Is Luigi Really That Good?

[Joeyd123]

Ok, so something I have noticed is how Luigi is incredible against the less smart opponents. However, a quality player usually has an easy time against him. Against bad players he can get easy grabs and combo them for days, but against a good player they know how to get grabbed way more often and know how to DI to minimize followups. Also DThrow --> Cyclone is a super good kill option on bad players, but a smart player can often DI down to escape it making it a way less reliable kill option. Also a smart player has an easy time camping Luigi. With Luigi's poor mobility and rather short range on his fireball, he can be camped.

I have heard people call Luigi overrated and I am starting to agree with them. What do the rest of you Luigi mains think?

 

[Yonder]

I think he is still top 10 at least, for now. As the metagame develops and he gets zoned out by faster characters with more range and projectile spam, he may drop to top 15 at the worst. He still has the best combos in game, along with amazing kill setups, a really good projectile, and extremely good frame data [the best start up data in game by a lot]. That alone will always make him high tier.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Luigi is mid-tier from my experience so far.

 

[sims796]

Mmm, it seems as if the smart player is playing against a stupid Luigi.

 

[JohnnyB]

Getting a lot out of grabs boosts luigi considerably. Shielding is powerful in this game and grabbing is the best way to deal with it, so naturally a character like Luigi that has kill options and amazing combos is always going to rank highly (unless shields get nerfed).

Compare this to someone like fox who can't kill out of a throw and you can see why Luigi is better. If fox grabs you, oh well he'll get some % on you. If Luigi grabs you your in for some pain.

 

[lijero13ss]

Luigis is that good. He is definitely Top 3 in my eyes. But smarter players will be able to handle the MU better, aka not get hit for 50% out of one dthrow. They can DI his throws correctly to avoid more than one follow up and can gimp him easier than players more unfamiliar w/ how to deal with him.

 

[BlueBirdE]

Luigi faults are exposed when players start zoning him and abusing his traction and recovery. Still, its like people have posted his frame data is amazing and his grab reward, regardless of di, is THAT good. With that said i feel he is stop 3 and top 10 at worst. Some characters past top 10 and even 15 can give luigi a bit of difficulty but nothing he cant handle in the end.

 

[chic_]

Yes he is that good that's why there are so many luigi mains in smash 4. I don't remember any other luigi mains around my region other than dakpo during the brawl era and now i see tons at every tourny i go to (most suck). i miss the underdog feeling that i got using him during the brawl days. the last time i had a match with commentators the first thing i heard them say was "luigi is such an amazing player in this game" and that left a sour taste in my mouth. oh well, i am a fan of the character not his tier level

 

[MonkeyArms]

When I say Luigi is mid tier I mean it. He has just as many bad match ups as good ones.

If you really think I'm a stupid Luigi, explain why I consistently place.

 

[J.Miller]

Luigi is an amazing character, for the reasons Yonder has listed.
I feel when I watch play that is not exactly top level, I see cookie cutter decision making getting Luigi a little too much mileage when it's not the character in question but the lack of knowledge against him until you reach a certain point.
For being such a good character, he has quite a few questionable match ups that can give him a harder time than what you would immediately think.

The d-throw > Cyclone although there have been rare instances in which I've seen some really peculiar DI to genuinely get out of the set up, if you see an opponent fall out before the last hit it's due to the Luigi player not correctly mashing against the body type of the recipient. It differs due to fall speed, model and weight, some body types it's ridiculously easy and others you can't be too greedy and want more height from the cyclone.

Fighting against Luigi is a frustrating experience for the fact he highlights mistakes made in neutral and can really make you pay with your stock at an alarming rate.
Whiff a dash grab at 60%- 85% = Equals death (up B)
Rage and Cyclone it varies but if Luigi has prolonged his stock and the opponent is 80% onwards it's far from unrealistic to die to the set up.
Damage accumulation from pretty much every button we have is amazing.
KB values on various moves and d-throw set ups in general mean a lot.


Is Luigi a constant tournament threat? Definitely, that can't be denied anyone who denies otherwise is deluding themselves but I see a annoying amount of ignorance even when it comes to simple things like d-throw DI, being careful whilst playing neutral vs Luigi, getting a hit and SHIELDING as you know either N-air/cyclone is coming both options are beaten by just having discipline and exploiting his recovery.

Aside from sweetspotting the ledge with up B... side B and down B have notable cooldown you just have to be aware both specials CAN severely punish wreckless edgeguard attempts. Calculated attempts, things get more tricky... this is when wavebounced fireballs, f-air etc have to come into play.
In terms of how good Luigi as it stands, we have near nothing to complain about.
Although I can't help but feel because of how overwhelming his strengths can be when he has the momentum that unless you practice the mu a lot and have a character who does fight him well in neutral and exploit his poor airspeed he can be placed on a pedestal where he may not belong in terms of placing.
I will make one thing clear though, he has no unwinnable match ups, and if he remains untouched he is a perfect demonstration of what a character should be.
Viable, dominant when able to effectively put the gameplan to work, notable weaknesses to counter strengths.

The weaknesses being... Lack of range, *Yes dash grab is amazing, but if grab amour were still a thing I'd entertain the complaint more getting grabbed is gonna happen but I do wonder if people ask themselves often enough why they got grabbed initially* very reliant on second jump for extended offense and/or getting back to the stage safely. Lack of traction, so wanting/needing to perfect shield to stay in and apply pressure, shielding simply is more often than not just not good enough.

 

[Jiggly]

imo he's the 4th best, due to his sliding is recovery bringing him down below sheik, rosa, and pika.

 

[TriTails]

I don't think he is Top 10. Top 15 is reasonable. But me, I don't expect him getting to top tier if there are no more balance patches. He simply has too many bad MUs to get to the top... at least for now.

 

[Wintermelon43]

4th place. Bad Matchups for some characters and bad speed. Comboing makes up for it.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

When I say Luigi is mid tier I mean it. He has just as many bad match ups as good ones.

If you really think I'm a stupid Luigi, explain why I consistently place.

Okay I'll bite because I'm legitimately curious.

If Luigi is mid tier, can you name some characters you think are better than him and maybe a brief reason as to why?

 

[Love Train]

Luigi is top 10 at the least. He can combo pretty much all but the lightest of characters for more than 30% off of a grab. He can zone (albeit not the best) with his fireballs and he can combo into grabs as well. His recovery may be linear but jump+UpB with momentum is just way too fast for some people to react. There's too much about his air game to talk about but it's just so good.
I'd say top 3.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Okay I'll bite because I'm legitimately curious.

If Luigi is mid tier, can you name some characters you think are better than him and maybe a brief reason as to why?

I don't judge off how much better they are than other characters, but here you go anyways.
Villager: Doesn't have as many bad match ups.
Yoshi: Amazing at everything.
Captain falcon: racks up damage and kills early.
Peach: You'll know when you play a high level peach.
Roy: Does the same thing as falcon.

 

[TriTails]

Me and Yonder had pretty much defended Luigi since release of 3DS on GFAQs. We kept trying to convince people that Luigi is mid tier... and almost nobody listened, really.

Then patch 1.0.4 came out, Boss and False happened... And people went from 'bottom tier trash' to 'OP!'.

Good times.

 

[sims796]

I'm still confused. It seems like even in his bad match-ups (that aren't abysmal, but every character seems to have one), he has more than a fighting chance, and can still apply his strengths.

 

[TriTails]

I'm still confused. It seems like even in his bad match-ups (that aren't abysmal, but every character seems to have one), he has more than a fighting chance, and can still apply his strengths.

Yeah. Villager and Mega Man keeping you out don't mean you can't combo their ***es hard. Particluarly Mega Man. Villager has that combo breaker N-air but it's easily baited and punished. Villy has bad grabs as well.

Same goes for Pac, Lucas, and Greninja.

 

[J.Miller]

Sorry guys, but our character being considered a mid tier is a joke.
We are privileged in this game, I hope it remains unchanged I want no nerfs but no buffs in any respect are needed whatsoever.
We have a character who has a dominant gameplan, and weaknesses that can be resolved realistically with solid gameplay and playing neutral correctly.
Luigi is definitely 5th-10th and is it arguable that he is better but imo the reasons why he is not top 3 material is because of the various bad match ups he does have but the thing is none of those mu's are unwinnable hard to overcome at times however it's nothing in comparison to brawl era.

 

[lijero13ss]

^ Agreed.

The whole "underrating your character" is common in this thread. Luigi is definitely a top tier. Top 10 guaranteed. Top 5 nearly guaranteed.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Sorry guys, but our character being considered a mid tier is a joke.
We are privileged in this game, I hope it remains unchanged I want no nerfs but no buffs in any respect are needed whatsoever.
We have a character who has a dominant gameplan, and weaknesses that can be resolved realistically with solid gameplay and playing neutral correctly.
Luigi is definitely 5th-10th and is it arguable that he is better but imo the reasons why he is not top 3 material is because of the various bad match ups he does have but the thing is none of those mu's are unwinnable hard to overcome at times however it's nothing in comparison to brawl era.

Mid tier is considering when people are playing every character. He's like Rob level, a high mid tier/low high tier that is deadly to opponents that don't know what they are doing.
Here's some better examples of top tiers:
(Possibly
And high tiers: (possibly
With the majority of the cast falling into mid tier: (possibly
Low tiers:
And of course, bottom tiers:

There you have it, my tier list for each character.
Keep in mind high mid tier is still around 15th.

With that being said, the main problem with ranking a character in this game is tiers don't really matter that much as all the characters are viable. It makes it pretty hard to place them.

 

[TriTails]

Sorry guys, but our character being considered a mid tier is a joke.
We are privileged in this game, I hope it remains unchanged I want no nerfs but no buffs in any respect are needed whatsoever.
We have a character who has a dominant gameplan, and weaknesses that can be resolved realistically with solid gameplay and playing neutral correctly.
Luigi is definitely 5th-10th and is it arguable that he is better but imo the reasons why he is not top 3 material is because of the various bad match ups he does have but the thing is none of those mu's are unwinnable hard to overcome at times however it's nothing in comparison to brawl era.

Since you are the only Luigi to have won a regional, what do you think of Mega vs Luigi? This board think it's our worst (70:30 Mega's favor, the general consensus), and it's kinda hard to think Luigi is 10th with that AND combined with his other bad ones.

IMO, his bad MUs are:


Greninja... has that Shuriken and crazy mobility. His U-smash is also pretty darn good. He out-ranges us good, and Hydro Pump push can be used to juggle use when we are juggling him. People say Luigi can't approach because of fully charged Shruikens but tbh they can be shorthopped.

Lucas... Z-air? People are saying he beats Luigi but IDK. But he is definitely harder than Ness due to better mobility + Better Magnet + Z-air.

Mega should be fairly obvious. Pellets and his crazy B-air gimps. He also can ignore juggling by using Leaf Shield.

Pac-Man is on how he can camp well. Hydrants and trampolines make it hard to approach, and he has TONS of other shenanigans (F-air'd Hydrant approach. Red trampoline gimp. Angry Hydrant. 'Bust people to the stage' tranpoline. Ground trampoline to mess with approaches, etc).

ROB... Lasers and gyro make it hard to approach. If you get hit, you lose neutral. But we own him hard when we get close and gimp him well.

Villager is kinda wierd. But Fireball vs Pocket and Lloid... the latter wins. Hard. He also has that annoying slingshots, and gimp-no-MURDERS our recovery with bowling balls.

Wario camps us really well. It can be hard to catch him with his aerial mobility and Chomp beats a lot of our options.

Rosa should be also obvious. Though, we can Fireball over Luma and hit her, and she dies really early from our kill setups.

Sheik is even more obvious, but lots of people think she is a very hard MU for Luigi which I disagree with. SH Fireballs can do wonders.

MonkeyArms: Mid tier is NOT around Top 20... it's about 21th and beyond. 15th is high tier considering how big the roster is.

 

[J.Miller]

I'm sorry but if I was losing 7 games straight and only taking 3 out of ten I would be asking myself what I'm doing wrong.
Pellets are definitely troublesome, can't be denied.
Heavyweight, pellets do a decent job of keep away, B-air fresh is a great edgeguard tool and moves that can hit hard enough to take a stock if MM gets a read.
The damage we get once we have momentum as opposed to what Megaman has to do for the entire match consistently is another point I'll bring up quickly. Whereas the mu is not a walk in the park, 3:7 I really do not believe at all.
The problem is, literally once we have a hit confirm or a d-throw combo what moves of Megaman's should we really be getting hit by for our pressure to relent? *What get off me buttons does he have? neutral game sure we have to respect him but I can't sit and type here saying we don't have a moveset that doesn't possibly get around variant pellet use.
Megaman can have a hard time trying to land even using his up-b in a smart way and then using double jump, it's not like Luigi doesn't have several moves to make landing a chore.
ZZS overlaps R.O.B in terms of difficulty IMO.
R.O.B is about not getting overwhelmed by his barrage of projectiles...We can reliably beat his rhythm of projectile usage through literally walking,perfect shielding, jumping and even throwing out fireballs to clash with gyro. Periodic and sensible fireball use mid-screen when you know laser is an option by now we all know laser is not a option at all times.
The adaptation from R.O.B will be when other hitboxes come into play to frustrate Luigi... that can make it challenging but "bad" I'm not so sure.
Villager, Pac-Man, Greninja, Rosa, Sheik - I do consider these mu's worthy of being known as bad or difficult.
Though Sheik is blown over board more often than not IMO.

Wario... I'm under the belief we beat him in this game to be blunt.
Bite is strong when players are not aware of the options they have to beat it, we beat bite on start up with jab, spaced correctly you can roll through a bite attempt we get a d-throw punish.
The recoil bite has after swallowing a fireball is also notably, what we can't do are the following:
Sit in shield
Press a button once bite is already out
Purge ourselves on a platform like the 2nd tier/3rd of BF for too long without accounting for bite attempt as a mix up.
Spotdodge
Wario from the ledge is also an issue, but he doesn't beat all ledge options just a good number of them.
Even if we are getting hit by bite it's 9% it's not the end of the world, but it's good stage positioning for him.
Frame data and what we reliably get from conversions I feel is what gives us the edge in this MU... Wario being heavy and having waft as a threat after a 1:00-1:30 or fully charged is also something we have to watch out for.
Aside from waft, Wario's buttons are pretty mediocre and Wario has a harder time dealing with good use of fireballs.
Least this is what I currently feels he has issues with, it's not a mu where we can afford to slip up but I do feel we win.

 

[MonkeyArms]

MonkeyArms: Mid tier is NOT around Top 20... it's about 21th and beyond. 15th is high tier considering how big the roster is.

For the last time: How many characters there are in the roster does not decide placements of characters. Have you even played brawl?

 

[Yonder]

I'm sorry but if I was losing 7 games straight and only taking 3 out of ten I would be asking myself what I'm doing wrong.
Pellets are definitely troublesome, can't be denied.
Heavyweight, pellets do a decent job of keep away, B-air fresh is a great edgeguard tool and moves that can hit hard enough to take a stock if MM gets a read.
The damage we get once we have momentum as opposed to what Megaman has to do for the entire match consistently is another point I'll bring up quickly. Whereas the mu is not a walk in the park, 3:7 I really do not believe at all.
The problem is, literally once we have a hit confirm or a d-throw combo what moves of Megaman's should we really be getting hit by for our pressure to relent? *What get off me buttons does he have? neutral game sure we have to respect him but I can't sit and type here saying we don't have a moveset that doesn't possibly get around variant pellet use.
Megaman can have a hard time trying to land even using his up-b in a smart way and then using double jump, it's not like Luigi doesn't have several moves to make landing a chore.
ZZS overlaps R.O.B in terms of difficulty IMO.
R.O.B is about not getting overwhelmed by his barrage of projectiles...We can reliably beat his rhythm of projectile usage through literally walking,perfect shielding, jumping and even throwing out fireballs to clash with gyro. Periodic and sensible fireball use mid-screen when you know laser is an option by now we all know laser is not a option at all times.
The adaptation from R.O.B will be when other hitboxes come into play to frustrate Luigi... that can make it challenging but "bad" I'm not so sure.
Villager, Pac-Man, Greninja, Rosa, Sheik - I do consider these mu's worthy of being known as bad or difficult.
Though Sheik is blown over board more often than not IMO.

Wario... I'm under the belief we beat him in this game to be blunt.
Bite is strong when players are not aware of the options they have to beat it, we beat bite on start up with jab, spaced correctly you can roll through a bite attempt we get a d-throw punish.
The recoil bite has after swallowing a fireball is also notably, what we can't do are the following:
Sit in shield
Press a button once bite is already out
Purge ourselves on a platform like the 2nd tier/3rd of BF for too long without accounting for bite attempt as a mix up.
Spotdodge
Wario from the ledge is also an issue, but he doesn't beat all ledge options just a good number of them.
Even if we are getting hit by bite it's 9% it's not the end of the world, but it's good stage positioning for him.
Frame data and what we reliably get from conversions I feel is what gives us the edge in this MU... Wario being heavy and having waft as a threat after a 1:00-1:30 or fully charged is also something we have to watch out for.
Aside from waft, Wario's buttons are pretty mediocre and Wario has a harder time dealing with good use of fireballs.
Least this is what I currently feels he has issues with, it's not a mu where we can afford to slip up but I do feel we win.

I agree with the Wario bit, I've never had a big problem with him through consistent play. Not a walk in the park, and Wario is only really going to win this if he just camps the whole game, fireballs will really help keep close though if it's a stall game.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Arguably:

"Top tier"

 

[TriTails]

I'm sorry but if I was losing 7 games straight and only taking 3 out of ten I would be asking myself what I'm doing wrong.
Pellets are definitely troublesome, can't be denied.
Heavyweight, pellets do a decent job of keep away, B-air fresh is a great edgeguard tool and moves that can hit hard enough to take a stock if MM gets a read.
The damage we get once we have momentum as opposed to what Megaman has to do for the entire match consistently is another point I'll bring up quickly. Whereas the mu is not a walk in the park, 3:7 I really do not believe at all.
The problem is, literally once we have a hit confirm or a d-throw combo what moves of Megaman's should we really be getting hit by for our pressure to relent? *What get off me buttons does he have? neutral game sure we have to respect him but I can't sit and type here saying we don't have a moveset that doesn't possibly get around variant pellet use.
Megaman can have a hard time trying to land even using his up-b in a smart way and then using double jump, it's not like Luigi doesn't have several moves to make landing a chore.
ZZS overlaps R.O.B in terms of difficulty IMO.
R.O.B is about not getting overwhelmed by his barrage of projectiles...We can reliably beat his rhythm of projectile usage through literally walking,perfect shielding, jumping and even throwing out fireballs to clash with gyro. Periodic and sensible fireball use mid-screen when you know laser is an option by now we all know laser is not a option at all times.
The adaptation from R.O.B will be when other hitboxes come into play to frustrate Luigi... that can make it challenging but "bad" I'm not so sure.
Villager, Pac-Man, Greninja, Rosa, Sheik - I do consider these mu's worthy of being known as bad or difficult.
Though Sheik is blown over board more often than not IMO.

Wario... I'm under the belief we beat him in this game to be blunt.
Bite is strong when players are not aware of the options they have to beat it, we beat bite on start up with jab, spaced correctly you can roll through a bite attempt we get a d-throw punish.
The recoil bite has after swallowing a fireball is also notably, what we can't do are the following:
Sit in shield
Press a button once bite is already out
Purge ourselves on a platform like the 2nd tier/3rd of BF for too long without accounting for bite attempt as a mix up.
Spotdodge
Wario from the ledge is also an issue, but he doesn't beat all ledge options just a good number of them.
Even if we are getting hit by bite it's 9% it's not the end of the world, but it's good stage positioning for him.
Frame data and what we reliably get from conversions I feel is what gives us the edge in this MU... Wario being heavy and having waft as a threat after a 1:00-1:30 or fully charged is also something we have to watch out for.
Aside from waft, Wario's buttons are pretty mediocre and Wario has a harder time dealing with good use of fireballs.
Least this is what I currently feels he has issues with, it's not a mu where we can afford to slip up but I do feel we win.

IMO, what makes Wario win is on how he can just fly over our head and run away the entire match. Our mobility makes it hard to catch Wario in the air, and he can ride the wind the entire match and still get 3-4 Wafts. Sure, we can catch him, but Bike + aerial mobiliy generally make it tough. Sure, we can avoid the Wafts, but the hitbox is about ten times the size of an elephant and gimp us like bowling balls. It also has very fast startup. When he get a Waft and we are off-stage, that stcok is gone. Bike also tanks through Fireballs and is an annoying projectile in its own right.

Aside from that, I agree with most.

Wario is only really going to win this if he just camps the whole game

He can and he will.

 

[Deleted member]

I do believe Luigi is a very good character in this game and I think that he is within top 10.

Luigi's combo ability, options in neutral, great frame data, and many KO options will make him a constant threat. What keeps me from thinking that he is top 5 material for me is that he has some very exploitive weaknesses, such as terrible traction, camping is his worst enemy, and a recovery that is both predictable and easily gimped.

I would sit Luigi at 6 or 7. He preforms well in many matchups and can hold his own against some top tiers, but he struggles in some fights on both ends.

 

[lijero13ss]

There are some MUs where its not as easy as other MUs are. This doesn't mean he loses to them. IMO the only MU he loses are Sheik Rosa Megaman and Zss. Everyone else is more of a 50-50

 

[MonkeyArms]

IMO the only MU he loses are Sheik Rosa Megaman and Zss. Everyone else is more of a 50-50

I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.

 

[Love Train]

I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.

At least it's not as crazy as thinking that WFT is bottom tier.

 

[TriTails]

Arguably:

"Top tier"

...What.

I'm sure you are not serious about this because you say Falcon is 65-35 in our favor not too long ago yet you put him there. Even if you are, the list is pretty darn questionable.

 

[Underhill]

Yeah, Luigi is really good in this game. Not top 5, but 10 at the very least. His combo potential is the best along with Sheik in the game, his neutral game is good, so as his grab game, his fireball is good for jabs, baiting rolls, spot-dodges, spacing your opponent out, and getting grabs as well, having many ko options and even set-ups along with from d-throw to n-air or tonardo. What holds him back from becoming top 5 is bad air speed, bad traction, gimpble recovery, slow falling speed so he can have a hard time landing against characters who are fast enough to catch his landings, has trouble appoarching, and dealing with camping is the worst for him.

Good match-ups: He has the tools to take on , , , , , , , ,, and heavyweight characters who get comboed easily like Bowser and DK(unless with customs, it may be even or slighty in Luigi's favor) and low tier characters like , , and.

Difficult match-ups: However, he can have a hard time against , , , , and .

 

[MonkeyArms]

...What.

I'm sure you are not serious about this because you say Falcon is 65-35 in our favor not too long ago yet you put him there. Even if you are, the list is pretty darn questionable.

I'm not puttting what I say is, I'm putting what match ups luigi loses, and ones he arguably loses. I don't really see how its questionable. Also in case you didn't notice I didn't put what you listed.

 

[TriTails]

I'm not puttting what I say is, I'm putting what match ups luigi loses, and ones he arguably loses. I don't really see how its questionable. Also in case you didn't notice I didn't put what you listed.

Seeing on how you put Link and TOON LINK of all characters in 'MU Luigi loses' and not 'arguably', yes, it's questionable.

 

[MarioMeteor]

He's definitely one of the best characters in the game, but I do think he's overrated. As much as I love the Green Thunder, his weaknesses are very, very crippling and apparent, and against someone who knows how to exploit those weaknesses, Luigi's gonna struggle. The tier list has him at 3rd best. Like, what actually the ****?

 

[TriTails]

Seeing on how you put Link and TOON LINK of all characters in 'MU Luigi loses' and not 'arguably', yes, it's questionable.

Gah. Apologies. I was at my boiling point when I wrote that.

Anyhoo, I fail to see how Luigi loses to Link. Shields are still strong against him and Fireballs helps a lot. We combo him hard and he is not that hard to gimp. He has good advantage, sure. But his disadvantage is terrible and we don't have much problems approaching due to shields and Fireballs.

TL is the same except he is faster and floatier, and less range. His arrows are even slower than Link, he got no off-stage game (Good luck gimping with a suicide D-air), still bad recovery, packs much less range as well. TL boards think Luigi is one of their worst MUs so that's that. And I'm not sure if I'm pointing at scrubby players either.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Seeing on how you put Link and TOON LINK of all characters in 'MU Luigi loses' and not 'arguably', yes, it's questionable.

Well you probably only played noobish links. At high level, Link wrecks Luigi.

Gah. Apologies. I was at my boiling point when I wrote that.

Anyhoo, I fail to see how Luigi loses to Link. Shields are still strong against him and Fireballs helps a lot. We combo him hard and he is not that hard to gimp. He has good advantage, sure. But his disadvantage is terrible and we don't have much problems approaching due to shields and Fireballs.

TL is the same except he is faster and floatier, and less range. His arrows are even slower than Link, he got no off-stage game (Good luck gimping with a suicide D-air), still bad recovery, packs much less range as well. TL boards think Luigi is one of their worst MUs so that's that. And I'm not sure if I'm pointing at scrubby players either.

Here's what I really hate when talking about match ups with other Luigis, they only rank the match up off how easy it is to combo more than anything else. Heck, people probably say Ike is 75:25 when its really somewhere around 65:35

Toon Link has always been a better character than Link. Don't believe me? Look at the tier lists for both games. They should mainly play spacing from the air, not spamming from the ground like a normal boring link that has no idea what he's doing. The main thing about toon link is he can actually jump away or run away from Luigi, and Link has to knock him away.

 

[BSP]

From an outside perspective, I think Luigi is top 10 but not top 5.

His frame data, combos, KO confirms off of grabs, raw damage, and fireball make him a serious threat in neutral, advantage, and disadvantage (combo breaker wise). Honestly, if you're not playing a character that can camp him easily (and even if you are...), you should be terrified of Luigi getting in at any given moment.

However, he's got weaknesses that are exploitable, and they will get exploited more over time. His mobility is very poor, he has low range, his recovery has decent vulnerability, and his traction is low. As people get better at the game and realize that running away from Luigi 100% of the time is a very good idea, all of these things will get exploited harder.

That being said, I don't see him falling below top 10. His reward is that insane.