How to Land an Usmash [MAJOR UPDATE]

[EdreesesPieces]

This thread is great. I wanted to bring up something that has me reallllyy interested. Upsmash apparantly has 14 frames of startup. Does this mean you can upsmash out of shield any character that uses an aerial with at least 14 frames of aerial cooldown? (As long as they are within the range of your upsmash)

Moves i've recently managed to SWEETSPOT an upsmash out of shield:

-Metaknight's f-air
-Lucario's down air

The possibilities can be really really good..the trick is to begin your upsmash out of shield the second you're done shielding any hitbox that could hit you. I think it's possible to usmash out of shield a LOT of moves in this game if the opposing character doesn't retreat on their spacing properly. The beauty of upsmash out of shield is that you don't waste 7 frames with a shield drop. So it's actually QUICKER to usmash out of shield than it is to drop shield and do any smash that is at least 7 frames!! HOLY **** OMG.

 

[bobson]

This thread is great. I wanted to bring up something that has me reallllyy interested. Upsmash apparantly has 14 frames of startup. Does this mean you can upsmash out of shield any character that uses an aerial with at least 14 frames of aerial cooldown?

Shield drop lag is 7 frames, so you'd have to bump it up to 21 frames. And hope they don't land after hitting your shield or push you away too far for usmash to land.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I addressed this point in my edit, sorry about that. You don't go through a shield drop animation when you upsmash out of shield. I'm not referring to shield drop--> upsmash. I'm speaking of hit up to jump out of shield and instantly hit up on the C-stick, which bypasses your shield drop animation and allows you to do an upsmash. Hence why it doesn't work with tap jump off because you don't jump by pressing up.

But I hear there's other ways to do it with tap jump off, I just don't know 'em.

 

[bobson]

I addressed this point in my edit, sorry about that. You don't go through a shield drop animation when you upsmash out of shield. I'm not referring to shield drop--> upsmash. I'm speaking of hit up to jump out of shield and instantly hit up on the C-stick, which bypasses your shield drop animation and allows you to do an upsmash. Hence why it doesn't work with tap jump off because you don't jump by pressing up.

...you can do that??
Why didn't I know about this?! I always assumed usmash out of shield meant dropping your shield and using usmash.

But I hear there's other ways to do it with tap jump off, I just don't know 'em.

I'm pretty sure you should be able to do that by setting a button to jump and using that.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

^Yeah, true.

You didn't know because nobody in Brawl ever really talks about it. I know it because I used to do it with Peach in Melee because shield drop was so long of an animation, that upsmashing out of shield in melee is standard and key for good players, especially with Fox. However, Melee had shield stun too, so you had to account for shield stun when upsmashing out of shield people's aerials. Brawl has no real significant shield stun, making me believe that upsmash out of shield during shield pressure for Peach may be REALLY amazing in Brawl even though it wasn't in Melee. I'm sure this will help you with Mario too Although TBH I don't remember what his upsmash is LOL.

Actually yeah I didn't think to factor in shield stun, but shield stun effects you no matter what you choose to use (say, neutral air out of shield) so I still think there might be some kind of rule as in "if you can nair them out of shield, you can upsmash them out of shield" or something along those lines.

 

[Gea]

Yes Edrees, this works BUT they have to space the aerial right ontop of you for the sweetspot. You can use any jump button and the Cstick to do it.

Mario's usmash would be okay OOS. He just kinda swings his head upwards. In fact, I do rarely see this (probably because OOS game is so more much flexible). I'm going to practice doing this with more characters.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I've sweetspotted upsmashes from the side, though..plenty of times.. I thought Peach has 2 different sweetspots on her upsmash? The one inside of her is actually stronger than the tip. I hope that's not just Melee, because I've noticed it in brawl too...

 

[SuSa]

Use Y/X to jump and do a jump-canceled up smash. It's the same exact physics as with Tap Jump ON, just a different jump input.

There is a very small amount of shield stun in this game in most cases.....

 

[Gea]

No you are right. There is a REALLY strong part and a strong part then the sour part. I thought the strongest part was the tip though, with her shoulders being the strong part and the sides being sour? The reason I think this is when you hit someone with it on a platform isn't that the strongest part? But then again I'm pretty sure you're right, inside of her is the strongest because cargo dthrow into Peach's usmash always has the strongest part.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I'm positive the inside of her is much stronger. I've killed Metaknight at 85% with this part. A tipped upsmash won't kill him til like 105. Her sweetest upsmash spot is stronger than fox's upsmash, but I don't think her tipped upsmash is.

 

[Airgemini]

There's also a damage difference.
Uncharged fingertip sweetspot is 15% while the shoulder one is 17%.

I think that's right..

 

[_Keno_]

yes, thats right.

The shoulder was also the sweetspot for melee.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

Pretty much, yeah, it was. In that game, it was REALLY hard to hit the super sweetspot, which I think remains the same. Basically, if you hit with Peach's shoulderpads, then you get the strongest hit.

If you want an example of Peach's Melee super sweetspot, I actually managed to land it in a team's match on Corneria against a Fox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALNF1oDlHaw <-- around 3:48

 

[mountain_tiger]

Peach's USmash is basically the same as it was in Melee. The strong part is her palm, the really strong part is her shoulder, the weak part is everywhere else.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Taken from this Melee Peach thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=47313

It's melee peach upsmash hitbox. I wish we could find something like this for brawl? I wonder how much has changed?

 

[Gea]

Every time I see the old bubble hitboxes I think about what Snake's utilt would look like.

 

[Inaphyt]

Yes good but people will not roll into you when you throw a turnip, that's the thing implanted into the mind what NOT to do, they will either catch, jump over, roll away, or shield, rolling into someone is always a very bad idea.

 

[r3d d09]

what about the other side of stage one on castle siege? prob just forgot to highlight it.
Good stuff man. thanks for the time and effort for this :D

 

[BrianTheLion]

i just mindgame air dodges works well on snake cuzz they always airdodge cuzz they hate being in the air

 

[Praxis]

Brian, You play Mr. Game & Watch. >_>

 

[hiROI]

On battlefield, I glide toss upwards towards the ends of the stage, and the snake airdogdes towards the middle, and i just charge a running upsmash <3

 

[r3d d09]

On battlefield, I glide toss upwards towards the ends of the stage, and the snake airdogdes towards the middle, and i just charge a running upsmash <3

It's like jigglypuff and the rest. the opponent sets it up xD.
I like the peach board

 

[deepseadiva]

what about the other side of stage one on castle siege? prob just forgot to highlight it.

I remember it being too high I think.

 

[r3d d09]

I remember it being too high I think.

I'd test it, but one... i got my GC controllers stolen
two. i'm out of state.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

i just mindgame air dodges works well on snake cuzz they always airdodge cuzz they hate being in the air

The problem is that smarter people don't fall for this often. I can do it too, but I'm looking for ways to upsmash people without mind gaming them. (ie, guaranteed upsmashes in specific situations gauranteed by frame data) If you play Ally or Ultimate Razor, they will often combine dropping a grenade (with a b reversal) with a back air, so you can't really rely on punishing their air dodges.

 

[deepseadiva]

Oh god this took forever.

Alright, done. Major update is finished. Enjoy.

Me go sleep time now.

 

[Silly Kyle]

Sweet!! Thanks Meno =]

 

[Xyless]

oooh, my data was used! :D

I should get back to that, there's still a few things I want to test.

Also, this is going on my iPod for future reference! :D

 

[Excel_Zero]

Oh god this took forever.

Alright, done. Major update is finished. Enjoy.

Me go sleep time now.

I love you.

 

[Xyless]

Dang it, I can't make this all one giant file and send it to my iPod Touch. It completely destroys quality.

I want to have the formatting and everything, so putting it in the Notes section doesn't work either. PLUS I don't want to risk leaving it on Safari because it might try to refresh at a tourney and kill the page. WHAT DO I DO!?

 

[Dark.Pch]

This is pretty cool. I did not know most of these things. Really the way I can land upsmash with each character. Though I am upset you have daisy Peach being attacked alot.

 

[Xyless]

Yeah, I'd rather be up smashing green Peach. She's such a skank.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Very minor thing (not sure if its been mentioned) but you can get an Up Smash in when people are recovering off the ledge. You can get one by sheilding a get up attack (e.g. they're hanging on the ledge and use an attack) and using an OoS Up Smash or moving towards them and Up Smashing (OoS Up Smash is much more likely work and especially against big characters like Bowser). You can also get one if someone does a jump get up (e.g. they're hanging the ledge and use jump) but you have to get it just right

I'm not sure about every character but basically, you Up Smash just as they jump up from the ledge as they have frames where they aren't invincible but can't perform any moves either. I've tested and checked this and even they use invincibility frames from grabbing the ledge, they still won't have enough to avoid getting hit by the palm of Peachs hands (its definitly a sweetspot hit). I did my testing on MK and got varied results but the majority of them were the Up Smash connecting on him before any of his aerials came out and I tried all variations. Sometimes I would get hit and the Up Smash wouldn't hit, other times they would trade hits. The hardest timing was hitting MK when he did a jump get up and airdodge asap but you can still get a sweetspot Up Smash in

And if anyone is curious, I tried doing a simple get up and a rolling get up but the Up Smash didn't connect either time. You get an Up Smash in if someone big like Bowser performs a simple get up but the timing is a bit strict

I still need to look into get ups from characters at 100%+ but I've done it on MK and atm I'm guessing everyone will be the same. The get up is slower and will allow more reaction time for you which is very good since 100%+ is an ideal percent to be killing with a sweetspotted Up Smash

Another thing that needs looking into is having Peach face away from the ledge and connect with the Up Smash away from the opponent (aka the opponent is behind her). I'm not sure if this allows her to get a much stronger sweetspot part in and I guess it might help if you ant to get a quick OoS aerial in instead? Bair would be ideal for that

One final point, the closer you are to the ledge the easier it is to get an Up Smash in. So if youre right by the ledge, you'll pretty much get an Up Smash everytime if they jump get up. This could be dsiadvantaged though since an kind of attack might push you off the ledge. If you aren't right next to the ledge though, OoS Up Smashes on simple get up attacks could be perfectly viable especially on bigger characters and most definitly when characters are above 100% (heck you could probably drop your sheild after the attack and dash in and Up Smash). Another problem I'm aware of though is that most good players are inventive and will normally mess around the ledge before getting up or drop down and jump/attack back onstage e.g. MK and his many jumps


So yea, long post but let me know what you all think cause I'm going to mess around with this and see what I can do

 

[Gangsta_inc]

Yeah, I'd rather be up smashing green Peach. She's such a skank.

O :

So I hear you like talking bout my tertiary peach...

Wifi?

 

[hiROI]

I absolutely LOVE this thread

Thanks Meno<3

 

[Meru.]

Ah, Usmash as a sort of ledge punish/pressure thingie. I'll try it, it sounds good.

 

[Airgemini]

The OP looks very nice Meno.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ah, Usmash as a sort of ledge punish/pressure thingie. I'll try it, it sounds good.

Yea thats the idea. If you put your sheild up as well, you can still do an OoS Up Smash if the enemy changes their mind and decides to drop down and attack for example. It'll push you away and you won't get the Up Smash but at least you won't take any damage

The results are interesting though. Try it out guys, the moment you see someone about to do a jump get up, get that Up Smash in!

 

[Metatitan]

I don't think you need to powershield yoshi's up smash to be able to up smash OoS against him, just press jump + up on the c stick/up a and it should hit him with or without powershielding.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

I just relized this thread is here. maybe i should look at things more often.