TheManaLord
Smash Hero
In a big tournament? For first place? I don't give a **** about brawl results I haven't seen any. But I've never heard of M2K losing a tournament.
This is also in respect to AlphaZealot because ONLY first place matters.
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Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**
- Thread starter The Halloween Captain
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This is also in respect to AlphaZealot because ONLY first place matters.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
Who gives a **** what it was supposed to be? It was a competitive game.
Brawl isn't and it wasn't supposed to be.
Hive
Smash Lord
of course it wouldn't serve as a way to know one or the other for sure, I just thought it would serve as a good indication ^^
and anyways, I think you are right that it is too undeveloped right now to tell...
and anyways, I think you are right that it is too undeveloped right now to tell...
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Brawl is certainly competitive whether people still continue to hate on it or not. Utterly undeniable to anyone that attended or witnessed Cataclysm 4 this past weekend, literally the best, most intense, high-level Brawl tournament to date. Changed some peoples opinion of Brawl, and reminded some people of the old school, MLG days.
IrArby
Smash Ace
Yea, I mean all the glaring things that make you a good high ranking character overall have pretty much been found, these are the top/high tier characters. Individual matchups are going to take for ever, I mean how often does a Diddy play Pit in a tournament? Stuff like that is all conjecture right now.
What? The math supports what I've been saying for months? Shocking!
Fade016
Smash Journeyman
I wasen't debating that Marth is good or not earlier. I was debating on if M2K wanted to win he would pick Marth. Not a character he would use to lower his chances of winning. When he better with Marth.
your right it doesnt mean he couldn't win with shiek he proably could win matches, but like you said hes going to play marth because he has a better chance because, marth can compete with the spacies better than shiek. How does this make shiek more capable of winning tournies if she isent as good as marth vsing the spacies trend?
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
brawl+ is the most balanced thing ever
brawl+ any character has a chance (unless someones a douche and decides to play mk in brawl+)
brawl+ any character has a chance (unless someones a douche and decides to play mk in brawl+)
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Too bad we'll never see Ally vs. M2K or any other M2K vids from there
IrArby
Smash Ace
@Fade016: He also said Shiek being 3rd was stupid. Shiek is in no way bad but he likes the Marth CG. If you're going to use M2K's quote you should probably know that M2K's proposed tier list has Shiek at the top. Shiek goes even with Fox just like Marth does. Shiek gets it worse from Falco than Marth does oh btw but Shiek does however beat out Marth and Falcon. Shiek has no bad matches with anyone. Thats what he's saying. She's a great character but Marth is more M2K. Umbreon just drew this big conclusion at the bottom that doesn't have anymore comments from M2K and it doesn't actually fit with everything M2K says.
Fade016
Smash Journeyman
Shiek IMO is better than Marth that is not the point we are reaching at we are not debating who is the better character. Shiek is better just like you said. What people are failing to realize is and you stated your self. Marth goes even with fox and Marth has a better chance against falco than Shiek. The mained people played in top level tournies are shiek spacies and Marth. All the Pro Marth players could beat the spacies because Marth either has an advantage against them or is even. Shiek on the other hand has more trouble against Spacies. If spacies are mainly played in tournies who has a better chance to win tournies if all the people playing the characters skill levels were equal or close to equal. You get Marth winning more often. Shiek coming close but has a more chance of being knocked out by a Falco. Shiek also has a minor disadvantage against fox IMO. Spacies are played more often than Shiek or Marth so you really can't input a great deal if they vs each other.
MuraRengan
Banned via Warnings
Your parallel is way off. First of all you stated that the BEST players won tournaments with Marth, just as the BEST players will win tournaments with MK. Scrub marths will not do well in tournaments, and neither will scrub MKs. That is, of course, unless something changes in brawl.
And what M2K is saying is that he thinks that Sheik can overcome spacies, but that he doesn't yet know how to do it confidently in tournies, and isn't gonna risk the money.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
Everybody is a scrub in Brawl, and lots of Meta's place.
Fade016
Smash Journeyman
"Thinks" but, that really doesn't prove anything. It prolly is possible but, not in this point in time. If the meta gets changed anything can happen.
Nice siggy btw =)
IrArby
Smash Ace
OK to rephrase it, Shiek gets comboed more than Marth when versing Falco. Thats probably the only huge differnence. Shiek pretty much goes even with Fox. M2K has said numerous times that at the highest level, player skill will usually decide the match not your character if you're playing top 4. I'm pretty sure that this evidence compounded with his placement of Shiek at the top spot means he is confident that Shiek could take the Spacies. He even says "it would be so much easier if kdj was still around" meaning he wouldn't have to play/prove Shiek and beat a bunch of Spacies in tournaments since KDJ could do it himself. Shiek is just as viable. But, as he says, tournaments are based way to much on whose still playing or not. Shieks not winning doesn't mean Shiek can't win or won't win, or weren't capable of winning. The fact that it didn't happen is neither impossible or even improbable given the way Melee history has played out as I explained in detail.
Judging by how M2K has basically covered all the points of this discussion in that one conversation, I think I'll go with his pronouncement that Shiek could definetly be the best. "Jason: its based wayyyyyyyyyy too much off individual player skill and popularity and who still plays and who doesnt". This sounds like all of the arguments that I elaborated on that some have called "theory".
M2K has the best Marth, why work on perfecting his Shiek's Spacie game? He doesn't need to prove tiers.
Judging by how M2K has basically covered all the points of this discussion in that one conversation, I think I'll go with his pronouncement that Shiek could definetly be the best. "Jason: its based wayyyyyyyyyy too much off individual player skill and popularity and who still plays and who doesnt". This sounds like all of the arguments that I elaborated on that some have called "theory".
M2K has the best Marth, why work on perfecting his Shiek's Spacie game? He doesn't need to prove tiers.
The most accurate representation of these players at MLG events is actually:
Ken- Marth
Azen- Marth
M2K- Fox
Isai- Falcon
ChuDat- Ice Climbers
KoreanDJ- Fox
PC Chris- Falco
Hugs- Samus
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
no peaches? thats kinda sad
Witch_
Smash Cadet
No, both games are horribly broken in their own right. Melee is overly offensive brokenness, Brawl is overly defensive brokenness.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Interesting point.
IrArby
Smash Ace
No Brawl is broken both offensively and defensively since some players (Falcon vs. MK) have no working defense outside of shield. If a character had it this bad in Melee (none of them do) at least they could wavedash out. The only game that you could argue for Offensive brokeness is 64 but everyone is pretty **** broken so its not actually broken just sweet. One of the most important steps out of Smash Theory Noobdom is to realize that none of the Smash games, not even Brawl, can be summed up so vaguely in black in white terms.
Would you clasify MK as defensive?
Would you clasify MK as defensive?
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
He has unstoppable planking and infinite dimensional cape, so...
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
lol . noob much? wrong much?
Witch_
Smash Cadet
Enh. I tried. I guess I need to take a class.
Wait, nah. Forget that.
Wait, nah. Forget that.
IrArby
Smash Ace
Yea, I think you're exagerating a little but that is the jist of it.
lol just kidding btw.
In all seriousness, both tactics are banned for stalling purposes anyway.
M2K plays Marth mostly, but he could probably win most tournaments he attends with Sheik, Marth, or Fox. In fact he has been playing a lot of Sheik lately. However, if you take M2K out of the equation, North East tournies would have Fox (Jman, Cactuar), Jiggly (Darc), Falco (Eggm), Sheik (Reno), Falcon(Scar) and Marth(HBK) winning all the time.
The original argument in question is that Marth's dominance in melee proves it's unbalance.
Off the top of my head, people currently making themselves known and winning/placing high in tournaments are Jman, Cactuar, Shiz, Silent Spectre, M2K, Mango, Dark Rain, HungryBox. Count the marth mains. I see 1.
M2K skews the balance scale. He is good enough to beat almost anyone with like half the cast of characters. I contend that if you remove M2K from the equation and start looking at the people placing 2nd and 3rd you will see a lot of non-Marths.
Also the meta-game has morphed since the days of MLG. Those results are not 100% representative of the current community.
The original argument in question is that Marth's dominance in melee proves it's unbalance.
Off the top of my head, people currently making themselves known and winning/placing high in tournaments are Jman, Cactuar, Shiz, Silent Spectre, M2K, Mango, Dark Rain, HungryBox. Count the marth mains. I see 1.
M2K skews the balance scale. He is good enough to beat almost anyone with like half the cast of characters. I contend that if you remove M2K from the equation and start looking at the people placing 2nd and 3rd you will see a lot of non-Marths.
Also the meta-game has morphed since the days of MLG. Those results are not 100% representative of the current community.
Fade016
Smash Journeyman
2 Marth mains
Cactuar hasn't played Marth in tournament in like 6 months. He has been playing a lot of fox and falcon. Just ask anyone from the North East. His fox is much better than his marth. Did you see what he did to Darkrain?
Fade016
Smash Journeyman
Cactuar was a god against falcons regardless but, sorry I havent kept up with who cactuar mains thanks for correcting me.
@IrArby a few posts back - your basing everything off of skill and not character match ups with fighting spacies in tournies, if a equal skilled marth player and a shiek player had to vs one of each spacie who would have the better chance of winning acorrding to you shiek and marth would go even against fox, and shiek would be a bigger disadvantage than a Marth.
I don't think anyone ever stated this.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
lol
How the heck would you ban "insane priority"? Or "unstoppable planking" (isn't that just ledge stalling?)
Only IDC is actually banned
Though I'm contesting that
Fade016
Smash Journeyman
How come Marth could win matches by camping and using properly spaced fairs to do dmg with out getting punished. With Jabs that could neutralize projectiles except needles and lasers.
IrArby
Smash Ace
Yea cuz I definetly didn't base everything I said off of what M2K said in that conversation with Umbreon. I said all of that about player skill mattering more than characters (if you're playing top 4). Totally unfounded theory on my part.
Ok if a Shiek out there were equally skilled as M2K's Marth they'd beat out all the tournament spacies since Fox goes equal with Shiek (or almost exactly equal with Fox, Skill is the determing factor here) and that Shiek would have the upperhand in his/her matchup against M2K. Sheiks matchup against Falco, especially a M2K style Shiek wouldn't have much more trouble against Falco since, like his Fox, he'll just Full Jump his aerials (Nair and Fair) to techchase **** and avoid most of Falco's laser game all together. But who is as good or better than M2K? Nobody, especially since good players still left (like Darkrain), he just counters with his Shiek.
M2K has more faith in his sheik when he isn't playing well.
I'm starting to change my mind, I'm finding Brawl to be more balanced. There aren't as many 80-20 matchups as there were in Melee. MK is really the only real imbalance Brawl has, even though he's a big one, the rest of the matchups are pretty good. I have an easier time winning with mid and low tier characters in Brawl than I did in Melee. I have the freedom to main the character I have fun with rather than settling more often, and I can bust out certain characters for certain matchups.
Like in Brawl, if I use Ness, and they don't know the matchup, I pretty much win. In Melee I feel like they could compensate not knowing the matchup with L canceling and combos to punish me. (Even if you don't know the matchup, you know that sheik's down throw to forward air will **** low tiers, for example) I don't really find the brawl equivalent - since nothing is gauranteed, if you don't know your matchups to a high degree, it gives players a chance to compete with the worse characters since they WILL know what is gauranteed in that matchup. I prefer Melee's system of combos, but Brawl's system lends it to be more balanced to me.
Like in Brawl, if I use Ness, and they don't know the matchup, I pretty much win. In Melee I feel like they could compensate not knowing the matchup with L canceling and combos to punish me. (Even if you don't know the matchup, you know that sheik's down throw to forward air will **** low tiers, for example) I don't really find the brawl equivalent - since nothing is gauranteed, if you don't know your matchups to a high degree, it gives players a chance to compete with the worse characters since they WILL know what is gauranteed in that matchup. I prefer Melee's system of combos, but Brawl's system lends it to be more balanced to me.
otg
Smash Master
Melee's metagame has developed over 7 years. Give Brawl that time and I'm sure these matchups will continue to develop and "guaranteed" stuff will develop. Also, I feel that there are many more unwinnable matchups in Brawl that in Melee. If your character got cged 0-death by Sheik in Melee, you could still put up a fight through DI/mashing out of grabs/actually combo and what not when you are NOT grabbed. Certain characters in Brawl get grabbed once and they are Dead (DDD vs. numerous characters/Pika vs. Fox).
Things like this will only develop further as the divide between the top and low tiers continues to increase as the metagame develops.
Fletch
Smash Master
Can't argue with numbers/math, that's the best part. AZ can you address my original post?
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
You can argue anything using statistics.
For example, if we argue the consistency of Melee Marth vs. Brawl MK, one must examine the success of Azen using Lucario in Brawl to consistently place second in national tournaments.
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
Melee is much more balanced than brawl. brawl has little tidbits of stuff that was obviously over looked in production. Tripping (non refutable), inescapable chain grabs (the brawl way takes very little effort to do and has high reward less risk is involved too. IDC, Planking. all the stuff i called on cant be fixed by the nuances of the game so it has to be banned or simply let go. the matchups for brawl and melee really shouldnt be compared because proportionally since melee has much more options the so called "****" matchups in melee could never be as bad as the ones in brawl. Also who started the argument of marth vs mk character wise cause that is somewhat useless please explain.
Side note doesnt sheik have a advantage in the matchup against marth
Side note doesnt sheik have a advantage in the matchup against marth
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
DDD makes more things unbalanced than MK does in my opinion, he has an infinite that can really **** some people over, MK is just good and safe and only ****s a few people over.
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