Is chain grabbing cheap?

[XxBlackxX]

No you can not break out of it. Unless Dedede messes up. You have no control over it. O_o... Thats why it is a chaingrab.

As for how to set up the rules how about this...

Dedede may not perform a standing chaingrab. He is free to perform his running chaingrabs to the end of a stage.

See? Not so hard. If they were to ban it.

there is no reason to ban it though.

 

[Tien2500]

there is no reason to ban it though.

Eh I don't feel like arguing about that right now. I'm just saying it wouldn't be too hard to if they wanted to.

 

[bobson]

But that's not the case. It's not THAT big of a problem at this point. Its been beaten numerous times and there are viable methods of dealing with it. It's not broken if it's beatable.

Technically, Akuma was beatable; being beatable isn't synonymous with being fair. The only reason it's not that big of an issue right now is because there aren't a lot of tournament mains who are affected by it. And a primary reason why people don't main characters affected by the infinite is because--you guessed it--they don't want to waste money losing to an entirely unfair tactic. Do you really think DK would have lower tournament rankings than Peach if he wasn't faced with an effective auto-loss every time he fights a Dedede? Granted, aside from DK, I doubt the unlucky few would do exceedingly well if the infinite was banned, but none of them are Captain Falcon-level bad. They would have a chance if it weren't for the infinite.

Besides...banning something like D3's infinite is a terribly slippery slope to be on if even a FEW people come out triumphant at the end of the match. So many things would match the same reasoning for this being banned. Same deal with MK if I'm understanding that debate as well.

This I agree with. Who's to say Falco's chaingrab to spike on Link shouldn't be banned if this is banned, or the Ice Climbers' infinites? Even so, I don't know of any other techniques that work almost anywhere on any stage and are completely inescapable unless the user screws it up or the stage itself wrecks it.

It's our choice to main characters who can get infinite'd and take them to tournaments, and we hold that burden on our shoulders and we have to deal with it.

That was Matador's point.

It's the tournament organizers' choice to ban a decidedly unfair exploit instead of effectively denying several characters a chance. I don't think it should be our burden if it's directly caused by their rules.

Oh, that number isn't arbitrary at all. The number would be... all the characters that can are not disadvantaged against the infinite-er who are also not utterly unviable for other reasons. If there is ONE (viable) character that has a decent matchup, you second him and it'll be fair again.

But you can't simply pick a second, for the reasons outlined by Tien. Dedede is a popular character; you have a good chance every round of ending up against one, so if you want to have a chance in any way of winning the tournament, your main is now forced to be your second.

I think another we have to consider is that if we were to ban it, how would we enforce the ban? Say the rule is, "D3 cannot grab more than 2 times in a row". Okay, so now D3 grabs twice, releases...and then he hits his opponent with another move that allows him to get a new grab.

So now you say, "OK, D3 must let his opponent move again after the release". But what if, even after that, Mario's still getting grabbed a lot? Is the Mario just bad, or is D3 still broken? This is why its imposible to reasonably ban the grab infinites, it becomes too subjective between tourney judges what consitutes as abusing the grab or not.

"King Dedede may not use standing grab infinites on affected characters. He may still chaingrab said characters."
There you go. There's no issue. The difference between a chaingrab and a standing infinite is entirely objective and it can be easily determined whether the rules are being broken or not. King Dedede doesn't lose his ever-so-loved chaingrab on those four characters, DK suddenly becomes a lot more viable in tournaments, and world peace begins to take place as everyone is happy. Problems would only arise if it was also decided to ban the not-technically-infinite-but-still-pretty-much-0-death chaingrab on Bowser--and that's the main reason I'm not arguing for that to be banned as well.

ok...this is a pointless argument...
you keep saying that just because you main one of the characters affected it should be banned. and yet you admit that you wouldnt want it banned if you were playing the D3. this is kinda stupid to me. so youre saying you want to win, but you still want to main mario. now, now offense to mario mains, but if you want to win you gotta know that he has serveral bad matchups, D3 being one of the worst of course, that you need to have seconds for. now, what is wrong with using them against D3? ok, so its not that simple, you cant start off as mario, and cant use him if they are CPing, so if you main, mario, you have to deal with the fact that your characters has weakness and that you have to cover them!

Let me try to explain this in terms you'll understand.

Suppose tomorrow, a glitch in Metaknight's dtilt is discovered that will instantly kill Falco and Fox. What do you do? Do you concede that it's just your tough luck for maining Falco and switch to someone who can't be instantly killed? Do you push for a ban because it's a programming exploit that makes otherwise good characters completely unviable? Do you show them all how it's done and just "not get dtilted" in every match (After all, I hear you Falco mains prefer the air.)?

 

[Nintendevil]

In fact, what I'd like to see, is more research on those auto grab breaks. Theres still some more questions about that (i'v done it with just the A button, and I'd like to know the timing/frames etc.), but if we start using that every time we see a chaingrab coming, it'll save us a lot.

Anyways, don't get grabbed and counterpick.

 

[Fire7Man7Dan7]

I'm sick of these scrubby threads complaining about "cheap" techniques. When will you understand that playing a fighter at an advanced level means that you have to be as "cheap" (aka EFFECTIVE) as possible and use various tricks to bring your opponent down?

Even if its easy to do the only ones you can blame are the ones who made the game for making it that way. . .fighting in tournament is not about playing with "honor", it is about using every tool you have to your advantage.

If you don't like it quit and take your worthless ideas with you.

Your first two statements I agree with. Although your approach is harsh, its true.

But if you don't like the thread then don't read it. Some people are trying to have a conversation and they don't need someone commenting on how the conversation they are having are of no consequence when it does mean something to them. Be an adult, stay out of conversations you know you wont like.

 

[XienZo]

But you can't simply pick a second, for the reasons outlined by Tien. Dedede is a popular character; you have a good chance every round of ending up against one, so if you want to have a chance in any way of winning the tournament, your main is now forced to be your second.

And thats whats supposed to happen if you run into tons of DDDs, you turn up having your second become your main.

For that series of DDD matches. Afterwards, main is main, second is cheerleading.

I mean, if you get bad luck, you obviously have to adapt. If you are cursed and consistantly run into DDDs, call us; most of us prefer DDD everywhere to MK everywhere.

 

[mc4]

lol definitely a miss quote...yeah it is possible if there is a big skill advantage, but when is that the case, someone show me one video they have seen when a person has dodge all grabs and hasn't been grabbed once by a grab crazy falco or d3 (and even if someone were to that would just prove that the person using the chain grabbing character sucks obviously a person that is skilled with the character would be much more successful, which is my whole point, playing against a skilled character " don't get grabbed", it isn't possible to go a whole match without getting grabbed once by a skilled player sorry i didn't clarify that before i thought it would be obvious. fortunately there are ways for some characters to get out of them now ex- snake pulls out a grenade inbetween grabs. If you don't think that abusing chain grabs is cheap i honestly don't think you can argue ban meta knight because its the same thing. People abuse meta knights moves the same way people abuse chain grabbing. now what...

 

[mc4]

ok...this is a pointless argument...
you keep saying that just because you main one of the characters affected it should be banned. and yet you admit that you wouldnt want it banned if you were playing the D3. this is kinda stupid to me. so youre saying you want to win, but you still want to main mario. now, now offense to mario mains, but if you want to win you gotta know that he has serveral bad matchups, D3 being one of the worst of course, that you need to have seconds for. now, what is wrong with using them against D3? ok, so its not that simple, you cant start off as mario, and cant use him if they are CPing, so if you main, mario, you have to deal with the fact that your characters has weakness and that you have to cover them!

Thats true in some ways but the truth is everyone doesn't take an all business approach to how they play the game. some people choose chars because they genuinely like using that char. or for that matter everyone that doesn't like chain grabbing should just go play meta knights from now on since its always about winning and not enjoying that game and being as cheap as possible because there's no need to enjoy a game when you have to win by all means necessary.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's the tournament organizers' choice to ban a decidedly unfair exploit instead of effectively denying several characters a chance. I don't think it should be our burden if it's directly caused by their rules.

How can you say what's fair or not? What line should we draw the banhammer at? DeDeDe may seem to be an extreme case, but others have things just as bad too, like the Pikachu vs Fox match-up, in which Fox players practically have it worse than we Marios and Luigis do.

Yes, infinites are stupid/cheap and I sympathize with your frustrations over this, but as you said before, it's up to the TO's decision. And if they say the infinite is allowed then well, tough luck for us.

In fact, what I'd like to see, is more research on those auto grab breaks. Theres still some more questions about that (i'v done it with just the A button, and I'd like to know the timing/frames etc.), but if we start using that every time we see a chaingrab coming, it'll save us a lot.

It's not worth it imo. I've got the autosnap plenty of times before (in friendlies), and some times I didn't even push a button. It seems more like a random glitch.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

The only way that a chain grab can EVER BE CHEAP, is that's the only thing you rely on in a match. Chain-grabbing is in no other way cheap( especially with the ice climbers, it so hard to master ). It's just another techique in the game. If they're going to complain about this why not complain about jump-canceling or dash attack-canceling.

 

[Hive]

Doesn't matter, that's why it's not smart to use Samus vs D3. The fact of the matter is that if you ARE so bold and decide to try the matchup in a tournament setting, it's not an auto-loss or anything like that. You can win, so there's no reason to ban it or limit it. It's a beatable tactic.

you're missing my point- i don't think it is a reasonably beatable tactic and it won't really help the metagame of the characters effected....
yes a character can sometimes.... possibly... go a match without getting cg'd... but this is also very unprobable and you can't rely on this in a match as much as relying on say, avoiding smash attacks a whole game, theoretically its just as hard... and just as unlikely to happen.
Any character who can be infinited has to expect a loss vs. ddd... there is no avoiding this... but yes, sometimes we are pleasantly surprised...
ps yes using samus vs ddd is a bad idea at high levels, as you said (and I do actually counterpick zss here) but having an available counterpick is still not the issue.... i just think that there are relatively easy things to change about the rules can balance this matchup a lot more... or at least make it reasonable possible for one side to win... so that skill is more of a determinant in who wins, which is the goal of any fighting game ^^...
pss oh, and I've not trying to attack you matador, I actually think a lot of your reasoning is very intelligent ^^

 

[XxBlackxX]

Thats true in some ways but the truth is everyone doesn't take an all business approach to how they play the game. some people choose chars because they genuinely like using that char. or for that matter everyone that doesn't like chain grabbing should just go play meta knights from now on since its always about winning and not enjoying that game and being as cheap as possible because there's no need to enjoy a game when you have to win by all means necessary.

that is NOT what i meant. i genuinely enjoy brawl and playing as my main, falco. now, falco might be top tier, but he is by no means even close to MK or Snake. and i know that i have some bad matchups (ugh GnW) and will have to pick seconds to balance that. now, do i want to win? of course i do, but i care about having fun also. another reason im falco is because i hate how all the winners of tournies nowdays are MKs and sometimes Snakes (with rare exceptions) and i want to change that. (NOT with a ban on either of them though)

@bobson
well thats a pretty harsh situation, well i could try to argue that D3's infinite is tad harder to do than a ohko move, i do understand it isnt that much harder so its kinda pointless. now, would i push for a ban? hmm...thats a actually interesting thing to think about, and the answer? well first of all, i would definitely try to find a way to "not get dtilted" and i will probably fail. then, it IS a tough decision. honestly, i suppose i might push for a ban because of how widely MK is used in tournies nowdays and i might have to give up my main. but since it only works on fox/falco, i also kinda think it shouldnt be. if MK was any less popular, i would just pick some alts but since hes used all the time, youre right, my main probably will become my second. sorry, but i cant really decide right now what exactly i will do.

EDIT: LOL at myself avoiding the question.....

 

[Matador]

So what happens if you choose to use Samus in the first match of a set? You have no idea whether or not your opponent is going to pick Dedede. So if they do you're screwed. You didn't decide to try the matchup. You just got screwed. So you can't go with your main in the first match. Now if you won a match with your main you have to switch to another character because if you don't you can get Dedede'd. So you can't use your main except as a counterpick. Which means for all practical purposes you can't main any of those characters. Whether or not this is a reason to ban the tactic is a judgement call but its not simply a matter of choose another character for that one matchup.

You're not understanding...it's not even auto-loss for the Samus user. People like Xyro, Bum, and Boss deal with these problems and worry more about GOOD players in a tournament setting as opposed to guys who CP D3 and hope for a free win. All of these character have options and viable strategies for dealing with this matchup. If there was no way around it, I'd agree with you. But people are beating the infinite, it's obviously not game breaking.

Technically, Akuma was beatable; being beatable isn't synonymous with being fair. The only reason it's not that big of an issue right now is because there aren't a lot of tournament mains who are affected by it. And a primary reason why people don't main characters affected by the infinite is because--you guessed it--they don't want to waste money losing to an entirely unfair tactic. Do you really think DK would have lower tournament rankings than Peach if he wasn't faced with an effective auto-loss every time he fights a Dedede? Granted, aside from DK, I doubt the unlucky few would do exceedingly well if the infinite was banned, but none of them are Captain Falcon-level bad. They would have a chance if it weren't for the infinite.

I honestly don't know much about Akuma so I can't really argue that. From what I hear, his air hadoken (or w/e) was broken and made the match pretty much unwinnable. Basically, he was made to be broken; he wasn't made to be even with the other characters.

At any rate, D3 is beatable. This is my point. It's not even an end-all thing if you're grabbed. Not every D3 knows how to properly do the infinite, if you're grabbed under...I think it's 50%...you can still escape, if you're near the edge when you're grabbed then you can autobreak it, and plenty of other things. Aside from that, Samus and Mario can easily play around the edge and bait grabs, Luigi can't be CGd so messing up the infinite once means no infinite for the rest of the stock, and DK has range to compete with D3...which is a terrible matchup without the infinite. It's a VERY different matchup and must be played differently, but coming up against a D3 as one of these 4...or 5...shouldn't be looked at the way you're looking at it.

It's the tournament organizers' choice to ban a decidedly unfair exploit instead of effectively denying several characters a chance. I don't think it should be our burden if it's directly caused by their rules.

If TOs wanna do it, then fine. But I'm talking about tournament standard.

Let me try to explain this in terms you'll understand.

Suppose tomorrow, a glitch in Metaknight's dtilt is discovered that will instantly kill Falco and Fox. What do you do? Do you concede that it's just your tough luck for maining Falco and switch to someone who can't be instantly killed? Do you push for a ban because it's a programming exploit that makes otherwise good characters completely unviable? Do you show them all how it's done and just "not get dtilted" in every match (After all, I hear you Falco mains prefer the air.)?

Lmfao @ this example

It'd prove even further that this game is a progamming failure on many levels for competitive play. You have a point, but SBR consistentcy would suggest that they'd leave this alone and just stamp it as "just another bad matchup"

Edit @ Hive: The thing is...beating D3 as one of these characters isn't rare. It simply becomes a campfest and if you can effectively camp D3, the grab is much less of an issue.

Also, you have to realize, you go into the matchup already knowing what the D3 wants to go for. D3s become terribly telegraphed and, with 2 of these characters having excellent combo games against him, Samus having greater grab range, and DK having ridiculous KO power, you can take advantage of this. They're more of a slave to the infinite than you are.

Basically, know the matchup and get some experience. It gets much easier and much more bearable.

 

[kupo15]

CG's are not cheap, they are just stupid. Cheap is another word for effective and the fact that they are easy and are in the game is just stupid. Thats how I see it.

 

[Nintendevil]

CG's are not cheap, they are just stupid. Cheap is another word for effective and the fact that they are easy and are in the game is just stupid. Thats how I see it.

lol I like this guy. Too bad he wont last long.

 

[XxBlackxX]

CG's are not cheap, they are just stupid. Cheap is another word for effective and the fact that they are easy and are in the game is just stupid. Thats how I see it.

youre contradicting yourself. if theyre effective, how is it stupid?

EDIT: nice post Matador. perhaps instead of trying to ban infinites or even trying to cp as i argued, players of the affected characters could find creative ways of beating them. sure, it isnt easy, but i would think it is possible.

 

[Matador]

youre contradicting yourself. if theyre effective, how is it stupid?

Not stupid, as in, a dumb option during battle. Stupid as in...stupid...like ledge camping.

Very effective, but why do you really want to do that? Unless you're some sort of masochist, of course.

EDIT: nice post Matador. perhaps instead of trying to ban infinites or even trying to cp as i argued, players of the affected characters could find creative ways of beating them. sure, it isnt easy, but i would think it is possible.

Indeed, that's how I see the current state of things.

lol I like this guy. Too bad he wont last long.

Kupo's a Pit pro. Chances are that he knows what he's talking about.

 

[kupo15]

its stupid because something as effective as that is too easy to do esp compared to melee. Melee CG are fine because they were more difficult because you had to react to your opponents DI. But in Brawl, if you do the same simple button input, its guaranteed and there is nothing your opponent can do about it.

 

[Matador]

The difference between the CGs on Melee and the ones on Brawl were that grabs were harder to get on Melee (imo anyways. Shieldgrabbing didn't have the same oomph), and, more importantly, you still had control of your character. You could still try to DI to the left or the right since it wasn't a grab release or anything of that nature; you were essentially techchasing repeatedly, being rewarded for predicting your opponent's intentions correctly.

That's not really how they work on Brawl. A grab for D3 or Falco takes away all control from the opposition until they've had their way. For D3, this is until the stock is gone. Essentially, as Patsie put it, it changes the game temporarily to one-player. There's NOTHING I can do if he doesn't screw up. I can't even try to stop him once he gets that grab, which should be pretty easy because of his ridiculous grab range, wtf projectiles, and brawl's heavily defensive play.

its stupid because something as effective as that is too easy to do esp compared to melee. Melee CG are fine because they were more difficult because you had to react to your opponents DI. But in Brawl, if you do the same simple button input, its guaranteed and there is nothing your opponent can do about it.

Hmm...there's an odd resemblance...

 

[kupo15]

hmmm there is except you worded yours better lol havent been keeping up lol

 

[Yuna]

What people don't understand is that everything in the entire game is cheap. How come D3 isn't even the worst matchups for many of his CG:able (and even some of his "infitable") characters? Because there's so much more to the game.

Just because CG is the same thing over and over again does not make it cheap. It just makes it a combo that is inescapable of performed right. Yes, it's a whole bunch of damage, possibly followed up by a strong finisher.

But that's what you get when you play a character susceptible to CG in the first place. It's like if I had weak legs. If someone were to target my legs specifically in a one-on-one fight, would it be cheap? Or would it just be my own weakness? It's not like I have the choice to switch my legs out.

But in Competitive fighting games, we do have a choice. If you don't like getting chaingrabbed, switch characters. I play Toon Link (among other characters). Toon Link gets chaingrabbed by D3. Once I went up against D3 in a tournament and had to switch out. Who did I switch to? To Pit. Because I thought I could do better despite Pit being CG:able as well. I didn't, so I switched to my "main main", Zelda, who cannot be CG:ed and won hands down.

Did I whine about cheapness? Did I wallow in my own pity? No, I just switched.

Going back to D3 not being the worst matchup for many of his CG:ables:
Because there's so much more stuff in this game that's "cheap". Just because you do not possess a CG in a certain matchup doesn't mean that matchup cannot be terribly slanted.

You can easily 8-2 others simply by just being that much better than them. Range, priority, combos, edgeguarding, gimping. With enough clout, you do not need CG:s to destroy other characters.

So in conclusion: CG's are not anymore cheap than Brawl itself is cheap. Because pretty much anything you can do that's any good in this game is cheap.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think he reason that people feel the Cg is cheap is because only DDD can do it indefinitely while other characters dont have the same method of inflicting the same damage and knocking the opponent off stage.

*shrug*

its not cheap so just dont get grabbed.
Lightning kick him in the face or use Olimar.

 

[Hive]

What people don't understand is that everything in the entire game is cheap. How come D3 isn't even the worst matchups for many of his CG:able (and even some of his "infitable") characters?

wait, which characters that can be infinited don't have him as their worst matchup... ? i'm pretty sure they all do...

edit: people are still under the delusion that you can somehow avoid his grabs the whole game if "you're good enough at spacing."
look at any high level vids of DDD vs. someone who can get cg'd-> zel(DDD) vs. DSF(snake) for example.... (i hate using names ; ;... but ppl won't at least won't argue that he's anything below pro) and see how often he gets cg'd in the match... and say again that its cuz he couldn't space right...

 

[HeroMystic]

wait, which characters that can be infinited don't have him as their worst matchup... ? i'm pretty sure they all do...

DeDeDe is not Mario's worst match-up.

 

[Hive]

DeDeDe is not Mario's worst match-up.

lol, well most ppl on the DDD thread say that its 75-25 DDD's favor... maybe its not mario's worst matchup ^^, i can't say that I would know... but whatever it is its pretty close...

 

[mc4]

It has happened.

first of all i'd like to thank this guy for miss quoting me. second there is an applause in order for your perfect logic. after my reasoning of not getting grabbed being not likely there is a quote "it has happened". here is a short list of it has happeneds.

Mario's and wario's get gimped like crazy usually when playing against a d3 a good mario verse a good d3 will probably not win.
"it has happened"

fox's and wolf's will usually die almost immediately on all stocks once chain grabbed because of the ending dairs and edge hogs by falco. a skilled fox will almost always lose to a skilled falco.
"but somewhere out there in the large universe of smash brothers thats never been seen before it has happened."

The argument isn't if it " has happened" or not the argument is that it can be a very unfair advantage against certain characters that will lose very frequently because of it. Captain Falcon is a bottom tier character, but i'm sure somewhere at some tournament big or small he's won before. that doesn't make him any higher a tier character especially if few people have ever seen it happen. Even when an opponent is just as skilled as the falco user there are some characters that just can't win, same with king d3. I'm not arguing ban it but i'm arguing when used too frequently yes it is cheap. What's too frequently, when it is used on every stock in attempt to zero to death an opponent, and then used again when it doesn't work the same stock, that's too frequently. Falco and d3's are fun characters i like them both, i just don't like how a large number of players tend to use them.

 

[mc4]

"don't get grabbed? impossible!"- definitely not what i said matador you should go back and read that first post and the logic that i used actually makes sense because i gave actually game situations. reading is fundamental.

 

[raydude]

nahhh but infite chain grabs on walls is

 

[Foxy Alopex]

I don't know if chain grabbing is cheap?

 

[Minwu]

Of course it is. Use it to it's fullest extent!

 

[Tamoo]

I always heavily respect those players in tournaments who use characters with chain grabs and can grab very efficiently with them but decide not to use the chain grab. Even they know its cheap, and they clearly wouldnt like a victory using those methods

 

[betterthanbonds9]

i stopped reading at cheap

Spoiler

+1 posts

 

[Falconv1.0]

I dont even know why this topic is still alive.

Any player who is good and has a character who can CG, will CG. This conversation just absolutely ****ing reeks of scrubness. How the hell did you guys play Melee with some of the super easy combos certain characters had.

If a character can get 0 to death by a chaingrab, it probably sucks, and you may want to consider a ****ing secondary.

 

[Hive]

I dont even know why this topic is still alive.

Any player who is good and has a character who can CG, will CG. This conversation just absolutely ****ing reeks of scrubness. How the hell did you guys play Melee with some of the super easy combos certain characters had.

If a character can get 0 to death by a chaingrab, it probably sucks, and you may want to consider a ****ing secondary.

have you even read the thread? no one is arguing that if people can cg they won't hesitate to do it lol
nor are most of us traumatized about chaingrabs being done to us and want to quit the game lol....
and most ppl already have secondaries... but using secondaries to beat ddd isn't the heart of the issue...
this topic is stil alive because ppl want to debate whethere cgs and infinites should be tourney valid or not... so tired of ppl whining about this thread...
I'm sure moderation is perfectly capable of closing the thread if they ever feel it is offtopic or irrelevant....

 

[HeroMystic]

lol, well most ppl on the DDD thread say that its 75-25 DDD's favor... maybe its not mario's worst matchup ^^, i can't say that I would know... but whatever it is its pretty close...

It's 70:30 or 65:35. Most go for the 70:30 though.

G&W is Mario's hardest so far.

 

[Hive]

i thought most went with 75-35 on the thread ; ; i only saw two who said 70-30 and less that said 65-35... lots of 75-35s though...
anyways if i'm wrong sorry... 70-30 is still an awful disadvantage though...

edit:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203265
85-15 1 person (voodoo)
75-25 3(1/2) people (J4pu, R!S3, Neverknowsbest, JST (was between 75-35 and 70-30))
70-30 2(1/2) people (Heromystic, A2ZOMG (only if infinites are banned though)
65-35 1 person (Piginabag)
60-40 1 person (Pdiamond)
i guess the average is between 70-30 and 75-35...

 

[HeroMystic]

The DeDeDe boards are all like 'lolinfinite', so yeah.

Mario has the tools (and the counterpick stages) to handle DeDeDe's infinite, so that's less emphasized. I'm surprised Samus isn't the same way due to the Z-air.

 

[Hive]

zair is fun but only against lower DDDs who can't apporoach well in which case spam ftw lol ; ; actually a lot of DDDs are good about playing up in her face a lot ; ; the damage from infinites/cgs aren't her only problem in the match though...
the cgs also kill her spacing and kOs don't start til over 160% on account of his heaviness and ability to avoid spikes
actually 70-30 does sound about right though ^^ lol I zair
the problem with counterpicking stages though is that although it improves your chances a lot of winning that match if you do win, DDD will get the next counterpick... and that usually isn't too fun
usually DDD's will be able to ban yoshi's island and battlefield for starters too

 

[XxBlackxX]

have you even read the thread? no one is arguing that if people can cg they won't hesitate to do it lol
nor are most of us traumatized about chaingrabs being done to us and want to quit the game lol....
and most ppl already have secondaries... but using secondaries to beat ddd isn't the heart of the issue...
this topic is stil alive because ppl want to debate whethere cgs and infinites should be tourney valid or not... so tired of ppl whining about this thread...
I'm sure moderation is perfectly capable of closing the thread if they ever feel it is offtopic or irrelevant....

ok....cg's are ok and should be used whenever you have a chance, and arent cheap.
infintes, on the other hand, are. but they still shouldnt be banned.

 

[Hive]

ok....cg's are ok and should be used whenever you have a chance, and arent cheap.
infintes, on the other hand, are. but they still shouldnt be banned.

yea ^^ i think a lot of people see infinites as worse... for obvious reasons of course lol
I still think they should be banned but only because it wouldn't effect DDDs metagame (in terms of skill) barely at all if they still had cgs to work with which is already a significant advantage in a match, and would help even out the more one-sided matchups ^^
On infinites do you guys mean only standing infinites, or wall and ledge infinites as well? How about walkoffs?