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How to be an irritating (meaning effective) Brawl player

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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I stand by my disapproval. It's just not the same game once you start hardcore camping to win. Most of the people who go to tournaments go because it is fun for them. If they lose to camping, they don't have fun and are less inclined to go to future tournaments. If they then go online and see that they are viewed as "pot fodder" then they are gone from the competitive scene for good.

I don't give a **** how you play in the grand finals. Do whatever the **** you want to win at that point. But please try to understand that the number of entrants is going to be hurt by your tactics if you bust them out before you need to, and that the number of entrants is by far the most important thing to consider when you are trying to make money.

:034:
If your plan for keeping players entering tournaments is to play poorly, it is a short sighted plan.

Besides, camping is fun! :D
 

TP

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If your plan for keeping players entering tournaments is to play poorly, it is a short sighted plan.
Is it? I go Ganon unconditionally against anyone who isn't on this forum, and ROB unconditionally against Legan. You can look after yourself AND keep players interested in one day, even if not at the exact same time.

:034:
 

Overswarm

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Is it? I go Ganon unconditionally against anyone who isn't on this forum, and ROB unconditionally against Legan. You can look after yourself AND keep players interested in one day, even if not at the exact same time.

:034:
I do this by training them, and also playing awesome friendlies with cool stuff like lightning melee with bunny ears.

But training them helps more than goofing off.

You know what the difference is between someone who has a fun friendly and someone who is given a half hour one-on-one lesson?

Dedication.

You play 30 minutes of 1 on 1 matches with various secondaries against some kid's main and he'll be back if he doesn't work that day, has the extra money, and his "real friends" don't want to do anything.

You be a top player and give a 30 minute 1 on 1 lesson, being one of the only good players to give this kid the time of day, and they'll be back. Period.
 

TP

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Friendlies? I meant in tournament. I go Ganon in tournament against players who aren't from this forum. I (and a couple other STL smashers) spend a lot of time at tournies telling new players stuff about our scene and giving them advice and playing with them. I'm sure you are great with the unknowns from your area, but I sure hope you never mention smashboards to them, because they wouldn't be too pleased with this thread.

:034:
 

Overswarm

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Messages
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Friendlies? I meant in tournament. I go Ganon in tournament against players who aren't from this forum. I (and a couple other STL smashers) spend a lot of time at tournies telling new players stuff about our scene and giving them advice and playing with them. I'm sure you are great with the unknowns from your area, but I sure hope you never mention smashboards to them, because they wouldn't be too pleased with this thread.

:034:
I train them, I don't baby them. I thank each and every one of them personally for their donation. If they're worried about being called pot fodder they need to not be pot fodder. =P

I've done a pretty good job expanding my scene though, so I think I and the others who have worked with me have done a good job ;)
 

TP

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Out of curiosity, what do you say to someone after you time them out to end the set and they just stare at the screen? GGs? I'm sorry, but this is a competition? Better luck next time? One time, I beat a guy because he CPed poorly (underestimated my Ganon, thus went Bowser). When he lost, he yelled "Goddammit!" and threw his controller. I just walked away and felt bad. I think that's why I can't camp well, lol. I put myself in my opponents shoes too much.

:034:
 

Roxas M

Smash Master
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Zane - Texas(aka Hell)
wow.......this thread just blew my mind. lol

when i play brawl i refuse to play gay and campy(even though alot of my opponents do it to me without a care in the world) and sometimes i pay for that. like losing and raging because they play so annoying and gay and still win.


@TP: i ALWAYS put myself in my opponents shoes. lmao.
i hate playing people that play campy so i don't do it.
 

humble

Smash Ace
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Oct 25, 2009
Messages
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Portland, OR
Every match you guys play you sandbag. You know you would be doing better in the match if you were willing to actually take advantage of the gay way, but you decide to stick to your imaginary "honor code". The tools that frustrate your opponent are the tools that cause difficulty, but instead of helping them overcome that difficulty and improve as a player, you baby them and say "ok, I won't use Metas tornado anymore. I won't tilt with snake anymore. I won't laser with falco anymore, and god forbid I touch the down b button while using Diddy." You handicap yourself in every match by refusing to play a superior style, and thus you sandbag every match.

If you really followed some sort of honor code, you wouldn't sandbag every match and you wouldn't baby your opponent. You would play the best way you can, and if that means to plank as meta then by god go ahead and plank.



Excellent thread OS, I look forward to seeing more gay play.
 

Shaya

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If you're playing scrubs you don't need to camp to win.
You just slaughter them quickly and cleanly with the basics of spacing and accurate move choices.

However, I feel that's almost -worse- than camping.
camping has this passive nature which to lower level players would tend towards a puzzle, hell if they're coming into the scene from wifi (i.e. wifail) they're probably used to this sort of style/"puzzle fighting" to overcome camping.

If you absoloutely slaughter them in quick moments they cannot comprehend I see more people just being shocked and not knowing wtf happened and just leave and never feel like they can compete again.
Of course as Overswarm puts it, dedication is a whole new ball game. Dedicated players like getting slaughtered, I love getting slaughtered, even if its not feasible for me to get slaughtered without paying $1000 for airline tickets to the States.

Players who are dealt the aggressive card their entire brawl careers that are then dumped with 'camp', never having to deal with it, nor learning how to deal with it with their characters seem to cause more rage quits than transitioning the new players into it.
A good player doesn't need to time out a newbie if they're camping though. Timing out is an option for winning, and it's generally easy against worse players to just molest their predictability, passively or aggressively.

Passive play promotes thought, and to win in Brawl against all 'broken' strategies, you have to be a thinker. Once the lower level players step into the realm of conscious thought of their movements in game, then they can start learning to speed up their games to accomodate.
 

Nic64

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Sandbagging like that for the purpose of making more people like the game is essentially lying to them, better that they learn what brawl is all about early on IMO. Brawl doesn't seem to have issues with tournament attendance in any case, and most competitive players are at least somewhat "gay".
 

Roxas M

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Every match you guys play you sandbag. You know you would be doing better in the match if you were willing to actually take advantage of the gay way, but you decide to stick to your imaginary "honor code". The tools that frustrate your opponent are the tools that cause difficulty, but instead of helping them overcome that difficulty and improve as a player, you baby them and say "ok, I won't use Metas tornado anymore. I won't tilt with snake anymore. I won't laser with falco anymore, and god forbid I touch the down b button while using Diddy." You handicap yourself in every match by refusing to play a superior style, and thus you sandbag every match.

If you really followed some sort of honor code, you wouldn't sandbag every match and you wouldn't baby your opponent. You would play the best way you can, and if that means to plank as meta then by god go ahead and plank.



Excellent thread OS, I look forward to seeing more gay play.
O.M.F.G

you just posted my playstyle. lmfao.
and my ''honor code'' is why i'm not getting any better atm.
 

theunabletable

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Awesome read.

Really there is nothing more fun than hearing your opponent complain and say stuff like "GOD KIRBY IS SO ****ING CAMPY" after an 8 minute match of me waiting for them to approach, and back airing them when they make a mistake.

You be a top player and give a 30 minute 1 on 1 lesson, being one of the only good players to give this kid the time of day, and they'll be back. Period.
This. Not only do bad players like me love getting advice, but it feels even nicer when someone way better than you takes time out of their day to try and help you get better. Not only does that help me get better, but that makes me feel like I fit into the community more, and makes me WANT to get better.

Or maybe that's just me.
 

Laem

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im kinda suprised by the lack of trolls in this thread
1. overswarm, you suck. I dont think ive ever seen you on any top 10 list of any tourney(play to win money my ***)
2. DMG > you. TAKE IT

besides this tho, ur right.
 

MetalMusicMan

Sleepwalk our lives away.
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Twilight Prince said:
Out of curiosity, what do you say to someone after you time them out to end the set and they just stare at the screen? GGs? I'm sorry, but this is a competition?
Yes, TP, that is competition. That's the whole point, you and your opponent do everything you can to win and do not take the other person's "feelings" into account. There is a real sense of camaraderie and respect in playing like that.

Sadly, most people have your mindset and just "think it's lame" and totally miss how fantastic it can be, win or lose, to go all out against someone and gain a new sense of respect for you and your opponent. This is the spirit of competition, not "being nice and banning gay stuff because it's not nice" is not competitive.




At any rate, Overswarm:

This is, of course, really basic stuff for any fighting game, but you organized it well and a lot of people don't understand this kind of stuff, so it's good that you made a post about it. Good work!

Playing gay or "like overswarm" doesn't make the game bad or any less competitive. It makes it more competitive. For some reason, most of this community thinks that competition is about "looking cool" or "being unique" or something... it's really ridiculous. It's like 90% of the people who play this game have never played any other fighting game and have no concept of how competitive play works.

I can only hope that well written articles such as this will help change that, but I still think that we have a long way to go.

While I'm not a fan of your custom stages, I do really agree that Pictochat is a totally viable stage and should not be banned from tournaments.



You have such a great mindset for competitive gaming... if only you weren't so contradictory with your own statements, I would be able to agree with you on most things, Overswarm :p

I mean, posts like this and your attitude towards the game are exactly what a competitive gamer should have, and that is really respectable to me because so few people in this community have that... but then you are also one of the main people who thinks Metaknight should be banned, which goes against that mindset and everything that you have said in this post.

I just don't get how you can contradict yourself so much--it makes it hard to support you at all despite good posts like this. ...but, I digress.



This was a good post and keep up the good work :)
 

shadyf0o

Smash Journeyman
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Forgotten what smash is about?

I won the Falcon ditto championships once AND I beat the reigning champ in a best of 3 on Port Town Aero Dive, Big Blue, and THE MAN custom stage (where you can get in his belly).

I play for fun all the time! It's awesome!

Just not in tournament. That's like going to an NBA team and telling them it doesn't matter if they win or lose, it's how they play the game! It is true, but not in that context.

If you're playing in tournament to hit someone with a falcon punch, you are not a competitive player. You are a competitive player's jester.



That is you.
Falcon ditto? Hardly impressed. Beat a higher tier character with him, then maybe. I'm not competitive because I refuse to tournado all day long? I thought playing competitively had something to do with matching or exceeding your opponents skill. Excuse me, I've seen the error of my ways! Next tournament I go to I'll be metaknight and hide on the ledge and smash B whenever I don't know what to do. OMG!!!! Hiding underneath the stage??!!!!! UBER LEET!!!! I wish I could be so pro!!!

To me, people who play like that are the jesters. There's no smash spirit in that. You don't see M2K doing that do you? What pride can you take from playing out the clock by hiding underneath the stage? I simply don't get it. Smashers used to have style, even in tournaments. You've got no balls man....no balls. Playing that way is just an excuse for not having the smash ability to win.

I'm sure you really are a great player, but we could never see it from underneath the stage.

btw: I main Falcon and Diddy, but Falcon is my priority.
 
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OS your ZSS analysis is not good, she sucks but it's not because of her recovery (average recovery) or her KO options (average, maybe slightly above average), it is that she has zero defensive options and has to commit to each attack. Every time you attack it has to hit or you get punished, nothing she has is safe.
 

llamapaste

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Nice read. What you said is amazingly accurate but isn't Pictochat banned in most places?
 

A2ZOMG

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OS your ZSS analysis is not good, she sucks but it's not because of her recovery (average recovery) or her KO options (average, maybe slightly above average), it is that she has zero defensive options and has to commit to each attack. Every time you attack it has to hit or you get punished, nothing she has is safe.
ZSS has a lot of stuff that is stupidly safe. It doesn't have to hit for it to be safe.

The problem is actually hitting someone who knows the matchup because her stuff telegraphs (PS her SideB for instance).
 

InfiniteBlaze

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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"Step 1: Rethinking Character Choice

I know, I know. You've already got your character. You love him or her or it, and never want to play anyone else. If you have that mentality, stop reading and continue giving players like me your money."

What if you play MK and don't need a secondary, lol
 

Overswarm

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Addressed this already! Lost to a Shugo, who since dropped the character.

Besides, I've wrecked every other Sonic I've played in hilarious fashions.... and losing to a good player last stock last hit on last game isn't really a bad thing. o_O

Out of curiosity, what do you say to someone after you time them out to end the set and they just stare at the screen? GGs? I'm sorry, but this is a competition? Better luck next time? One time, I beat a guy because he CPed poorly (underestimated my Ganon, thus went Bowser). When he lost, he yelled "Goddammit!" and threw his controller. I just walked away and felt bad. I think that's why I can't camp well, lol. I put myself in my opponents shoes too much.
Say? I don't say anything, I'm too busy laughing maniacally.

Umbreon said:
Pictochat is banned in good regions
Incorrect! Dumb people ban pictochat because the desperately want to change Brawl into something they prefer rather than something it is, and as such they are probably the most hilarious scrubs of all time. Banning pictochat because you're too lazy to learn where to stand is as dumb as banning PS2 because you can't comprehend "not jumping" during the air transformation.

The uber conservative mindset of IF IT AIN'T FLAT WITH PLATS I'M GONNA THROW A TANTRUM is a clear cut sign of someone with some sort of mental malfunction, especially if you hear them say the word "Melee". That means that they're not creative and can only play a game where everyone else has already shown them what to do. Brawl comes out and players like me invent things. We carve our own paths. Players that want pictochat banned? They want to copy what other people do, and anything that makes them think of even attempts to take the control out of their hands to make things harder is instantly hated. Most of the people that think in this fashion have stayed played Melee and only play ****ty characters in Brawl as some sort of defense for their reasoning. I'm not bad at Brawl, I just play a bad character! HAR HAR HAR

EH UMBREON?!
 

Uffe

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Playing smart and having enough game experience and match-up experience is all that you need to be good at this game.
 

Tristan_win

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"HOW TO BE AN IRRITATING PLAYER

Step 1: Rethinking Character Choice

I know, I know. You've already got your character. You love him or her or it, and never want to play anyone else. If you have that mentality, stop reading and continue giving players like me your money."

HEY screw you. I was nodding my head in agreement all the way until this point. Just because someone doesn't use Meta knight, diddy, marth, Lucario, falco, snake, wario, does not mean they can't make the other person as annoyed as them or win money. The fact you made this your first paragraphs in your little guide just goes to show how poor it must really be.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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Before I start, I'm going to say a lot of the stuff said, especially about stage choice and positioning, hits some true points some people don't get. Anyway...

"Don't approach" is perhaps oversimplifying it. I'm remembering a somewhat famous match that was on some livestream, Dojo's Meta Knight versus some WC Falco on Battlefield. The match went like this:

1. Dojo gets a small lead
2. Falco shoots a lot of lasers
3. Meta Knight jumps and airdodges
4. Time runs out; Dojo wins

What I get from your post is that you'd support the way the Falco was playing. He was, in fact, not approaching and making it as obnoxious as possible for the Meta Knight not to approach. I don't support the way the Falco was playing not out of some misguided ethical complaint but rather because he didn't win.

The bigger lesson I think is to change your tactics depending on what works. Staying back and spamming lasers, while safe, simply was not working. Most Meta Knight players would cave in and approach against that, and that would be fine. This one did not, and the Falco player never adapted to that fact, instead choosing defeat. What Falco should have done was approach far earlier (or at all even). Sure it has inherent risk, but consider the options. He could have had a chance at victory via risky tactics or no chance at victory via safe tactics. The risk was better. Then, maybe if the risk paid off and he got the lead, he could have gone back to shooting lasers. Or maybe if it worked really well he could have kept being aggressive and taken his win that way. After all, if it works, why wouldn't you do it?

In general really, the whole analysis speaks from positions of strength. If you're in a position of strength, taking almost no risks and playing super conservatively is great. However, you have to be real with yourself. If you're in a bad matchup or even a matchup that isn't bad in the abstract but is one you're not comfortable with, you start the game in a position of weakness. If you are losing by a non-tiny amount (like let's say you're down 50%), you're in a position of weakness. If both players play simple, conservative, risk-free games, you lose. Your opponent, if good, doubtless knows this and will play that way. So, you have two choices. You can go along because it's "smart play" and basically agree to lose, or you can do something "bad" and be aggressive and have at least a chance at winning. Taking that sure thing 8% over the risky 30% is perhaps the the key point of it all. The 8% is just another step toward inevitability if you're in the position of strength, but if you're in the position of weakness, that 30% is hope that the 8% really doesn't represent. Land that 30% a few times and suddenly your position of weakness might not be so weak anymore. Then you can afford to play it safe, and maybe you can actually win something you're "supposed to lose".

Sure by playing a high tier character and being careful from the start you can minimize the times you are in a position of weakness (a good thing!), but you can't avoid being in such positions. The original post's advice is great if you need to merely help along inevitability, but if inevitability is going against you, disruption and crazy play are likely the best you can hope for.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Playing smart and having enough game experience and match-up experience is all that you need to be good at this game.
I disagree because eventually you're characters tools will not stack up to others characters tools.
 

Overswarm

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Before I start, I'm going to say a lot of the stuff said, especially about stage choice and positioning, hits some true points some people don't get. Anyway...

"Don't approach" is perhaps oversimplifying it. I'm remembering a somewhat famous match that was on some livestream, Dojo's Meta Knight versus some WC Falco on Battlefield. The match went like this:

1. Dojo gets a small lead
2. Falco shoots a lot of lasers
3. Meta Knight jumps and airdodges
4. Time runs out; Dojo wins

What I get from your post is that you'd support the way the Falco was playing. He was, in fact, not approaching and making it as obnoxious as possible for the Meta Knight not to approach. I don't support the way the Falco was playing not out of some misguided ethical complaint but rather because he didn't win.

The bigger lesson I think is to change your tactics depending on what works. Staying back and spamming lasers, while safe, simply was not working. Most Meta Knight players would cave in and approach against that, and that would be fine. This one did not, and the Falco player never adapted to that fact, instead choosing defeat. What Falco should have done was approach far earlier (or at all even). Sure it has inherent risk, but consider the options. He could have had a chance at victory via risky tactics or no chance at victory via safe tactics. The risk was better. Then, maybe if the risk paid off and he got the lead, he could have gone back to shooting lasers. Or maybe if it worked really well he could have kept being aggressive and taken his win that way. After all, if it works, why wouldn't you do it?

In general really, the whole analysis speaks from positions of strength. If you're in a position of strength, taking almost no risks and playing super conservatively is great. However, you have to be real with yourself. If you're in a bad matchup or even a matchup that isn't bad in the abstract but is one you're not comfortable with, you start the game in a position of weakness. If you are losing by a non-tiny amount (like let's say you're down 50%), you're in a position of weakness. If both players play simple, conservative, risk-free games, you lose. Your opponent, if good, doubtless knows this and will play that way. So, you have two choices. You can go along because it's "smart play" and basically agree to lose, or you can do something "bad" and be aggressive and have at least a chance at winning. Taking that sure thing 8% over the risky 30% is perhaps the the key point of it all. The 8% is just another step toward inevitability if you're in the position of strength, but if you're in the position of weakness, that 30% is hope that the 8% really doesn't represent. Land that 30% a few times and suddenly your position of weakness might not be so weak anymore. Then you can afford to play it safe, and maybe you can actually win something you're "supposed to lose".

Sure by playing a high tier character and being careful from the start you can minimize the times you are in a position of weakness (a good thing!), but you can't avoid being in such positions. The original post's advice is great if you need to merely help along inevitability, but if inevitability is going against you, disruption and crazy play are likely the best you can hope for.
Sounds to me like the falco should have HIT him with the lasers.

Anyway, I actually mention scenarios like this and support the way the MK was playing! I mentioned someone spamming projectiles and you simply dodging them and taking minimal damage. Shiz works! Falco is a bad character.

"HOW TO BE AN IRRITATING PLAYER

Step 1: Rethinking Character Choice

I know, I know. You've already got your character. You love him or her or it, and never want to play anyone else. If you have that mentality, stop reading and continue giving players like me your money."

HEY screw you. I was nodding my head in agreement all the way until this point. Just because someone doesn't use Meta knight, diddy, marth, Lucario, falco, snake, wario, does not mean they can't make the other person as annoyed as them or win money. The fact you made this your first paragraphs in your little guide just goes to show how poor it must really be.
You nod your head along to an introduction?

Anyway, you're wrong. You're so wrong in fact that I don't really need to fully address you. Have fun playing Yoshi or Ness or whatever garbage character you crazy people play.
 

da K.I.D.

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To me, people who play like that are the jesters. There's no smash spirit in that. You don't see M2K doing that do you? What pride can you take from playing out the clock by hiding underneath the stage? I simply don't get it. Smashers used to have style, even in tournaments. You've got no balls man....no balls. Playing that way is just an excuse for not having the smash ability to win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OztKYId64M
you dont see m2k doing that?

cus everyone else who watching that video sees it pretty clearly.

but you are right about one thing, both m2k and OS would admit to the fact that playing gay and camping really is just an excuse for not having the skills and ability to win by actually fighting.
M2k planks like a beast, because he lacks the ability to not get grabbed by meep.
But who cares, he got the win anyway. you dont need to take home pride if your taking home a win instead.
Personally, I think the way he obliterated them was quite stylish anyway...

You have Vegeta as your avatar!

Play like Vegeta would, not like how Gohan or Piccolo or some other scrub would.

This is true, the only time vegeta didnt play gay was when he was cocky under estimated his opponent, which usually ended up in him approaching instead of camping like he should have and getting stomped out as a result.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Then what do you think makes you a good player?
That makes a good player but that can only take you so far and there comes a point where your characters tools can hold you back from making it to the next level.
 

The Truth!

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Sounds to me like the falco should have HIT him with the lasers.
lol, thats what I thought when I read that. The same strategy has also contributed to Falco's victories. But Falco is not a bad character, right now I'd put money on Larry beating any MK over 50% of the time sans M2K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkzalzPcFrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl4YsqlqMdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzGQKxyMLvg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j8f5pWgjk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjkVqRAKNRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni9sOa_XQqI
 
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