Is Luigi Really That Good?

[J.Miller]

Gah. Apologies. I was at my boiling point when I wrote that.

Anyhoo, I fail to see how Luigi loses to Link. Shields are still strong against him and Fireballs helps a lot. We combo him hard and he is not that hard to gimp. He has good advantage, sure. But his disadvantage is terrible and we don't have much problems approaching due to shields and Fireballs.

TL is the same except he is faster and floatier, and less range. His arrows are even slower than Link, he got no off-stage game (Good luck gimping with a suicide D-air), still bad recovery, packs much less range as well. TL boards think Luigi is one of their worst MUs so that's that. And I'm not sure if I'm pointing at scrubby players either.

Toon Link is actually being slept on in terms of this match up.
I read they believe it's heavily in Luigi's favour and realistically it's not.
Toon link not having a offstage game is kinda funny to read, he has active hitboxes that have a notable amount of KB and projectiles that are hit confirms to continue more pressure. TL is a character who can really take full advantage of Luigi's poor airspeed.
I have a tournament set with a TL that I will link in the video archives soon enough, but that MU is not hard win or loss for either character.
Whoever can fulfill their gameplan better will take the set.
L

Well you probably only played noobish links. At high level, Link wrecks Luigi.

Here's what I really hate when talking about match ups with other Luigis, they only rank the match up off how easy it is to combo more than anything else. Heck, people probably say Ike is 75:25 when its really somewhere around 65:35

Toon Link has always been a better character than Link. Don't believe me? Look at the tier lists for both games. They should mainly play spacing from the air, not spamming from the ground like a normal boring link that has no idea what he's doing. The main thing about toon link is he can actually jump away or run away from Luigi, and Link has to knock him away.

What are your reasons for Link wrecking Luigi at high level?

I have experience vs notable Links, the MU is not free for Luigi at all but wrecking Luigi is also a strong statement.
Link has a respectable zoning game, a hit confirm f-smash (1st hit being safe unless perfect shielded and then gets to determine if he wants to continue), jab used to be great but now it's a poke that still does the job.
Link does well and can kill convincingly, Luigi once he has closed the distance has the frame data to keep Link quiet so I'm not sure what ratio you believe it is so I'm asking.

 

[DRX_MDDDGT]

Honestly, I do feel like Luigi is a bit overrated, I don't have the prestige so I doubt many people will agree with what I have to say, but anyway.

I place Luigi at least in top 15, but not top 5. I think his MU vs is pretty dang bad (which is an important MU) and he also has trouble with and I think that and beat him when customs are turned on. Luigi IMO was much better when Diddy was a huge pick, bc even at Diddy's best Luigi was really good against him, and since everyone played Diddy it made Luigi a lot better. Metagame matters IMO.

As for whether he is "top" or "mid" tier, it depends on how you're going to define it. This game has a lot of characters and a lot of match ups, if top tier is defined as "few to no bad match ups" then you're only going to find 3-4 characters there.

It's worth noting that the only Luigi we saw in top 32 of EVO was Larry Lurr using him as a secondary and losing to Samus who many regard as terrible. There were two Luigi's (False at 13th and JMiller at 17th) at Apex within top 32. Sure, perceptively he may seem very strong, but the results aren't there. Yes, Mr. ConCon beat Zero's Diddy, but that MU was always a good one for Luigi IMO.

As for an exact "rank" for Luigi, I don't really have one, because once you get past spot #3 (, just bc she does so well vs Shiek and Rosa) there's this block of [(I think)] where these characters are a tier above the ones not mentioned, but they can't really be placed in any order from each other.

----------------------------------------------------

On a separate note of Link vs Luigi. I think Luigi's challenge in the MU is just getting in, once he does he can go to town, but it's absurdly hard to do so. However, there are windows to do so and you can shorthop over hero's bow and get fireballs in pretty easily. With Customs though Luigi doesn't get anything that helps him in the MU while Link gets a much better boomerang, the window to get in on Link is unbelievably small, so at that point I give the MU to Link, but barely (is there a +.5 rating?). Because at that point the only think Luigi does better than Link is combo, but the neutral, camp, and kill %'s all go to Link.

 

[MonkeyArms]

]What are your reasons for Link wrecking Luigi at high level?

I have experience vs notable Links, the MU is not free for Luigi at all but wrecking Luigi is also a strong statement.
Link has a respectable zoning game, a hit confirm f-smash (1st hit being safe unless perfect shielded and then gets to determine if he wants to continue), jab used to be great but now it's a poke that still does the job.
Link does well and can kill convincingly, Luigi once he has closed the distance has the frame data to keep Link quiet so I'm not sure what ratio you believe it is so I'm asking.

I tend to exagerate. I don't really think Luigi has no chance but realistically Link does beat Luigi with quite an advantage. His forward air is safe on shield, as well as forward tilt if spaced right. He can wall out Luigi and when Luigi gets in he can either jump, grab or jab. The most optimal option being a retreating short hop forward air. On another note his bombs can interupt Luigi's combos. Not a huge thing, but still should be considered. His grab combos work on Luigi as well as anybody, and Nair will rarely do anything for you in this MU. Link kills you with up smash considerably early too. Not to mention he can edge guard Luigi decently well. Its somewhere around 60:40 or 65:35 in Links favor, but even then usually the player who plays better usually wins.

As for an exact "rank" for Luigi, I don't really have one, because once you get past spot #3 (, just bc she does so well vs Shiek and Rosa) there's this block of [(I think)] where these characters are a tier above the ones not mentioned, but they can't really be placed in any order from each other.

Why the heck is Ryu there?

 

[MrTeddyBear]

Sorry, but I see a lot of people saying Villager beats Luigi, and I don't find that true at all. I've never had trouble with any Villager I faced and even when I watch tourneys I always see the Luigi doing well against him if he knows what he's doing. Can anyone care to explain why Villager is able to beat Luigi and maybe I can provide solutions to the problems you guys have with him.

 

[J.Miller]

I tend to exagerate. I don't really think Luigi has no chance but realistically Link does beat Luigi with quite an advantage. His forward air is safe on shield, as well as forward tilt if spaced right. He can wall out Luigi and when Luigi gets in he can either jump, grab or jab. The most optimal option being a retreating short hop forward air. On another note his bombs can interupt Luigi's combos. Not a huge thing, but still should be considered. His grab combos work on Luigi as well as anybody, and Nair will rarely do anything for you in this MU. Link kills you with up smash considerably early too. Not to mention he can edge guard Luigi decently well. Its somewhere around 60:40 or 65:35 in Links favor, but even then usually the player who plays better usually wins.
Why the heck is Ryu there?

F-air is safe on shield true, the jump however should not be going unanswered at all 29% onwards u-tilt for Luigi becomes a combo conversion opportunity. Link jumping in we have U-smash/u-tilt or just inching forward little by little. Spacial awareness means so much so if Link is gonna jump I see it as a chance to move forward.
In terms of bombs being combo breakers, all we have to do is compensate for when they will blow up it's not a roadblock although I understand what you are saying we can even use the explosions to our advantage as Link won't want to press buttons if he has a bomb in hand that is about to blow up he now forces himself to shield if he is attempting to be smart. If he get's hit we have enough hitstun to work with for a jab combo or even more dependent on Link's % at the time.
Yeah Link killing early and edgeguarding well are problematic, I agree but we have more than enough that make this MU a hassle for him as well.
It's as you said for yourself, either character can win which is why I can't agree with your ratio however your entitled to your opinion and I'm not attempting debate you on it just stating why I feel the mu is not really lopsided in anyone's favour.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Any character with a vast toolset of moves to wall Luigi out "beats" Luigi. But what makes Luigi good is the way his bad matchups play out.

I play Rosalina and Link and stick with defensive characters that have good matchups against Luigi. These characters have good matchups because they have a far superior neutral game. Luigi doesn't have good projectlie-answers (Link) and can't hold a candle to rosalina's range.

A Link or a Rosalina should wall out Luigi patiently and never really get hit unless they make a mistake so you can say the matchup is against Luigi. But at even the highest level mistakes are made. A single input error or failed read against Luigi is SUPER COSTLY. A good Luigi will combo you as hard as possible and then leave you in mixup situation after mixup situation.

Luigi is so good because if you're patient and find your opportunity his ability to get damage and build momentum is unprecedented in this game (maybe 2nd best example is c. falcon). That is why he can always hold a candle and always find a way to win in matchups where theoretically he has no right to hit his opponent.

 

[MonkeyArms]

F-air is safe on shield true, the jump however should not be going unanswered at all 29% onwards u-tilt for Luigi becomes a combo conversion opportunity. Link jumping in we have U-smash/u-tilt or just inching forward little by little. Spacial awareness means so much so if Link is gonna jump I see it as a chance to move forward.
In terms of bombs being combo breakers, all we have to do is compensate for when they will blow up it's not a roadblock although I understand what you are saying we can even use the explosions to our advantage as Link won't want to press buttons if he has a bomb in hand that is about to blow up he now forces himself to shield if he is attempting to be smart. If he get's hit we have enough hitstun to work with for a jab combo or even more dependent on Link's % at the time.
Yeah Link killing early and edgeguarding well are problematic, I agree but we have more than enough that make this MU a hassle for him as well.
It's as you said for yourself, either character can win which is why I can't agree with your ratio however your entitled to your opinion and I'm not attempting debate you on it just stating why I feel the mu is not really lopsided in anyone's favour.

You seem to mistake a ratio for being: "This character should win this percent of the time". It really just stands for how much easier or hard it is for one character to play the MU correctly to win the game.

 

[DRX_MDDDGT]

Why the heck is Ryu there?

Because I think there undiscovered potential for him that would place him somewhere near the top 10 characters on the game.

 

[FUEGO!]

You seem to mistake a ratio for being: "This character should win this percent of the time". It really just stands for how much easier or hard it is for one character to play the MU correctly to win the game.

You seem to mistake who you're talking to. This man wins majors with Luigi. You place 2nd in locals, he knows what a MU ratio is.

 

[MonkeyArms]

You seem to mistake who you're talking to. This man wins majors with Luigi. You place 2nd in locals, he knows what a MU ratio is.

You mean one major like forever ago (And even then, I consider calling it a major an overstatement.)? I know what a MU ratio is, and its not how likely one is going to win over the other. You don't see Luigi losing to Yoshi 65% of the time.
90% of the time, the person who plays better wins.

 

[J.Miller]

You mean one major like forever ago (And even then, I consider calling it a major an overstatement.)? I know what a MU ratio is, and its not how likely one is going to win over the other. You don't see Luigi losing to Yoshi 65% of the time.
90% of the time, the person who plays better wins.

Ok, for one thing B.E.A.S.T V is not the only tournament I've won... I don't expect you to know or care what I've been doing since January but this is not about my credentials right now. Especially when it's only apparently valid if you can go to America and prove a point. -_-

I will ask how this though, how many players in your mind define a major in your opinion?

In terms of MU ratios, I already feel they are abused in ways I cannot agree with.

I'm sorry but if a MU is truly 65:35, it means one character has the tools DOMINATE another in multiple ways without there being many answers back from the character on the losing side of the battle.

This is not the case with Luigi vs Link and as I've said before, 3:7 for Luigi VS Megaman also seems blown out of proportion.

Either way I'm not saying any of this to attempt to change people's mindsets, feel free to do and say as you please this goes for anyone in the thread.

 

[FUEGO!]

You mean one major like forever ago (And even then, I consider calling it a major an overstatement.)? I know what a MU ratio is, and its not how likely one is going to win over the other. You don't see Luigi losing to Yoshi 65% of the time.
90% of the time, the person who plays better wins.

well that's true regardless of MU ratio, isn't it? You've been trumped by a person playing a character you feel is one of the worst in the game, so if anyone knows this fact, it's you.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Ok, for one thing B.E.A.S.T V is not the only tournament I've won... I don't expect you to know or care what I've been doing since January but this is not about my credentials right now. Especially when it's only apparently valid if you can go to America and prove a point. -_-

I will ask how this though, how many players in your mind define a major in your opinion?

Look I'm not saying you're a bad player I'm saying people are looking at results from a tournament in January where Leffen was in Losers finals of smash 4 and are calling it a major...really? Its a regional. Europe is not nearly as good as Japan and America at Smash 4, and you're like the only player from Europe that even does decent out of the area. I'm tired of people talking like your the best Luigi because you won a single regional.

 

[J.Miller]

So it's fine for others to claim they are the best for the fact they beat someone who is known as the best?

It's funny because you have no idea what EU is even packing when it comes to smash 4, how many EU players have even come to America to even justify what BS you are talking. The simple reasons EU is not known for anything is the fact US/JP put out a lot more content which is fine and fair enough.

People will always have their opinion on who is better in many regards not even just Luigi or continent based, I really give no ****s on it but you already override what you are saying by pretty much having an opinion without even having known facts or having any real knowledge of dangerous EU players other than ones you do know of because they have either been to America or are already famous .

If I needed to stroke my own ego or hype up EU I would say so much more and base it off of logic, even if you were to call me a bad player it would not phase me as I don't know who you are.

I will say I agree that one major doesn't certify someone some as the outright best of anything but literally the amount of ignorance I'm reading is high when it comes to other things you have stated.

The one thing that is sad though, at the time Leffen was actually pretty decent. In terms of decision making and fundamental play he had a better idea than quite a number of people I played at Apex shortly after take that as you will. The only real reason that obviously wouldn't matter now is facts like he doesn't play the game and by now the Smash 4 has changed enough for it to not matter.

If there ever comes a times in which myself and multiple strong EU rep who aren't as known as MR.R (I'm excluding him because people already know how dangerous he is) come out to play, we can truly see what's up till then I'm not gonna waste time explaining why some of things you say are just literally unproven as of yet.

 

[FUEGO!]

Look I'm not saying you're a bad player I'm saying people are looking at results from a tournament in January where Leffen was in Losers finals of smash 4 and are calling it a major...really? Its a regional. Europe is not nearly as good as Japan and America at Smash 4, and you're like the only player from Europe that even does decent out of the area. I'm tired of people talking like your the best Luigi because you won a single regional.

OMG, you can't beat a local Ganondorf who just reads your stupid play, and now you're boasting that you're better than an entire country at smash or Luigi!?!?! Just stop.

 

[TriTails]

...Uh...

I'm detecting this converstation has become a bit hostile. Keep it civil everyone. Come on. We don't do this!

But TBH, J. Miller won against a mountain of pre-pre-patch Diddy-s who killed you a 90% with a single up air and pre-patch Sheik, which should even be harder than as of now. He even got 17th spot in Apex, and that's saying something.

 

[MonkeyArms]

OMG, you can't beat a local Ganondorf who just reads your stupid play, and now you're boasting that you're better than an entire country at smash or Luigi!?!?! Just stop.

I've beat him 2 sets, and went 2-3 in another one. I am not saying I'm better than the entire European scene at Smash 4. You know, you should learn to talk trash before you learn to counter it.

So it's fine for others to claim they are the best for the fact they beat someone who is known as the best?

It's funny because you have no idea what EU is even packing when it comes to smash 4, how many EU players have even come to America to even justify what BS you are talking. The simple reasons EU is not known for anything is the fact US/JP put out a lot more content which is fine and fair enough.

People will always have their opinion on who is better in many regards not even just Luigi or continent based, I really give no ****s on it but you already override what you are saying by pretty much having an opinion without even having known facts or having any real knowledge of dangerous EU players other than ones you do know of because they have either been to America or are already famous .

If I needed to stroke my own ego or hype up EU I would say so much more and base it off of logic, even if you were to call me a bad player it would not phase me as I don't know who you are.

I will say I agree that one major doesn't certify someone some as the outright best of anything but literally the amount of ignorance I'm reading is high when it comes to other things you have stated.

The one thing that is sad though, at the time Leffen was actually pretty decent. In terms of decision making and fundamental play he had a better idea than quite a number of people I played at Apex shortly after take that as you will. The only real reason that obviously wouldn't matter now is facts like he doesn't play the game and by now the Smash 4 has changed enough for it to not matter.

If there ever comes a times in which myself and multiple strong EU rep who aren't as known as MR.R (I'm excluding him because people already know how dangerous he is) come out to play, we can truly see what's up till then I'm not gonna waste time explaining why some of things you say are just literally unproven as of yet.

Unproven? You take my opinions as me trying to state them as fact? I don't really know what I'm talking about to be honest. I really have no idea where most the places in Europe are called. Isn't Europe a contintent? My apoligies, I probably meant England. Yet still I know nothing about that. I should just shut up, my teenage idiocracy is getting to me again.

Note to self: Don't try to logically talk at midnight.

 

[Yonder]

Keep it civil guys. Back to discussing if you think Luigi is good or not.

 

[chic]

I have a feeling (and am hoping) that luigi will receive a massive nerf next patch. he's almost not fun to play because of how good he is in this game. he feels cheap!

 

[MonkeyArms]

I have a feeling (and am hoping) that luigi will receive a massive nerf next patch. he's almost not fun to play because of how good he is in this game. he feels cheap!

You can't nerf Luigi. Luigi nerfs you.

 

[FUEGO!]

I have a feeling (and am hoping) that luigi will receive a massive nerf next patch. he's almost not fun to play because of how good he is in this game. he feels cheap!

You can't nerf Luigi. Luigi nerfs you.

absolutely, There is NO reason to touch Luigi. I GUESS the fireball nerf to make the damage change with distance was okay, but as long as they never mess with his properties, he's so good the way he is. People won't complain as much once they figure out the match-up.

 

[TriTails]

If we want to nerf Luigi massively, then we also need to take Mario's mobility away, Sheik's safetiness (Make her as unsafe as Falcon), Rosalina's Luma, Diddy's bananas, Ness' B-throw, Falcon's speed and power. While we're at it, we also need to nerf every high tiers and top tiers and keep repeating until everyone is weaker than Brawl Ganondorf.

Why everytime a character get something good for once, people are asking for nerfs!!?? His whole toolkit isn't as broken as Diddy's U-air or jank like that. He has bad MUs, he doesn't dominate charactsrs, WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT!?

...Sorry. I had one of those moments.

 

[DRX_MDDDGT]

I have a feeling (and am hoping) that luigi will receive a massive nerf next patch. he's almost not fun to play because of how good he is in this game. he feels cheap!

Luigi is overrated as to how good he is. I get that he's overwhelming when you get combos started up, I know I've taken people from 0-100% before, but honestly he has pretty damn big issues that leads to him having a lot of trouble and he has to put in a lot of work to get through his traction issues in certain MUs.

I agree with TriTails. If Luigi is a problem, why isn't shiek? Her frame data is even better than Luigi's, her recovery is leagues better, the only thing she has worse is her kill options and combos. But while her combo's don't do as much damage, she starts them up easier and receives no punishment for screwing up. Honestly, I think Mario is a tad better than Luigi anyway and certainly so with Customs.

 

[Moffe]

Look I'm not saying you're a bad player I'm saying people are looking at results from a tournament in January where Leffen was in Losers finals of smash 4 and are calling it a major...really? Its a regional. Europe is not nearly as good as Japan and America at Smash 4, and you're like the only player from Europe that even does decent out of the area. I'm tired of people talking like your the best Luigi because you won a single regional.

One from USA in top 4 in their biggest tournament. I dunno. The statistics doesn't match your statements.

 

[FUEGO!]

One from USA in top 4 in their biggest tournament. I dunno. The statistics doesn't match your statements.

We've moved on, talk about Luigi please.

 

[Moffe]

We've moved on, talk about Luigi please.

Chill breh. No need to tell me that. The post is still there. Freedom of speech aight?

he stated something not correct in my opinion that's why I'm sharing my thoughts about it.

Anyway we're moving on to talk about Luigi. ;D

 

[FUEGO!]

I'm in

Chill breh. No need to tell me that. The post is still there. Freedom of speech aight?

he stated something not correct in my opinion that's why I'm sharing my thoughts about it.

Anyway we're moving on to talk about Luigi. ;D

no way intruding on your rights, I am saying that your point has already been addressed so there was no need, but it's all gucci, baby.


IN OTHER NEWS: Not a single Luigi MAIN made it out of EVO pools...wtf. I mean, Larry Lurr has him as a secondary, but anybody who just picks him up for the Dthrow>Cyclone easy kills I don't really tend to count these days.

 

[Moffe]

I'm in

no way intruding on your rights, I am saying that your point has already been addressed so there was no need, but it's all gucci, baby.


IN OTHER NEWS: Not a single Luigi MAIN made it out of EVO pools...wtf. I mean, Larry Lurr has him as a secondary, but anybody who just picks him up for the Dthrow>Cyclone easy kills I don't really tend to count these days.

was Boss there? or any other top luigi players? if so Im curious on what MU or player that took them out.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Chill breh. No need to tell me that. The post is still there. Freedom of speech aight?

There are certain points where even if you are free to say something, it should not be said.

 

[TriTails]

Mr. CC got 25th out of like near 2k Smash Wii U people, and he went solo Luigi. That's saying something.

I didn't expect Luigi to be placed in Top 16, and yeah, it's true. Nonsense like 'Super Camp Bros.' was hyped there and we all know how Luigi fares against that. Even if he wins, he still struggle getting in.

There's only like, 2 Luigi mains at EVO. I doubt Boss or J. Miller went. I know Mr. CC did but... did Larry use Luigi? That must've been counted in the counter then.

To put it simply, there's only one Luigi main at EVO, and that's Mr. CC, which is complete 180 degree opposite to what happened at Apex (3rd most used character OMG), and he got 25th. That's a feat there.

Buutttt... maaaaaaybe @mrconcon can tell us more? What happened at EVO?

 

[MrTeddyBear]

Did False use Luigi?

 

[FEFIZ]

Luigi is an amazing char, but have so bad match ups vs Sheik and Rosaluma... For me he is the 5th.