Input Delay in Brawl

[Biz_R_0]

And wasn't last year's Apex the biggest turnout ever?

 

[Delta-cod]

Are you implying input lag won't kill brawl?

Why yes, yes I am.

What will kill Brawl is people growing up and getting lives, lol. Most players I see quit/drop out just get too busy with, y'know, more important things than playing a Smash game for meager money (assuming they were even winning to begin with).

And wasn't last year's Apex the biggest turnout ever?

Up until that point, yes.

 

[Biz_R_0]

What outdid Apex 2012?

 

[Vkrm]

I thought the fact that top level brawl is as boring as it looks is what was killing it. How do the numbers stck up to melee entrants? I dont already know the answer and asking rhetorically, actually curious.

 

[Delta-cod]

Oh, I just didn't want to imply that Apex 2012 was the biggest tournament ever, since things could very well be larger (like Apex 2013 probably will be).

@ Vkrm: I don't care about comparing Brawl numbers to Melee numbers. Go find them on your own if you wanna make claims like Brawl is dying because of X reason when you don't even know if it's dying in the first place. You just admitted to spewing complete crap a couple posts ago because you don't actually have any numbers. Go do your research, kid.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Or just stop posting here, this is purely a Brawl thread and you don't play Brawl.

 

[Vkrm]

Meh...... I dont care enough to do my own research. Also the only point I put forth is that brawl sucks. Im not even trying to say melee is bigger or that brawl is on it's last legs.

 

[dettadeus]

Meh...... I dont care enough to do my own research.

Then get out of the brawl boards and stop wasting your time for god's sake.

Last time I'm posting something off-topic in this thread, should be able to get to testing soon.

 

[bubbaking]

>Brawl is dying
>Apex 2013 will probably have an even bigger Brawl entrant count than the last one.

No please continue.

I don't count 50 noobs entering instead of 10 noobs as a scene 'not dying'. I already pointed out some good examples. Put 2 and 2 together.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Nairo was a noob last year and now he's to 5 in nearly every tourney he goes to.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

>Brawl is dying
>Apex 2013 will probably have an even bigger Brawl entrant count than the last one.

No please continue.

Last I heard (earlier today, I think), it hadn't even broken 300 Brawl entrants. There were 408 entrants last year.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Is there at the door registration?

 

[Vkrm]

I think it's all pre-reg. Not certain.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, it is all pre-reg. At least, it was when I went last year. There may be at the door spectatorship, but i'm not sure of that.

 

[Lovage]

Biz isn't trolling guys; we just all disagree with him. I especially know how it feels for everyone to label you as a troll, despite your utter seriousness.

just because somebody is utterly serious doesn't mean they're not trolling like tolkien


edit2:

anyone comparing entrant numbers for melee vs. brawl in 2012 is utterly an idiot

 

[Biz_R_0]

I really think we're all just trying to get Vkrm to shut up and go away at this point. I honestly don't care about Melee vs. Brawl, I like Brawl more but it's all just opinions and as long as there are people who love the games, they'll live.

Also, trolling is saying or doing stuff just to piss off others. I'm not trying to do that, however I guess some people did get mad and blamed their emotions on me.

 

[Vkrm]

I honestly don't care about Melee vs. Brawl, I like Brawl more but it's all just opinions.

....we can fix that. The bit about your preference for brawl. You know melee doesn't have 2 spontaneous frames of lag right? I don't think melee being better than brawl is an opinion. Melee is way more polished, and more fun. Its like compairing Mozart to Rebecca black.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You clearly have no grasp on the concept of subjectivity or opinions. Yo use words like "fun" in an objective manner as if there's a definite scale to measure it on, which there isn't, as the amount off fun that is had while doing something differentiates between people on a subject to subject basis. That's what subjective means. I really don't care if you're trolling at this point, as trolling you and serious you are identical aside from your intentions. You won't change anyone's opinion, including and especially mine, so can you please just go back to the Melee subforum where people might actually want to hear what you have to say?

 

[Internalyzed]

....we can fix that. The bit about your preference for brawl. You know melee doesn't have 2 spontaneous frames of lag right? I don't think melee being better than brawl is an opinion. Melee is way more polished, and more fun. Its like compairing Mozart to Rebecca black.

Vkrm: the Big Brother of Brawl haters

 

[Magus420]

You'd only need a single SD card to load up gecko codes on as many wiis as you want btw. The SD only needs to stay in it for file replacement stuff.

 

[Biz_R_0]

But if that becomes the standard, everyone would have to hack their Wiis in order to practice properly, which some people can't do (including me until about a year ago). Also the whole thing about admitting to the world that Brawl is a horrible competitive game while bringing in no more new players than before because most people who don't like Brawl have other reasons.

 

[Vkrm]

You clearly have no grasp on the concept of subjectivity or opinions. Yo use words like "fun" in an objective manner as if there's a definite scale to measure it on, which there isn't, as the amount off fun that is had while doing something differentiates between people on a subject to subject basis. That's what subjective means. I really don't care if you're trolling at this point, as trolling you and serious you are identical aside from your intentions. You won't change anyone's opinion, including and especially mine, so can you please just go back to the Melee subforum where people might actually want to hear what you have to say?

So that planky campy nonsense is more fun than it looks? I think you can measure fun by asking yourself,

"how often does baller **** happen?"

I'm melee, constantly.
In brawl, hardly ever.

Brawl's entire meta is just trying to bring melee strats into a slower environment. It has no original aspects to it. It really is just a slower melee. Brawl is pretty much all figured out and theres no creativity what so ever. Brawl players get hype over the dumbest stuff because of how played out the game is. Melee is ten years old and it's still evolving.

 

[Zankoku]

But if that becomes the standard, everyone would have to hack their Wiis in order to practice properly, which some people can't do (including me until about a year ago).

I'm pretty sure there exists an exploit within the game of Brawl itself which doesn't require anything from you except an SD card with the proper codes and can load on an unhacked Wii.

The fact that Project M has become big enough to be run as a main tournament rather than a side one should be enough indication that things like taking a bit of effort to make custom code a standard is well within the limits of competitive players.

Also: The fact that this mechanic currently exists is objectively and invariably bad for competitive play. Yes, most of us agree it's not absolutely game-breaking or anything, but there is no positive to leaving it in. Please feel free to argue otherwise, as long as it's not something like "objectively =/= your opinion" or "it's not that big a deal".

 

[MR. K]

which game is more "fun" is honestly subjective ; which game is still technically more polished and better from a competitive viewpoint isn't.

Melee has shown time and time and time again that its just superior to brawl in every way from a competitive viewpoint, and with the new discovery now of brawls random input delay just adds another reason why.


But which game is more "fun" to someone is and always will be a subject of opinion.

 

[Biz_R_0]

@Mr. K competition is a state of mind, there is no way of objectively proving that Melee triggers that state of mind. Also, get out if you're only going to post "Melee is better", it's a dead horse that we're not burying.

I'm pretty sure there exists an exploit within the game of Brawl itself which doesn't require anything from you except an SD card with the proper codes and can load on an unhacked Wii.

I know, but there are people who's computers are old and don't have SD slots.

The fact that Project M has become big enough to be run as a main tournament rather than a side one should be enough indication that things like taking a bit of effort to make custom code a standard is well within the limits of competitive players.

P:M is completely different from vanilla, you literally cannot play the game without the SD card trick. Vanilla just requires you to pop it in there.

Also, the other part was my main reasoning. I did a couple posts on it earlier:

I agree but for a different reason; if we start hacking gameplay in tournaments, we'll basically be admitting to the world that our game is bad competitively. Which I don't think is the opinion of the vast majority of Brawl players, seeing as how they're still playing the game competitively without hacks.

So no one cares if we admit to the world that our game is bad? The hack wouldn't even change anyone's opinions to play, as pretty much everyone who dislikes Brawl dislikes it for more than just that. The only outside impact would be negative, we would've only done it for us and it wouldn't even change that much to warrant the increased difficulty in setting up and the destruction of our game's integrity

 

[Zankoku]

How is it in any way a destruction of the game's integrity? The only difference between applying these changes and Capcom releasing numerous updates to its latest fighter games is the official-ness of the source, and even then we're not even doing anything as big as balance changes; we're pretty much just fixing bugs.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Name one other game that is hacked for competitive play. Aside from TF2 (which is an absolute joke, especially as a competitive game, and even the definition of "hacking" there is debatable), none. And especially no fighting games. We'd stand out as the only one's who have a hacked standard, which would infer that we're the only ones that NEED a hacked standard, making our game look really bad competitively. That would lead to bad publicity (Brawl needs to be hacked to be played competitively, more at 11), making the FGC at large even less likely to accept it.

Also, removing tripping isn't a bug fix.

Also: The fact that this mechanic currently exists is objectively and invariably bad for competitive play. Yes, most of us agree it's not absolutely game-breaking or anything, but there is no positive to leaving it in. Please feel free to argue otherwise, as long as it's not something like "objectively =/= your opinion" or "it's not that big a deal".

Okay, what? You're seriously saying that I can't speak my opinion, even if it's completely relevant? No, I'm not doing that.

Also

most of us agree it's not absolutely game-breaking or anything

"it's not that big a deal".

You see this? Same thing, different wording. The former is exactly what I meant by the latter this entire time.

P.S. "objectively =/= your opinion" wasn't even in reply to that, it was in reply to people insisting that this was objectively horrible, which is a measure of how bad they think it affects gameplay and not of how much it actually does, making it their opinion.

 

[Zankoku]

At this point I don't feel that the FGC would change their opinion whether we altered the game or not; they point to Meta Knight controversy, our restrictive stage list and lack of item play, and all the drama surrounding notable players in our community. Really, applying a hack to eliminate random input delay? That doesn't seem like something the haters would latch onto. Not to mention that the only reason we'd want acceptance among the FGC would be to appear at their major events, of which we already do in several and our games have little hope in EVO for many other reasons.

No, I don't think "we shouldn't hack the game, just think about what OTHER people might think!" is a good reason for looking at the possibility, nor is "no OTHER games do this, so we should just bite the bullet and not do anything either!"

As for random tripping, I don't have much argument either way on that, though if hacking Brawl to remove such issues like random input delay become standard, I do believe that random tripping should also be removed.

 

[Biz_R_0]

At this point I don't feel that the FGC would change their opinion whether we altered the game or not; they point to Meta Knight controversy, our restrictive stage list and lack of item play, and all the drama surrounding notable players in our community.

Fair enough.

Really, applying a hack to eliminate random input delay? That doesn't seem like something the haters would latch onto.

Have you been reading the thread? Haters are already latching onto this, imagine what would happen if we admit that it is as bad as they say and we literally need to hack the game to fix it?

No, I don't think "we shouldn't hack the game, just think about what OTHER people might think!" is a good reason for looking at the possibility, nor is "no OTHER games do this, so we should just bite the bullet and not do anything either!"

Oversimplification combined with exclamation marks to add artificial emotion to the person's point to make it look irrational; nice.

And, yes, the public reception of our game is important because if we have a bad rep, we won't get new players. Imagine how "they need to hack the game to make it playable" would sound to someone just hearing about us.

As for random tripping, I don't have much argument either way on that, though if hacking Brawl to remove such issues like random input delay become standard, I do believe that random tripping should also be removed.

You've just passed your own boundary. This is no longer about bugs and has opened the door to changing mechanics. I'm not saying it's a slippery slope, but not everyone is going to want to stop with just tripping and you're not the ultimate authority.

 

[Zankoku]

What is my boundary? Is that something like your logic I should never be making assumptions about? My simple opinion is that random tripping should be removed if using a hack to eliminate non-balance-related, effectively uncontrollable, game mechanics that have only negative impacts competitively and none positive, becomes standard. It's not much different than a bug, in that sense, and I would say it's certainly less major than, say, setting items to "Off" and "None". Still, this is all contingent on something that is not standard becoming such, so whatever.

And, yes, the public reception of our game is important because if we have a bad rep, we won't get new players. Imagine how "they need to hack the game to make it playable" would sound to someone just hearing about us.

As opposed to "they need to turn off a bunch of janky stages", "they need to ban a character 'cause it's so broken", and "they don't play with items"? The public reception of our game to a relatively new competitive player may be important, but if they go to the FGC for recommendations this wouldn't even be close to the first strike we have on their impressions of our game and how we play it.

And, again, limiting down to this single mechanic of random input delay, besides the connotations behind "patch" and "hack", how is "they need to hack the game to make it playable" much different than "you need to get online and patch your copy of Marvel before it can be used for tournaments"?

 

[dettadeus]

so test results:

Test 1: If the MK is properly spaced, Falco can't punish a PS'd Dtilt on reaction at all. Waiting 12 frames including shieldlag and then taking spacing into account gives MK ample time to react to something Falco is doing or buffer a shield, roll, spotdodge, etc. Usmash whiffs entirely. There are 5 frames of shieldlag on a PS'd dtilt, btw.

Test 2: Buffered Usmash out of Powershield vs MK's dtilt spaced well: Whiffs entirely. Since MK reels back after jabbing with his sword, he gets out of Usmash range as it starts up.

Test 3: Falco buffers another spotdodge out of the PS, MK inputs Dtilt one frame earlier: Success, MK hits Falco on frame 22 of his next spotdodge. The lag is consistent enough for minor adjustments to still be accurate.

Time to mess with save states.

tldr if you're trying to punish Falco's spotdodge with MK's dtilt and getting punished from the lag you're bad at spacing and it's less the lag's fault than yours

 

[Biz_R_0]

(deleted original post because we on-topic now, son)

Since we've been off-topic for 4 pages, here were the tests he did so you don't have to look back:

Test 1: Falco spotdodges, MK Dtilts and misses by one frame, gets powershielded and Falco inputs Usmash in reaction to the PS (meaning 12 frames after it happens, including shieldlag) (MK will be at the best possible spacing to hit Falco with Dtilt)
Test 2: Falco spotdodges, MK Dtilts and misses by one frame, gets powershielded and Falco buffers the PS > Usmash OoS (MK will again be at optimal spacing)
Test 3: Falco spotdodges, MK Dtilts and misses by one frame, gets powershielded and Falco has buffered another spotdodge, MK inputs Dtilt one frame earlier (testing to see if the lag is consistent throughout this exchange such that timing Dtilt earlier by one frame makes it hit one frame earlier)

 

[bubbaking]

Forcing people to practice for and play in tournaments with codes is not a good idea, IMO. It's a vanilla game and we're not the creators of it. Capcom releases patches for their games. We shouldn't be able to force people to require something so specific to play this game competitively. Until recently, I was not even able to acquire a single SD card for myself. What if I wanted to practice for the next upcoming tourney? What are you going to do, provide everyone who asks with a free SD card?

 

[Biz_R_0]

That's more or less what I was saying, but can we try to be on-topic now? I don't mean to minimod but Detta is doing something great for us and I think we should respect that by talking about what he's doing instead of arguing about stuff that will never happen.

tldr if you're trying to punish Falco's spotdodge with MK's dtilt and getting punished from the lag you're bad at spacing and it's less the lag's fault than yours

So is this just a specific example or can it be applied to a lot of other things?

 

[dettadeus]

It's probably more MK specific punishing spot dodges with Dtilt, but someone said that if the MK missed the window by 1 frame and got his Dtilt PS'd, it would be an Usmash to the face. If that happened, you're bad at spacing. The lag would've prevented you from punishing the spotdodge, but if you spaced the Dtilt properly you would not get hit by the Usmash and would probably have a chance to punish that with a buffered move.

The fact that lag is consistent enough to adjust for a second spot-dodge isn't just MK specific though, anyone with a fast enough spot dodge punish could do it a bit earlier the second time and hit.

 

[Zankoku]

I believe the overall topic of this thread is the input delay, which is why I was trying to steer away from the other stuff as far as discussion to removing it in tournament play goes.

Forcing people to practice for and play in tournaments with codes is not a good idea, IMO. It's a vanilla game and we're not the creators of it. Capcom releases patches for their games. We shouldn't be able to force people to require something so specific to play this game competitively. Until recently, I was not even able to acquire a single SD card for myself. What if I wanted to practice for the next upcoming tourney? What are you going to do, provide everyone who asks with a free SD card?

I don't think officialness is really that big when it comes to mechanics irrelevant to any sort of consistent gameplay, but that's opinions so it won't go anywhere. It's a fair enough argument that not every tournament player has an SD card readily available and that alone would be an obstacle to standardizing any sort of game code alterations.

It's probably more MK specific punishing spot dodges with Dtilt, but someone said that if the MK missed the window by 1 frame and got his Dtilt PS'd, it would be an Usmash to the face. If that happened, you're bad at spacing. The lag would've prevented you from punishing the spotdodge, but if you spaced the Dtilt properly you would not get hit by the Usmash and would probably have a chance to punish that with a buffered move.

How far from optimal can Meta Knight afford to space against Falco and still not get punished with usmash? If this is polygon-perfect spacing required then I don't think we can fault human error margins on being bad at spacing.

And if you're interested in testing something I see more often, I'd like to know about how this might affect late attempts to grab someone out of repeated spotdodges.

 

[bubbaking]

Fair enough. I just wanted to point out at something:

The fact that Project M has become big enough to be run as a main tournament rather than a side one should be enough indication that things like taking a bit of effort to make custom code a standard is well within the limits of competitive players.

Project M is growing and Melee is also growing again. From what I've observed, Brawl is dying. It is true that "to make custom code a standard is well within the limits of competitive players," but Brawl's community already isn't that big, compared to other FGs, and performing this kind of action would cut it into a smaller one as there would definitely be people who objected, even if only for trivial, irrelevant personal reasons.

 

[dettadeus]

How far from optimal can Meta Knight afford to space against Falco and still not get punished with usmash? If this is polygon-perfect spacing required then I don't think we can fault human error margins on being bad at spacing.

And if you're interested in testing something I see more often, I'd like to know about how this might affect late attempts to grab someone out of repeated spotdodges.

Spacing:

Top is most optimal spacing (you catch Falco's foot with the tip of MK's sword)
Bottom is least optimal spacing (as close as I could get it without Falco hitting MK with the buffered Usmash OoS)

Can you elaborate a bit on the grabs thing? I'm going to sleep and could test it tomorrow.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

While I don't favor having anyone but the developer edit the game, I wouldn't cry if Tripping and this went bye bye.

 

[Zankoku]

dettadeus: If someone attempts to grab as a punish to a spotdodge and the opponent buffers an immediate repeated spotdodge, can the grab barely miss by a frame or two and still leave the grabbing player at advantage post-recovery?