aren't superextended at level 3, you just have to play it properly. If they as much as try to trade or try CS a caster minion when you're there flash-passive is basically a kill if they don't have a dash, and it's at least a flash on someone with a dash. Sometime if you''re ganking a melee top laner you might not even need to flash to get your passive on them, but it really depends on the situation.
Naut actually does a lot of damage in early ganks because he has good base damages. I also run 26 AP in my runes to maximise the potency of my early ganks, as I'm going to itemise for MR anyway. The reason why he's not a good duelist early is because his damage is tied to his shield, which can get popped quickly. In a gank however it's unlikely to get popped so if you manage your CC properly you'll do a lot of damage.

He's pretty good in 2v2s as well, but if only if he's paired with a strong laner. He has a lot of CC for low levels, and he has a high damage output with his W if he doesn't get focused. If they do focus him to pop the shield your laner will benefit from that. That's why he needs a strong laner for 2v2s though, because otherwise they can just focus him to pop his shield without much penalty.

Yeah, people can theorycraft all they want, but the facts are in your favour here. I swear every time you nautilus gank mid, Jez gets first blood or you get a flash and you kill them afterwards.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

There is an acronym in the Fire Emblem community called "PEMN"

It means

Personal Experience Means Nothing

 

[jaswa]

Lol, but personal experience clearly is in fact relevant.
It's like a scientist still wanting to stick to a theory even though it's disproved empirically. It should cause them to question their theoretical reasoning.

Do people honestly think Naut has bad ganks early? Or was the discussion just on him as a jungler generally..? His ganks are good: at lvl 3, you're going to get off a Q, W auto with passive, E, atleast another auto, all the while red buff. The damage output from all that is actually non-negligible if they're lvl 3ish. As well the CC is insane, so correct follow up by the laner can often kill them.

 

[BSL]

Your sample size is absurdly small.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ jaswa , are you sure you're married to the right person?

 

[Dre89]

Ok so let's discredit everything anyone has ever said in this thread because personal experience means nothing and our sample sizes are all too small.

There is an acronym in the Fire Emblem community called "PEMN"

It means

Personal Experience Means Nothing

Considering that I was consistently getting succesfull ganks in ranked 5s on gold-diamonds I don't really care if it 'means nothing' on paper because I know that in reality it works at every level of play. In 2013 All Stars Naut got first blood with a level 3 gank top lane.

I don't really care the theorycraft behind it not working seeing as not only have I got it to work consistently, but it's also worked at the highest levels of play too.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Mecha Malphite.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Mecha Malphite.

Haven't seen it. Is it also a really poorly made cheeseburger?

 

[Dre89]

Is the idea with Gnaw that his mini and mega forms each have their own strengths and weaknesses, or is the mega form strictly superior in every way like Shyv's dragon form. Judging by the fact that you have limited control over when you can activate the mega form I'm gonna assume it's supposed to b strictly superior.

 

[jaswa]

Lol Aero, do you have anything of substance to say with respect to the discussion?

And yeah dre, that's what I was thinking... It's not just silver trash you're ganking, but the plats/diamonds/challengers that Jez pulls.

I really want to see someone object to "I don't really care the theorycraft behind it not working seeing as not only have I got it to work consistently, but it's also worked at the highest levels of play too." lol...

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mini Gnaw is ranged mobility, mega Gnaw is immobile cc heavy tank. Trick is to activate mega Gnaw as you jump is with Mini Gnaw.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is the idea with Gnaw that his mini and mega forms each have their own strengths and weaknesses, or is the mega form strictly superior in every way like Shyv's dragon form. Judging by the fact that you have limited control over when you can activate the mega form I'm gonna assume it's supposed to b strictly superior.

The changes between Mega and mini are as follows:

Small Gnar:

+10 movement speed at level one and +1 per level until level 10 then +2 per level,
+250 range at level 1 and 6 per level
+5% attack speed per level

Big Gnar:

+70 HP at level 1 and +30 per level
Armor / MR +2 per level
+3 Health regen per 5 seconds per level,
+6 base attack damage at level one and 2 per level

Edit:

Also

Spoiler: Arcade Miss Fortune

 

[BSL]

GP is pissed that he lost

 

[Dre89]

So mini is suppose to be some kind of ADC then? In theory he seems like a really broken top laner. ADCs are the best top laners in the game but often aren't picked top because the team normally requires a tank/bruiser. But if I'm reading this right Gnaw could have the lane dominance of an ADC then transition into a tank for teamfights and be the hero that Gotham deserves. I suppose it depends on how much control he has over his mega form.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Transformation to mega gnar is forced, so you can't really play ADC Gnar.

Probably won't stop people from trying though.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Naut can gank lanes that aren't superextended at level 3, you just have to play it properly. If they as much as try to trade or try CS a caster minion when you're there flash-passive is basically a kill if they don't have a dash, and it's at least a flash on someone with a dash. Sometime if you''re ganking a melee top laner you might not even need to flash to get your passive on them, but it really depends on the situation.
Naut actually does a lot of damage in early ganks because he has good base damages. I also run 26 AP in my runes to maximise the potency of my early ganks, as I'm going to itemise for MR anyway. The reason why he's not a good duelist early is because his damage is tied to his shield, which can get popped quickly. In a gank however it's unlikely to get popped so if you manage your CC properly you'll do a lot of damage.

He's pretty good in 2v2s as well, but if only if he's paired with a strong laner. He has a lot of CC for low levels, and he has a high damage output with his W if he doesn't get focused. If they do focus him to pop the shield your laner will benefit from that. That's why he needs a strong laner for 2v2s though, because otherwise they can just focus him to pop his shield without much penalty.

Ya, it works for you, at your level of play but this isn't aimed at your level of play and frankly not mine either. It's aimed primarily at competitive play and secondarily at the ultratop top tiers of solo queue play. I can give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you regularly manage to pull ganks off on high diamond/challenger players with naut and they're not sandbagging with high diamond/challenger Lee sins on their team that are also not sandbagging, but the fact is that you're able to work is not a reflection on the general populace at top levels of play, because small sample size.

Cause what's usually happening if you can flash AA on a lane that's not overextended is that they didn't ward or ward out far enough. Well or it's a top lane bush gank but the laner has to be able to completely push them in first and that leaves you really open to a lee sin countergank.

As for his damage, I'm sorry but no he has a decent tic on his shield that's super level dependent, the problem being of course that if you're being super safe with your route and only taking camps when your smite is up the damage will be really low relative to laner's HP unless you snowball. But Even if you're around the same, just compare, Lee and Elise's damage with pretty much any laner is enough to pretty much instantly pop the opposing laner. Sorry but no, there's a difference. Same is true of a 2v2, they just put out a lot more a lot faster and easily burst down single targets.

So mini is suppose to be some kind of ADC then? In theory he seems like a really broken top laner. ADCs are the best top laners in the game but often aren't picked top because the team normally requires a tank/bruiser. But if I'm reading this right Gnaw could have the lane dominance of an ADC then transition into a tank for teamfights and be the hero that Gotham deserves. I suppose it depends on how much control he has over his mega form.

Errr no they're not. Low levels ADCs usually get jumped on and eaten by gapclosing bruisers unless they have countermeasures (like quinn's blind against AA bruisers) because they lose a lot of stats for that range.


As far as his control, as he hits with attacks and abilities he fills up a bar, when it's full he transforms. Bar doesn't seem to empty and starts to fill up more on it's own when it's close to top. When he transforms it gradually empties.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Also his auto attack range is absolute garbage, like 400 or something, or so Ive heard at least.

Regardless, I plan on testing him out in the ADC position just to see if it works.

 

[Espy Rose]

Gnar's tantrum or whatever does decrease after time out of battle.

 

[Dre89]

Ya, it works for you, at your level of play but this isn't aimed at your level of play and frankly not mine either. It's aimed primarily at competitive play and secondarily at the ultratop top tiers of solo queue play. I can give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you regularly manage to pull ganks off on high diamond/challenger players with naut and they're not sandbagging with high diamond/challenger Lee sins on their team that are also not sandbagging, but the fact is that you're able to work is not a reflection on the general populace at top levels of play, because small sample size.

Cause what's usually happening if you can flash AA on a lane that's not overextended is that they didn't ward or ward out far enough. Well or it's a top lane bush gank but the laner has to be able to completely push them in first and that leaves you really open to a lee sin countergank.

As for his damage, I'm sorry but no he has a decent tic on his shield that's super level dependent, the problem being of course that if you're being super safe with your route and only taking camps when your smite is up the damage will be really low relative to laner's HP unless you snowball. But Even if you're around the same, just compare, Lee and Elise's damage with pretty much any laner is enough to pretty much instantly pop the opposing laner. Sorry but no, there's a difference. Same is true of a 2v2, they just put out a lot more a lot faster and easily burst down single targets.



Errr no they're not. Low levels ADCs usually get jumped on and eaten by gapclosing bruisers unless they have countermeasures (like quinn's blind against AA bruisers) because they lose a lot of stats for that range.


As far as his control, as he hits with attacks and abilities he fills up a bar, when it's full he transforms. Bar doesn't seem to empty and starts to fill up more on it's own when it's close to top. When he transforms it gradually empties.

Once again, a Naut got first blood with a level 3 gank in 2013 All-Stars. I've seen pros and high elo streamers like Foxdrop get level 3 ganks with Naut numerous times. This the highest level of play we're talking about.

And I'm sorry, but what jungler can pull off a gank on warded lane where the laner isn't overextending? Besides, laners don't keep their lane warded from every single angle 100% of the time, this is why ganks frequently work even in competitive play.

 

[ShroudedOne]

That MF splash is...shameless.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Once again, a Naut got first blood with a level 3 gank in 2013 All-Stars. I've seen pros and high elo streamers like Foxdrop get level 3 ganks with Naut numerous times. This the highest level of play we're talking about.

And I'm sorry, but what jungler can pull off a gank on warded lane where the laner isn't overextending? Besides, laners don't keep their lane warded from every single angle 100% of the time, this is why ganks frequently work even in competitive play.

I didn't suggest that it's always been this way, I'm saying this is how it is now, though Lee has always been overpowering. The jungle changes and the itemization changes I cited have a major role in this, because they allow bruisers to get a decent income, but there's more.

The increase in accessability of wards, if gankers can come from odd angles THEN it becomes practically impossible to ward every approach, this advantages characters that can wall jump, like idk, lee sin and elise. Also characters with stealth because pinks were nerfed.

Then there's also the fact that Lee sins themselves steadily improved, given his insane depth of the character this has been happening for years.

So ya, for these 4 reasons, lee sin now is much more suffocating now then he was in 2013.