Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[kuenzel]

Brawl doesn't have characters scoring 1.1 on the tier list. You can win a tourney with C.Falcon (Just ask Ally!) but theres no way you can win one with Pichu, or Roy, or something.

 

[Pakman]

Brawl doesn't have characters scoring 1.1 on the tier list. You can win a tourney with C.Falcon (Just ask Ally!) but theres no way you can win one with Pichu, or Roy, or something.

Chu won one of his Biweeklies with Pichu before I think. Also, Neo has been known to tear people up with Roy.

 

[Winston]

You can win with any character if you're a lot better than everyone else... how irrelevant >.>

 

[Pakman]

You can win with any character if you're a lot better than everyone else... how irrelevant >.>

However, when people are at a similar level of skill, character match ups are completely relevant. Characters are also the central topic of balance issues as well. Chu and Neo were and are top level players in their area, but by no means are they "a LOT better" than everyone else.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm fine with Brawl being less balanced than Melee, if it means that there is a consensus for Dedede's infinite and Planking being banned. That's a tradeoff I'd make any day

hell to the yes

supertruth on this right here.

 

[Brinzy]

Gustav Wind, is your name from Legend of Dragoon, by chance?

It just bothers me to see people act like only 2 or 3 characters can compete in Brawl ... it's actually more than that.

Except there's a difference between what you're trying to say and what Yuna was saying. People call "Waveshining" broken while ignoring stuff that those Brawl characters can do/possess (DDD's d-throw, Snake's utilt and ftilt, etc).

I'm fine with Brawl being less balanced than Melee, if it means that there is a consensus for Dedede's infinite and Planking being banned. That's a tradeoff I'd make any day (MK doesn't need to be banned, though).

hell to the yes

supertruth on this right here.

Except they won't be (universally) banned, so lose/lose for you!

 

[Keen]

Cool story bro

 

[da K.I.D.]

hey, itll be banned at all the tourneys I go to so its W/E

 

[philbobjoe]

Ally didn't win with Falcon. He beat Anther's Sonic in one game in the Grand Finals, so it was counted. It is not Falcon who won, it is Snake. Nice try.

 

[ShadowLink84]

hey, itll be banned at all the tourneys I go to so its W/E

AN banning something=/=it being banned nationally.

 

[AfroQT]

This arguement is important and not useless in anyway at all. Please continue




























In other news, both games are pretty imbalanced.

 

[ShadowLink84]

In other news, both games suck in comparison to guilty gear.

I fixed it for you.

 

[da K.I.D.]

read my post dude, i never said it would be banned universally, i said i dont care whether it is or not, cus it is where i am. what did my post have to do with your response?

 

[ShadowLink84]

read my post dude, i never said it would be banned universally, i said i dont care whether it is or not, cus it is where i am. what did my post have to do with your response?

Hmm? i know you dind't I was thinking of something though that your post reminded me of.

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre weird...

 

[Yuna]

this is actually kind of upsetting as for some unknown reason I was actually looking forward to how you would respond to the point I brought up in the the post below the one you quoted here...

however, I tend to ignore your responces to me, because they do alot of strawmanning and assuming of my points and it seems you try to rope me into debating and talking about things that really dont matter/pertain to the subject matter in a feasible way to being with.

This is rich, coming from the guy who got shredded just days ago in debate and then turned around and said "Of course, I was implying this this which changes my argument entirely. If you didn't assume I was, then you would obviously misunderstand my now entirely different argument!".

But that doesn't matter. What matters is this:
The debate was:
Tournament results are not the end-all and be-all of character viability.

This is what is being debated. I made a point proving how tournament results aren't the you-know-what. You then made this counter-point which had nothing to do with the argument. And you still haven't proven than tournament results are the end-all and be-all of character viability!

ttheres no amount of logic that can make it OK to demean people the way you do just because you see yourself as infallible.

Yes, because it's so demeaning to call someone's argument inane, as opposed to your sig, which is a lie (which would be slander).

I would actually argue that the answer to this question is yes based on the idea that the characters max potential is that of the best player with that character at the current time. No they did not change the games data but before those things were discovered, it was basically as if that data didnt exist anyway. So therefore, the people that took those characters past the limits they had at the time, therefore, there max potential increased at that time.

thats how i see it anyway.

The point was that just because someone isn't currently winning tournaments as a certain character does not mean it's not a viable character to win tournaments with, as character (im)popularity might very well be at play.

This is why tournament results are not the end-all and be-all of character viability.

I just wanted to add that to your post. I'm not try to argue the balance topic since I lack knowledge about Melee. It just bothers me to see people act like only 2 or 3 characters can compete in Brawl ... it's actually more than that.

I was trying to keep it simple. You know what happens when we get eloquent and, you know, deep. There was no need to bring up everything that's broken about Brawl, just the most well-known BS since some guy claimed Melee is less balanced because of waveshining (or whatever he was trying to say).

 

[IrArby]

youre weird...

Its more verifiable than your sig. Shall I sig it?

 

[Yuna]

Its more verifiable than your sig. Shall I sig it?

Oh, please do.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yuna stole my idea.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna stole my idea.

There's enough space on the Internets for us to share this. Join in the fun! Sig it! You know you want to!

EDIT: I see you already did. Sorry, we must've edited our sigs at the same time or something .

 

[IrArby]

Yay for total win sigs!

Btw putting me into your sig would be overdoing this joke so don't bother. Besides I haven't said anything dumb since my last sig.

 

[Yuna]

Yay for total win sigs!

It's a Trifecta of (quite verifiable) Win!

On topic: Maybe it's time for another arbitrary poll? I'm sure the majority will be wrong (as usual), but it's pretty much all there's left to do concerning this subject.

 

[IrArby]

daK.I.D.: didn't you already try this same kinda thing when you edited Yuna's orinial post to better reflect how inhumble you were?

 

[Sky`]

Well...
Brawl has ever fluctuating character tier lists...
Maybe it's too soon to tell.

What really defines a balanced game? O_o
Guilty Gear?

 

[cutter]

I still think my sig is amazing.

And yes Yuna some guy said waveshining was broken indeed. I know the word "broken" is tossed around and used subjectively, but I just say "broken" means something is so powerful that it's the only viable strategy/tactic. That's what we use in MTG when we say a card is broken (for example, Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker).

 

[Yuna]

Well...
Brawl has ever fluctuating character tier lists...
Maybe it's too soon to tell.

Fluctuating my tuchas. The tops barely changed... at all. The biggest difference between the two tier list was that the gap between tiers just got bigger.

You know what? When Melee was first released, each new tier list looked almost entirely different from the one that came before it... except Sheik. Sheik's always been up there.

Brawl's tier list barely fluctuates. It's not too early at all.

I still think my sig is amazing.

And yes Yuna some guy said waveshining was broken indeed. I know the word "broken" is tossed around and used subjectively, but I just say "broken" means something is so powerful that it's the only viable strategy/tactic. That's what we use in MTG when we say a card is broken (for example, Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker).

Correction, he was using waveshining as a paragon of brokenness, stating it as the only fact required to prove Melee being less balanced than Brawl. Which is why I set him straight.

 

[ShadowLink84]

There's enough space on the Internets for us to share this. Join in the fun! Sig it! You know you want to!

EDIT: I see you already did. Sorry, we must've edited our sigs at the same time or something .

XD
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

Which reminds me.
From what i have seen, in comparison to melee and brawl, it appears that the gap between tiers is larger than before.
This would support the argument that brawl is a less balanced game than melee.

Well...
Brawl has ever fluctuating character tier lists...
Maybe it's too soon to tell.

What really defines a balanced game? O_o
Guilty Gear?

A perfectly balanced game will have every matchup being 50:50.
of course that is impossible, because in an effort to make a character unique from the others, there will still be some differentiation that results in said character being better or worse than the others.

For fighting games, Guilt gear is among the most balanced. The worst matchup encountered is 65:35, there is absolutely no character that truly gets hard countered.

That is one of the few games where you can actually main a character and not be forced to switch.

I believe another game that is very balanced is starcraft 2? Correct me if I am wrong i don't remember the name well. That game is balanced primarily because of the fact it is always being patched in order to retain balance.
of course one class or another will do better because, you want the classes to be unique.
Chess is also balanced but I suck at it.

 

[Sky`]

Fluctuating my tuchas. The tops barely changed... at all. The biggest difference between the two tier list was that the gap between tiers just got bigger.

You know what? When Melee was first released, each new tier list looked almost entirely different from the one that came before it... except Sheik. Sheik's always been up there.

Brawl's tier list barely fluctuates. It's not too early at all.

The gaps actually shrunk, if you've been keeping current with tournament records.

Like at our regional, WGF, in which DSF's Metaknight fell victim to a Wario and a Falco.
Falco moved up significantly, so did Wario.
Olimar and Peach also moved up to a high degree.
So did Kirby I assume.
R.O.B moved down.

There's a lot of fluctuation still.

But I guess that hurts the argument for balance.

 

[Yuna]

The gaps actually shrunk, if you've been keeping current with tournament records.

Like at our regional, WGF, in which DSF's Metaknight fell victim to a Wario and a Falco.
Falco moved up significantly, so did Wario.
Olimar and Peach also moved up to a high degree.
So did Kirby I assume.
R.O.B moved down.

There's a lot of fluctuation still.

But I guess that hurts the argument for balance.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the word "Tiers" meant "Tournament results where some characters occassionaly lose to characters they are supposed to win over!" now. I thought "Tiers" mean "Tier List".

And you know why DSF lost to Wario and Falco? Because Wario and Falco have evenish match-ups against him. It doesn't mean that MK isn't still in SS Tier with Wario and Falco far below him! Because Wario and Falco overall have much worse match-ups than MK! If this game was so imbalanced you couldn't possibly lose as MK, we'd either ban MK or just not play the **** game.

Olimar and Peach moved up a bit... but not much. I just said that. A few adjustments here and there =/= Important.

The fact that the Tier list didn't really change much after 6 months worth of time shows us that it's not, at all, "Too early".

 

[da K.I.D.]

so, what youre saying is, im SO EPIC that i just got triple sigged simultaneously.

GODDDDD **** IM AWESOME.

 

[Sky`]

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the word "Tiers" meant "Tournament results where some characters occasionally lose to characters they are supposed to win over!" now. I thought "Tiers" mean "Tier List".

And you know why DSF lost to Wario and Falco? Because Wario and Falco have evenish match-ups against him. It doesn't mean that MK isn't still in SS Tier with Wario and Falco far below him! Because Wario and Falco overall have much worse match-ups than MK! If this game was so imbalanced you couldn't possibly lose as MK, we'd either ban MK or just not play the **** game.

Olimar and Peach moved up a bit... but not much. I just said that. A few adjustments here and there =/= Important.

Alright alright, chill out with yo bold text n sh*t. Good "ol" Yuna I suppose.

I spelled 'occasionally' right for ya. First time I've ever seen you misspell a word. Just noting that. O-o

And that's my point. Wario and Falco have evenish matchups. I'm pretty sure that we never knew that. Or at least, we didn't know for a while. That's quite the Gap there, IMO. To be Even with the 'best character' in the game? That's a big deal right there.
And...

Please Contradict me when I say.

Didn't we once believe that Olimar was the worst character in the game?
I entered a Low Tier tournament just a month and a half ago, and used Peach.
Isn't she the top of Mid, or the bottom of Top?

Those aren't... minor changes.

 

[AfroQT]

Alright alright, chill out with yo bold text n sh*t. Good "ol" Yuna I suppose.

I spelled 'occasionally' right for ya. First time I've ever seen you misspell a word. Just noting that. O-o

And that's my point. Wario and Falco have evenish matchups. I'm pretty sure that we never knew that. Or at least, we didn't know for a while. That's quite the Gap there, IMO. To be Even with the 'best character' in the game? That's a big deal right there.
And...

Please Contradict me when I say.

Didn't we once believe that Olimar was the worst character in the game?
I entered a Low Tier tournament just a month and a half ago, and used Peach.
Isn't she the top of Mid, or the bottom of Top?

Those aren't... minor changes.

At one point MK vs Falco was considered to be horrible for falco, i know for a fact.
Wario has always been a underrated character...he shouldnt be int he Tier he is now.

TBH i dont think the current tier list is a accurate representation of the current metagame. But thats just me.

 

[ShadowLink84]

so, what youre saying is, im SO EPIC that i just got triple sigged simultaneously.

GODDDDD **** IM AWESOME.

Moving on.


i@sky': I don't believe Olimar was ever considered low tier character. So far, the lowest the SBR had him was high-mid tier. As for Peach, I cannot see as to why she would be considered a low tier character, she is definitely better than a few characters that are obviously low tier, like samus.

It ma be that the perception of people is changing, but I don't believe peach and a few other characters you mentioned were ever considered low tier.

 

[Sky`]

@ShadowLink: I Just remember a time, where Olimar, was considered Bad. M2K was the only one saying that Olimar was good.
And Peach has made fantastic strides. She has come a long way from where she was. There was a specific time where Bowser was above her, and she placed her self in low tier, if not... maybe Very bottom of Mid.

 

[da K.I.D.]

when we were still in tehtranslation from brawl to melee, peach and oli were considered to be terrible, because peach couldnt kill to save her life and she didnt have to combos/locks she has now.

everyone made olimar insta-low tier whne they figured out you could ledgehog his up b

 

[Yuna]

I spelled 'occasionally' right for ya. First time I've ever seen you misspell a word. Just noting that. O-o

Oh noes, I misspelled a word at 22:30 at night while doing a paper and multi-tasking Judge Judy on eBay and SWF!

And that's my point. Wario and Falco have evenish matchups. I'm pretty sure that we never knew that.

We did.

Or at least, we didn't know for a while.

Yeah, and? Of course we didn't know much when Brawl was first released. But it's been known for a while, IIRC.

To be Even with the 'best character' in the game? That's a big deal right there.
And...

Not really. Not if you still do not have the upper hand and while that one character has zero disadvantageous match-ups, you still have some (and a few even ones), making it much harder for you to win than that other character.

Which is why you'd be farther down the **** tier list!

Didn't we once believe that Olimar was the worst character in the game?

No, we (and by "we", I mean "The people who matter") never thought this. Olimar without Pikmins, however, has the worst recovery in the game.

I entered a Low Tier tournament just a month and a half ago, and used Peach.
Isn't she the top of Mid, or the bottom of Top?

No and no. By the way, there's High in between Mid and Top.

Peach is the 19th "best" character in the game, 2nd from bottom of D tier, where if SS is SS-Tier, S is S-Tier, A is Top, B is High, C is Upper Mid, D would be Lower Mid... and Peach is 2nd from bottom of Lower Mid.

Those aren't... minor changes.

You know what position she used to hold? 24th. She went up by 5 positions, but it doesn't matter much since she's still unviable and nobody really cares about fluctuations in the bottom half of the tier list, especially not if it's among the unviable characters.

I have no idea where you're pulling your "facts" from. I suggest you stop soliciting said source for facts.

when we were still in tehtranslation from brawl to melee, peach and oli were considered to be terrible, because peach couldnt kill to save her life and she didnt have to combos/locks she has now.

Combos and locks which still fail to make her very viable.

everyone made olimar insta-low tier whne they figured out you could ledgehog his up b

No we didn't. He still has Upsmash, Fsmash, Pikmin camping and the ability to throw Pikmin at you while recovering. People just thought he was Top Tier material until we discovered just how bad his recovery was. But he didn't fall down to Low... at least not in the eyes of credible Smashers.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Oh noes, I misspelled a word at 22:30 at night while doing a paper and multi-tasking Judge Judy on eBay and SWF!

no johns *****.

 

[IrArby]

so, what youre saying is, im SO EPIC that i just got triple sigged simultaneously.

GODDDDD **** IM AWESOME.

Yes, you convinced at least three people all at once to publically announce your inablity to discuss intelligently. If you find that to be "AWESOME", I'm sure theres a Short Bus somewhere waiting to drive you back and forth to school. Congrats!

Tournament results don't equate to tiers.

 

[Lawlb0t]

Some ppl need to get banned.

Anyone defending Brawl in this thread regards to the topic title are just butthurt about Melee and won't admit it, or they are subconsciously butthurt about Melee and don't realize it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No, we (and by "we", I mean "The people who matter") never thought this.

Who are the people who matter? Could you point a few of them out for me?