Important Threads + Q&A

[Ryos4]

I find DI + Bair to be better then air dodge.

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

I mean, I've read that and seen that as well, but since airdodge ends faster, I was just wondering if there is some benefit.

Kinda like with Snake, for vertical launch, its better to fastfall Uair than airdodge, even though, airdodge should be better.

 

[Rizen]

I mean, I've read that and seen that as well, but since airdodge ends faster, I was just wondering if there is some benefit.

That's not accurate.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285276

Bair

• Start-up 1-5
• Hit-on 6-9, 18-23 Quickest aerial
• Cool-down 24-31
• IASA 31 Shortest aerial; best for momentum cancelling

Airdodge Average-to-low in the airdodge tier list.

• Invincible 4-29
• IASA 50

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

Oh I see, I was looking at animation duration of bair, which is longer...

Thanks

 

[Rad]

I'm hoping this is the simple questions thread



Anyways, I have a bomb and I Dacus, which does the Bombslide / Glidetossy thing. Sometimes the bomb goes up, and sometimes the bomb goes forwards. What am I inputting differently? It hasn't been immediately obvious.

I read a few descriptions, both in the super-guide's AT section and the AT mega-thread sticky, but they didn't help me straight off. I figured just asking would be the best idea.

Thanks

 

[Rizen]

I'm hoping this is the simple questions thread



Anyways, I have a bomb and I Dacus, which does the Bombslide / Glidetossy thing. Sometimes the bomb goes up, and sometimes the bomb goes forwards. What am I inputting differently? It hasn't been immediately obvious.

I read a few descriptions, both in the super-guide's AT section and the AT mega-thread sticky, but they didn't help me straight off. I figured just asking would be the best idea.

Thanks

If Link fakes like he's throwing it up then throws it forwards you need to keep holding attack like a charged DAC for the bomb to go up.

 

[HotWings]

Hey, im trying to figure out the counterpick for all characters so im going to all the Q&A threads of all the characters and posting this. I would like for you to give me your characters worst MU and worst stage so it saves me a lot of time researching it myself and testing stuff.

I would really appreciate it if you all helped me out.

Hope to get some answers pretty soon.

 

[Huggles828]

Haha, well hey there yeldarB. Long time no see. Dunno how much people will respond if you go around all the boards like that though, haha.

Falco is Link's worst MU. Just play as gay as you possibly can. Lasers, phantasm, pull back and shoot at Link, jab or reflector if he comes in close. There's not a whole lot Link can do and Falco always has an option that will shut Link down.

FD would be best for this MU. Seriously, without platforms to run around on there's nowhere for Link to go but straight through laser hell.

Worst stage overall for Link would probably be Frigate Orpheon.

 

[Ryos4]

Just chain grab to spike and you win. Thats usually the only thing Falco can do to me that will seriously own me. After Link passes like 50% the match up is a lot closer imo.

 

[Beat11]

Link's worst matchup is questionable. A lot of link mains differ in playstyle because he is a versatile character like toon link so most will say different matchups are their worst. The most common are Falco,King d3, and Metaknight. IMO Falco is not that hard at all except for at the beginning of your stock. MK is the hardest for me because of the fact that he has just as much range as we do but he swings 10x faster and when offstage, he is the only character that can completely shut down our recovery options.

As for stages, Frigate Orpheon is definitely the worst. Every other stage is okay depending on the opponent's character.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Falco isn't as bad as people think.

The main thing Link as issues with are Lasers and the CG. Falco's jab can be beaten by spacing Link's own jab correctly, this is what I do. Lasers just make Link halt in movement and make pulling a projectile out a pain, then with the CG well that is a little easier to handle since you just need to position yourself in the center of the stage and keep out of his grab range then it should be fine, once you are out of CG range you can go in a bit more.

Arrows are super bad in this MU, I'd stick to mostly boomerang and Bombs.

These are things I tend to notice and do in the MU. It's defiantly a bad MU but I've been doubting how bad it is, probably still a 7:3 or something like that in Falco's favor but not too bad I think.

I think his worst MU is Metaknight, when you take CP stages into account along with his off stage game, I almost want to say it's worse than a 7:3 when the opponent knows how to play Metaknight, I tend to play ones who don't actually take advantage of Link's cons too well, or as well as they should.

His worst stage...I think it depends who the opponent is, Frigate probably fits the bill though for overall worst, maybe Delfino as well.

Still not bad, still something that I think can be done.

 

[Ryos4]

I cant see Frigate being a really good Link counter in terms of Falco. The first phase of the stage, it obviously has its down side for Link. But it would probably hurt Falco pretty badly too. While Link will have trouble recovering, Falco's recovery will be predictable. There was also study done on the stage that suggested the first phase of the stage tends to show up a lot less than the second phase.

The second phase of the stage is pretty good for Link IMO. Its not flat to make chain grabs harder, he can't phantasm on stage like on most flat stages as he would be put into free fall, and his blaster suffers. Link on the other hand has a fairly big stage, with 2 pop out platforms to save him. A platform on stage to help him get around Falco and Link's projectiles can cause so much havoc in the center of the stage.

To counter Link, if for some reason you need to... I think flat stages would be best with little to no platforms. It might be because i hate the stage, but i think pictochat would be a decent counter to Link that Falco should be able to handle.

 

[Rizen]

I think Falco isn't as bad as people think.

The main thing Link as issues with are Lasers and the CG. Falco's jab can be beaten by spacing Link's own jab correctly, this is what I do. Lasers just make Link halt in movement and make pulling a projectile out a pain, then with the CG well that is a little easier to handle since you just need to position yourself in the center of the stage and keep out of his grab range then it should be fine, once you are out of CG range you can go in a bit more.


I think his worst MU is Metaknight, when you take CP stages into account along with his off stage game, I almost want to say it's worse than a 7:3 when the opponent knows how to play Metaknight, I tend to play ones who don't actually take advantage of Link's cons too well, or as well as they should.

Falco's reflector is annoying too because it destroys close SH spacing.

I'd say a smart Falco on FD, who almost exclusively camps is Link's hardest match. Falco's extreamly hard to approach, can out-camp, phantasm away and repeat. CG's are annoying but Link can bomb himself. Falco has the Dthrow>dash attack>Usmash combo if he can't chain and spike. Link can either take tons of damage repeatedly approaching or be timed out.

Aside from that, MK's Link's hardest MU. Overall MK has the advantage anywhere and major advantages on most stages, even Brinstar.

DDD's a royal pain but can be platform camped, Dtilt spiked and juggled.

I cant see Frigate being a really good Link counter in terms of Falco. The first phase of the stage, it obviously has its down side for Link. But it would probably hurt Falco pretty badly too. While Link will have trouble recovering, Falco's recovery will be predictable. There was also study done on the stage that suggested the first phase of the stage tends to show up a lot less than the second phase.

Frigate's not too bad if Link avoids an early Dair spike. It's characters who pressure Link into moving backwards and offstage that really own him on Frigate. Sometimes I like Frigate but it's still bad for Link; it's a fun stage.

Like Ryos said, big flat stages like FD and less-so picto/SV are probably Falco's best CPs vs Link.

 

[MARLX]

What is the match up between link and falco?

 

[Ryos4]

Falco Vs Link is pretty bad for Link. Most say around 70/30. But i have to say that 70/30 is only when Link is at low percents (around 0-40%) when Falco can chaingrab to spike Link. After that the match up is a lot closer, but still in Falco's favor maybe 60/40 or even closer.

 

[Rizen]

It depends on the stage, in 2 out of 3 games tourney format with startes and CPs I'd say 25/75 Falco.

 

[Huggles828]

It depends on the stage, in 2 out of 3 games tourney format with startes and CPs I'd say 25/75 Falco.

^This. On FD if Falco plays ultra gay, you're looking at 15-85 or worse; realistically, completely unwinnable. On BF or levels with lots of platforms for Link to move around on it's probably a more "manageable" 35-65 or so. Although pulling out numbers is kinda silly, the point is no matter what this matchup sucks for Link.

Also, the horrid ratio is dependent on Falco knowing what to do and being willing to win at all costs, even if it's a boring matchup. Falco should play defensively; he has the options to completely shut down any approaching opportunity Link has if he plays as campy as he can.

 

[Beat11]

I never saw this matchup to be nowhere near below 20/80 at all. When pulling bombs, try not to jump while doing it because he will just shoot you before you can finish. Throw bombs at him when he rises from a short hop. Bombs go right through lasers plus he won't be able to reflect in time because he has not hit the ground yet to end the laser lag. SH spacing is still possible if you bait and punish the reflector with a SH airdodge. Link compulsively jump while spamming projectiles. Try to avoid doing this to keep from taking a ton of lasers to the face. Falco sucks at killing and setting up for the kills so you should survive for a long while as long as you avoid the chaingrab to spike thing. Edgegaurding Falco is easy. Charged arrows are all you need. Falco will mostly aim for the ledge or slightly above it to avoid the freefall lag. Hold a arrow near the edge when Falco is low enough offstage. Falco will only have two options. Get hit by the arrow which will most likely kill him or reflect it which will put him very low in a position to only make a futile attempt to recover. To make things even sweeter, you don't even have to shoot it. You can mindgame him to screw his own recovery. This will work better if he has lost his second jump. When he is forced to use firebird, grab the ledge and Zair edgegaurd him. If for some miracle he lands onstage just hedgehop Dair him. It will kill him. Platforms helps greatly against Falco as they support your style of camping much more than his. FD is still manageable, just annoying and it not neccesary to go through it when you can just ban it.

 

[Huggles828]

I never saw this matchup to be nowhere near below 20/80 at all. When pulling bombs, try not to jump while doing it because he will just shoot you before you can finish. Throw bombs at him when he rises from a short hop. Bombs go right through lasers plus he won't be able to reflect in time because he has not hit the ground yet to end the laser lag. SH spacing is still possible if you bait and punish the reflector with a SH airdodge. Link compulsively jump while spamming projectiles. Try to avoid doing this to keep from taking a ton of lasers to the face. Falco sucks at killing and setting up for the kills so you should survive for a long while as long as you avoid the chaingrab to spike thing. Edgegaurding Falco is easy. Charged arrows are all you need. Falco will mostly aim for the ledge or slightly above it to avoid the freefall lag. Hold a arrow near the edge when Falco is low enough offstage. Falco will only have two options. Get hit by the arrow which will most likely kill him or reflect it which will put him very low in a position to only make a futile attempt to recover. To make things even sweeter, you don't even have to shoot it. You can mindgame him to screw his own recovery. This will work better if he has lost his second jump. When he is forced to use firebird, grab the ledge and Zair edgegaurd him. If for some miracle he lands onstage just hedgehop Dair him. It will kill him. Platforms helps greatly against Falco as they support your style of camping much more than his. FD is still manageable, just annoying and it not neccesary to go through it when you can just ban it.

Play better Falcos.

Haha, sorry to be mean, but it's really not that easy. Falco can hit you with his lasers when you standing, even if you're not moving; he can easily aim and hit you in the face above your shield. Smart Falcos aren't going to just be spamming laser, they'll be using it smartly to disrupt what you do and make you lag.

A Falco with good DI will definitely make it back to the edge, often even without his sideB or upB, so an arrow is probably not a good idea unless they don't have a double jump or botched their DI something fierce (DI'd straight down or something), and then he could just shoot a laser then phantasm. If Falco gets lazy with his side B to recover, you're probably better off trying to predict where he'll land and full hop dairing where he'll phantasm past (don't be predictable with it, save it for an opportunity to kill). He can also cancel out the phantasm to land near the edge or on it.

It's true Falco's not going to be killing you until high damage and we can kill him much earlier, but he's going to be racking up damage like three times faster than us, so even though we die at a higher number, he kills us significantly easier than we kill him, not to mention he gimps us much better than the other way around.

Because of the angle Falco throws out his reflector, bombs are not as useful as you can't reliably throw them at his feet, and he jumps too high to try to throw them at Falco from above. We eventually will have to approach him, and Falco is insanely hard to approach, and Link is bad at approaching. Falco's jab leads into a lot of things on Link, including grab, dash attack, and DACUS/usmash (which is a kill setup btw), as well as other things. Platforms help out Link a lot, giving him places to go, but they're a necessity; when they're not there, there's nowhere for Link to go, and then when Link finally gets in to Falco, he can phantasm away.

On wifi, a lot of this is mitigated, and Falco is quite manageable since he's a very precise character, and a lot of that is lost in wifi lag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxB9S62KZo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F6CiD2NXzQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csLw9NJwRmU

Some vids of Scabe playing this match. Scabe's one of the best Links around. Sorry bud, as much as I'd like to say it's not so bad, it really is an absolutely brutal matchup.

 

[Scabe]

*Watches matches^

Wow I suck hardcore.

 

[Beat11]

Nah, it all good. Feel free to flame/correct me when I seem to be saying something that is just wrong. I was blinded by optimism and blant pride for my character to accept any extremely low ratios. I didn't mean to make look easy for link, I just don't think it is 20/80. That makes it seem like Fox vs Pikachu. What happened to the 30/70 ratio?

Anyways, thanks for pointing me out for ignorance. But I think Scabe could have won the first match of the first vid if he had tethered the first stock instead of spin attack. He also should have won the one on Brinstar. Speaking of Brinstar, do we have more counterpicks than Falco? I know for a fact that Falco does terrible on Rainbow Cruise and he does not like Brinstar and Lylat Cruise.

BTW, I stay in Memphis, Tn. Home of the deadest smash scene ever. Hopefully, I will get Oos experience besides wifi. But hey, what can a adolescent like me really do?

 

[Huggles828]

Nah, it all good. Feel free to flame/correct me when I seem to be saying something that is just wrong. I was blinded by optimism and blant pride for my character to accept any extremely low ratios. I didn't mean to make look easy for link, I just don't think it is 20/80. That makes it seem like Fox vs Pikachu. What happened to the 30/70 ratio?

Anyways, thanks for pointing me out for ignorance. But I think Scabe could have won the first match of the first vid if he had tethered the first stock instead of spin attack. He also should have won the one on Brinstar. Speaking of Brinstar, do we have more counterpicks than Falco? I know for a fact that Falco does terrible on Rainbow Cruise and he does not like Brinstar and Lylat Cruise.

BTW, I stay in Memphis, Tn. Home of the deadest smash scene ever. Hopefully, I will get Oos experience besides wifi. But hey, what can a adolescent like me really do?

Haha, it's all cool. I love Link to death too, and he does surprisingly well in a handful of matchups, but this ain't one of them, and I think we need to know our characters' limitations so we know our options.

I played a really aggressive good Falco on Lylat and did decent, I dunno how good a counterpick it is though. Not sure about RC either, since Link doesn't like it very much either. Brinstar's pretty good though. Battlefield would be my guess of best starter stage to go to if he doesn't strike it.

I know how it is living in a dead smash scene too bud, haha. I live in Charleston, South Carolina. I've been driving 2 hours to Atlanta for "local tournaments" when I visit my parents.

Also, Scabe, be quiet, haha. You do not suck hardcore, you've been power ranked forever, and you have one of the best Links in the world. Stop trying to garner sympathy :D

 

[Beat11]

I played a really aggressive good Falco on Lylat and did decent, I dunno how good a counterpick it is though. Not sure about RC either, since Link doesn't like it very much either. Brinstar's pretty good though. Battlefield would be my guess of best starter stage to go to if he doesn't strike it.

:D

Rainbow Cruise isn't that bad for Link. He can control space with his projectiles and Zair well, he doesn't have to do much close quarters combat due to the constant movement and he does not have to recover much at all. Just think of how Norfair was. There was almost no direct fighting and you would just control space with bombs. RC also messes up Falco alot. Hardly any close combat and no laser camping because of the uneven terrain. Link just wants to avoid this stage against characters who are really good on it. GW, Metaknight, Wario, Jigglypuff, Kirby, ZSS, and they say King D3 but i'm a little unstable about that. No CGs is always good.

 

[Rizen]

On wifi, a lot of this is mitigated, and Falco is quite manageable since he's a very precise character, and a lot of that is lost in wifi lag.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Yes

I played a really aggressive good Falco on Lylat and did decent, I dunno how good a counterpick it is though. Not sure about RC either, since Link doesn't like it very much either. Brinstar's pretty good though. Battlefield would be my guess of best starter stage to go to if he doesn't strike it.

Also, Scabe, be quiet, haha. You do not suck hardcore, you've been power ranked forever, and you have one of the best Links in the world. Stop trying to garner sympathy :D

Brinstar's the best CP, then BF because platform camping. Japes is pretty good because on the right we survive Falco's Dair spike in the water and we can match his camping better with terrain. Other stages like Lylat and RC I'm not sure about.

Scabe you're a good player! I know how it feels to be rusty but you'll sharpen your edge again.

GW, Metaknight, Wario, Jigglypuff, Kirby, ZSS, and they say King D3 but i'm a little unstable about that. No CGs is always good.

There are several walk off CG spots on RC (like the top).

 

[Beat11]

But if you exploit the platforms right and the whole don't get grabbed strategy well enough, this should not be a problem at all. This stage is all about indirect spacing and area control with projectiles for Link. Never stay within thier direct range.

And as for lylat cruise against Falco, Lylat cruise has platforms to help Link's style of camping and the constant leaning kind of messes up Falco's laser campng a little, much like peach's float on this stage. It doesn't kill Falco completely but it helps Link more than Falco.

 

[Abel1994]

I dont wana be "that guy" or anything but is Link worth being a secondary since his recovery sucks? And he low on tier >.>

 

[Ryos4]

Your a Pit main right? I think Link is a pretty good secondary. Hes my secondary and i main Pit. He does better against some of Pit's terrible match ups like Marth and G&W. However, Link is a pretty tough character to learn and will take quite a lot of effort to find out how to play him well. His recovery is kind of bad compared to those with really good recovery. But with proper DI, momentum cancel, and smart usage of your double jump, Link can usually make it back.

Hes a fun character to play and is pretty good in a low tier tournament. He also has really good momentum canceling, solid range, and kill power.

IMO Pit doesn't really need a really good secondary. His match ups are fairly decent with every character. His worst match ups are of course MK, G&W, Marth, Snake, IC, and for some reason BBR thinks Wario. If you have a problem with G&W, Marth, or Wario. Link may be a decent secondary.

 

[Abel1994]

Alright lol I mained link and Yink on melee and in brawl they destroyed Yink for Tink who camps all day which I hate that play style >.>

 

[Ryos4]

You do realize that Link has to camp a lot more then TL. TL is more capable at camping, but he has really good aerials, and is much faster. Which makes him much better at fighting close range then Link.

 

[Huggles828]

Personally, I don't think Link makes a good secondary. He takes too much effort to learn to play well to just be a secondary, and not a lot of reward for it. Most of Pit's MU's are going to be better than Link's anyway, and the few that aren't, there's probably a better character that's easier to learn since Link isn't even going to give you an even matchup anyway. I bet Meta KnightMarth would be a good second for Pit, just thinking off the top of my head.

Although I do agree, Link's a ton of fun to play and is the coolest video game character evar. Reason enough to main him

 

[Scabe]

I enjoy watching pros, who don't play Link, play Link and own. Although these days that hardly happens.

 

[Abel1994]

Personally, I don't think Link makes a good secondary. He takes too much effort to learn to play well to just be a secondary, and not a lot of reward for it. Most of Pit's MU's are going to be better than Link's anyway, and the few that aren't, there's probably a better character that's easier to learn since Link isn't even going to give you an even matchup anyway. I bet Meta KnightMarth would be a good second for Pit, just thinking off the top of my head.

Although I do agree, Link's a ton of fun to play and is the coolest video game character evar. Reason enough to main him

THats the exact reason why I mained him a long time ago but a friend told me to main a char I like the play style and not by who I just love the game on lulz So I went PIT! I was thinking of marth as a secondary lol

 

[Ryos4]

Well if your going to use a high tier character, might as well just go MK. He owns everyone. lol. But then again i do remember people saying Marth does cover some of Pits weakness. Mainly Wario.

The reason i ended up with Link as a secondary:
1. Pit doesn't really need one and Link's fun.
2. Link is a great low tier and is pretty even with all the other low tiers.
3. Pit's style translates over to TL pretty well and then TL goes over to Link pretty well.
4. Playing Link helps train in spacing which is good for Pit and playing low tier helps makes you a better player overall. Or at least that's my opinion.

Either way if you are playing to win, you might as well go with the best and that's MK.

 

[IYM!]

4. Playing Link helps train in spacing which is good for Pit and playing low tier helps makes you a better player overall. Or at least that's my opinion.

you are right, main a low tier character and win is a beigger challenge thanmain a higher one and win

 

[Rizen]

Personally, I don't think Link makes a good secondary. He takes too much effort to learn to play well to just be a secondary, and not a lot of reward for it.


Although I do agree, Link's a ton of fun to play and is the coolest video game character evar. Reason enough to main him

^^^^^^
and
^^^^^^
____________________-

When Link "camps" what we really mean 95% of the time is he supports spacing. Link can't camp long before the opponent approaches. Link is all about spacing, usually mid-range projectiles and tip-of-his-attacks close fighting. Link has no good OoS or GTFO options and needs setups, like Zair>smash or arrow lock etc, to land solid hits safely so he's a very passive/strategic character.

 

[basebalp21]

Who would be a good secondary for Link?

 

[Huggles828]

Pikachu covers a lot of his bad matchups quite well. Marth has similar spacing/plays similarly enough that he's not as hard to learn and covers Link's bad matchups well. Toon Link Gay is similar and is better overall. They'd all be good secondaries. 'Course, the problem is they're such good secondaries they risk forcing Link into the secondary character and becoming your main themselves as they're better at all of Link's "good" matchups than Link is.

At least, that's my two cents. I'm probably gonna stick with going solo Link at tourneys. Although I might pull out Captain Falcon one of these days

 

[Beat11]

Why don't we have a metagame discussion thread. A thread to discuss the techniques and different playstyles Link has. It won't hurt anything and maybe it will help us advance our game and get more people interested in Link as a whole. Sonic mains did it, so why can't we? We are Link mains afterall. The fact that we still main him proves that we have too much optimism and pride to stand for his terribly low placement on the tier list. I really want some type of thread like that around here. Aib had one but their site is so dead for no apparent reason, so I came here instead. Who knows? Maybe we will have a breakthrough player to take us higher (Legan needs help, people).

 

[Rizen]

Who would be a good secondary for Link?

MK. Zelda plays like a more simple version of Link but is below him so she's not great for bad MUs.

Why don't we have a metagame discussion thread. A thread to discuss the techniques and different playstyles Link has. It won't hurt anything and maybe it will help us advance our game and get more people interested in Link as a whole. Sonic mains did it, so why can't we? We are Link mains afterall. The fact that we still main him proves that we have too much optimism and pride to stand for his terribly low placement on the tier list. I really want some type of thread like that around here. Aib had one but their site is so dead for no apparent reason, so I came here instead. Who knows? Maybe we will have a breakthrough player to take us higher (Legan needs help, people).

SWF had something like that then we died for a while and it was forgotten. I'm not opposed to someone making one but frankly everything about Link has been discovered.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Toon and Link can't have each other as secondaries imo. Why? The transition from Link to Toon is way too hard. Seriously, whenever I mess around with Link in friendlies, it's easy, I just pick him up and start playing. But when I try to go back to Toon, then everything gets thrown out and it takes me a long time to get used to everything again cause nothing feels right. Surprisingly, I never have this problem with Ike and Toon for example. The transition has just never been a problem. Why this is the case can only be because it's too easy to use the same playstyle with Toon and Link and so because you're only using the one playstyle for both characters, you get stuffed around when you need to change character. With Ike, I play him completely differently, with an entirely different playstyle/mindset and so there's no trouble when it comes to the switch. But that's just me.
Some people who play Marth in melee and then try to play Marth in Brawl experience something similar. Brawl and Melee Marth are so similar that they uncontrollably try wavedashes in brawl cause they're still using the same playstyle/mindset until they can adjust.
So unless you can somehow keep your Links seperate in your mind, it'll never work and they'll just trip over each other.

/my two cents