How would you balance the cast?

[enCouRaging Bear]

i feel like all the chars in this game should be balanced around the A-B tiers... falcon, marth , peach and ics (and maybe a toned down sheik).
they just seem to make the most sense as characters, aside from minor things that don't make sense like marth's grab range or peach's dsmash (which only need to be toned down a tiny bit), their moves flow together extremely well, and they have flaws that mesh well with their strengths

the a tiers make the most sense to me aesthetically as well but that's more of a personal thing

for the s tiers: rest and shine are all sort of dumb imo

in fighting game terms falco's shine is like having a 1-3 frame launcher (fast as or faster than most jabs ????)... that's ****ing ********. comboing into rest is like having a 1 frame ultra in a game where no one else has ultras. as much as this has defined melee and the way these characters are played, its sort of dumb if you actually think about it (no offense to mains of these characters)

that said i'm not really sure how well these chars would fare without these tools and what i would replace them with... hmmm

aaaaanyways
what character(s) would you balance the cast around, what would you change about the rest of the cast, and why? feel free to post whole lists of changes per character whether it be simply frame data on particular moves or entirely different moves, etc

edit: please try to discuss primarily your main in relation to these questions because noone is an expert on the entire cast... that said I'd like to hear about more characters from high level players

 

[Kal]

I would take the Brawl- approach and just try to supe everyone up. Ideally, we'd have a game where every character was top tier.

 

[choknater]

i like that approach as well, and i feel like that's what was done with project M. all the melee high tiers feel largely unchanged, but the low tier buffs feel great.

i know that this will eventually lead to power creep, but hell, sometimes brokenness makes games HYPE.

 

[R:U:N]

The tier grouping that I find to be most balanced is probably D
Mario has great combo ability, but a predictable recovery, and no moves that are truly "broken" (besides maybe the cape,but only really against characters with horrible recoveries)
Luigi has a similar deal, his recovery's worse though, but he has a lot of high priority moves that make up for it
Pikachu has great mobility and a decent gimp game, but in turn, he's susceptible to being gimped as well
Donkey Kong has a great offensive game, but his defensive game isn't great.
Overall, I like the idea of a more apparent tradeoff: A character is strong is this regard, but weak in this regard, and this definitely applies to other members of the cast, but sometimes there's an imbalance, Falco, for example has a great combo, gimp, and camping game, and, as stated earlier, the shine, but the only major flaw is his recovery.
I didn't really like what Brawl did, you'd think that if you try to make everyone equally buffed, it'll feel fair, but I prefer more of a balance in strengths and weaknesses, because sometimes working your way around character's weaknesses is the fun of playing that character.

 

[Beat!]

I'd buff all the non-top tier characters until they were as good as the top tiers.

Nerfing characters would make the game less fun.

 

[Hax]

i strongly agree that marth/peach/cf tier is the most well-designed. above that tier **** is just too broken, below it characters tend to lack several of the fundamentals

i don't think there's any uniform change you can make to fix the cast though. you'd have to finetune every character one at a time

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

im glad to see you agree hax

that's what i'm making the thread for though... to see some of the possible "fine tunings"

@beat normally i'd agree but shine and rest don't really make sense in relation to all the other characters in melee. it'd be immensely difficult to balance the cast around fox/falco/puff unless we really did give characters 1 frame launchers and 1 frame crazy kill moves. that just sounds absurd just thinking about it

 

[red stone]

I have always believed that melee a lot of potential to be a legendary fighting game. Balance is one of the things that held it back.

Anyways, I would buff everyone up to marth's tier but would try not to go over that.

It would be very simple buffs to be honest. I'd give Captain falcon a secondary recovery like make his over B actually be worth something as a recovery.

-Mario. I'd make mario's up-b have nearly no lag upon landing and make his meteor smash a legit spike. Also, i would make his down tilt and his down-b be able to combo.

-Peach. I'd make her counter be able to kill at really high percentages. Over-B should kill as well. slightly longer wavedash.Sh

-Roy. I'd make his counter kill easier. I would give him a better spike. I would make his recovery slightly longer and with half the lag upon landing. His up-air would be made to combo better as well

-Pichu. extend the tail hitbox. increase kill potential on all smashes and special moves. Decrease damage to itself to 1 percent for each electric move. Make tilts lead into combo.

-Samus. I don't know much about Samus but here we go. Cut up-b lag in half. speed up grab animation but keep the same lag. Make bombs lead into better combos. Speed up roll animation x3. Make up smash and down tilt combo into something better. Make her meteor smash into a spike. Make super wave dash have a larger frame window.

-Ganondorf. Needs an air stall and a secondary recovery. better aerial mobility and slightly less lag on bair and fair. make down-b from the air be able to combo.

-Sheik. make transition from sheik to zelda and back near instantaneous. However, there should be a cool down period where you can't switch back immediately after switching once. This can lead to better recovery as sheik but can also lead to some awesome combos. This also makes it worth it to switch to zelda if you can finish off a cool combo with a lightning kick.

-Zelda. If the transformation is instantaneous, then I would consider zelda an assist character like in marvel vs. capcom lol. If this is the case, then i would give zelda better keep away moves to allow for the cooldown period to finish so you can switch back to sheik. However, I would also allow Zelda to have her own combos which can be ended with sheik so that you can play either character depending on your style. Things I would do are better tilts. improve the lag and splash damage of the over b. make neutral b combo.

-ice climbers. Give slightly more control over nana.

-Mewtwo. give up-throw more kill power. give back throw just a tad more knockback. give the over tilt tons more knockback. make his projectile faster. make his aerials combo better. bair should have more knockback or combo; either one really. I don't know, just want mewtwo to overall be more unstoppable. Give him the uber combos and zero to deaths. It just seems right for this pokemon.

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

i like a good portion of your suggestions red stone

for falcon i agree an additional recovery mix-up is helpful
i'd also add maybe a slightly faster techroll and or sidestep
(and in ntsc a free gentlemen would be nice )

an interesting point what you said about mario's up-b endlag....
fox and falco have almost no endlag on their up b's!!!????
that is clearly a serious oversight considering how punishable nearly every other character is when they land on stage with their recovery moves (sheik,falcon, marth, etc.)

 

[Beat!]

Shine is awesome.

And I don't think Puff is top 3 so idc about rest.

 

[KrIsP!]

Hand out reflectors to everyone on the first day.

 

[Cummings]

i doubt giving shiek a buff (a usable downB) would provide much balance being shiek is already high tier. if this were done, she would need some nerfing in her aerials so that she would need to rely on zelda's kicks, which would be awesome. Thats a character I would play- imagine the creative possiblilities of her comboes, compared to shiek's current Ftilt>Fair all day.

what makes this even more interesting is the direction the people at P:M are taking in this, as they increased the change time from shiek to zelda in the demo hugely, but instead buffed zelda hugely to actually make her a viable character on her own.

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

i think puff could still be A tier without rest

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i doubt giving shiek a buff (a usable downB) would provide much balance being shiek is already high tier. if this were done, she would need some nerfing in her aerials so that she would need to rely on zelda's kicks, which would be awesome. Thats a character I would play- imagine the creative possiblilities of her comboes, compared to shiek's current Ftilt>Fair all day.

what makes this even more interesting is the direction the people at P:M are taking in this, as they increased the change time from shiek to zelda in the demo hugely, but instead buffed zelda hugely to actually make her a viable character on her own.

They didnt increase the change time, brawl did that and they did all they can to make it faster atm.

I would nerf fox,falco,and sheik with pal changes. If this proves not to be enough for fox and falco i would maybe add some lag to there up b when they land on stage.

There is more but i dont have time right now, but i would more or less leave everyone from marth to ic's the same and nerf jiggs bair and if thats not enough i would change a couple of other things just not sure yet

 

[ajp_anton]

First, you should start with all the PAL changes that actually balanced the game (not Ganondorf's fair, Yoshi's dair, Link's up+B, all the Samus stuff). Also, I think Marth should have his NTSC dair.
Other than that, nerfing stuff should be avoided.

After a change, a character should still be playable just fine without any major readjustments. They should have their existing combos, but make them easier to do and the finishes stronger, and maybe add some new combos. Just try to avoid destroying their current play styles.

I could make a long list of character-by-character changes that I would do, but I don't see the point as they can't become true anyway.

 

[red stone]

Dang, now that I think about it, a high tier sheik/zelda hybrid would be incredible.

If the switch between the two took like 2 frames (and kept momentum) and both had their strengths and weaknesses in the air and on ground, then a master of the hybrid could do instant switches between the two like 30 times a match to compensate which could lead to the most incredible combo videos ever created and the most spectacular play style ever conceived.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Shrink Fox and Falco's shine.

Remove the stupid knockback and trajectory on Sheik's Dthrow and Fair.

Nerf Jiggs rest so it does kill at % stupid.

Make Samus and Link's zairs like in brawl on stage while keeping their melee hook on properties.

Make Pichu make low knockback but high hit stun so he can rack up damage stupidly without his drawback hurting him too much.

Make Roy's attack hit as if they were at the hit sweetspot at all times and make his moves safer on block.

Just what came to mind.

 

[odinNJ]

Give Roy a better recovery. Make his aerials give hitstun. Less hitstun aquired would be good. And good damage payout. He'd be a solid c tier

 

[Ripple]

you can't change hitstun alone....how m any times has this been said

 

[Dan Salvato]

Link needs nothing more than a faster jump and slightly faster running speed, in my opinion. But I think his dair and uair should have hitboxes on their frames of landing lag as well, making them a little more difficult to punish from below and above, respectively.

Oh yeah, and remove the zair landing lag.

 

[Cummings]

Dang, now that I think about it, a high tier sheik/zelda hybrid would be incredible.

If the switch between the two took like 2 frames (and kept momentum) and both had their strengths and weaknesses in the air and on ground, then a master of the hybrid could do instant switches between the two like 30 times a match to compensate which could lead to the most incredible combo videos ever created and the most spectacular play style ever conceived.

well now that wouldn't work because the two characters handle momentum differently. you would essentially be able to switch the zelda/shiek (whichever is preferred) whenever you got hit to take advantage of the DI capabilites of either. ex. get upsmashed=shiek, Fsmashed=zelda.

right now transform takes about 65 frames. if it were more like 15 (1/4 a second) would be much more reasonable but still awesome. of course none of this would work unless both characters were nerfed so that they were each forced to depend on each other. still a cool idea though.

 

[Dan Salvato]

well now that wouldn't work because the two characters handle momentum differently. you would essentially be able to switch the zelda/shiek (whichever is preferred) whenever you got hit to take advantage of the DI capabilites of either. ex. get upsmashed=shiek, Fsmashed=zelda.

right now transform takes about 65 frames. if it were more like 15 (1/4 a second) would be much more reasonable but still awesome. of course none of this would work unless both characters were nerfed so that they were each forced to depend on each other. still a cool idea though.

Ideally, Shiek would have combo potential but no killing moves and Zelda would have many powerful moves with good knockback. The tradeoff is that switching to the much lighter Zelda would make you much more likely to be killed yourself, though Zelda would have much better recovery than Shiek.

 

[Bing]

Roy's weight needs to be changed. Like he falls like a rock which isnt needed considering you can just fastfall fairs/uairs as opposed to the current.

For Jiggs, Rest could be nerfed a bit, but not like Brawl's because thats stupidly useless unless you have them at high percents. So its a high risk low reward tactic.

Marth has no real MAJOR flaws... I think he's perfect as is...

Ganon needs Falcon's Up-tilt for starters... he's a heavy character so his flaws are kind of hard to correct.

Link needs better movement, he's way too damn slow, like Ganon's faster and has an amazing waveland to boot.

Ylink more attacks with ko potential

Pikachu/Pichu die to early, so maybe making them a bit heavier would be decent. Also make Pichu's f-smash unable to sdi out of. Give Pika a wall jump!

G&W's Sheild for starters, make him more like Brawls version

Bowser add super armour and make his waveland better

DK needs a better vertical recovery.

Give Kirby his dair from 64.

Zelda needs better movement and some combos(true combos)

I dunno.. I'll add more later.

 

[mhenlo]

id give everyone a shine
edit: either shine which ever benefits that char more

 

[Bing]

Which Shine? Falco or Fox's?

 

[ajp_anton]

Link needs nothing more than a faster jump and slightly faster running speed, in my opinion. But I think his dair and uair should have hitboxes on their frames of landing lag as well, making them a little more difficult to punish from below and above, respectively.

Jump speed is one of those things that would make it difficult to switch between a regular and modded game. Of course it depends on how this balancing would be made, but I'm assuming that there would be some kind of modded version existing alongside the original.

But yes, hitbox during the landing lag of dair, and probably remove most of the uair landing lag.

Ideally, Shiek would have combo potential but no killing moves and Zelda would have many powerful moves with good knockback. The tradeoff is that switching to the much lighter Zelda would make you much more likely to be killed yourself, though Zelda would have much better recovery than Shiek.

I like the idea of having both Sheik and Zelda being useful, especially during a single match. But having different weights on them makes no sense =).

Roy's weight needs to be changed. Like he falls like a rock which isnt needed considering you can just fastfall fairs/uairs as opposed to the current.

Weight and falling speed are completely different. Just compare Samus with Falco or something.
Also, making Roy a slowfaller would make him more similar to Marth. I think they should have as many differences as possible (but of course buffing Roy in other ways).

 

[Bing]

ahh true say, but you still understand what im saying, his fast falling really hurts his recovery..

 

[kd-]

Give G&W a bigger shield
Give Ness a bigger grab range and a way to stall on the ledge (unless he has one and I don't know of it)
Make Pichu weigh heavier

 

[Shadow Huan]

been saying it for years now. why is Mewtwo lighter than PEACH???? make him heavier, and that's only for starters lol

more to come, gotta think about this

 

[red stone]

when trying to buff a character or nerf a character even, I think one should always be careful to keep properties of the character that are intrinsic to the character itself. Stuff that makes the character unique should not be taken out.

you should not make roy floatier, give everyone shines, etc. If you made all characters floaty, we would end up with brawl. This is why I think that even though pichu hurts itself, just reduce the damage but buff up other attributes.

one of the main reasons I like fighting games is because of variety. I want various play styles. I want interesting strategies.

I don't want all characters to have long combos, good projectiles, or incredible killing moves off the top. These should be strengths and not just standard to everyone.

however, i do want every single character to be tournament viable, just not in the same way

 

[ajp_anton]

ahh true say, but you still understand what im saying, his fast falling really hurts his recovery..

IMO, that should be fixed by other means. Having Marth a slowfaller and Roy a fastfaller is a great start to make them totally different characters.
For example, increase his aerial movement speed, make his fw+B help recovery more, make his up+B better... that kind of things.
Or maybe he could just have a bad recovery, but make him great on the stage.

 

[Bing]

IMO, that should be fixed by other means. Having Marth a slowfaller and Roy a fastfaller is a great start to make them totally different characters.
For example, increase his aerial movement speed, make his fw+B help recovery more, make his up+B better... that kind of things.
Or maybe he could just have a bad recovery, but make him great on the stage.

Well I dont agree with that make him amazing on stage and terrible recovery. However maybe give him a rising side-b? Basically something that will take him horizontal because his falling speed + Rising side B = ----------- Then his not so great up-b becomes of better use in terms of recovery.

 

[odinNJ]

> changing the DED
good way to nerf roy

 

[Bones0]

Dang, now that I think about it, a high tier sheik/zelda hybrid would be incredible.

If the switch between the two took like 2 frames (and kept momentum) and both had their strengths and weaknesses in the air and on ground, then a master of the hybrid could do instant switches between the two like 30 times a match to compensate which could lead to the most incredible combo videos ever created and the most spectacular play style ever conceived.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude...

 

[Bing]

By combos you Sheik gets off just to chase and fair/bair with Zelda

^In reference to the 2 frame change

 

[Strong Badam]

I'd play Project M

 

[Cummings]

Not all of us made the mistake of buying a Wii + Brawl :/

so instead, we dream.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Link and Bowser would like proper jump speeds. None of this 7 and 9 bullcrap.

Most of the mid and low tiers are missing 1-3 things and then their design becomes playable.

 

[Spyro]

I'd play Project M

Pretty much this.

 

[Impp]

Give all the low tiers an extra jump. (give Kirby like 7 more)