Input Delay in Brawl

[TheReflexWonder]

Then how come people have played well offensively? If this were true, it would be impossible to win without doing this.

I edited my text. Offensive play works well after you've used the defensive stuff to put yourself in a position where it's more safe/useful to use the creative, offensive stuff. However, the former is a very large part of the flow of competitive Brawl (a majority of it, I'd say), and it's the cornerstone that offensive play has to lean on in order to succeed.

 

[AmKhokar]

Oh no, TWO FRAMES? This changes everything! This existed for the almost 5 years since it's been out and nobody's had a problem since then, but now that someone has discovered it, it is now suddenly unbearable! Surely this actually has an impact on the game, as it has been clearly visible for all these years just like tripping and buffer, and isn't just trivial bullcrap for haters to put at the end of their gigantic list of nitpicks to exaggerate in order to be negative on the internet! All is lost, including hope, which is dead.

"...to exaggerate in order to be negative on the internet! All is lost, including hope, which is dead."

The irony in this post is priceless.

All trolling / flaming aside, I'm not entirely sure what gameplay changes a player could make to minimize the disadvantages this poses (other than adjusting the code, which it seems for many players and regions is not an option). I'd like some input on how players seek to adjust gameplay with this new information in mind, if at all.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Time your hits earlier. Not many moves are active for only two frames, if you time it earlier you'll hit anyway (99% of the time).

@Reflex this won't happen. Already extreme stalling is probably the ultimate strategy, if people weren't doing that before they won't do it now.

 

[deepseadiva]

What did they do to you in the P:M thread, jayzus.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Ish told me to stop, I think you should as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Most grab hitboxes last for two frames, unfortunately.

Also, regardless of the input delay, most options are neutered by defensive play because you must learn to respect the powerful options your opponent has. If you try to hard read a spotdodge and punish it, you have to be a certain distance from your opponent to start, and if the opponent's Snake just decides to F-Tilt you instead, you're screwed. If you guess incorrectly the other way, and he spotdodges your attack, he can basically do whatever he wants to you. You're always better off abusing the physics to your own ends instead of putting yourself at great risk just to actually fight in the first place.

If you do something early, then the opponent can anticipate by (surprise!) just moving away from you. Worst-case scenario, he's unharmed and can put himself in the original position pretty easily.

It's just a terrible loaded-dice situation, and it's definitely made significantly worse by two frames of uncertainty. It's always better to play a very specific way, and all the top players do that to the fullest. Consistency is literally impossible for many common scenarios, and that makes me really sad.

 

[Biz_R_0]

So what you're saying is that this makes an existing problem slightly worse? I completely agree, although I think you might be saying something else in addition.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm saying that this logically shatters any hope of the game taking an offensive turn, and that kills me. I've been chasing that idea for a long time, always assuming that every punish I've taken from Falco, Dedede, etc. has been entirely my fault, and that I just need to practice more in order to beat it.

With this knowledge coming to light, it's easy to tell that no amount of practice can save certain situations from a lack of consistency, and that you must either abuse the luck-based mechanics behind general spacing options or lose, simple as that. It fits so well with so many situations that filled me with doubt about my potential and the potential of the game itself. Now whenever someone airdodges into the ground and my grab misses, I'll never know if it's because I mistimed it or because the game decided my grab was going to come out two frames later, and that's simply awful.

 

[Biz_R_0]

This is indistinguishable from human error, which you will also never overcome, so why worry? Either way, there's nothing you can do about it, the only difference is that there's two things instead of one. That's what buffer is for, because they knew normal people would never be consistently frame perfect.

 

[MR. K]

What would the point of having this honestly even be..? IDK if you could call it sloppy programming on the developers part since it seems like one of those things that seem to specific(i'm not a computer whiz so don't shoot me, just seems like if it randomly chooses between 2-4 frames it must of been something intentional and not like some glitch or something)

So what on earth would be the reason for even having something like this?

 

[Biz_R_0]

This was probably a coding error or something, I severely doubt they would do this on purpose, especially since they have buffer which almost completely nullifies it. That's like having tripping and letting you hover infinitely.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is indistinguishable from human error, which you will also never overcome, so why worry? Either way, there's nothing you can do about it, the only difference is that there's two things instead of one. That's what buffer is for, because they knew normal people would never be consistently frame perfect.

With anticipation, the amount of consistency people can manage is definitely enough to manage within such small windows. Similar windows are managed with high levels of consistency in other competitive games' scenes. It's a huge loss of potential.

You can't reasonably buffer things in many of the situations the input delay comes into play, unfortunately. Buffering a move out of another move requires you to have enough time to do the entire first move in anticipation. From the air, a non-aerial-attack landing has less landing lag than landing with an aerial attack, and the only difference between an empty landing and an airdodge landing is that an airdodge is much safer, and as for ground buffering options, most characters' fastest grounded option out of a run is...a spotdodge. As a result, abusive defensive options becomes even more entrenched in the spacing tactics of competitive play.

 

[bubbaking]

I do not care to actually partake much in this discussion. I was simply pointed here by my region's Brawl FB group. However, I just want to make clear that lag isn't actually experienced for every input. Rather, every input has the possibility to experience 0-2 frames of lag. This can still cause problems with consistency, and in fact, it probably does since one can't even expect to look forward to always having a frame or two of lag. Some inputs will be precise and some won't be. Even though a couple frames isn't much at all (human reaction time is around 10 frames), keep in mind that there are actions with applications that are very dependent on frame-tight windows. For example, shields come out on frame 1 and there are several moves which grant invincibility and/or hitboxes on frame 1 as well. So this lag wouldn't reasonably help or hinder someone's reactions but it might alter the rewards/consequences reaped from said reactions. Buffer mitigates this somewhat, however.

 

[Biz_R_0]

My point isn't "buffer everything", it's that this really doesn't do much more than human error would, so why worry about if it was this, human error, or Sakurai turning into a ghost, teleporting in front of you, and Sparta-kicking you in the soul-nuts?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Human error has a much lower amount of precision that it keeps you from. Many situations that could have been responded to with a fair amount of consistency are now far from it.

I could most definitely grab Dedede out of a spotdodge -> spotdodge quite consistently if the game didn't prevent me from doing it literally half of the time. That's a big gap to ignore.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I really don't believe that. It's hard to exactly compare it to human error because there's no way to definitely measure it, but you can never perfect it and there's always a small chance it'll **** you over. And, in this case, you'll never know.

However, your thing about Dedede made me imagine Dexter's Lab, but Wario is Dexter and D3 is Deedee. That's pretty much how I feel when playing against him.

 

[GimR]

btw ish, input lag =/= buffer

 

[teluoborg]

What does input lag =/= buffer mean ?

I really don't believe that. It's hard to exactly compare it to human error because there's no way to definitely measure it, but you can never perfect it and there's always a small chance it'll **** you over. And, in this case, you'll never know.

With all due respect (jk) no one cares about your beliefs.
You just have to follow the SF scene to see and aknowledge that people can consistently perform links that are 1 or 2 frames tight.

And I'm afraid Reflex is right, a very important part of Brawl is punishing landings and spotdodges and when the input delay has a chance to screw 50 to 100% of your window the only thing I can say is : Sakurai.

So what's left to do, abuse lingering and mutliple hitboxes ? Gatling jab sequences ?

 

[AmKhokar]

Are there any stats on the frequency of getting a 0 frame delay vs a 1 frame delay vs a 2 frame delay?

 

[Flayl]

Last I checked (let's ignore character choice) the better players win consistently, and that's been happening since Brawl was released

While I agree having input delay sucks and that it should have been avoided, saying that just knowing about it forces the metagame into a certain direction is quite frankly, very very silly

It's been over 4 years, if anyone can point out to me a tournament set that was decided solely due to a 2 frame discrepancy (make sure to count those frames) I'd appreciate it. Let me make clear that yes I understand how this delay hurts consistency, what I'm saying is that knowing about it, won't change the performance of people who have already played the game to death

Trying to grab Dedede out of a spotdodge sounds like a bad idea for just about every character except Olimar btw

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The power of specific options (really useful offensive options and the universal defensive options) is primarily what pushed the metagame to an especially safe/campy or luck-based (via spotdodge bull****) spacing game. Those two frames are just the nail in the coffin, IMO--Now the number of options that can just literally never be consistently challenged goes up considerably, making it even more appealing to stick with hoping your opponent tries to punish your landing with a grab, etc. Good reads mean very little in multiple common situations, which is sad.

There's still a certain way people can (and will) play the game; it's just unfortunate that no amount of practice will allow smart reads to consistently deal with the abuse of powerful defensive options. That realization makes the potential for this game much lower, in my opinion. I'm sure that other people will adapt and their feelings are much less negative about it, but, I think it's pretty obvious that this forces certain options to be unviable in competitive play.

 

[Vkrm]

I just think situations where I picked the right choice and timed it perfectly and still lost the engagement are borderline ********. That alone makes this a major flaw. It doesn't really matter to me that brawl has to be played defensively. That is not a real flaw. The problem here is 2 frames of random lag can **** up punishes and give the other player a mulligan in precise situations. I shouldn't have to time it earlier, it should be enough that I outplayed my opponent.

Last I checked (let's ignore character choice) the better players win consistently, and that's been happening since Brawl was released

But what about when it's 2 players very close in skill. That's when the coinflip bs can really screw people over. Let's be honest, in every grand finals set ever the two are usually pretty even.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Now every time you see a powershielded or spotdodged read, you're going to wonder about this. This is far worse than tripping as far as how much it affects the flow of the game, I think (mostly because of prevalence, but, it is what it is).

Vkrm, timing it earlier won't always fix it. With a two-frame window to punish, a non-buffered grab has a 50% chance of outright missing, no matter how early or spot-on you are.

 

[Strong Badam]

Lol @ "Time your moves earlier." Yeah guys, time your moves 0-2 frames earlier based on a randomly and constantly changing amount of input lag. The fact that anyone thinks that adjusting your gameplay to fit within this retardedly huge oversight is 1. something that people SHOULD want to do or 2. even possible is a great example of why some Brawl players do not understand what makes a good and deep competitive skillset to test with a game. The good players posting in here, thankfully, have already explained why this is hugely problematic not just in principle, but also in practice.

 

[Ishiey]

btw ish, input lag =/= buffer

I know. Did I mention otherwise somewhere? :x all I recall saying is that it would make sense for buffer to be included in Brawl (as opposed to previous Smash games where it wasn't included) as a band-aid fix to this issue.

@ Flayl: I agree that it doesn't force the metagame in a different direction (or change the performance of players), because the metagame more or less has already been going in that direction for quite some time. As Reflex said, this essentially confirms that the direction of the game will not change from its current nature, as it would be less effective. Also, we won't know which sets are or aren't decided by this because of the variability. AD behind Snake and PS his fresh utilt on your last stock at 130%? Did he mistime the utilt, or was it the input lag that held the Snake back from victory? Things like that.

 

[teluoborg]

Well that makes me wonder if this s intentionnal or not.

I mean, is the input delay a consequence of poor programming or if there is a line somewhere that is made to create it ?

The first case would show how little thought about competitivity was put into this game, but the second case would just be the ultimate case of Sakurai trolling.

 

[DeLux]

My god, most IC players are godlike apparently

Hitting 2-3 frame windows like it's their job while having to randomly guess 0-2 frame inconsistency? I wonder if doing CGs can be called luck or skilled at this point

Also, now I have a reason to blame that's NOT me on why I lose to TL and projectile throwers over and over

 

[Supreme Dirt]

This explains so much.

I guess Brawl Minus is getting a final update when Magus releases the code.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, Nana still grabs six frames after Popo does this thing, so that part is completely consistent, at least.

 

[infiniteV115]

How do you know they both receive the same input delay? Popo's throw might receive 0 frames of delay whereas Nana's receives 2, or vice-versa.

 

[Player-1]

Now every time you see a powershielded or spotdodged read, you're going to wonder about this. This is far worse than tripping as far as how much it affects the flow of the game, I think (mostly because of prevalence, but, it is what it is).

Vkrm, timing it earlier won't always fix it. With a two-frame window to punish, a non-buffered grab has a 50% chance of outright missing, no matter how early or spot-on you are.

no **** tripping.

How do you know they both receive the same input delay? Popo's throw might receive 0 frames of delay whereas Nana's receives 2, or vice-versa.

I think they would since your one controller input triggers both popo's and nana's actions so they'd get the same controller input delay since it was done with the same controller input

 

[DeLux]

I think you're reading the ramifications incorrectly Reflex

Looking at one CG input sequence:
1. Down on control stick to initiate Dthrow
2. Forward on control stick to walk forward with one climber
3. Grab button to grab opponent

Between steps 1 and 3 only there is a possible theoretical variation of 4 frames. When grab windows are typically 3 frames long (accounting for the two frame lingering hitbox), that's an obvious issue

 

[infiniteV115]

I think they would since your one controller input triggers both popo's and nana's actions so they'd get the same controller input delay since it was done with the same controller input

...?
If ICs are doing, say, (popo bthrow --> nana dthrow --> repeat) CG, then the inputs would either be
-Back for popo and grab for nana
-Down for nana and grab for popo

Either way it's a different input for each climber.

 

[Player-1]

I thought you were talking about only one input being done, like say if they were just idle and you tried to jab it's one input with 2 actions

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hmm, my mistake.

This just in--

F-Throw -> B-Throw chaingrab is most reliable. Get on it.

 

[infiniteV115]

I thought you were talking about only one input being done, like say if they were just idle and you tried to jab it's one input with 2 actions

Nah I'm pretty sure this post

To be fair, Nana still grabs six frames after Popo does this thing, so that part is completely consistent, at least.

Was meant to be a response to this post

My god, most IC players are godlike apparently

Hitting 2-3 frame windows like it's their job while having to randomly guess 0-2 frame inconsistency? I wonder if doing CGs can be called luck or skilled at this point

Also, now I have a reason to blame that's NOT me on why I lose to TL and projectile throwers over and over

Hence why Reflex mentioned grab specifically; he was talking about CGs.
Though I can see why you thought he was just talking about the standard synched ICs delay

 

[DeLux]

Don't tell me to fthrow bthrow
I INVENTED Fthrow Bthrow lolol

which now still has 4 frames of variability per throw
ICs are bad


But I'm going to try to do some testing into this myself before dropping ICs completely lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If that were true, people wouldn't be able to do it consistently, I imagine, right?

Perhaps the current input delay is set in stone if you're holding at least one input and only resets to a new number when you go back to pressing nothing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I find it odd that so many players can perform frame-perfect techniques consistently and this never causes a problem.

Also, I have only ever run into this issue in frame advance and at no other time... not that I could count the frame difference by sight anyway LOL

Anyway, while this is a very annoying "feature" it is also not a terribly large problem and shouldn't be a big deal to you if you've managed to enjoy Brawl through all of the other bull**** it's thrown at us.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

So my 2 frame Jab is now actually 2-4 frames depending on how the game is feeling? And this happens every single time you make an input?

Certainly gives frame data comparison/discussion a bit of a kick in the teeth...I assume this mean that 'frame perfect' things such as specific infinites and grab releases are no longer (theoretically) guaranteed?

This pretty disappointing news from a competitive standpoint