Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

[2-DJeff]

Omg fox is so free. Falco can be annoying to chase first stock

 

[Smoom77]

I agree with what Hylian said. Falco can only do so much. Just avoid going to a stage with platforms.

And for fox, just like Hylian said, he has more mix-ups and if you mess up it often is something he can follow up on easily (like dair both of you to utilt/upsmash).

 

[Sky Pirate]

Howdy, Ice Climbers mains! Olimars are discussing you guys.

Also, WHY IS MINK EVERYWHERE? XD

 

[Mr. game and watch]

^ LOL he is!

 

[2-DJeff]

I find it way easier to fight falco on platforms. I use platforms to up air him on and to avoid lasers. Also to ib camp him

 

[DtJ S2n]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13231491

ICs! DKs are discussing the match-up and we would appreciate the other side's comments. It's hard to believe anybody still cares about you guys isn't it.

 

[Prawn]

Ok, this is what I know. (everything futurewrestler said is right)

- Desyncing is NOT good in this matchup. It will only **** you up. However, short hop approaching blizzards spaced REALLY well may have the capacity to block nades being thrown at you.

- Full hop ice block makes snake approach (or at least deters his camping) because they make him shield at awkward times and ****ing up his grenade cooking. Ice blocks also can stop snake from fsmashing your nana once he's separated you both.

- Squall hammer should be used more in this matchup then most others. But you have to realize that:
1) You have to squall the upper part of his body to not explode the grenade
2) Squall is good for moving away from bad situations. And there will be a lot of them.
3) Only squall if you are sure you will hit or shield poke. And don't just try and run around trying to squall him like an idiot.

- Squalling onto the stage isn't the smartest idea. Instead use upb more. However as FW said, you're now on the edge. This is where squall comes into play. If you are on smashville edge, wait for the moving platform and squall onto it. On Battlefield, Squall from the ledge to the top platform. On Yoshi's, squall to the middle platform as far from snake as possible. For the other stages, and in instances on every stage, you're going to just have to time the squall and try and pass through him. Simply standing up on the ledge I do a lot now.

- Do Hylian's Patented Snake-Killing-Whilst-Avoiding-Grenades CG(tm). When you grab them, immediately dthrow again into nana grabbing. Then immediately run past snake and pivot grab with Popo. You have to run a little farther then you think because IC pivot grab range is actually pretty sexy.

- When below snake, the Uairs are key. If the try to airdodge, fall with them and uair them out of it.

- The most likely way you're going to grab a good snake player is by pivot grabbing him when he's landing. It covers him simply falling, airdodgding, or bairing. If they start b-sticking grenades, this leaves them in a vulnerable position. I'm not sure if anyone's tried this yet but if they do that and you grab them, wait JUST the right time to cook the nade and then uthrow them. If they airdodge to avoid the grenade it's a free Belay. Probably very difficult to pull of though.

- Snake can't pull nades if you hobble them the right way.

- Never roll into or behind a snake player.

- Don't challenge nair. You have nothing to beat it with.

- Your dair beats his usmash explodey thing. However in some situations you're just going to want to squall away. **EXTREMELY USEFUL**

- The point of juggling him in the air is to uair him a bunch to get him to airdodge into the ground so you can grab him.

- If you grab snake, KILL HIM. If you let Snake out at 180% he's still dangerous to IC's.

There will always be more to learn for at least a while.

Meep knows a ridiculous amount of crap on this matchup. He'll chime in later probably.

I believe lain is awesome and almost all of this applies now.

 

[DeLux]

At some point, I intend to either get the matchup discussions we're having now exported or at least convince the ICs to copy and paste their own intellectual property (aka their own posts) into this thread

 

[ch33s3]

Snake info vomit commence:

When snake is trying to camp you with grenades, use an ice block to try and pop it. If you can't, you'll have plenty of time to either jump over (mix up your landings with squall, fast fall, and slow fall so you don't get snakedashed) or just shield and roll away (from the nade, you may want to roll towards, but not into Snake sometimes). Only catch second nades, but make sure you consistently catch second nades and throw them back, the ability to add shield pressure for free using his own nade is amazing.

Bait explosives. If a C4 is on a platform, run towards it to make him think about blowing it up, if he does, you know it's coming and can shield or avoid it. If you can bait the explosive just right, you can punish the detonation activation, or they'll jump and detonate so you can juggle.

When Snake is in the air, take free uairs, but occasionally bait a nade pull or airdodge and fall with them as you nair, you can sometimes put them in a position where you can read a grab.

ISSDI tilts. Do it.

If you get hit by a ftilt, you can SDI it behind him before the second ftilt comes out. This obviously requires prediction, but it's good to keep in the bag of tricks.

If you're close to snake and he ftilts (or you ISSDI in), you can grab between hits.

Don't stress over the grab, uair to a million -> bair or smash works just fine.

Jab is amazing at low to mid percents, it sends them at a very awkward angle that can lead to follow ups or grabs, go do it and have a snake hold up, down, and away for a while so you know where he'll be.

If Snake is recovering high, threaten to uair him off the cypher to make him airdodge off and then fsmash him. If he recovers low, have one climber edge hog and the other smash or dtilt depending on positioning. If you force him to c4 himself (pretty rare), don't get fancy, just hit him with an ice block after he drops it, that will either kill him or force to him to c4 again, and you can get immense amounts of totally safe damage like that.

I got distracted writing this so I forgot a lot of what I wanted to talk about, but I'll come back and edit some more stuff in I'm sure.

 

[Attila_]

i've always thought snake wins this matchup.

his camp game is too solid. he never has to approach, and even if popo manages to avoid explosives, nana often won't. and once she's hit, she's in the air...

his ftilt is faster than nana's sheild. she can't block it unless you predict before the snake player actually does anything.

obviously, ics have the grab, and this obviously brings them back into the matchup. it is most definitely their saving grace though; without it, they'd get ***** really badly.

one thing is, though, that you shouldn't be expecting to grab snake at low percents. if he's smart, he'll always have a nade covering him on the ground (cooked slightly, so hylian's grab won't work). you do have a chance to grab, however, when he's recovering and trying to get back to ground. given that all snakes aerials are shield grabbable, and his airdodge is pivotgrabbable, you really should be able to get a grab from a read or two here. not overly difficult.

also, snake's nair has NO priority if you space correctly. his foot sticks out further than his hitbox, and gets beated by everything that is slightly (and i mean really slightly) disjointed from the front. very big misconception.

55:45 snake imo.

 

[MVD]

Tough yet fun MU

 

[Prawn]

Eye opening mvd.

I'll do a writeup tomorrow so get your opinions in today

 

[sirchadakiss18]

50:50 on Neutrals IMO, as ICs as my solid 2ndary, hobbling is an instant win in this matchup, soon as you back throw with Popo you should be buffering jump with nana, then ice block + Forward smash re-grab.

Never lost to a Snake with this strat and don't plan too either, other chain grabs in this MU are null IMO unless you're on a stage like delphinos.

Play gay.

-Japan-

 

[Myollnir]

50:50 on Neutrals IMO, as ICs as my solid 2ndary, hobbling is an instant win in this matchup, soon as you back throw with Popo you should be buffering jump with nana, then ice block + Forward smash re-grab.

Mashable at low %, it might be escaped sometimes, I don't know the exact input though. Also, it can't be done on slopes. Hobbling sucks.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Hobbling is awesome, pay attention to the slopes, you can do it up them.

 

[MVD]

Go away ESAM

 

[HoRnZ]

I think its 40:60. I lost to 2 snakes yesturday in the tourney >.< only got 7.
Japan only plays with neutral stages, no **** smash hobbling ***** xP
I use it on neutrals too. If he smash DIs, just turn around with nana charging any smash xP

 

[MVD]

I think its barely even may be in ICs favor especially cause hobbling is auto stock against snake

 

[HoRnZ]

every grab is an auto stock, or at least it should be ^^
snakes grenade game destroy ics if you ever grab them, theres probably a grenade on the floor or in his hand. Snake doesnt have to approach, at all. If the ics ever approach, they probably get punished hard.

 

[MVD]

No your wrong lol ESAM proved that to be false easily

 

[DeLux]

Saying "you can hobble them" as a way of making the matchup in our favor is ridiculous.
MK is probably the least dropped CG in the game but we don't call him a matchup in our favor.


A grab should be assumed that it's a stock. The important part, and the part that determines the matchup, is what we can do outside of grab

 

[MVD]

Snake is easy to grab if your smart with grenades

 

[HoRnZ]

grabbing them out of a nade pull, especially when theyre just camping right on the edge is a bad idea

 

[Roller]

HoRnZ, I'd recommend learning the Hylian grenade dodging cg (mentioned in Lain's quote). It's easy to learn and has helped me continue cging while avoiding nades numerous times.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Saying "you can hobble them" as a way of making the matchup in our favor is ridiculous.
MK is probably the least dropped CG in the game but we don't call him a matchup in our favor.


A grab should be assumed that it's a stock. The important part, and the part that determines the matchup, is what we can do outside of grab

Why is it that everyone is ignoring this and still talking about the grab?

 

[Prawn]

yo dawgs firizzle

if i didnt mess up my grabs vs snake id have beaten some really good snakes. its a big part of the matchup.

the stuff you need to learn in my opinion as far as grabs go:

-meeps grenade throwaway cg

-hylians double pivot(easier when the nade isnt in the primo position for throwing it away)

-smash hobble/hobbling for higher percents when the stage allows(because it IS easier imo, i think the best is to dthrow-fthrow across the stage, bthrow at end and repeat otherwise. Bthrow -> fthrow is possible but I almost always screw it up at higher percents for some reason.

If everyone was as on point as they could be in these areas we'd all be beating snakes a lot more IMO. practice the grab a lot for 20 minutes if you know you're playing one. Its helped me a lot. Some other stuff I've noticed is side b ***** to land and to recover, just have to be really smart. Use it like mks use nados getting unpunished, move around a lot and mindgame. obviously land so you get no lag.

the only desync that ive gotten to work a lot is the approaching sh/fh ice block. it can stop all grenades pretty well from what ive seen. sometimes depending on spacing/whats going on with explosives/the stage you can better off dtilting a snake rather then rushing in for a grab, the dtilt may set up a tech chase or a good offstage opportunity.With ice blocks, dtilt, bairs, ICs can get snake into a bad position off stage. Whats more is that we can edge guard him. Fair spikes ****, just try to be safe cause nana can get desync'd and die :/ its worth it though and you can learn the spacing to keep them sync'd.

snakes will plant a mine on the stage, and grab the edge so you're forced to hit one of them. it sucks really bad. i think you can land and shield fast enough with side b. but you'll get ledgehopped bair'd out of that sometimes >_< it sucks. recovering low sucks. dair through usmash. popo cg-> dtilt -> fair ***** snakes. Sopo can get a lot of damage in this matchup

thats all i got for now. I'll do a writeup tonight hopefully with everyones info. correct me on anything thats silly.

edit: OH and when uairing snakes that are on platforms with nades use the very edge of the hitbox to not blow it up, gotta space it good.

 

[DeLux]

You can shield grab utilt if they do it to you on a platform btw

The more you know

 

[Prawn]

You can shield grab utilt if they do it to you on a platform btw

The more you know

this is awesome must try

 

[Roller]

Why does that only work on a platform, Lux?

 

[Hylian]

Why does that only work on a platform, Lux?

Probably because the move hitting under you won't make you slide backwards. Also it might work on the ground but I doubt it unless you powershield.

 

[DeLux]

Utilt has less horizontal range at the top of the hitbox on the late frames. So if one were to get hit by this while facing snake and input an ISSDI > Grab, they would grab snake lol

I don't think it works on utilt grounded if spaced properly because of that whole horizontal range property.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Lol you would grab his foot? That's amazing.

 

[DeLux]

Yeah, I have replays of Yikarur proving it to me because I actually didn't believe him.

I've actually been debating playing the matchup where I just sit on a platform and wait for Snake to commit to an option (like utilt), and then grabbing it because of this gimmick lol

If I commit to it in a friendly and get it to work, matchup changing?

 

[l!nk_aut]

Get into ftilt/fsmash/dtilt/dashattack/bair/grab - range by avoiding all explosives and don't get ftilted/utilted/grabbed by trying so and you win. lol. Unfortunatly there is no safe way to do so.

The main goal should be to get near Snake and do as much damage as you can. Going for the grabs only won't do you good in that matchup. I always try to get near Snake (about blizz-range) to force him to escape by dacus, jumping, approaching. He's the most vulnerable there imo.

I'd say 6:4 in Snake's favour. Since there is not really a safe option for you and he punishes really hard.


edit: get a video up of grabbing that utilt :D

 

[B0NK]

Don't stress over the grab, uair to a million -> bair or smash works just fine.

Very important, keeping a safe lead in this match-up is the most important thing in this match-up. Taking too many risk (really any mis-read risk) can cause you to lose your lead very quickly.

Grab is more important for killing Snake at decent percentages, since b-air and smashes don't kill him till very high percentages. So start to keep your f-smash, u-smash, and b-air fresh once he reaches around 100% and save them for when he reaches those moves KO percentages.

his ftilt is faster than nana's sheild. she can't block it unless you predict before the snake player actually does anything.

You can actually avoid this by using your dash to keep Nana behind you, but at certain spacings since nana will sync closer to you the further you run. And at lower percentages Nana doesn't go anywhere even if she gets hit.



My opinion on desyncs in the match-up is that they are very usable, but at a spacing where Snake feels he can't safely use his nades, or snake feels pressure to try another option.

I use the spacing outside of f-tilt range, cause snake may try to punish the desyncs with a DACUS. That's what you are baiting for as well, cause if snake uses the DACUS, instead of desyncing out of the dash you can pivot grab the DACUS before the mortar is launched (or even stutter step F-smash if you only have SoPo and snake is at KO percentage). If snake doesn't commit to the DACUS, you are at a good range to desync where snake can't simply toss grenades at you. (Think how Kakera used his desyncs at this range to apply shield pressure and safely damage snake). It's also can pressure snake to move into the air or towards the ledge which are both better positions for IC's.

You can punish a predicted grenade pull with dash grab, as you will make snake drop the grenade and slide away from the grenade on the floor. Just be sure to d-throw > d-throw further away from the grenade. If you are near the ledge where there isn't space to get away from the grenade, using d-throw > footstool (or f-air/f-smash if you just want damage) him off the stage puts him in a poor position. If he's right on the ledge, you shouldn't try to punish it with grab, and instead simply using IBs to force him to fall off and grab the ledge or to try to jump over you. The point of all this is to have a way to punish snake for always pulling a grenade when IC's get close to him.

If he's not using grenade pull, then now you are ISSDI-ing tilts, and watching for his pivot and standing grab. All which become easier to avoid and punish when you don't have to worry about the grenade being on the ground next to him.

Footstooling snake when he has been forced to C4 recover is amazing because it's free damage for you as he has to do it over and over again for each successful footstool.

Everything else has been pretty much said. Juggling is amazing on snake, make your grab attempts count so you don't get punished for whiffs, stay safe and maintain your lead because snake + momentum is very difficult to come back from.

Match-up is a solid 60:40 Snake. Snake can kill Nana fast or at least put her at a high percent to make her easy to separate over and over again. SoPo gets completely ***** by snake, and should also never be able to recover without getting hit if the snake knows what he is doing. (Take the free damage with SoPo if he for some reason changes to a risky playstyle just because he thinks he can CAUSE SOPO IS JUST THAT TERRIBLE, RIGHT? >.>) Snake often puts IC's into a rock-paper-scissor position where he has an easier time either winning, or at least hard to punish when he loses. Snake can kill much earlier and with much safer options than we can. Without Nana and the grab, snake is very hard to kill. The match-up is easier and less stressful for snake than it is for IC's.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything, I do admit I am rusty at the match-up.

 

[Smoom77]

I definitely agree with everything you said.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

@_@ I like how you told us how to beat everything then went "But it's Snake's advantage"

You didn't even mention the fact that ICs outcamp Snake...

 

[B0NK]

@_@ I like how you told us how to beat everything then went "But it's Snake's advantage"

You didn't even mention the fact that ICs outcamp Snake...

Easier for Snake than it is for us, just like how I'd say D3 match-up is 60:40 IC's because it's easier for us then it is for D3 =P

And I believe IC's out camp every snake except for Candy's. And that's the dedicated snake main I have played the most ^_^

aka I have a mixed opinion on that >.<

 

[HoRnZ]

HoRnZ, I'd recommend learning the Hylian grenade dodging cg (mentioned in Lain's quote). It's easy to learn and has helped me continue cging while avoiding nades numerous times.

I use it all the time, but if hes standing right at the ledge, grabbing them with you facing the ledge wont help.
what I usually do is hobble shield it so he blows up.
if you dont know what I mean here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RylZZTctADE
somewhere around 0:15 seconds

I still think its a good 60:40, if the snake plays well. Still one of our hardest (if not the hardest) MU.
If snake plays good, he can cover all our options to get in for a grab.
I just suck at the MU big time xP

I also lost to 2 snakes in the bracket, and beat players who beat those snakes in the tourney last week

 

[Attila_]

snakes breaking desynches with dacus? we stopped dacussing years ago. only as means of punishing lag at a distance or an opponent landing on a platform. never used on grounded opponents ever.

You can shield grab utilt if they do it to you on a platform btw

The more you know

i learnt this when a cpu mk did it on me trololol