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Hyrule...Keep it or ban it?

andrewajt62

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
219
Location
Long Island, NY
I just bought a 64 console GS a week ago at a local game store =p

Anyway hyrule sucks that the heck am I supposed to do as jiggs if the person is on the other side of the stage and throwing stuff at me. Often me or the opponent just stand there and wait for an approach.

Also FD has the same problem as Brawl, some characters will get caught under the lip.
 

NixxxoN

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
3,726
Location
Barcelona
Pretty much what SheerMadness said. There arent enough stages in this game to ban Hyrule, and no stage is perfect.

With this "ban everything that isnt perfect" attitude we could ban Dreamland aswell because of the wind, and we should ban Pika for being so good and ban Link for having a sh*te recovery

Edit: Sector Z is way bigger than hyrule and with no platform. You cant really compare them for the size. You can camp on Hyrule but you are really limited compared to Sector Z. If someone camps you and you fall on their trap over and over again, its your own fault.

Anyway, im not defending campers, but if you face someone good like superboom you may try to use camping as a weapon to decrease the ****.
 

dandan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
the wind is a non issue in dreamland. the real issues there are the advantages pikachu and falcon get.
and the disadvantges chars like link get.
 

King Funk

Int. Croc. Alligator
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Nov 1, 2008
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Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
the wind is a non issue in dreamland. the real issues there are the advantages pikachu and falcon get.
and the disadvantges chars like link get.
I could say that Fox and Mario get heavy advantages on Hyrule. And that anyone who faces one or the other gets heavy approaching disadvantages.
 

SuPeRbOoM

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
4,509
Location
Edmonton, Alberta
so what are the disadvantages to dreamland compared to hyrule?

-people can gimp each other
-oh no falcon gets a boost

all I can think of really
 

L1ON

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
113
Location
Cleveland, OH (atm)
I like the idea of Hyrule as a counter pick. Yeah link gets '*****' on dreamland but it's the same reason those campy foxes suck everywhere else. They are too stage dependent. If all links knew how to play on dreamland they would be much better. But just the screen loading them there makes them shake in their boots.

I agree with boom in that if we were to move away from heavily picking hyrule as a neutral stage the overall content of competitive matches would improve. And we wouldn't become super "camp brothers 64" I believe it was lol...

Yep RAWR

also I'd like to open up discussions on everybody's favorite stage... ZEBES

I say counterpick! We need more stages. Acid/lava is annoying but even more predictable than arwings as the window rarely cuts off its visibility... And what other problems are there to this stage? Dark scary background? I don't feel like any particular characters have a great advantage on this stage. I mean ones that can move quicker obviously have a little advantage but it doesn't seem game breaking to me... Idk enlighten me please.

On another note the only stage I promote a full undying ban on is Mushroom Kingdom. It feels like I'm not even playing the right game when I'm there... Sector Z is just big, yoshi's would be fun without the clouds, and I sometimes dislike peach's (depending on the match up). But I play those stages without too much complaint.
 

Mr.BlackDog

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
49
Even though the Land of dreams is easily the best stage, I'd argue that there are no neutral stages in this game~ Besides, of course, Planet Zeeebz.

Awkward layout makes projectile abuse difficult, and constant lava **** makes camping tough. Pair this with a well rounded ceiling and decently sized death walls and you have yourself the proverbial Libra stage of smash 64. Everyone can be equally disadvantaged on a stunningly, stupid stage, and nothing says fairness like a lack of prejudice.(lava)


inb4 air camping.
inb4 "ur a troll"

Does anyone have the Gameshark code for Final Destination? do want
 

Frogles

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
536
Location
kuz's house
ban all stages but peaches castle! :D

but seriously i dont really like hyrule for a lot of the reasons you stated in first post. campers and defensive players can be pricks on any stage so i guess that isnt only an issue with hyrule (though it does make it easier for them) and tornadoes can be removed if we decide to do it. we just gotta deal with it due to lack of good stages.

i'd support dreamland becoming the only neutral. only problems are that ****er pika getting a boost and link taking a hit.
 

SuPeRbOoM

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Messages
4,509
Location
Edmonton, Alberta
This attribute has a HUGE weight on it.
Funny, because it has a lot less weight than what problems Hyrule has.

Yeah, DREAMland often becomes GIMPland if both players like to gimp. Its also interesting to do a less gimpy, more on-stage fighting imo. Hyrule is a good place for it
in a tournament setting, no one is asking for more "fun" in a match, but rather trying to beat their opponent by skill and not by luck and/or broken strategies.
 

NixxxoN

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
3,726
Location
Barcelona
in a tournament setting, no one is asking for more "fun" in a match, but rather trying to beat their opponent by skill and not by luck and/or broken strategies.
Even if its a tourney and people play to win, matches should be fun, because the more fun a game is, the more people would be interested on playing it. Hyrule makes it more varied. It adds more on-stage playing.

About the luck... it goes for both players, but i agree that random elements that can f*ck you up should be removed. However, Tornados are good for preventing people to camp too much on hyrule sides as someone pointed out.

And maybe im wrong but I think no strategy is broken if you know how to handle it... :O
The game has options to counter camping afaik
 

MattNF

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Messages
1,867
Location
Florida
Actually, what's wrong with Zebes as being a neutral? Seriously I can't think of anything wrong with it except it nerfs Jiggly a little bit

Sure lava can be frustrating but it's not unfair to one player like nados are. It's equally unfair!
 

Gammelnorsk

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
749
Actually, what's wrong with Zebes as being a neutral? Seriously I can't think of anything wrong with it except it nerfs Jiggly a little bit

Sure lava can be frustrating but it's not unfair to one player like nados are. It's equally unfair!
i agree with this man

this

man
 

Near²

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
132
I've been thinking lately that Hyrule itself promotes heavy camping making it broken to play on. I know Hyrule is highly favoured here as a neutral pick for a stage here in north america, but I honestly believe Hyrule is making this game spiral downwards into camp brothers 64. Before I begin, I would like to say I don't want Hyrule necessarily banned but kept so it's not a neutral anymore.

Problems that need to be addressed about Hyrule:

-Green slanted left groove
-Middle platforms
-Right side groove/Tent
-Air camping/stalling(Points throughout)
-Tornados!
-Stage size

Green slanted left groove: The left side of Hyrule, oh how I hate you so much! This side of the stage is quite often a dangerous zone to challenge campers at. It's a safe zone for campers because you cannot be punished by projectiles very efficiently. If you don't have a projectile? Well you are pretty much ****ed on approaching a person that is sitting there with their uptilt shield on(trollfacekirby). This place has a nice area to techchase though, can't complain about that if you're techchasing.

Middle platforms: A big problem I see with Hyrule's platforms is air camping and platform shield camping. Air camping can work wonders here with samus, jigglypuff, etc.. Shield camping or just camping the platforms in general can stop a game from progressing and/or stop most approach options. Say a samus is platform camping, what is a character like jiggly going to do? uair/nair against a samus dair? Not going to work! I believe the middle platforms are broken for air camping and just plain platform camping. Tornado here is ugly as well for disrupting games, causing gameplay changes to stir in someones favour if they didn't deserve it, lucky hit into tornado etc.

Right side groove/Tent This is the biggest problem area of this stage. Camping to get a combo or just camping to get a better position, this is the place you want to be if you want to have an adavantagous position on your opponent. This place features an arsenal of different combos you can do for each character easily by getting a hit or a grab. Most characters can get away with doing mostly only grabs to rack good percentage on, luigi, mario, dk, ness, fox, pikachu, can all do mostly only grab damage combos. The problem with throw only combos is that it you cannot DI the throws so hoping for them to **** up from it is something that shouldn't be happening, there should always be a choice of what you can do in a situation. Surviving to high percents is a minor problem in the tent area, but it's something that should be noted as well. Air camping, again this is a huge flaw with the design of this stage. Air camping can be achieved by staying on and around the top of the tent. Projectile camping from the tent area is known to happen with Fox and mario quite often making them the best in the area.

Tornados: So, these suckers are the worst environment disasters in this game. Tornados are capable of swallowing you up and tossing you back out for 14%. You can be stuck in a tornado and be struck by your opponent for additional damage, and may be able to attack you AFTER the tornado as well for a combo kill or just more damage. Tornados can appear in pressure situations to disrupt the gameplay. When you're hanging on the ledge and a tornado appears trapping you, that is broken because you will get punished for what you do no matter what, your options in this situation are either Z rolling up, dropping from the ledge and hoping to catch it again without going into the tornado, or going into the tornado. Randomly fast tornados swooping you up is dumb as well. Being hit into the tornado as said before.

Stage size: Hyrule is a big stage(derp), so why isn't it listed as a cp or ban yet? Sector Z is banned because it's big right? or is it because of tail wing camping? Anyways, at this point I would say Sector Z is less broken than Hyrule by landscape wise and terrain based.

So there you have it, why I think Hyrule should be considered as a cp or ban instead of a neutral. I may add more later for more references to specific events that happen here.

Discuss.
>complaining about camping
>plays brawl

does not compute

all i can say is don't get lured into the **** tent and don't get hit like a *******
 

Korrupshen

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
518
Location
dat place
tbh I've never played a camper on Hyrule. My matches in Hyrule we're pretty much straight foward only problem I can state from my experience is nados, but thats not that hard to remove. I still have the code....I think.
 

Dash_Fox

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
557
Location
California, Sacramento
tbh I've never played a camper on Hyrule. My matches in Hyrule we're pretty much straight foward only problem I can state from my experience is nados, but thats not that hard to remove. I still have the code....I think.
Then play more people. If someone wants to win they're gonna camp like hell.
 

King Funk

Int. Croc. Alligator
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Messages
2,972
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Hm... I don't really know.

I have to try playing more with the others on Kongo Jungle but it's hard because virtually everyone complains about how the stage has annoying colors and it's hard to see, etc. It's hard for me to determine whether it's more balanced than Dreamland and Hyrule.

For me, Fox vs Falcon on Dreamland is 50-50 but 70-30 on Hyrule.
But then, Link vs Falcon on Dreamland is 20-80 and 45-55 on Hyrule.
 

ciaza

Smash Prodigy
Premium
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
2,759
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Australia
I'd be happy for Zebes to be neutral. The acid acts as an anti-gimp function at times, albeit you can combo them pretty easily if they get in it and if they get in it at low percents and have poor recovery it can easily take them up to high percents.
 

dch111

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
472
Peach's castle, Dreamland, and Kongo Jungle aren't that bad. Gimping isn't that bad. It simply amplifies the punishment you get for your mistakes. Camping tends to turn the game into either tag or trench warfare altogether.
 

Tambor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
223
Location
Santiago, Chile
how could you possibly know this when none of us have gone head to head?

oh wait you cant :(

don't do the hate bro. just sayin'.
Geez, you completely missed the point. You didn't relate what I said to the topic that is being discussed.
I said it because Japan and South America usually play on dreamland, because both areas already went through this discussion. I didn't mean it in a "this area is better than that area in smash" way, because I know that is impossible to prove.
 

T1g3rbombz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
284
everyone stop Q.Q.ing and fuking l2p and i pwn all campers and anyone on this stage...IMBAAAA
 

rawrimamonster

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
745
Location
dearborn heights MI
Like I've said to many others (and I'm a fox main), i'd rather get gimped on DL than play on hiderule.

Also, another stage (which I just tested in teams and last week in 1v1s) is the yoshi's island (no clouds), the kill borders are far enough off the sides of the stage that its legit distances, the ledges arent completely gayed, its a big stage with lots of room to move.

Only problem I can truly see with it is it can promote air camping because of the height of the platforms.

The only reason I see people wanting hyrule to remain a neutral stage outside of counterpick is:

1: they need the combo pit to extend their combos/feel safe
2: they need the tornado for unearned pressure situations/free kills
3: they need hyrule for their epeen to feel safe(lol)

Being realistic though Link and Ness are dependant on hyrule because of their recoveries. Thats all I can come up with that is a TRUE, MAJOR factor.
 

Kefit

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 2, 2003
Messages
357
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Bellevue, WA
Don't get me wrong guys, I love Hyrule as a stage to play on. I just get tired of being the better camper to win though, Kefit can side with me on this x_x.
Yes.

Yes I can.

I'm sick as hell of all the camping on Hyrule, especially since Jel and my other regular Smash buddies are starting to get pretty good at it. All of Boom's points are accurate, and I've had thoughts along these lines for a while. Especially those tornadoes. **** those tornadoes.

That being said, I almost feel like I'm cheating when I play with my Pikachu on Dreamland. From a purely competitive standpoint, in which the goal is to promote skill-based, non-camping play, Dreamland is doubtlessly the superior stage. Unfortunately, this stage also promotes greater imbalance between the characters. Then again, imbalance between the character choices is not necessarily unhealthy for the competitive aspect of the game - just look at Melee, or MvC2 (rofl).

Moreover, it's not like Isai ***** me any less with his Link on Dreamland than he does on Hyrule.

So yeah, i think I agree with Boom. If people want to play characters that are disadvantaged on Dreamland, then they are free to do so. Just like people are free to use Mewtwo in Melee.
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
More like Yoshiland.

Yoshi gets better vs every char in the game (Falcon might be debatable) when taking them to dreamland.

Yes even Pikachu.
 

Olikus

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
2,451
Location
Norway
Peach castle, congo jungle and yoshi island without the stupid clouds are all playable stages. Gets boring with only camping hyrule and smallsizegimp dreamland. The mainfault with those stages are that they have been played too much. If we switch with 5 stages instead of (allmost) only 2 you cant complain on gimp, recovery or camping cus then you have so many options to deal with.
 

dandan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
play vs a really good kirby with someone like samus/link on peach's castle and say it is fun :S
 

NixxxoN

Smash Master
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Jun 16, 2008
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Barcelona
Hyrule, Dreamland, Congo Jungle, Planet Zebes without lava and even Yoshi story without clouds are all very playable stages and I dont understand why people complain. Also you could add Final Destination assuming people know the cheats. Peach Castle is fun but its not good imo to play seriously
 

felipe_9595

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
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Chile
In chile hyrule was choosen as a counterpick more than 8000 ages ago

Agree with boomfan, Hyrule is not neutral, tornadoes, wall combos, heavy camp, i agree with everything that he said
 

DemonicInfluence

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
512
The main reason I dislike dreamland as the only neutral is because against someone with a spike, those platforms are just retardedly good (i'm talking falcon as the main example).
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
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May 19, 2009
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I don't like peach's because it takes the edges out of the game. In any other stage (Zebes and MK to a lesser extent) a big part of the game is safely getting to ledges, getting off of them, and stopping opponents from doing both of those. Peach's takes all of that out of the equation. Keep it counterpick.

RE Imnotpro- Yeah, DL will make falcon a lot better; question is, is it worth that to prevent all the anti-hyrule points enumerated by boom? I'd say yes. Fox is good on Hyrule, falcon's good on DL. Making Hyrule a Counterpick gives falcon an advantage, but it's all relative, because a game where falcon's better isn't necessarily a bad game, whereas a game where there's more camping decidedly is.

I wasn't at my most lucid there, but do you understand what I'm saying? If everyone played on DL already, then "falcon will be nerf'd" would be an argument against making Hyrule neutral, by your logic.

Ima start choosing DL whenever I go on Galaxy =p.

Edit: if Kongo is Neutral, BF has to be neutral. If a stage with all that weird crap and L's oD can be neutral, a stage that nerfs Ness/DK and has L's oD should be neutral too.
 

Professor :3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
226
why do people hate gimping so much? seriously, you're SUPPOSED to get your opponent off of the stage and kill them.
 

DemonicInfluence

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
512
I don't like peach's because it takes the edges out of the game. In any other stage (Zebes and MK to a lesser extent) a big part of the game is safely getting to ledges, getting off of them, and stopping opponents from doing both of those. Peach's takes all of that out of the equation. Keep it counterpick.

RE Imnotpro- Yeah, DL will make falcon a lot better; question is, is it worth that to prevent all the anti-hyrule points enumerated by boom? I'd say yes. Fox is good on Hyrule, falcon's good on DL. Making Hyrule a Counterpick gives falcon an advantage, but it's all relative, because a game where falcon's better isn't necessarily a bad game, whereas a game where there's more camping decidedly is.

I wasn't at my most lucid there, but do you understand what I'm saying? If everyone played on DL already, then "falcon will be nerf'd" would be an argument against making Hyrule neutral, by your logic.

Ima start choosing DL whenever I go on Galaxy =p.

Edit: if Kongo is Neutral, BF has to be neutral. If a stage with all that weird crap and L's oD can be neutral, a stage that nerfs Ness/DK and has L's oD should be neutral too.
Personally, I don't see camping as that big of a problem. There's always a rule against excessive camping. If people are doing that, just get them DQed for that. PRoblem solved.
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
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Think back to that first ladder match we played- Falcon on fox on Hyrule. You were ahead 3 stock to 1, and then I stood on the left side and basically just Usmash'd you whenever you tried to approach. That's the kind of thing DL would prevent.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
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Lille, France
Funny, because it has a lot less weight than what problems Hyrule has.



in a tournament setting, no one is asking for more "fun" in a match, but rather trying to beat their opponent by skill and not by luck and/or broken strategies.
You're kind of contradicting yourself here, if there's no place for fun, and the only purpose is to win, then there are no broken strategies, only strategies that lead to victory or defeat, nothing else.

As for Hyrule, if the other player is camping the tent you can still land on it, and somehow apply pressure on him until he gets out.
I agree however that approaching/pressuring someone on the left side is very hard...Characters like Fox who take a huge boost from the tent and the flat stage are very bad when it comes to that part of the stage.
The problem of the tornadoes is definitely the most stupid thing when it comes to Hyrule. A tornado randomly popping and breaking a combo / helping it / killing both players happens quite often, and **** up characters like Jigglypuff who already have trouble with the stage in general even further.
I think Hyrule and Dreamland should remain as the two neutral stages, with both players choosing where to start the set, or going into a RPS if they disagree. There aren't enough stages to remove Hyrule.
 
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