Gravity Mod / Brawl+ Competitive Code Suggestions and Analysis

[MBlaze]

This thread needs to be updated and tell us what level of gravity should be used with what level of hitstun.

 

[poklin]

well what i have recommended to a couple ppl who aimed me is 1.165 gravity. 13% hitstun and damage mod (i think) 1.065 this is absolutely amazing me and my friends have been playing it for a couple days now, i would say atleast give this set a try and see how it feels.

 

[Starscream]

I also recommend 1.165x gravity (3F951EB8) with attack ratio mod 1.0625 (3F880000). For histun I've tried with 13% but I thought it was a bit too high. Haven't really tested anything else yet cuz my Wii isn't hooked up but try 12% or 12.5%.

 

[Problem2]

You know, if we had a code that only affected vertical motion (jump and launch distance), we wouldn't even need to tamper with the damage ratio, and the down sides of using gravity would be completely negated.

 

[Starscream]

If only this magical code existed. Until then...

 

[MBlaze]

Someone can request it.

 

[Problem2]

Where do I go to make this request? I've kind of littered all my posts recently with this discussion, hoping someone would put it into consideration.

 

[MBlaze]

No idea, lulz sorry. D: Ask Kupo.

 

[leafgreen386]

*sigh*

This is the perfect thread to post this in, and is something that really needs to be cleared up.

We already have a fall speed modifier. This is called gravity. Why do different characters' jumps get nerfed with gravity? Because they're falling at a set (higher than normal) rate, thus it takes less time for the force of the jump to equal the force of gravity and for the character to fall. Certain upBs seem to ignore gravity, while others are momentum based, and of course, all jumps are momentum based.

From the best that I can tell, when you are launched, the game launches you at a base speed with either a) a linear degeneration or b) a power based degeneration (ie. quadratically). I'm not sure which yet. I'll need to do some testing. Let's assume it degenerates by a linear based reduction for now, though, since that's considerably easier to model. Anyway, when you're in freefall, you're falling a set number of units each frame, modeled by (fall speed) = (character fallspeed variable)(gravity constant). This force is always acting on you when you're in the air. This is important to realize. Regardless of what is pushing you up or down, this is also going to be acting on you, whether you're spiked (so they're adding) or you're jumping (so you're subtracting this value from the jump force). I'm going to refer to the force exerted by gravity as g from here on out.

Now, when you're launched upward, your movement can be modeled by y = f - g units each frame, where f is the force still acting on you that you were launched upward by (or downward, in which case f would be negative). I believe that f gradually decreases each frame, although I am not sure exactly how. Like I said before, I'm going to assume it's a linear degeneration, meaning one possible formula for such would be f = l(c - x), where l is the initial launch speed (or some number before the actual launch speed is calculated as shown in the game), x is the number of frames since being launched, c is a constant, and x cannot be greater than c. I'm not sure, but I think that the developers may have made it so that a character cannot still be carrying force from a launch after a certain number of frames have passed.

Although I pretty much stated the whole issue in the first sentence of the last paragraph, I'll summarize everything here. Characters with no additional upward or downward force acting on them besides gravity will travel at a constant velocity downward (g units). When a character does receive an upward or downward "acceleration" they move a certain number of units each frame, which the number of these units decreases with each frame. The number of units traveled each frame by the force is added to the number of units traveled each frame because of the gravity constant. Since the value of f is decreasing, it will cause characters to appear to be slowing down as they reach the peak of the trajectory, for a brief moment have zero vertical velocity, and then cause characters to appear to accelerate downward while the value of f drops below g. When the value of f has finally reached zero, then characters will continue at a constant velocity downward equal to g, aka freefall.

This is, of course, all speculation, and I'm not really sure how I would go about testing it, but basically, if you've been following what I've been saying, with what I am pretty sure on, you will see that it is very unlikely that there is a way to adjust max fall speed of a character without also changing their "acceleration," thus making the nerfing of jumps and upBs inescapable.

 

[K1T3]

*sigh*

This is the perfect thread to post this in, and is something that really needs to be cleared up.

We already have a fall speed modifier. This is called gravity. Why do different characters' jumps get nerfed with gravity? Because they're falling at a set (higher than normal) rate, thus it takes less time for the force of the jump to equal the force of gravity and for the character to fall. Certain upBs seem to ignore gravity, while others are momentum based, and of course, all jumps are momentum based.

From the best that I can tell, when you are launched, the game launches you at a base speed with either a) a linear degeneration or b) a power based degeneration (ie. quadratically). I'm not sure which yet. I'll need to do some testing. Let's assume it degenerates by a linear based reduction for now, though, since that's considerably easier to model. Anyway, when you're in freefall, you're falling a set number of units each frame, modeled by (fall speed) = (character fallspeed variable)(gravity constant). This force is always acting on you when you're in the air. This is important to realize. Regardless of what is pushing you up or down, this is also going to be acting on you, whether you're spiked (so they're adding) or you're jumping (so you're subtracting this value from the jump force). I'm going to refer to the force exerted by gravity as g from here on out.

Now, when you're launched upward, your movement can be modeled by y = f - g units each frame, where f is the force still acting on you that you were launched upward by (or downward, in which case f would be negative). I believe that f gradually decreases each frame, although I am not sure exactly how. Like I said before, I'm going to assume it's a linear degeneration, meaning one possible formula for such would be f = l(c - x), where l is the initial launch speed (or some number before the actual launch speed is calculated as shown in the game), x is the number of frames since being launched, c is a constant, and x cannot be greater than c. I'm not sure, but I think that the developers may have made it so that a character cannot still be carrying force from a launch after a certain number of frames have passed.

Although I pretty much stated the whole issue in the first sentence of the last paragraph, I'll summarize everything here. Characters with no additional upward or downward force acting on them besides gravity will travel at a constant velocity downward (g units). When a character does receive an upward or downward "acceleration" they move a certain number of units each frame, which the number of these units decreases with each frame. The number of units traveled each frame by the force is added to the number of units traveled each frame because of the gravity constant. Since the value of f is decreasing, it will cause characters to appear to be slowing down as they reach the peak of the trajectory, for a brief moment have zero vertical velocity, and then cause characters to appear to accelerate downward while the value of f drops below g. When the value of f has finally reached zero, then characters will continue at a constant velocity downward equal to g, aka freefall.

This is, of course, all speculation, and I'm not really sure how I would go about testing it, but basically, if you've been following what I've been saying, with what I am pretty sure on, you will see that it is very unlikely that there is a way to adjust max fall speed of a character without also changing their "acceleration," thus making the nerfing of jumps and upBs inescapable.

Yes

Also, from what I can tell. What people want is a code that does 3 things. Increases rate of a fast fall, decreases height of character specific sh of their choosing and takes away the auto fast fall on dairs. This allows jumps to be the same height, normal fall speed to be the same, and uBs to be unaffected.

Though I still think simply increasing gravity is a superior option to that as the above does not offer all of the advantages simply increasing gravity does. That of course if personal opinion as I feel characters are way to floaty and I don't like that you can always make it back to the stage by simple DI alone. Characters should be more edge gauradable and die faster and this game is too slow... blah.

Sorry everyone for still not having updated the first post. I still havn't been able to test all the new things as lately my Wiimotes refuse to work with my Wii and the developers somehow thought it was a wonderful idea to make the only possible way to access your Wii is through a wireless battery powered dildo.... so yeah.... I probably just need to buy new batteries.

I think I'ma go back to testing higher gravities with all the new codes though as everyone that I have let play it has liked 1.25 the best out of the settings and they still say recoveries are better than melee ones.

 

[poklin]

leafgreen are you playing on 1.165? if so what hitstun are you using?

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm currently using normal gravity with hitstun at +.125. I'll be testing +.10 and +.11 when I do reinstate gravity. I'd really rather we sort out the whole hitstun problem on regular gravity first, so we not only know about what we're looking for, but also so as to avoid the massive confusion resulting from different game types.

 

[Problem2]

Well, thanks for clearing up how the forces work / possibly work in Smash Bros, though I was saying that there should be a way to fix this formula. If you increase the constant G (which is done by the gravity code), then you should also have an increase to the variable f. So say, you're using 1.25 gravity, you should revise the formula as y = 1.25f - 1.25g or y = 1.25(f - g). That's the kind of code I'm requesting.

What will this do overall? You'll jump up faster until the point that you reach your maximum height, and then fall faster too. The jump height will stay the same as normal Brawl however. I've been comparing normal Fox's jumping to that of Metal Fox's jumps, and I noticed that the metal form already does this, so it must be possible in some way or another.

 

[K1T3]

Oh yeah I forgot to ask. I know in melee gravity works at least vaguely similar to real gravity where as you keep falling your fall speed increases due to gravity being acceleration. So if you fall from really high up by the time you get to the stage you will be falling faster than if you had simply jumped.

I can't test it right now so that's why I'm asking, is fall speed simply a constant in brawl as leafgreen said, so there is no gravity acceleration affect?

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, there might be acceleration.There might not be. I can't tell with just the human eye to track it. I just tried it with ganon, fox, falco, and kirby on a very large stage in fixed camera mode, so I could watch the falling... I couldn't tell if I was just imagining a change in velocity as they fell or if it wasn't there at all. I'm gonna ask kupo to record different characters falling and to check it frame by frame to see if there is really acceleration. If I'm wrong about this, then it may in fact be possible to separate max fall speed from the other affects of gravity.

@problem2: Yeah, I was just talking with jiangjunizzy about the metal box thing. I'm pretty sure what it's doing is increasing both gravity and jump power by a universal amount for all characters, since most characters' have higher sh's with it than they normally do, while characters with momentum based recoveries receive slight nerfs (bowser and dk), slight improvements (diddy), or big nerfs (sonic). We can probably do the same thing, and just fix sonic's upB specifically to act like it would in normal grav.

 

[Problem2]

You're right. The up-b's do act strange, even when the jumps are enormous. I've also been testing things with the bunny hood, and here is what I found:

- Your fall rate is faster
- Momentum based Up-B's are nerfed like in high gravity mode.
- Upward attacks against a bunny hood character are slightly less effective
(Fox kills Fox with U-smash at 80% w/o bunny hood and 92% w/ bunny hood)
- The time of doing a full jump w/o a bunny hood and a short hop w/ a bunny hood are the same.

 

[leafgreen386]

I have good news and bad news. I was right. The bad news? Well, I was right.

There is no such thing as acceleration in brawl. Kupo tested it (a few days ago, actually - I just forgot to post about it), and characters do indeed fall a set number of units each frame. This means that it will be impossible for us to modify fall speed without nerfing recoveries, unless we also mod the recoveries, as there is only one effect of gravity, rather than there being two components to it as there was in melee (those being acceleration and maximum fall speed). We should be able to mod fast fall speed without any problems, however, since I think that is an additional modifier to your fall speed (it seems to be proportional to the gravity constant).

I believe that the calculation for your vertical momentum is as follows:

x = v - g*s*f

Where x is your vertical positioning relative to the previous frame, v is your current velocity due to attacks, jumping, or otherwise (note this decreases over time), g is the gravity constant, s is each characters' inherent fall speed, and f is the fast fall value, which is 1 normally, and some number greater than 1 we have yet to determine if you're fast falling.

I really would like to see an overall gravity mod in place in brawl+ (not just a fast fall mod), but if we're not going to nerf recoveries, then it's going to take a code that either 1) treats gravity as normal when you're in a double jump or upB or 2) increases overall jump power. The latter already has a precedent in the game in the form of the metal box and bunny hood, and I think would be much preferable to the former. It would be pretty screwed up to go from the apex of your jump, gradually fall down until you run out of force from your jump (note that you still have force from your jump as you begin falling - it's just that you're falling more from gravity than you're rising from your jump), and then all of a sudden start to fall much faster.

edit: I'm gonna link to my post in the hitstun thread from here for anyone who doesn't completely get what the game is doing when calculating your vertical position. That post really would've been more appropriate in this thread, but oh well. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6033551&postcount=1003

 

[MookieRah]

Honestly, I think having faster fast falls would fix a lot of things. We may not need the extra gravity if we have that. We'll just have to wait and see. Hopefully the solution they come up with won't take too many lines of code to fix, but it sounds like it would be a hefty code if they have to fix recoveries.

Characters should be more edge gauradable and die faster and this game is too slow... blah.

While the game is still slower paced than melee, people die fast in Brawl+. Whether you are using Kupo's setup or something more like mine, or a mix, if you have 10% hit stun or more then you can KO people quickly if you know what you are doing. I switched things to 4 stock recently cause of this.

 

[leafgreen386]

Actually, I'm hoping that the jump code won't be much worse than gravity is now (so like 12 lines total for everyone), since the bunny hood and metal box both prove that there is already an ingame modifier for jumps (I'm not sure if this is a multiplicative or an additive property, however it's probably multiplicative). Ideally, this is the same multiplier across the board, and not hardcoded for each character. If it is hardcoded (unlikely) then it will take up significant length, but I highly doubt they would have done that.

I don't think that these items affect upBs (when I mentioned that diddy's upB got slightly better with the metal box I think my eyes were just deceiving me), so those will need to be specifically fixed. Although it is possible that we could actually get a code that causes upBs to treat the gravity constant as 1 but only during the upB animation, which should also be a fairly short code.

 

[MookieRah]

Well even with all those fixed, wouldn't the gravity codes also nerf vertical KOs? I think that's an issue there as well, as horizontal KO's would be buffed due to extra gravity and that makes the nerf to vertical KOs a big deal overall.

 

[leafgreen386]

That would still be an issue. Before, we were talking about something around a 1.165x gravity modifier before, with which vertical KOs are still pretty good (albeit weaker) and manages to make the game much more fluid. It may be worth weakening vertical KOs. Remember that the gravity increase can help characters in other ways, making up for the higher damage they'll need to deal in order to get vertical KOs. So far every character I've played that relies on vertical KOs gains combo ability that offsets the weakened vertical kill moves.

 

[JohnAnon]

Goddammit, no matter how many times I look, I don't see a Brawl+. I still see a Melee 2.0.

Are all the planned codes there just to make Brawl a carbon copy of Melee with more characters? Are the codes there to create dozens of broken 50%+ combos? Do you guys want Melee airdodging just so that you can go back to endless clacking Melee days?

And the absolute dumbest idea anyone has ever thought for Brawl+ was L-Canceling. No, I don't mean that because it reduces aerial lag. I mean that because YOU HAVE TO PRESS THE FRIGGIN BUTTONS TO ACTUALLY L-CANCEL. THAT'S JUST BEYOND ********. IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT IN L-CANCELING, AT LEAST MAKE IT AUTO L-CANCELING.

Look, obviously for gravity, the biggest problem is a few nerfed recoveries. So why not fix the recoveries for them? In account for combos, I'd put in like 1.08-1.09 or something.

For air dodging, I'd rather have a more punishable Brawl airdodge. All Melee airdodge does it degenerate(YOU HEARD ME) Brawl into Melee.

As for possible planned codes, only greater shield stun I support.

 

[Problem2]

So if x = v - g*s*f is the code for vertical placement, we couldn't just slap on a constant multiplyer like 1.25 or so in front of 'x'? We already multiplied gravity via the gravity mod code, and if we increase v by the same amount, you get x = v * 1.25 -g*s*f*1.25, which can be reduced to x = 1.25 (v -g*s*f). In this case you are just multiplying 1.25 to the final product x.

It makes perfect sense in my mind and if I had a USB Gecko, I'd be testing the **** out of this, but I don't. Leafgreen, could you explain to me how the gravity code works right now in Brawl? Is Gravity literally just a constant of 1 that is a placeholder for heavy(1.5) / light(0.5) Brawl or what?

 

[kupo15]

Goddammit, no matter how many times I look, I don't see a Brawl+. I still see a Melee 2.0.

Are all the planned codes there just to make Brawl a carbon copy of Melee with more characters? Are the codes there to create dozens of broken 50%+ combos? Do you guys want Melee airdodging just so that you can go back to endless clacking Melee days?

And the absolute dumbest idea anyone has ever thought for Brawl+ was L-Canceling. No, I don't mean that because it reduces aerial lag. I mean that because YOU HAVE TO PRESS THE FRIGGIN BUTTONS TO ACTUALLY L-CANCEL. THAT'S JUST BEYOND ********. IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT IN L-CANCELING, AT LEAST MAKE IT AUTO L-CANCELING.

Look, obviously for gravity, the biggest problem is a few nerfed recoveries. So why not fix the recoveries for them? In account for combos, I'd put in like 1.08-1.09 or something.

For air dodging, I'd rather have a more punishable Brawl airdodge. All Melee airdodge does it degenerate(YOU HEARD ME) Brawl into Melee.

As for possible planned codes, only greater shield stun I support.

Im not going to argue with you but FYI, there IS an Auto l canceling code. Maybe do some research before making claims like that. I also don't see why your opposed to the ledge nerfs seeing how that won't turn brawl into melee in any way, shape or form...

 

[MookieRah]

For air dodging, I'd rather have a more punishable Brawl airdodge. All Melee airdodge does it degenerate(YOU HEARD ME) Brawl into Melee.

It degenerates Brawl into Melee? It seems you are in support of Brawl+, it's just that you don't want it to be like melee. I will ask you this, if Brawl is so great and melee is so bad, why do we have to hack Brawl into being a good game?

Brawl+ isn't being made for people who want this game to be like Brawl. You guys already have Brawl. Brawl+ is for people who want to play Brawl, but have it be A LOT more competitive. Just cause you don't like melee, that is not a valid reason to not model Brawl+ from melee. Melee was a VERY deep fighter and there were so many options and so much room for improvement. Even M2King said that Melee was so deep that it could have gone on by itself for many more years with people still discovering things. So what is wrong with emulating it?

 

[leafgreen386]

@JohnAnon: I'm not even going to justify that post with a response

So if x = v - g*s*f is the code for vertical placement, we couldn't just slap on a constant multiplyer like 1.25 or so in front of 'x'? We already multiplied gravity via the gravity mod code, and if we increase v by the same amount, you get x = v * 1.25 -g*s*f*1.25, which can be reduced to x = 1.25 (v -g*s*f). In this case you are just multiplying 1.25 to the final product x.

It makes perfect sense in my mind and if I had a USB Gecko, I'd be testing the **** out of this, but I don't. Leafgreen, could you explain to me how the gravity code works right now in Brawl? Is Gravity literally just a constant of 1 that is a placeholder for heavy(1.5) / light(0.5) Brawl or what?

Yeah, you got it right. The gravity constant in regular brawl is 1, in heavy brawl it is 1.5, and I guess in light brawl it's 0.5 (or whatever they made it - I haven't even touched light brawl).

The problem with your idea of multiplying the final result by 1.25 (or whatever we make it) is that, well... I'll grab my model from the other thread for sake of ease.

Basically, if your jump has an initial launch power of 6 units per frame (upf) which then causes your vertical position to increase by 6 - x upf each frame (where x is the number of frames since beginning the jump and cannot exceed the initial jump force), and gravity causes your vertical positioning to drop by 2 upf, then your vertical positioning each frame can be illustrated as such (x in the following is the vertical displacement from the start point):

x(frame number) = previous x + jump force - gravity

x0 = you're on the ground
x1 = 0 + 6 - 2 = 4
x2 = 4 + 5 - 2 = 7
x3 = 7 + 4 - 2 = 9
x4 = 9 + 3 - 2 = 10
x5 = 10 + 2 - 2 = 10
x6 = 10 + 1 - 2 = 9
x7 = 9 + 0 - 2 = 7
x8 = 7 + 0 - 2 = 5
x9 = 5 + 0 - 2 = 3
x10 = 3 + 0 - 2 = 1
x11 = you're on the ground againn

Now, if the x value was multiplied by 1.25, we'd basically end up with an infinite rising jump:

x0 = you're on the ground
x1 =5/4 (0 + 6 - 2) = 5
x2 = 5/4 (5 + 5 - 2) = 10
x3 = 5/4 (10 + 4 - 2) = 15
x4 = 5/4 (15 + 3 - 2) = 20
x5 = 5/4 (20 + 2 - 2) = 25
x6 = 5/4 (25 + 1 - 2) = 30
x7 = 5/4 (30 + 0 - 2) = 35
x8+ = continually increasing

As you can see, we can't just randomly attach a multiplier to x and expect it to work out. I know these aren't the real values that the game uses, but multiplying the final x value by any number will always result in you rising (and if it doesn't, the time spent on rising and falling from the jump will be vastly disproportionate). What you need to do is multiply the initial v value by a certain amount while modifying gravity. Whether we're modding the degeneration itself or the base v, it doesn't matter, as both should result in what we need with some tweaking.

Starting with a base v of 7 instead of 6 (with the same degeneration), while using heavy gravity (1.5x, so you're falling 3 units each frame in my example):

x0 = you're on the ground
x1 = 0 + 7 - 3 = 4
x2 = 4 + 6 - 3 = 7
x3 = 7 + 5 - 3 = 9
x4 = 9 + 4 - 3 = 10
x5 = 10 + 3 - 3 = 10
x6 = 10 + 2 - 3 = 9
x7 = 9 + 1 - 3 = 7
x8 = 7 + 0 - 3 = 4
x9 = 4 + 0 - 3 = 1
x10 = you're on the ground again

Conveniently this works out very similar to my original example, except it lets you land one frame sooner, so it shows very well how we could speed up ground to air and back to ground again while retaining similar jump heights. Just an fyi, in regular brawl it takes mario 21 or so frames to complete a sh, so this example is considerably shorter than what the game would use to calculate your ground to air to ground again, and the units I use are also considerably larger (I believe that the launch speed in the game refers to how many units you traveled in the first frame of knockback, meaning the units this game uses are very very small).

That said... I've come to rethink my opinion on gravity. We need to have the vertical modifier affect knockback, as well, if we do implement it. I tried playing with gravity for a bit yesterday, and it seemed to break too many things to make it worthwhile. Hitstun fixed a lot of the problems that gravity would (except for fluidity, which is why I'd still like to see some sort of gravity mod in place), so when I started playing with gravity again, the stuff it broke became a lot more prominent.

So essentially what we would need to make gravity worthwhile is:
1) base jump force modifier
2) damage ratio modifier only affecting the vertical component of knockback
3) specific upB fixes for momentum based upBs

We know #1 is possible from the bunny hood and metal box. I'm almost positive that #2 will be possible since all forces in this game are broken into two components - vertical and horizontal. And #3 should also be possible, since it's just modifying another force value.

 

[MookieRah]

Leafgreen, you are one thorough mofo. If anyone can figure this out, I'm sure you could. Good luck on that.

 

[Problem2]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood your formula. How about this then?

Normal Brawl
x0 = you're on the ground
x1 = 0 + 6 - 2 = 4
x2 = 4 + 5 - 2 = 7
x3 = 7 + 4 - 2 = 9
x4 = 9 + 3 - 2 = 10
x5 = 10 + 2 - 2 = 10
x6 = 10 + 1 - 2 = 9
x7 = 9 + 0 - 2 = 7
x8 = 7 + 0 - 2 = 5
x9 = 5 + 0 - 2 = 3
x10 = 3 + 0 - 2 = 1
x11 = you're on the ground again

Edited Formula
x0 = you're on the ground
x1 = 0 +1.5( 6 - 3) = 4.5
x2 = 4.5 + 1.5(5 - 3) = 7.5
x3 = 7.5 + 1.5(4 - 3) = 9
x4 = 9 + 1.5(3 - 3) = 9
x5 = 9 + 1.5(2 - 3) = 7.5
x6 = 7.5 + 1.5(1 - 3) = 4.5
x7 = 4.5 + 1.5(0 - 3) = 0
x8 = you're on the ground again

In my example. you don't necessarily reach the full height of 10, but that's only because I wanted to choose simple numbers. To reach the perfect height of ten, you have to use a multiplier of 5/3. Anyways, it's still better than this:

Current Gravity code:
x0 = you're on the ground
x1 = 0 + 6 - 3 = 3
x2 = 3 + 5 - 3 = 5
x3 = 5 + 4 - 3 = 6
x4 = 6 + 3 - 3 = 6
x5 = 6 + 2 - 3 = 5
x6 = 5 + 1 - 3 = 3
x7 = 3 + 0 - 3 = 3
x8 = you're on the ground again

As here, vertical rise is greatly nerfed, and the only adjustment to it is to use normal gravity.

EDIT: nvm. It's a good basis, but it only adjusts to jump height. Making it match jump height would actually make vertical KOs stronger. =( I'll keep this posted to see if it brews up any other ideas

 

[leafgreen386]

Wow. I feel like an idiot. The way the game handles vertical "momentum degeneration" is incredibly simple. I just used the gravity modifier to test how the game handles momentum degeneration. Momentum degeneration is just the effect of gravity, even though a character's terminal velocity is equal to the force of gravity on them.

._.

So yeah... you can read all about my findings here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6054713&postcount=459

edit: No, problem2. I had it wrong. It's actually something more like this:

Force of grav = 2, jump force = 9, x = distance you're sent each frame

x = previous x + v - g

previous x cannot be less than 0

x0 = you're on the ground
x1 = 0 + 9 - 2 = 7 (total displacement = 7)
x2 = 7 - 2 = 5 (total displacement = 12)
x3 = 5 - 2 = 3 (total displacement = 15)
x4 = 5 - 2 = 1 (total displacement = 16)
x5 = 1 - 2 = -1 (total displacement= 15)
x6 = 0 - 2 = -2 (total displacement = 13)
x7 = 0 - 2 = -2 (total displacement = 11)
x8 = 0 - 2 = -2 (total displacement = 9)
x9 = 0 - 2 = -2 (total displacement = 7)
x10 = 0 - 2 = -2 (total displacement = 5)
x11 = 0 - 2 = -2 (total displacement = 3)
x12 = 0 - 2 = -2 (total displacement = 1)
x13 = you're on the ground

 

[Pi]

A modified brawl is going to be no more accepted than melee these days

 

[MuBa]

A modified brawl is going to be no more accepted than melee these days

Only time will tell. In all honesty people who think Brawl+ is a bad idea and will never be accepted because it's a HACKED game have a very shallow mindset. Their reasoning behind that is the single most stupid thing that prevents new ideas from even becoming a success. Seriously guys, people need to start being more open-minded about things rather than being close-minded about it.

There is nothing absurd in hoping to make a game better by hacking it, it's the dull reasoning against it that is.

 

[Problem2]

EDIT: nevermind. I see the difference between this code and the previous one. So gravity now affects the rate that the hit trajectory decreases in stength up to the point that the hitstun is in effect.

EDIT2: It hadn't been making sense to me why adding a multiplier to the code would cause the overall distance to rise (or possibly never decrease) until I realized that we need to add the multiplier to the reverse derivative (lol, is that even the right term?) of the formula and tag on the multiplier to it. Crap, it's been almost a year since I've taken calculus though. I barely remember how to do that. =(

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

A modified brawl is going to be no more accepted than melee these days

cool we shouldn't worry cuz then melee is still played

 

[MookieRah]

A modified brawl is going to be no more accepted than melee these days

I'm willing to bet some personal pride that over time, Brawl+ will overtake Brawl as a true competitive game. Brawl will still have tournaments, but I think it would be for a more casual audience such as anime conventions and the like, but as more and more people try Brawl+, and the fact that it will be a far deeper game when it's completed (hell it's already far deeper), competitive players will continue to drift over.

Also, on a completely different note, CF isn't quite as good as I've been making him out to be. He has problems with swordsmen (with the exception of Ike), as their attacks just completely out-prioritize CF's everything. He still combos like a crazy man, but getting inside TL and Marth is a ***** and you have to play very carefully. Dunno much about the Link matchup, but I really won't think it would be as rough as TL or Marth.

For most other characters CF's uair has enough priority to work it's way in and keep up combos after the stun wears off. To combo in his other aerials CF can position himself pretty well so if you are experienced in the matchup you could continue combos while avoiding aerials from your opponent.

Kupo will be happy to hear this, but I'm more and more becoming not a big fan of S-canceling. As a CF against a defensive Marth it's a seriously uphill battle to get inside and do some damage. If I try an aerial I get faired, if I try to sneak in a grab it's hella risky, if I actually land a hit on their shield I get grabbed. Blah. I don't think it's broken, but yeah, it's really lame. When the shield stun code comes out I'll gladly switch over to it and drop S-canceling. Hopefully having enough shield stun so that jabs are really effective for harassing shields (like in Melee) can be implemented without having too much shield stun.

I'm looking forward to Magus canceling as well. That is going to be sweet. Phantom Wings, please get your **** together and make this crepe happen!

 

[Problem2]

Ok, I'm tired of editing that post lol.
Okay, so I like your formula Leafgreen, but the problem right now is that it requires you to start from 0 and work your way up frame by frame every time you want something calculated, so I developed a new formula.

x = i - gx > g
i = initial force
g = gravity
x = frame number

So using your example

x0 = you're on ground
x1 = 9 - 2 * 1 = 7 (TD = 7)
x2 = 9 - 2 * 2 = 5 (TD = 12)
x3 = 9 - 2 * 3 = 3 (TD = 15)
x4 = 9 - 2 * 4 = 1 (TD = 16)
x5 = 9 - 2 * 5 = -1 (TD = 15)
x6 = -2 by default (TD = 13)
x7 = etc.

 

[MuBa]

I'm willing to bet some personal pride that over time, Brawl+ will overtake Brawl as a true competitive game. Brawl will still have tournaments, but I think it would be for a more casual audience such as anime conventions and the like, but as more and more people try Brawl+, and the fact that it will be a far deeper game when it's completed (hell it's already far deeper), competitive players will continue to drift over.

Also, on a completely different note, CF isn't quite as good as I've been making him out to be. He has problems with swordsmen (with the exception of Ike), as their attacks just completely out-prioritize CF's everything. He still combos like a crazy man, but getting inside TL and Marth is a ***** and you have to play very carefully. Dunno much about the Link matchup, but I really won't think it would be as rough as TL or Marth.

For most other characters CF's uair has enough priority to work it's way in and keep up combos after the stun wears off. To combo in his other aerials CF can position himself pretty well so if you are experienced in the matchup you could continue combos while avoiding aerials from your opponent.

Kupo will be happy to hear this, but I'm more and more becoming not a big fan of S-canceling. As a CF against a defensive Marth it's a seriously uphill battle to get inside and do some damage. If I try an aerial I get faired, if I try to sneak in a grab it's hella risky, if I actually land a hit on their shield I get grabbed. Blah. I don't think it's broken, but yeah, it's really lame. When the shield stun code comes out I'll gladly switch over to it and drop S-canceling. Hopefully having enough shield stun so that jabs are really effective for harassing shields (like in Melee) can be implemented without having too much shield stun.

I'm looking forward to Magus canceling as well. That is going to be sweet. Phantom Wings, please get your **** together and make this crepe happen!

Did I ever tell you how much I love you right now? I am so glad people like you have a powerful mindset about Brawl+ being a success. We just need to show more people about this and the only way to do it is to present in tournaments.

 

[MookieRah]

I was pro Brawl modding ever since I heard it was possible. Back then the SBR was saying stuff like "There is no way that we could have modded game tournaments that force you to hack your wii." Me and like 3 other guys were like "BUT IT'S A SOFT MOD!!!" I honestly lost hope with Brawl and started doing other stuff, but the moment I found out that the SBR was testing Brawl+ I came back just to do my best to promote it. For some of the people in the SBR that actually tried it, they **** themselves, and many said that Brawl+ had completely ruined Brawl for them.

The thing is, look at all the people that are hard at work trying to make this into a better game. Look at all the people following and discussing it. It's a decently large group of people so far. We aren't even done with it either. There are still lots of codes that haven't been created that we will use for tournaments, the game is still evolving. I think even more people will be on board once we have something that is considered finished.

Plus, you have to think about how awesome this whole project is. Considering that a lot of sequels lately dumb their games down to sell to more casual players, we came together as a group and gave Sakurai a perverbial middle finger and we began to change the game into the game we wanted. That has NEVER been done to console game before, and I don't think anyone has modded any game to the extent we are doing right now to make a tournament version (more or less what we are doing). It's so radical that anyone who says it is impossible has no idea what they are talking about. Like you said earlier Muba, most people are naysaying because it's never been done before.

Brawl+ has a bright future. I hope it completely overtakes Brawl. I want it to have a huge scene. I want it to spread throughout all of the smash communities. I want Sakurai to take notice, as well as Nintendo, so they can make a game that is good for everyone and not mostly casual gamers. Melee was like that, and really people dislike Melee so much now because when Brawl was announced everyone swarmed to the smashboards and they got jaded by the tournament mindset. They don't hate melee, they hate competitive play, and they are projecting that onto Melee.

 

[plasmatorture]

Nintendo has definitley taken some note of the homebrew channel, given their attempts to remove it with 3.4 and such, but I doubt they've noticed much about us (yet). There's an (unfortuantley) strong connection with less-than-legal uses for softmodding Wiis, so I feel as a community with Brawl+, if we want Nintendo's attention and the general populace's acceptance, that we have to very strongly distance ourselves from the unsavory things Wii modding can be used for.

Still, I agree with your sentiments completley, MookieRah.

 

[kupo15]

I was pro Brawl modding ever since I heard it was possible. Back then the SBR was saying stuff like "There is no way that we could have modded game tournaments that force you to hack your wii." Me and like 3 other guys were like "BUT IT'S A SOFT MOD!!!" I honestly lost hope with Brawl and started doing other stuff, but the moment I found out that the SBR was testing Brawl+ I came back just to do my best to promote it. For some of the people in the SBR that actually tried it, they **** themselves, and many said that Brawl+ had completely ruined Brawl for them.

The thing is, look at all the people that are hard at work trying to make this into a better game. Look at all the people following and discussing it. It's a decently large group of people so far. We aren't even done with it either. There are still lots of codes that haven't been created that we will use for tournaments, the game is still evolving. I think even more people will be on board once we have something that is considered finished.

Plus, you have to think about how awesome this whole project is. Considering that a lot of sequels lately dumb their games down to sell to more casual players, we came together as a group and gave Sakurai a perverbial middle finger and we began to change the game into the game we wanted. That has NEVER been done to console game before, and I don't think anyone has modded any game to the extent we are doing right now to make a tournament version (more or less what we are doing). It's so radical that anyone who says it is impossible has no idea what they are talking about. Like you said earlier Muba, most people are naysaying because it's never been done before.

Brawl+ has a bright future. I hope it completely overtakes Brawl. I want it to have a huge scene. I want it to spread throughout all of the smash communities. I want Sakurai to take notice, as well as Nintendo, so they can make a game that is good for everyone and not mostly casual gamers. Melee was like that, and really people dislike Melee so much now because when Brawl was announced everyone swarmed to the smashboards and they got jaded by the tournament mindset. They don't hate melee, they hate competitive play, and they are projecting that onto Melee.

Wow, what an uplifting post. I have a question though. If Brawl+ is destroying their regular brawl and they want it to overshadow regular brawl, then will we be getting a subforum? Things will be more organized if we can get one..

 

[MuBa]

In all honesty this whole legal thing can be remedied if we get an Action Replay specifically for the Wii.

We're basically changing the variables using Hexadecimals, which is the SAME thing that AR does...