Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Kinzer]

So then does that mean you already have a write-up for Pit by this point?!

We is working hard and fast!

I also I fear copyright infrigment if any of the Zeldas come to our thread. XD

 

[Kirk]

All I ask is that you put my comment into your Pit write-up.

Because everyone knows he reminds everyone of fluffy puppies...they just don't want to admit it.

 

[YagamiLight]

So then does that mean you already have a write-up for Pit by this point?!

We is working hard and fast!

I also I fear copyright infrigment if any of the Zeldas come to our thread. XD

Oh, I'm not done with the write-up by any means, I was just saying that due to how cool the picture was, G&W was unquestionably next.

All I ask is that you put my comment into your Pit write-up.

Because everyone knows he reminds everyone of fluffy puppies...they just don't want to admit it.

Sure thing, I'll include a bit about fluffy puppies in there (It's pretty true, in any case).

 

[Kirk]

Sure thing, I'll include a bit about fluffy puppies in there (It's pretty true, in any case).

Of course it's true...why would I be giving false information in an important discussion such as this?

If you ask me it's probably the MOST important piece of info you can have going against a Pit. o.O

Spoiler

/sarcasm....but seriously you better put it in there :D

 

[Snakeee]

About ZSS, it's mostly decent but I want to point out that her recovery is far better than you have it.

 

[YagamiLight]

About ZSS, it's mostly decent but I want to point out that her recovery is far better than you have it.

It might very well be better than a 2/5 star recovery. I guess I'll make it 3 stars next time I edit the thing.

The way the stars work, really, is that I both compare them to Ike and the whole cast.
Assume Ike looks something like:

Speed **
Strength *****
Range *****
Recovery ***

And then just work from there. It's pretty subjective, but it's still a good system.

 

[Royta]

One of my mostly played matches is against a pit so might as well contribute ;p

Ofcourse the arrows play a big role, you can never stay away from pit since the arrow barage kills you pretty hardcore. I found the most effective way to approach to shield slide towards him (hold shield while dashing). The problem is that when you get up close and personal you're gonna face some fast smashes (some with decent knock back even..). The most common is Fsmash, and a Dsmash if they see you like rolling. The best you can try and do is force him in your sweetspot (Fair range) and pummel him to death.

One of Pits major weaknesses I found out is actually recovering. While he can survive a good deal an fly really high, when you get him on the egde its easy to kill him. His aerials are just to lacking in range to hit you, and flying over you is not an option. The only thing he can try is mindgame you into a mistake, but if you play smart you'll get him. Also note that when pit is gliding, his attack only hits infront and under him, so an easy spike target.
If pit tries to recover by flying over you, try catching him in an aether or try to catch him in an Uair and/ or upsmash.

Also close up Jabs again work wonders, I usually do jab1-jab2-jab1-jab2-jab1-grab, but if he DI's in a good manner you're better of with jab1-jab2-jab1-jab2-jab3 or just the jab -> grab followed by some fair spacing ;D

When a stage, make sure you DONT get Eldin, my opponent usually chooses that when losing and it makes 1 to 2 stocks diffirence.. When the bridge is destroyed you are pretty much ****ed, you can cross without a certain arrow death and if you stay where you are you'll get spammed to death. So either stay close to pit or prevent that stage from being choosen.

Coming from the neutral stages, Battlefield is a safe bet. Platforms help your combo's more then his, less arrow spam to worry about and good killing potential.
I'm not a big fan of Corneria in this matchup, since thanks to the low ceiling and small screen edge you'll get killed way faster. And ike's main thing going against pit is that ike can survive at HIGH % against him (up to 250% sometimes).
Since Pit's smashes are used in close combat to rack damage there knockback will be fiercely degraded. But in Corneria you'll die way to fast imo, he'll do too but its a bit more risky then against lets say metaknight.
Battlefield and smashvile out of the neutral stages are a safe bet, and from the counterpicks i'd go for Pirate ship since recovery isn't an issue there and Pit has no reall spikes so its a water battle. And perhaps Pkmn2melee since you can infinite against a wall there and it has some nice platforms (and I just like the stage xD)

Also if your enemies pit likes to use that annoying NANNAANNANANAA (I am ofcourse talking about ->B) Di out and Fsmash him. The lag if the ->B is large enough to give you a window of oppertunity to Fsmash him (and it outprioritizes the move aswell). This will kill pit as early as 40% if spaced right I think so that's an easy kill ;D

 

[James Sparrow]

It might very well be better than a 2/5 star recovery. I guess I'll make it 3 stars next time I edit the thing.

The way the stars work, really, is that I both compare them to Ike and the whole cast.
Assume Ike looks something like:

Speed **
Strength *****
Range *****
Recovery ***

And then just work from there. It's pretty subjective, but it's still a good system.

Her recovery is 5/5 imo. If you disagree your opponents or you are doing it wrong.

 

[•Col•]

All I ask is that you put my comment into your Pit write-up.

Because everyone knows he reminds everyone of fluffy puppies...they just don't want to admit it.

Meh... I always got that feeling from Lucario, personally... =P He's more like a dog anyway...

Her recovery is 5/5 imo. If you disagree your opponents or you are doing it wrong.

Definately not 5/5... ._. Wtf are you thinking? >_> Her recovery is 4/5 at best, and even then, I think it's really pushing it...

EDIT: Also, why is her power 5/5? o-o Just wondering...

 

[Snakeee]

It's 4/5, one of the best recoveries but not THE best.
Also, you shouldn't have damage racking and KO power listed as the same thing. But anyway here's my version of yours for ZSS

Speed (Running and attack) : ****
Power (Killing moves and damage racking): **** (considering you're averaging both of these)
Range (Priority and hitbox) : **** I don't understand this one either. Range and priority are two completely different things.
Recovery : ****

...Just realized I gave all of them 4 stars. Well that's how it is for each of those categories. Her main weaknesses should be llisted here is fast fall speed and grab ability. Actually grabs should be a regular category too. She is definitely not "weakish" either. She has above average KO power and more attacks that can KO than most characters.

I'm saying all this not just for your ZSS match up, but some things you should consider for the guide as a whole. And you didn't give the characters a rating against Ike, which is usually the main point of these topics.

 

[HeroMystic]

Her recovery is 5/5 imo. If you disagree your opponents or you are doing it wrong.

Metaknight, Pit, Jigglypuff, and Kirby flicks you off. ZSS' recovery is good, but that doesn't mean it's near impossible to gimp.

3/5 at best. 4/5 feels biased when compared to other characters. It's nowhere near 5/5.

And you didn't give the characters a rating against Ike, which is usually the main point of these topics.

It's being dealt with later. There's too much bias and the thread gets flooded with number discussion, throwing us off track. The discussion is far more important than ratings.

EDIT: Kinda like how it is now with the "character statistic". Number ratings are such a common way to ruin a good thread.

Compare ZSS to other characters, and you'll know she doesn't have 4/5 stars in all sections.

 

[Snakeee]

I am comparing her to other characters, that's the point. And yes, she does.

 

[Kinzer]

To Royta:

Isn't BoE usually a banned stage if I'm not mistaken?

Now that I think about it, he does kind of raise a good point, maybe the best CP for this matchup is to go with a neutral stage, particularly Yoshi' Island. Sure Battlefield is alright, but Yoshi's Island is more or less the same thing but with a higher ceiling, slightly wider side-blastzones, and Pit can't use the underbelly of the stage to glide/WoI under because there IS no underbelly.

Royta brought up a very good point, if you bring the battle to Pit in the air he doesn't really have any range going for him, which this is nice to consider. Also I kind of think that punishing Pit's side-b is easier said than done, especially with a smart Pit and a smart Ike in which the Pit will know when the side-b won't hold him in any longer, cancels out the move, and reacts accordingly.

 

[Royta]

To Royta:

Isn't BoE usually a banned stage if I'm not mistaken?

Now that I think about it, he does kind of raise a good point, maybe the best CP for this matchup is to go with a neutral stage, particularly Yoshi' Island. Sure Battlefield is alright, but Yoshi's Island is more or less the same thing but with a higher ceiling, slightly wider side-blastzones, and Pit can't use the underbelly of the stage to glide/WoI under because there IS no underbelly.

Royta brought up a very good point, if you bring the battle to Pit in the air he doesn't really have any range going for him, which this is nice to consider. Also I kind of think that punishing Pit's side-b is easier said than done, especially with a smart Pit and a smart Ike in which the Pit will know when the side-b won't hold him in any longer, cancels out the move, and reacts accordingly.

Hehe thanks, and yes BoE is banned but in friendlies you never know what you might expect
Just a point I wanted to place that is all ;D

And about the sideB well yes, you are right a good pit will cancel out the move before you'll have the chance, but the chance is still there. After he cancels the sideB Pit lags a fair bit, about the lag of when he does one of his smashes. Which is good window to strike. I'm not saying it's easy, but i'm saying the chance is there You can also try the Ftilt but I don't know if that'll make it Priority wise :/

Cheers

Oh and at the Zamus recovery, 4/5 at best imo. No hitbox above her during DownB hurts her, but her tether is very nice I must say. Hard one that ... =/

 

[Kirk]

Peoples....stop trying to argue a character who you don't main or don't know anything about.

You best listen to Snakeee and JS on this one...I approve of their messages :D ...cause they DO know what they are talking about.

 

[•Col•]

Peoples....stop trying to argue a character who you don't main or don't know anything about.

You best listen to Snakeee and JS on this one...I approve of their messages :D ...cause they DO know what they are talking about.

Uh.... 5/5 at recovery though? >.> REALLY Kirk?

I think you shouldn't really listen to people who main a character... xD They tend to be biased and try to say the character is better than they actually are... The problem with that is, if you listen to those who don't main the character, odds are they don't much about the character... xD

We need someone who thoroughly plays as every character, and hates Brawl on a whole... So we can get a good totally-unbiased opinion...

Spoiler

Lulz

 

[Kirk]

More like...I've played my fair share of ZSS's (good ones)...and as her myself.

Recovery is pretty good if you ask me...not the best...but good. Exactly what they said. And, you know, assuming the ZSS knows what they are doing :D

You going to start calling me biased now too?

 

[•Col•]

More like...I've played my fair share of ZSS's (good ones)...and as her myself.

Recovery is pretty good if you ask me...not the best...but good. Exactly what they said. And, you know, assuming the ZSS knows what they are doing :D

You going to start calling me biased now too?

Nah... Err... Well, you're definitely biased towards Ike anyway... <.< Whether it seems like it or not...

Anyway, like you said though... ZSS' recovery is good; I never denied that... It's definitely not perfect though...

I never thought that she had a bad recovery just because she has a tether Up B, like many other people assume... >.> She has an amazing double jump, her up b still raises her up a bit if used directly after a jump, and her down b helps as well...

But like I said, her recovery is not the best in the game... xD 5/5 is still stretching it...

 

[Kirk]

Once a day I always make a point to say Ike is a terrible character. I'm biased for sure...

And no one said her recovery was the best...I was just making a point that you shouldn't be arguing against something you don't know the whole story about.

In any event...I'm done on the subject...this tangent is proving more and more pointless as it goes on...

 

[•Col•]

There's different levels of biased-ness obviously... -_-;; It's just that it's pretty much inevitable when you main a character.... Can you really say that you never ONCE gave Ike a little more credit than he was due?


They said her recovery was 5/5... and we have these discussions to "get the whole story" on the character.... They didn't really say why her recovery was so great... I said why her recovery was good, but I still have yet to see why it was 5/5...


And yes, I'm done as well.... -_- I'm just going to stop posting my opinion on anything anymore... I've been getting berated a lot for it lately.... So yeah, this will probably be my last post in this topic... xD

 

[Kinzer]

^ Get out, right now, while you still can!

(Actually it's fine, [Of course saying a 5/5 recovery is absurb, but it's kind of good to be honest] besides we need more people's two cents on certain matchups, this is how we as a community grow.)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

5/5.......for ZSS's recovery?

lulz.

Yes, she has the best tether recovery, no questioning that. Yes, she has great horizontal recovery with her flip kick. Yes, she has a good second jump. Issue is when she's far enough below the stage she has to use a tether. Edgehug it as the whip goes up, you don't get pulled down, she doesn't grab the edge. Even with the Boost Upwards, more likely then not, she's not going to have a second chance. And if she does get a second chance to grab the edge, worse case event is that she grabs you as well. It's not the most powerful spike in the world, at least part of the time you can aether back and grab the edge.

Also, (correct me if I'm wrong on this part, I've heard a lot of info saying this is both true and false, so I'm not 100% sure), if she does grab the edge, Dair down along her tether route. If she moves up (this is the part I'm not sure of), she'll hit the sword, and fly down. As long as it's before she grabs the edge moving back up, she's screwed. And thanks to Dair's Sex kick like priorities, if she doesn't move as you fall down towards her along the tether line, she'll still get knocked up and to the side, possibly into a stage spike if she goes one direction. If she goes the other direction, Dair should of been finishing just as you hit her. Aether back, possibly aether spike her, grab the ledge, get the invincibility frames, repeat the cycle.

Yes, ZSS has better recovery then Ike. But it's 3/5. 3.5/5 at best. Not a delusional 5/5. That's as crazy as saying Ike's attack speed is 5/5 because good Ike mainers will use Jab Combo and Nair mainly.

And before anyone suggests that I have no clue what I'm talking about: I get my face beaten in regularly by a good ZSS. Between the Glide Tosses, mass amount of stunning combos, and her air game, I lose 4/5 games by a good margin when I use Ike against her ZSS.

The 4/5 for KO power suggested is crazy as well, not as crazy as the recovery however, and should be 3/5. I don't feel like another argument though.

For the Pit Matchup, sorry. I got nothing in this area except theorycraft, no practice. Though, I can confirm that Fsmash works well against Angle Ring.

 

[Royta]

Like Kirk said, lets call this discussion closed and get back on topic ;p
This discussion about Zamus's recovery is kinda turning into a "IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG " discussion ;p

 

[•Col•]

^ Get out, right now, while you still can!

(Actually it's fine, [Of course saying a 5/5 recovery is absurb, but it's kind of good to be honest] besides we need more people's two cents on certain matchups, this is how we as a community grow.)

Err, I guess this was directed towards me... Anyway, to be honest, this thread should not suffer at all from me not posting anymore... <_< I didn't even contribute that much to begin with...

The 4/5 for KO power suggested is crazy as well, not as crazy as the recovery however, and should be 3/5. I don't feel like another argument though.

The power stat also has to do with damage racking.

Just so you know...

EDIT: And Royta, it really wasn't that at all... -__- I just wondered why they thought it deserved a 5/5... Anyway, the ranking numbers really don't mean anything at all...

 

[HeroMystic]

See what I mean when I say numbers ratings destroy a good thread?

I don't care who's right or wrong at this point, let's all just shut up and get back to the boy who sounds like he gets kicked in the nads regularly.

 

[Ussi]

^ This is why i stopped caring about numbers... I hate these situations.


lets just know what we have to do to win and try to make that happen.

 

[YagamiLight]

Aaarrgh.

Even the simple and harmless character ability ratings were debated.

I'll decide what to do about the star system, but for now, continue to discuss Pit.

 

[Kirk]

I find it funny you guys brought numbers into my argument...when I not once mentioned anything about them o.O

 

[Hoser]

XD.

Kirk, you're entirely missing why he was arguing his point.

James Sparrow said

Her recovery is 5/5 imo. If you disagree your opponents or you are doing it wrong.

Then Colaya said

Definately not 5/5... ._. Wtf are you thinking? >_> Her recovery is 4/5 at best, and even then, I think it's really pushing it...

Then you said

Peoples....stop trying to argue a character who you don't main or don't know anything about.

You best listen to Snakeee and JS on this one...I approve of their messages :D ...cause they DO know what they are talking about.

Making it sound like you agreed with JS that her recovery was 5/5, which is why Colaya said

Uh.... 5/5 at recovery though? >.> REALLY Kirk?

I think you shouldn't really listen to people who main a character... xD They tend to be biased and try to say the character is better than they actually are... The problem with that is, if you listen to those who don't main the character, odds are they don't much about the character... xD

We need someone who thoroughly plays as every character, and hates Brawl on a whole... So we can get a good totally-unbiased opinion...

Which led into that whole argument.

[/argument]

 

[Ussi]

Light, the character ratings are alright, if other people complain, tell them to make their own and others will complain to them then. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A CRITIC.

 

[Royta]

It will always be the internetZ, there is no safe place here from critics ;p

Even if you give everyone 10.000.000 dollars people will find a way to complain (well... I won't..but you get the idea xD)

 

[Ussi]

It will always be the internetZ, there is no safe place here from critics ;p

Even if you give everyone 10.000.000 dollars people will find a way to complain (well... I won't..but you get the idea xD)

People will complain they didn't get their money or they want more. Greedy *******s...

 

[XACE-K]

People will complain they didn't get their money or they want more. Greedy *******s...

QFT. Now let's go back to fluffy puppy boy again.

 

[YagamiLight]

Most of the Pit conversation got sidetracked by the character ratings, but there are still gems of info in there. I have ample experience in this match-up, so even with the relatively low amount of Pit related posts, I can still whip something up.

Yoshi's Island / Green Greens seem good for counterpicks?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Green Greens? He can curve his arrows around the boxes, and if he doesn't go out the blast zone, he's coming back. And, there are 6 ledges for him to grab. Ledge mindgames anyone?

 

[YagamiLight]

Green Greens? He can curve his arrows around the boxes, and if he doesn't go out the blast zone, he's coming back. And, there are 6 ledges for him to grab. Ledge mindgames anyone?

You've got quite a point there. It's still a fairly good stage for Ike, but Pit can manuever himself around there easily. That said, Pirate Ship doesn't particularly seem like a terrible place to be, so I'll probably put that.

 

[XACE-K]

You've got quite a point there. It's still a fairly good stage for Ike, but Pit can manuever himself around there easily. That said, Pirate Ship doesn't particularly seem like a terrible place to be, so I'll probably put that.

Once again another counterpick with Pirate Ship....is that supposed to be Ike's best stage? I keep on seeing that and Corberia as the usual counterpicks for each character.

 

[Steel]

hi

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5489035

 

[XACE-K]

hi

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5489035

The OP section with Marth shows what Ike would do against a Marth so you can use that to get some info on the match-up.

 

[Steel]

The OP section with Marth shows what Ike would do against a Marth so you can use that to get some info on the match-up.

Marth boards like to directly communicate with the other boards in the thread so that both boards agree.