Ice Climbers Matchup Thread*Closed*

[deepseadiva]

The Peaches have just begun discussing Ice Climbers for this week!
Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion. Week 18: Ice Climbers

Overall, the feeling is Peach is once again a hard counter to the ICs.

We're also discussing counterpick stages against the little 'moes.
Peachy Counterpicks: ICE CLIMBERS - Where will they die?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Falco however still has some annoying lasers and SH Phantasm, not to mention that he can also reflect Blizzard and Ice Blocks. I think Falco would win if he plays extremely campy.

Campy Falcos can be annoying, but they do damage at a really slow rate and have a really hard time KOing ICs, while ICs only need one grab to KO Falco. It doesn't help Falco that pretty much all of his viable KO options can be punished with a grab.

 

[DMG]

Campy Falcos can be annoying, but they do damage at a really slow rate and have a really hard time KOing ICs, while ICs only need one grab to KO Falco. It doesn't help Falco that pretty much all of his viable KO options can be punished with a grab.

True, true. I didn't think too hard about Falco killing the IC's, but now that I think of it he really has a hard time killing.

So what do you think, 55/45 or 60/40 for IC's? I really doubt they counter him anymore than that, Falco's not as helpless/tool less as the characters IC's go 70/30 against.

Also, how would Falco do if instead of trying to flat out kill you, he just tries to camp/stall and run out the clock? If he's just camping away and never trying anything risky, would it be fairly plausible for him to win on time? I've asked a few people that and I've gotten mixed replies.

 

[B0mbe1c]

If hes extremely campy and hit majority of his lasers while barely getting hit by ICs, he would win, based on percentages.
I'd say 55/45 ICs just because Falco has LAZ0RZ, and other annoying properties.

 

[choknater]

There are ways to get past the laser. This is where the IC's B moves really come in handy.

 

[lain]

Falco gets ***** by IC's. next question?

 

[chewyy]

question: how the hell is yoshi vs IC's a close match up?
This is freaking Yoshi we're talking about.

 

[ChibiIceClimberz]

Okay... x.x But I'm guessing Yoshi is a hard matchup I guess or I'm wrong.... I'll read and I'll put the quote here on trying to answer those.

Well first of all, they're pretty well matched. Yoshi does better in the air, while IC's does better on the Ground, and have more versatile specials. Problem number one is that Yoshi is probably the best separating character against the IC's. Besides his obvious Egg Lay, His Ftilt, Bair, SideB, UpB Eggs, Ground DownB, Quick Discarding with Grabs, and even his Jab can also separate them easily. The main problem is that once Nana is in the air, Yoshi can very easily follow Nana with a 3 Hit Uair WoP for an easy kill with her relatively dumb AI, which in most cases you are unable to follow to save her.

Problem number Two is that Yoshi can gimp the IC's recovery so well, it's redicious. His Dair can cancel out your UpB. What makes it worse is that it desync's it, so if you panic, both you and Nana will do their UpB at the same time, but won't attach to eachother, Not to mention if you do take your time to readjust, Yoshi will have enough time to Edgehog, making you ditch Nana in most cases. It's the same if you're using your SideB. Dair also works, but Eggs are even worse. If you get hit by an egg when you're recovering with your SideB, it will cause you to scatter, and once again, cause a Desync, which will make Nana drop like a rock if you Panic and don't readjust. Course readjusting could also lead to an edgeguard If Yoshi follows up fast enough.

Course, they still have the legendary Infinite, but It's hard to snag an approaching Yoshi due to his fast horizontal speed, going past a shield grab if it happens. Plus a good Yoshi can deal with Nana easily, so you really won't have many chances doing such. Anyways, That's my view on it. I say about a 2 on your scale. We have 6:4 on ours, and I'm not going to lie, Infinites are scary, but he has so many ways to take out Nana, a good Yoshi usually doesn't need to worry about that.

Hhm... Egg Lay and Egg Roll beat up the ICs? I thought shieldgrabbing Egg Roll is a piece of cake and Egg Lay... lol... I think this person thinks that Yoshi only eats Popo to get Nana to being attack. Doesn't that person know that Nana can be eaten too so Popo can beat out Yoshi and Nana being in the egg getting out? And since Nana has bad AI, I wouldn't think she'd get out easily in the egg, so I guess she can't be sent flying from Yoshi's attacks when she's in the egg, but of course... when she's attack inside the egg the egg may break out already. (When I was reading this part, I got confused x.x) And in addition I thought it was easy to get out quickly and when Popo is inside the egg while Nana is out being attacked by Yoshi, she can just use any move to attack him automatically, but due to her bad AI, I'm guessing she'll be knocked out but getting out is easier from the egg can destroy Yoshi, unless you can attack to Yoshi fast when he's spiking or beating up Nana out of the edge. :/
And I don't get the f-tilt part, I never knew it was to separate easily.

About the Egg Throw on the Squall when Nana "scatters" or I should say death fall after the recovery, you can use use Belay to teleport Nana back to you due to Belay having a great distance to save for Nana when far away, and when Nana's near you during her death fall, use Squall to get back.
I also get the part when the ICs' Belay gets hit by an Egg Throw and he/she said, "His Dair can cancel out your UpB. What makes it worse is that it desync's it. Both you and Nana will do their UpB at the same time, but won't attach to eachother", but.... I don't believe that, he/she must've forgotten their Squall, and although it desynchs it, do an airdodge quickly and do a Squall, and since Squall has an incredible vertical distance, I guess they're okay.

Hhm... I just think my answers are wrong lol, but TBH on the part where they gimp the ICs, I've tried those when I fought a Yoshi player spamming Egg Throw.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yoshi sucks at approaching the ICs. It think it's an easy match-up.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

updated. so i decided to do weekly matchup discussion,this week, peach, after that we'll go in alphebetical order instead of just randomly picking(scince eveyone would prolly just ask about high tier characters)(also a good summary of the discussion for the front page would be great nya~)

 

[FrozenHobo]

peach... her fair is her killing move. another attack to look out for is toad (activates with ice blocks, blizzard, belay, etc.). Also, she can stall by floating off the side and then using umbrella to edge hog/hit from bellow. he short hopping to try and mindgame really doesn't do much (sorry chibi, but you just look like a spaz). if you just keep a level head and think through your approach/timing its an easy fight with few surprises.

 

[gantrain05]

peach... her fair is her killing move. another attack to look out for is toad (activates with ice blocks, blizzard, belay, etc.). Also, she can stall by floating off the side and then using umbrella to edge hog/hit from bellow. he short hopping to try and mindgame really doesn't do much (sorry chibi, but you just look like a spaz). if you just keep a level head and think through your approach/timing its an easy fight with few surprises.

except the iceys really don't have any approach on a smart patient peach, i view it as an easy match on my side of the discussion, my peach really doesn't have problems with the iceys.

 

[smaci92]

a lot of peach's I've played tend to float a lot...this can be very predictable, so you can be ready to attack her with a rising squall, or short hopped blizzards, or an aerial

...but I'm no peach expert...that's just one of the things I really noticed

 

[FrozenHobo]

except the iceys really don't have any approach on a smart patient peach, i view it as an easy match on my side of the discussion, my peach really doesn't have problems with the iceys.

i'd say its probably 50:50.

i an tear through a peach if they mess up a little, but yes, toad screws up approaching options... except for triggering it prematurely and then punishing the end lag....

 

[gantrain05]

i'd say its probably 50:50.

i an tear through a peach if they mess up a little, but yes, toad screws up approaching options... except for triggering it prematurely and then punishing the end lag....

oh yeah that sucks, i won't even use toad on stage because of that, only when someone is trying to come out and gimp me...(i know gimp peach lol) it leaves alot less lag in the air and acts as a stall.

 

[Morrigan]

a lot of peach's I've played tend to float a lot...this can be very predictable, so you can be ready to attack her with a rising squall, or short hopped blizzards, or an aerial)

Yeah...remember they can ATTACK while floating, it's not like she's just floating there open for easy attacks. Peach has a lot of approaching options from the air and add high priority aerials to that.

 

[Admiral Pit]

So I guess I was late for the Pit vs ICs Matchup? It says 6:4 your favor
Sigh, but continue with your matchup discussion on Peach and let me know in advance when it's coming.

 

[smaci92]

Yeah...remember they can ATTACK while floating, it's not like she's just floating there open for easy attacks. Peach has a lot of approaching options from the air and add high priority aerials to that.

ya, forgot to say that too lol. so in other words, be unpredictable if you're going to attack her while she's floating.

 

[Toon Senshi]

I belive the matchup with Pit, Peach & Toon Link should be changed.

Pit: 4:6.
Peach: 7:3.
Toon Link: 6:4.

I fail in giving my reasons, but some may agree.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The IC definitely have an advantage over Peach, probably 6:4. She is just so easy to shieldgrab... Also, over the past few months the IC have slowly been getting better at the marth matchup, so now its probably about 55:45 or 6:4.

Wait what? You can't be serious. Peach that spaces correct you are not shield grabbing, you are not DDD. The Peach'es you do that to ether don't know the match up, suck have poor spacing.

And no way in blue hell they have the advantage, not even close.

IC's are definitely good against Marth. With Peach it can be pretty close if she has good float spacing with her dairs and fairs. Glide toss to jab is also really hard to react to.

I'd saaay...

60:40 on Marth
55:45 or 50:50 on Peach

60:40 Peach. If not for that chain grab I say 70:30

I agree that the ICs have an advantage over Marth. I'd say it's at least 55:45 ICs favor. I think ICs Vs. Peach is pretty even; good Peaches are not easy to shield grab at all, lol.

Not even at all

It's not an easy match-up for Peach; it's quite even.

Not easy, take away thier grabs (which Peach can do alot and 50% of thier game is gone. they are mostly about grabs, If Peach avoids those, you dont have much left. lets be serious here.

I dare anyone to beat a good/top Peach player without a chain grab and come back to me.

a lot of peach's I've played tend to float a lot...this can be very predictable, so you can be ready to attack her with a rising squall, or short hopped blizzards, or an aerial

...but I'm no peach expert...that's just one of the things I really noticed

We are doing our job, we float so you can't chain grab us. Same time we can space and fight you in the air. there is a diffenece between useless floating and smart floating.

Floating>grabs

 

[momochuu]

I told you it's no use.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Do this for me then. Show me an ICE fighting Good/great Peaches without chain grabbing and beating them

Show me an IC fighting good/great/top players without chain grabbing so much and beating them

Until I see that I will just say you are bais IC cause you play them. And I will stand by what I say, IC= grabs.

 

[momochuu]

Do this for me then. Show me an ICE fighting Good/great Peaches without chain grabbing and beating them

Show me an IC fighting good/great/top players without chain grabbing so much and beating them

Until I see that I will just say you are bais IC cause you play them. And I will stand by what I say, IC= grabs.

I'm not biased. It's just no use trying to convince a person who's opinion is set in stone.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Do this for me then. Show me an ICE fighting Good/great Peaches without chain grabbing and beating them

Show me an IC fighting good/great/top players without chain grabbing so much and beating them

Until I see that I will just say you are bais IC cause you play them. And I will stand by what I say, IC= grabs.

uh... i'll send you some vids if you want. >_>

i don't use grabs all that often/at all.

 

[ChibiIceClimberz]

Ice Climbers are not all about grabs too, but that's just their main, important game.

Instead of grabs, what about desynchs...? There's an advantage and disadvantage through desynchs. They also perform their desynch combos which is an advantage, but a desynch can also ruin you that might separate you and your recovering... which is a disadvantage.

A good IC player vs. an expert Peach player; I'm thinking Peach will win.
Both expert ICs and Peach player; depends, so... IDK really know, it just depends how you fight, so I can't predict on both experts to which one winning, because it looks like an even match, and it is... I think.

And yes I do main Peach as 2nd also, because her combos, the way she plays.... err.. yeah. But I'm into the ICs since I play good with them than I use Peach.

 

[FrozenHobo]

no doubt peach is a pretty even matchup for the ICs, but Dark.Pch can't just generalize that all ICs do is grab. we're not all stupid noobs who spam grabs. some of us actually know what we're doing.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Do this for me then. Show me an ICE fighting Good/great Peaches without chain grabbing and beating them

Show me an IC fighting good/great/top players without chain grabbing so much and beating them

Until I see that I will just say you are bais IC cause you play them. And I will stand by what I say, IC= grabs.

Well, from what you are saying, If i was to say that for an IC vs Pit match without their CGs, Pit is truly dominate, but of course, the CG is the ICs' core strategy and ability.

Even with those CGs, I do think Peach (and Pit for that matter since im late for the discussion) could do a lot of damage against the ICs, it seems even for both those matchups, but if I can give my opinion on the matchup against Pit later on, that would be pleasing.
Note: Im trying to boost up Pit a bit, because the 6:4 is just unlikely, especially with me. Thanking Toon Senshi for the ICs practice.

For peach, good ones are very much difficult and I seen those kinds before.

 

[momochuu]

Also, that's kinda like saying: Make Peach fight without using a single aerial. Aerials are a big part of her game, no?

 

[smaci92]

Do this for me then. Show me an ICE fighting Good/great Peaches without chain grabbing and beating them

Show me an IC fighting good/great/top players without chain grabbing so much and beating them

Until I see that I will just say you are bais IC cause you play them. And I will stand by what I say, IC= grabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GM3odhBdro

it's not a great peach though...but the IC player only uses 1 chaingrab 2 times in the game (the bthrow to smash)...but if you took away that chaingrab, it would be like taking away peach's aerials (like bunny said...), because IC's don't have too many ways to KO...and IC's aren't grabbed-based characters just because most of the vids you see them chaingrabbing. In that vid, you can clearly see the Ice Climber player is playing with skillful desyncing. We use chaingrabs because they're in the game for us to use...It's not like we can't play Ice Climbers without a single chaingrab.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Also, that's kinda like saying: Make Peach fight without using a single aerial. Aerials are a big part of her game, no?

Yes they are and I agree with you here. Its the truth. I am not gonna sit here and tell you otherwise just cause I main Peach. She is one of the best air fighters and her air game *****, nuff said. She needs her air game.

and as Pit said:
"the CG is the ICs' core strategy and ability."

Thats the IC's strongest trait. and with that out of the way, it makes it hard for them to win. Peach can take that away for it is hard to grab a good Peach. With that gone you are not killing her as easy as if you was to just get one grab in.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Show me an IC fighting good/great/top players without chain grabbing so much and beating them

Okay.

Watch round 2.

For the record, this was the first time Edrees played me and the next time we played, he won 2-1.

EDIT: This argument is kind of pointless, though. Whether ICs can beat Peach with or without CGs is irrelevant since ICs do have CGs and should use them.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'll let edrees come in here and speak on this. I would but I am not gonna assume.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Okay.

Watch round 2.

For the record, this was the first time Edrees played me and the next time we played, he won 2-1.

EDIT: This argument is kind of pointless, though. Whether ICs can beat Peach with or without CGs is irrelevant since ICs do have CGs and should use them.

wait.. that was you playing? awesome!

and Dark.Pch, hypothetically if you were to assume, what would your comment be?

 

[momochuu]

Good vidjo Fly, since, y'know Ice Climbers are all grabs. <__<;

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I'll let edrees come in here and speak on this. I would but I am not gonna assume.

As I said in the Peach forums, I still believe Peach to have the 60-40 advantage. I just didn't play well that set at all, and on top of that I didn't know the matchup at all. I studied the matchup after the loss and figured out ways around a lot of what Fly was doing. Initially after the match I thought Peach must have the disadvantage, but when I thought about it and decided to play very patient, I've since decided Peach does have a decent advantage, its just not huge or anything. If you pay attention to the matches, I was really aggressive. This is a big no- no. Patience is the key. I started even doing things like not approaching until one of the IC trips - just maneuever around in the air and jump around. since IC will run/dash a lot more than Peach will, I literaly decide to wait for a trip, and can kill Nana in one combo. It's a shame our next set was not recorded - the exact same things that were getting me in that video I was using to punish IC and what's why I was able to win 2-1 the next time around.

In no way is it **** by Peach, but I still think Peach wins. When both players know the matchup, I feel there is a lot more Peach can do to IC than IC can do to Peach.

I think what Dark is trying to say is that since Peach can avoid IC's grabs she can win the matchup. She has a better shot at avoiding them than most characters, but by avoiding them you leave yourself more open to other attacks because he knows you're not going to land. The key is to mix it up properly. She still has the ability though, and it's a huge leg up, when she's patient.

I don't get why anyone would get defensive when someone says IC is all about grabs. Nobody is saying they don't have other good moves or can't kill or attack with other strategies, they are just saying the reason they are able to win the level they win at is because of their grabs and this is true. There is no reason to care, for example, the reason MK can win is because only because of his quick moves. This is true, would a MK player complain "NO! its not the quick moves! It's something else" Your characters strength is your characters strength, what's the big deal.

 

[gantrain05]

yeah, i agree with edrees on this one, its most definately a peach advantage, it basically comes down to both characters strengths, IC's are their grabs and peaches is her air game, peach can basically shut down the IC's grab game while still maintaining her strong arial gam, and yes IC's DO have other things besides chaingrabs, but w/out them they aren't really that great honestly, its like taking away snakes grenades/nikitas, he could still put up a fight but in the end he'd have nothing to force people to approach and would be too slow to go on the offensive.......so that was probably a bad analogy, but you get my point, this matchup ruins IC's grab game but peach's air game still works just as well as any other matchup besides maybe the MK matchup.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

updated. in short, ICs although dont lack their CG,its not exactly easy to land on Peach. her strong arieal game gives her the slight advantage and you lose your strongest apprach.

40:60

 

[NinjaFoxX]

this week is Bowser...y'know, scince hes like first on the list...(and i dont know alot about the matchup)

not a hard one really but do...dont spare any details on this one.

 

[FrozenHobo]

70:30 ICs

big target, easy to juggle, besides neutral b has short ranged attacks, not fast, predictable recovery, chance of using side b on nana and suiciding.... the list goes on.

 

[Bnzaaa]

As far as I know, Bowser has range, power, size, and can edgeguard fairly well.

I'm not sure how safe on the block his moves are, but he has his Jab, Forward Tilt, and F-Air to outrange the Climbers. Another move to watch out for is Up-B. It doesn't kill like it used to, but it comes out fast, and has invincibility frames.

He has many KO options. If we are from above, his Up-Air has deceptive range. Up-Smash has lots of priority and has 2 hitboxes. Forward Smash isn't that reliable, but it can hit twice, and do massive damage. Up-Tilt comes out fast. Bowser Bomb from the ground combos into itself at times and Back Air outranges the Climbers. Even Side-B can kill them at heigher percents (I'm not talking about the Bowsercide here.) It's fairly situational. Down Smash is good for killing because it has power and is multi-hit. It's pretty hard to DI out of and can eaisly split the Climbers.

Bowser is he heaviest character in the game. He's the hardest to kill horizontally, due to his size and Aerial Movement speed.

Bowser has edgeguarding options. Bowser Bomb cancel (I think when it land on the edge.) and Bowser Bomb sweetspoting is devastating, leaving a vertical wall of power coming towards the ledge. Spaced Forward Airs and Forward Tilt/Down Tilt all hit the Climbers out of Squall Hammer. Flamethrower is commonly used in this situation, as it racks up damage and makes it difficult to grab the ledge. Down Air is multi-hit with a landing hitbox. If this connects, it will split the Climbers.

Unfortunately, it's his size that does him in in this matchup.

He's the eaisest character to Forward chain throw. It leave a bit of room for error, due to his character frame. He has trouble getting out of Blizzard Walls and Squall Hammer can chain into itself and a grab at low percents. Bowser isn't that hard to grab in my experience.

Squall Hammer also sets up for Juggling opportunities. Up- Air's destroy Bowser at low percents. Up Tilt at low percents sets up for a grab if they don't DI properly. Down-Smash can also hit him for way more damage then normal.

You can kill him up or down. He dies at the top easier than Snake, DK, and Dedede, but I'm not quite sure what the kill range is for Up-Smash on him. Meteor Smashing him is good, due to his lack of verticle height. This is assuming you get him to a reasonable percent.

His whole book of Grab tricks are severely ruined by Nana being at your side. With one Climber he can chaingrab you better than you can chaingrab him by release grabs. He can air release you into a Forward-Air, or a Side B. With Nana at your side, he loses the ability to chaingrab effectivly, and he can be hit out of Side-B on the way down. There's also the chance that Bowser grabs the wrong one (A good Bowser shouldn't suicide with Nana if they pay attention. Have you seen Nana's DI?) If it happens, Popo can get to Bowser and punish before he even hits the ground. Nana can punish Bowser out of his Side-B, only if Bowser lands by Nana.

It's 8-2 in the Ice Climber's favor. Bowser has way too much going against him.