Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Virgilijus]

Everyone:

Stop flaming, now.

If you cannot discuss this civilly or without insulting each others intelligence, you will be infracted and the thread will close.

Do not test me on this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Have you not gotten tired of mehanding you your *** EVERYTIME you talk about Sonic?
I have smashed you in AIB,SWF The Sonic Forums, other character forums.
Seriusly do you have this massive bias that makes you spew false information wherever you go concerning sonic?


WHICH ISNT CHARACTER SPECIFIC!
WHICH DOESNT ICNREASE RANGE!

This is basic mechanics.
You are not sliding during the attck.
You are moving THEN attacking.

Your range is not increasing. Get a clue, even when you stutterstep, your Fsmash is slow just like Sonics.
Marth isnt going to stand there and take it!

Sonic does it too, and he does it even better!


Which Sonic does.

You are NOT outdistancing ANYTHING!
Your terminology is COMPLETELY messed up.

Wheny ou say you outrange someone, you don't mean, "I can get you in my attack range" it means,
I can keep you in my attack range but I will not be in yours."
Which is what marth does. A correctly spaced Fair/Fsmash is not outranged by any of Mario's moves.
Unless you have some method where he does like Pit and slides forward DURING the Fsmash, your range is not increasing.
If Marth Fsmashes and you stutterstep and hit him , you arent increasing your range. you are just moving closer AFTER his attack has passed by.


As I specified earlier it does not.


Course not, he has MOVING hitbox.

marios Fsmash range is comparable to Sonics Fsmash range.
Did you know?

Sonics is only 2 frames slower!
Average human reaction is 12 frames!
High level players have an even smaller reaction time.

Its unreasonably slow.
Especially when you have Marios Dsmash coming out in 5 and pits fsmash coming out in 5 and Wolfs coming out in 8.

Shall i go on?
Let alone that mario has NO setup for his Fsmash.

As said earlier it is, so you cant use it as an offensive move or fdefensive cause you lack the range and speed of Lucasrio and MK's Fsmash.


Sonics can as well.
In fact, it can punish more because his stutterstep his THAT much better than mario's.
I am getting tired of arguing with you about Sonic when its obvious you have learned NOTHING within this year.

@everyone: ignore Mario101 he is a troll.

Wow...

Firstoff, Mario's stutter step F-smash has a LOT more range than Sonic's. Sonic's F-smash in EVERY way is worse than Mario's. It is slower, doesn't reach as far, does less damage, and kills at much higher percents.

Most moves that we don't call extremely laggy have around 20 frames of ending lag. Predict or react quickly to ANY move, and you can punish it hard with this attack since you outdistance almost everything with stutterstep/reverse F-smash. Marth's F-smash included.


And if you space well on someone's shield and they whiff a grab, this will almost ALWAYS hit them.

Range is the distance you can hit something from a standing position. If range were strictly the distance you could extend from your hurtbox, Sonic and Donkey Kong would have the worst range in this game.

You're contradicting yourself in your arguments. Seriously, wtf?

 

[Darknid]

19 Sonic (11 top8, 4 top4, 4 top2, 3 wins) - 97.5

33 Mario (6 top8, 1 top4) - 4.9


This has been consistent through the time brawl has been out.
It really is the only thing that can push Sonic being better than Mario because of how close they are matchup wise.


Its called the speedrun archive.
You should look it up.


Sorry who cares about FAN MADE GAMES!
Speed run archive ****s on you by the way.


The thing that kills it is yourself. =)
Let alone its opinion based


Marth outranges Mario soooo. Whata re you doing OOS that lets you do something to him?
Sonic can perform an OOS Dash attack and hit him.
Where as mario cannot do anything.
Play better Marths or stop lying.

WHAT!?

Hopefully I do this right.
You are a moron.
None of Mario's smashes out range Marth's.

Which they don't either.
In fact, on e akill move basis Sonic actually OUTRANGES Mario


jab jab, jab, FTILT FAIR, FAIR.
Your projectile game means nothing to Marth, you do not have a good projectile that can truly force him close.
Marth can stand there and just space you to death and Mario cannot do anything to it really.

Cape ****?
Really?
Against a character who has better range than you in EVERY single way. Do tell me how you will cape him unless he ^B's and stops in front of you.

Hell you could have at least said Fludd and I would say, hey thats possibly true.
Either way, you aren't gimping Marth because he falls rather slowly and is a lightweight and DI laughs at your edge guarding ability when facing Marth.


I LOLed.
considering DK has even MORE range than marth an also has a momentum canceling move.

The bolded will be ignroed.
Do name the moves that Mario has that go THROUGH the turtle.

No we don't.
Put on some glasses.
Marth isnt a bad matchup for anyone except a handful of characters (Falcon).


I take the marth forums word over your cause unlike you, they have a good ability at analyzing things.

Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about. It's not so easy to fair a projectile that moves on the ****ed ground. You have to have the right timing, which the Mario can easily mess up but hesitating and mixing in grounded fireballs.

Also, get a grip, dude. None of Marth's moves except shieldbreaker outrange Mario's F smash. Stop noobing this thread up.

Also, DK vs Mario was just recently discussed, and considered a 6-4 Mario advantage.

Also, cape is longer range than Marth's up B, or any move of Marth's for that matter. Wow, you're 0 for 3. haha

So wait..

Try holding A against my Sonic please.
Watch what happens. Its very entertaining.
hint: It does not end with Snake winning out.

Holding A beats spindash. That's all I'd use it for. If you do something else, I can just stop.

 

[BoTastic!]

I knew this would happen.

 

[vato_break]

Marios biggest flaw is that he doesn't have much range but, he has fast grounded moves,fast aerial moves that all auto cancel and can input 2 before landing on the ground,excellent gimping game,a pretty safe approach,good Oos moves ,moves that "string" into each other and has decent kill moves his only real flaw is he doesn't have much range.

Sonics biggest flaw is he doesn't have good priority,decent approach,or good kill power thats why mario is better imo and shadowlink i am stating facts about mario i'm not lying.

sonic has more flaws than mario

 

[Darknid]

Wow, I just wrote a huge summary of why these two in particular interest me... and then somehow I get kicked out, log back in, and then it's all lost... stupid school servers.

I'm even more infuriated right now, and I don't feel like doing it all again, so I'm just gonna keep it short, sweet, and to the point.

A2, congradulations, you're not the person I don't want to avoid to debate the most with now. However I still need to address you since you're here anyway.

First off, I'll just assume the franchise talk is all some kind of joke... and it is, because no matter how much evidence you bring to prove whatever, it doesn't really matter any in the long-run since that's not what the purpose of this thread is!

Second, it's easy to name matchups where the characters almost never see the day of light, you can say that Mario beats out Captain Falcon 99-1, it really won't matter to anybody when the main concern of most people are the top-high tiers. Out of all the characters you mentioned that filled that criteria are Marth and Kirby... and LOL at how 5 points would make any signifigant difference.

Dark, you resorting to insults/flames is reportable, frankly IDC if you develop a vendetta, at least A2 doesn't resort to this kind of stuff in his steadfast debate. You on the other hand are outright silly for even seriously talking about the franchise this way and having to call us out.

You're also funny, you think like A2 that Mario makes anymore of a stand-alone character than Sonic when they both have similar matchup ratios with the exception of D3. Go ahead, feel comfortable that you have 5 points of influence in certain MUs, if I said it once I'll say it again:

It makes

next to

no difference

in the long run.

Especially not when I could waste my time scribbling through our MU thread and pull the same s*** out of my a** card. I have better things to do than having to look for even the most miniscule difference that won't change any GD thing.

Also what kind of camping game does Mario have when anybody not named MK with his transcedent sword can just jab out Fireballs and/or shield them? It may still be there granted, but when on the defensive I doubt he's a better character in said field than say Bowser... who I think Nintendo intentionally made a fortress out of, even his Up-B is named after it.

Well first off, Bowser is the best defensive character in the game. Saying Mario is not as good on D as Bowser is like saying a basketball player isn't as good as MJ. It's a useless statement. Mario has a great camping game. Every character can shield every projectile. This proves nothing. His fireball is still one of the best obstacles in the game, he will have two fireballs coating the ground at once, and you can't **** around with jabs all day, he will change it up and FLUDD you to push you offstage or pop you with a bair.

In terms of matchups, I've <<<exclusively>>> been talking about high/top tiers. Snake, Marth, Wario, DK, Diddy, ROB, Olimar, Falco, Lucario..None of these are really bad matchups for Mario, and they're all **** near even. There's also the fact that you can't really trust the MU threads in the sonic boards because sonic mains think their character is a lot better than he appears to be, which may be true but as of right now I've no evidence to believe he does well against D3.

 

[:mad:]

I knew this would happen.

As did I. The second Kinzer walked in, I foresaw trouble.

 

[aeghrur]

I've never played a good Sonic, so I underestimate you guys as it is. I only play the ones that dash attack and Fsmash the entire game.

-warioavatar-

Nice, I like wario hobbes, lol.
That's just cool.
And dash attack is actually a good move for punishing lag.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about. It's not so easy to fair a projectile that moves on the ****ed ground.

The difficulty of the task has nothing to do wih i considering that the difficulty is not much.
You must also take into account the speed that marth moves through the air as well as the speed at which mario can send out those fireballs. So even if marth cannot hit them while they are on the ground, he is very capable at avoiding them.
Or he cans imply jab or Dtilt them.

You have to have the right timing, which the Mario can easily mess up but hesitating and mixing in grounded fireballs.

Except Marth has option select in such a situation and can deal with such behavior in the same way.
That is why Marth is so annoying to face, he can easily kill your projectile game by simply standing there and using the same move over and over. Its safe andkeeps you frmo truly moving in on him.

Also, get a grip, dude. None of Marth's moves except shieldbreaker outrange Mario's F smash. Stop noobing this thread up.

Stutterstepping does not icnrease your range.
it is the exact same as saying that moving forward then Fsmashing increases the range of the Fsmash. It does not.

On a move per move basis, Marth outranges Marth.Its not evne har dto test it.
Move Mario forward until his Fsmash just barely touches Marth.
Have Marth perform an Fsmash.

So at the range that you are swining your Fsmash, Marth can hit you while remaining safe from your range.
This is hardcore fact that you are trying to argue against. Why?

Also, DK vs Mario was just recently discussed, and considered a 6-4 Mario advantage.

Why due to cape ****?

Also, cape is longer range than Marth's up B, or any move of Marth's for that matter. Wow, you're 0 for 3. haha

vids or pics?
Last I saw, you dont see Mario whipping out the cape when it falls to a spacing battle.
So obviously someone here is incorrect.

Oh I like how you lied about Sonic boards making the character being better than it appears.
Even though the boar dis known for being very thorough in its matchup discussion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shadowlink...

Go to your copy of Brawl. Place Marth on one side. Place Mario on the other.

F-smash with Marth and walk towards Mario until you are barely missing him.

Have Mario face away from Marth, F-smash, and watch Marth go aflame.

It's not the same as walking forward and F-smashing. Simply not.

Now, if you want to get fancy and do a Dashdance canceled stutter step F-smash, then we are talking about something with like twice the range of Marth's F-smash.

Marios biggest flaw is that he doesn't have much range but, he has fast grounded moves,fast aerial moves that all auto cancel and can input 2 before landing on the ground,excellent gimping game,a pretty safe approach,good Oos moves ,moves that "string" into each other and has decent kill moves his only real flaw is he doesn't have much range.

Sonics biggest flaw is he doesn't have good priority,decent approach,or good kill power thats why mario is better imo and shadowlink i am stating facts about mario i'm not lying.

sonic has more flaws than mario

And what he said. <3

 

[aeghrur]

Shadowlink...

Go to your copy of Brawl. Place Marth on one side. Place Mario on the other.

F-smash with Marth and walk towards Mario until you are barely missing him.

Have Mario face away from Marth, F-smash, and watch Marth go aflame.

It's not the same as walking forward and F-smashing. Simply not.

Now, if you want to get fancy and do a Dashdance canceled stutter step F-smash, then we are talking about something with like twice the range of Marth's F-smash.

And what he said. <3

- Stutter Stepping (All characters) and Back Stepping (Ganondorf, Sonic, Captain Falcon, Mario)
How to Perform Stutter Step: Initiate an Initial Dash in the direction you want to F-smash, then (1) VERY QUICKLY press the opposite direction you are travelling on the joystick and (2) do an F-smash in the direction you were originally facing.
Effect: This makes the character slide forward slightly before performing his F-smash, thereby extending it. To do a shorter-range version, leave out the initial dash at the beginning. More characters can do this, but the four listed are the ones for which this is most useful.

The Back Step is merely a trait of the four listed character's f-smashes when they do it in the opposite direction. By literally just hitting the C-stick (assuming yours is set to smash) in the other direction, they will take a small 'step' in that direction when they do it, no movement input necessary.

Tenki also offers an explanation of the Stutter Step and Back Step.

Originally Posted by Tenki
Gimpy called the Mario/Sonic/Ganondorf/Falcon one a Pivot F-smash. Since that's really all it is. It's not really advanced, but it does seem to be a character-specific trait more than a 'tech'.

That description doesn't exactly capture the fact that theirs force a 'slide' though. This one jerks your character in the direction the smash is facing.

-----------------
Then there's the "stutter step" as OS calls it (Which was listed down as a 'universal alternative' to perform it) where you cancel your initial dash with an F-smash:
"Smash input", with a semi-delayed A.
[Tap+Hold Forward]--[A]
Effect: Jerks your character forward before you start charging a smash.

If you take the definition/performance of "stutter step" as the one I just described, then "Reverse stutter step" would make more sense being grouped together with it instead of a pivot F-smash, in name and performance:
"Dashdance input (back first)", but hitting A to cancel the forward dash.
[Tap Back]--([Tap Forward]+[A])
Effect: Jerks your character backwards before charging a smash (facing forward)

Then there's the "extended" stutter step, which works especially well with the 4 'pivot' characters, because they get an extra boost:
"Dashdance input (forward first)" > Forward smash.
[Tap Forward]--([Tap Back]+[C-stick Forward])
Effect: Jerks your character forward before performing a pivot F-smash (facing "forward", the direction you first started running).

Overall changes:
These 3 make the same use of the 'stutter step' input/mechanic as OS describes it, which is cancelling an initial dash with a smash input. So I guess they could all be considered a move. And as for the "character-specific stutter step", I guess it could be listed as a 'bonus' stutterstep-like effect for those characters' pivot F-smashes.

Okay, this basically means when you stutter step, your character moves forward, both hitbox and hurtbox. It does not increase the range at all. You're simply suddenly moving forward and smashing causing you to think it has increased range, but not really. SL was right, it's just like moving forward then F-smashing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Shadowlink...

Go to your copy of Brawl. Place Marth on one side. Place Mario on the other.

F-smash with Marth and walk towards Mario until you are barely missing him.

Have Mario face away from Marth, F-smash, and watch Marth go aflame.

It's not the same as walking forward and F-smashing. Simply not.

A2 please read my post.
The mechanics of stutterstepping do not increase the range of an attack.
Stutter stepping is the EXACT same as taking a step forward then Fsmash.

Why?
The behavior of the stutterstep technique relies on the following.
Character takes a sway back position (mario, Sonic, Falcon, Ganondorf).

When the character isdoes a reverse Fsmash, the character moves forward one step, then perform his attack.

This does not change the range of the attack.
The moves range is still the same.

When you move forar duntil marth barely misses and then have Marth perform a stutterstep.
It is the exact same as moving forward into marths range, then Fsmashing him.

The Fsmash range is not being increased.

THis is basic mechanics.

Marios attack range is not being increased, he is simply being moved forward.
Disagree?
You can make a poll in tactical discussion and ask the question.
I fact, this same discussion went on when stutterstepping was initially discovered.

People mistook it for increasing range when it isnt increasing range.
It is merely displacing the character.

Pits angelic step DOES increase his Fsmash range. Angelic stepping slides him forward during the Fsmash, so his Fsmash is affecting a great area.

Stutterstepping does not do this.

It is the same This has been researched and tested and proven.
Stop arguing false information.

Either way Soic can do the same stutterstep technique as mario, but he can do it toa MUCH greater degree.

Edit: Oh look aeghrur found the post I was gonna get. =)

 

[A2ZOMG]

No, it's exactly the same as increasing range. The point of increasing range is to hit a spot that is further away from you in the exact same amount of time and to minimize the zone at which your opponent can remain safe from you.

Since most standard attacks have ~20 frames of ending lag, and since Mario's F-smash is frame 15, this means he can land his F-smash on a LOT of attacks before his opponent can shield.

You can stop being silly and actually observe that this is incredibly useful and unique.

 

[aeghrur]

A2ZOMG, I didn't know you were the one who defined range, because last I checked, the definition of range was basically

An attack's range is how far its hitbox reaches beyond the character's hurtbox

I can understand if you're Yossarian, but please, don't make up your own definitions here on the spot to help you defend your point.

 

[Browny]

Which attacks have 20 frames of ending lag lmao... remember shield drop lag is 7.

im serious i cant think of anything. this means attacks that are actually used (like NOT ikes fsmash, falco landing fair) against top tier chars like mk, snake, falco, rob, lucario... you're not going to be able to fsmash them oos unless they made a stupid mistake.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196148

My thread on sonics frame data. the only attacks with 20 frames of punishable lag are a whiffed dash grab, utilt, dsmash and landing laggy fair/dair. what a surprise, these attacks are very rarely used! when sonic is in KO range, you will NOT see these attacks come out. its easily possible to stay below 20 frames of end lag lol


also stutter step applies to sonic too, its not unique to mario

 

[vato_break]

i like how everyone ignored what i said

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, it's exactly the same as increasing range.

Range is the amount of length of a hurtbox, or how far a hitbox will travel.

Marths sword and Links Bow respectively

So when you mean that the move inreases in range, you mean that the range of a non projectile increases (marths sword suddenly growing) or the projectile moves farther.

stuff

This is called moving.
If I move forwar dot jab you, how does that increase the range of my jab?

Since most standard attacks have ~20 frames of ending lag, and since Mario's F-smash is frame 15, this means he can land his F-smash on a LOT of attacks before his opponent can shield.

Sonic can do the same with his 17 frames. So there is VERY little difference.
Let alone that your range is not being increased.

You can stop being silly and actually observe that this is incredibly useful and unique.

you can stop trolling because this is not unique.
unique=one of a kind.
Characters that can stutterstep.
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Mario
insert more characters here.

So its neither unique but it is useful. Unfortunately Sonics is more useful because his stutterstep places him much closer.

 

[:mad:]

If I were to stand facing a Sonic and use Fsmash, and it was barely missing him, all you'd need to do is shift Mario's back to the side Sonic's facing. The range doesn't increase, it just reaches farther forward than a regular Fsmash.

 

[BoTastic!]

against top tier chars like mk, snake, falco, rob, lucario... you're not going to be able to fsmash them oos unless they made a stupid mistake.\

Best Logic ever.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If I were to stand facing a Sonic and use Fsmash, and it was barely missing him, all you'd need to do is shift Mario's back to the side Sonic's facing. The range doesn't increase, it just reaches farther forward than a regular Fsmash.

You mea it moves him closer.
Last part implies the Fsmashes rang growing. You should put Duke in your siggy.

 

[aeghrur]

Best Logic ever.

I love the vid in your sig.
And thank god Straked is here, :D

 

[:mad:]

Yeah. It's just Mario moving closer. Last part implied that he simply does a regular Fsmash, but it's like him taking a step or two forward.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@aeghrur:
That is the definition of priority or disjointed range. Or in some cases, you can call that definition "reach".

Range is how far away you can reach from your standing position. If your given definition was in fact the absolute definition of range, DK would have HORRIBLE HORRIBLE range.

Also...Wario doesn't have much reach, but quite on the contrary, his aerials have good range due to his mobility.

Sonic's Dash Attack, spindash, and Homing Attack all have terrible reach, but GREAT range.

@djbrowny.

You don't have to worry about shielddrop lag if you can observe Snake's F-tilt from a distance and start up F-smash after the hitbox is over. His F-tilt has around say 20 frames of ending lag. Keep in mind, 20 frames is NOT excessively laggy. It IS however indeed punishable.

Mario's stutterstep is unique in being the most pronounced in terms of raw range. Outdistancing DK's F-smash in less time is VERY useful. And you go tell me why DKs are able to land random F-smashes. =/

 

[BoTastic!]

Yeah. It's just Mario moving closer. Last part implied that he simply does a regular Fsmash, but it's like him taking a step or two forward.

yea it moves him closer but..

it changes his point location and he can punish a whiffed Fsmash from Marth easily. That's really the point he's trying to make.

 

[aeghrur]

@aeghrur:
That is the definition of priority or disjointed range. Or in some cases, you can call that definition "reach".

You're forcing me to use your definitions...

Range is how far away you can reach from your standing position. If your given definition was in fact the absolute definition of range, DK would have HORRIBLE HORRIBLE range.

? Then stutterstep doesn't count as range because you MOVE during stutterstepping, by your definition. You don't reach from your standing position, you move to a NEW standing position and THEN attack, causing you to believe it has increased range, but really not.

Also...Wario doesn't have much reach, but quite on the contrary, his aerials have good range due to his mobility.

Wario... doesn't have good range or priority. Aerially speaking, range and priority are synonymous and wario doesn't have good priority in the air, thus he doesn't have good range. He can weave well, and his aerials have quick start up, but he has bad priority in the air. Iirc, sonic can outrange him.

Sonic's Dash Attack, spindash, and Homing Attack all have terrible reach, but GREAT range.

>_< Again, using your definition of range and reach.
For most of us, range=your "reach" and your "range" is, idk, lol.

Edit: Above, okay, but that still doesn't change the fact that the RANGE, like the definition I put up which was provided from an alternate source aside from my mind, does not change.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Wario's aireals actually have rediculous priority. How can Sonic possibly outrange Wario in the air? That can't be true.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@aeghrur:
That is the definition of priority or disjointed range. Or in some cases, you can call that definition "reach".

NOOOOOOOO!O
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Seriously.

Priority=interaction between hurtboxes.
Disjointed=move not with a hitbox.

Disjointed=Marths sword
non disjointed=Sonics jab.

Range=size of the hurtbox.
it being disjointed or not is IRRELEVANT to the actual range of the move.

Range is how far away you can reach from your standing position.

No. You are switching the two definitions.

If your given definition was in fact the absolute definition of range, DK would have HORRIBLE HORRIBLE range.

WRONG!
This is RANGE.

Also...Wario doesn't have much reach, but quite on the contrary, his aerials have good range due to his mobility.

No. Just no.
Stop making up definitions.

Sonic's Dash Attack, spindash, and Homing Attack all have terrible reach, but GREAT range.

No switch the two and you will have it right.

You don't have to worry about shielddrop lag if you can observe Snake's F-tilt from a distance and start up F-smash after the hitbox is over. His F-tilt has around say 20 frames of ending lag. Keep in mind, 20 frames is NOT excessively laggy. It IS however indeed punishable.

You can punish ANYTHING if your opponent mis-spaces a move.

Mario's stutterstep is unique in being the most pronounced in terms of raw range.

Sonic says hi.

Outdistancing DK's F-smash in less time is VERY useful.

you arent outranging it.

And you go tell me why DKs are able to land random F-smashes. =/

They have MASSIVE range.

Wario's aireals actually have rediculous priority.

How can he possibly outrange Wario in the air?

no they don't.
Dair and Uair have great priority. His other aerials, no.

 

[aeghrur]

Wario's aireals actually have rediculous priority. How can Sonic possibly outrange Wario in the air? That can't be true.

No, he doesn't. He actually has REALLY FAST aerials and in combination with his air speed, he has an amazing aerial game. However, they're not really too disjointed. He has pretty bad range in the air, horizontally speaking.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228081

 

[A2ZOMG]

? Then stutterstep doesn't count as range because you MOVE during stutterstepping, by your definition. You don't reach from your standing position, you move to a NEW standing position and THEN attack, causing you to believe it has increased range, but really not.

No, you don't move. Technically, you actually warp, and since this change in position doesn't really take any real amount of time, it technically came from the original standing position where I C-sticked when facing backwards.

There is no time wasted from doing a reverse F-smash as opposed to a regular F-smash (except for 1 frame to change the direction you are facing).

This makes all the difference in punishing attacks with good range. If I had to walk forward and THEN F-smash against DK's F-smash, I'd probably get powershielded in that time. I don't waste any time changing my original position by turning around and F-smashing.

There are only two things that matter to punish:
1. Starting position (to avoid attacks)
2. Range (to reach your opponent before they block)

Wolf's F-smash is an extremely good punish tool due to its range for example.

Wario... doesn't have good range or priority. Aerially speaking, range and priority are synonymous and wario doesn't have good priority in the air, thus he doesn't have good range. He can weave well, and his aerials have quick start up, but he has bad priority in the air. Iirc, sonic can outrange him.

>_< Again, using your definition of range and reach.
For most of us, range=your "reach" and your "range" is, idk, lol.

As I was saying, the more range you have, the further away you can punish your opponent from.

Edit: Above, okay, but that still doesn't change the fact that the RANGE, like the definition I put up which was provided from an alternate source aside from my mind, does not change.

The fact Mario has this means that virtually nobody at a KO percent is safe from Mario. Say I'm playing against a Marth who actually realizes that my F-smash outranges his. This means that simply trying to outspace Mario's other attacks can and probably will result in him KOed if I manage to predict ONE attack. It means that I've just limited his options when I'm outside his range.

Emblem Lord also defines range in a similar way as I do in some matchup discussion topic. He points out that Marth on most attacks outranges Link slightly due to leaning forward, except Link has a longer ranged F-smash due to taking a huge step forward when F-smashing.

 

[Browny]

You don't have to worry about shielddrop lag if you can observe Snake's F-tilt from a distance and start up F-smash after the hitbox is over. His F-tilt has around say 20 frames of ending lag. Keep in mind, 20 frames is NOT excessively laggy. It IS however indeed punishable.

We are assuming players dont go around throwing random ftilts while completely out of range here.

snake has the ability, just as mario does, to stay out of everyones range and then punish accordingly. except of course his options are 4-5 times faster.

 

[ShadowLink84]

A2zomg you've just gotten into competitive play because what you are saying is completely wrong in terms of terminology.

 

[Darknid]

The difficulty of the task has nothing to do wih i considering that the difficulty is not much.
You must also take into account the speed that marth moves through the air as well as the speed at which mario can send out those fireballs. So even if marth cannot hit them while they are on the ground, he is very capable at avoiding them.
Or he cans imply jab or Dtilt them.
Except Marth has option select in such a situation and can deal with such behavior in the same way.
That is why Marth is so annoying to face, he can easily kill your projectile game by simply standing there and using the same move over and over. Its safe andkeeps you frmo truly moving in on him.

..But that's the thing. You're forcing him to avoid fireballs as he deals with you. It's hard to juggle these two tasks, especially if Mario is hounding you with FLUDD and extending your hitlag so he can close in quickly. The ability to hit fireballs to stop them does not render fireballs useless or even hinder their use. The fireball is not to be used as a primary source of damage racking, but as an obstacle. Besides, can you draw me up a plan on how Sonic deals with Marth anyway? If he is jabbing your fireball, you can stutter step an F smash to pop him.

Stutterstepping does not icnrease your range.
it is the exact same as saying that moving forward then Fsmashing increases the range of the Fsmash. It does not.

On a move per move basis, Marth outranges Marth.Its not evne har dto test it.
Move Mario forward until his Fsmash just barely touches Marth.
Have Marth perform an Fsmash.

So at the range that you are swining your Fsmash, Marth can hit you while remaining safe from your range.
This is hardcore fact that you are trying to argue against. Why?

Stutter stepping adds what..1 frame, and it adds a lot of distance. You use F smash for punishing or following up on a fireball or FIHL. Whether it moves you forward or not, it still pops him at a safe range. Play the ****ing game before you talk about something.

Why due to cape ****?


vids or pics?
Last I saw, you dont see Mario whipping out the cape when it falls to a spacing battle.
So obviously someone here is incorrect.

Oh I like how you lied about Sonic boards making the character being better than it appears.
Even though the boar dis known for being very thorough in its matchup discussion.

Cape ****, gimping game, camping game, combos and F smash.

The board is known for being stuffed with *******es who think Sonic is 3rd on the tier list. You mentioned that Marth's up B has too much range for Mario to mess with..but cape outranges it. <play the game> or <watch marios play> before you talk. You've consistently shown that you've no idea what you're talking about and rely on 100% theory crafting about **** you don't know. At least Kinzer doesn't take himself seriously. Unless you can tell me how Sonic does better than Mario against Snake, ROB, D3, DK(as a DK, I know the Sonic matchup is no worse than 5-5, most DKs consider it a 6-4 DK), ROB, MK, Diddy, Wario, Marth, GnW and Falco, idk about Sonic's 'superior matchups' except maybe D3

 

[ShadowLink84]

..But that's the thing. You're forcing him to avoid fireballs as he deals with you. It's hard to juggle these two tasks, especially if Mario is hounding you with FLUDD and extending your hitlag so he can close in quickly. The ability to hit fireballs to stop them does not render fireballs useless or even hinder their use. The fireball is not to be used as a primary source of damage racking, but as an obstacle. Besides, can you draw me up a plan on how Sonic deals with Marth anyway? If he is jabbing your fireball, you can stutter step an F smash to pop him.

how is FLUDD extending your hitlag at the same time that the fireballs are out?
unless mario acn magically send fireballs and jets of fludd without being incredibly usnafe, I do not see it happen.

Considerig he again, ansers it all the same way.
jab.
You put him in hitlag, it extends the hitbox so it will block any fireballs that come into contact.
Fireballs are not a great camping tool in the face of marth.

Stutter stepping adds what..1 frame, and it adds a lot of distance.

your range does not change. It moves your character not the distance the attack will travel.
By that logic, e running up to jab you is increasing its range because its the same thing. Did you not see aeghrurs post?

You use F smash for punishing

Sonic can do the same.

or following up on a fireball

not enough hitstun.

or FIHL.

What is FIHL?

Whether it moves you forward or not, it still pops him at a safe range. [/quotes]
ITS NOT SAFE RANGE. You are STILL within HIS range.

Safe means he cannot harm you and you can harm him. Which you cannot.
If you stutterstep at the same time as he Fsmashes. You lose due to speed.
If you stutterstep so the moevs wl met, you clang.
You STILL end up in his range.
You are basically stepping into it. Why do you ignore this fact.

Play the ****ing game before you talk about something.

Take your own advice before spouting it to others.

The board is known for being stuffed with *******es who think Sonic is 3rd on the tier list.

PROOF NOW OR LEAVE.
SHOW POSTS WHERE AN INTELLIGENT SONIC MAIN HAS EVER MADE THIS CLAIM. NOW

Otherwise your posts will just be ignored.

You mentioned that Marth's up B has too much range for Mario to mess with..but cape outranges it.<play the game> or <watch marios play> before you talk.

The game disagrees.
Stop using your inductive reasoning and trying to use it to disregard fact.
Post another thing that is contrary to what the game says and I'll just ignore your posts.
Since frankly, your lack of knowledge concerning the game is disgusting.
Which is why you use the new term "boxing" in general discussion.

 

[Darknid]

how is FLUDD extending your hitlag at the same time that the fireballs are out?
unless mario acn magically send fireballs and jets of fludd without being incredibly usnafe, I do not see it happen.

You don't see it happen because you've apparently 0 Mario experience.

Considerig he again, ansers it all the same way.
jab.
You put him in hitlag, it extends the hitbox so it will block any fireballs that come into contact.
Fireballs are not a great camping tool in the face of marth.

..They aren't going to keep him away, and they aren't meant to. They are meant to mess with his approach, because his spacing game is skewed when he has obstacles to deal with.

your range does not change. It moves your character not the distance the attack will travel.
By that logic, e running up to jab you is increasing its range because its the same thing. Did you not see aeghrurs post?

Sonic can do the same.

not enough hitstun.

What is FIHL?

Whether it moves you or not, it is still a good move for what it is used for, which is punishing and following up. Look at Wolf's F smash. It is a leaner, but it has great range. Now, imagine that, but 10x safer.

Also, FIHL is fludd induced hitlag. Pretty sure this works on Marth's tippers. FLUDD one of Marth's attacks, this causes it to have hitlag, and Mario regains control before the hitlag ends, giving him time to close the gap or even to punish with F smash.

ITS NOT SAFE RANGE. You are STILL within HIS range.

Safe means he cannot harm you and you can harm him. Which you cannot.
If you stutterstep at the same time as he Fsmashes. You lose due to speed.
If you stutterstep so the moevs wl met, you clang.
You STILL end up in his range.
You are basically stepping into it. Why do you ignore this fact.

What's he gonna do? He can't PS, he has a fireball to deal with. If he shields, you won't be punished. If he dodges before dealing with the fireball, he will be hit by it, and after, you will not be punished. If he rolls, you will not be punished. Chances are you will be using this the moment after he negates a fireball with an attack, meaning it is used as punishment in the same way you'd punish Ness/Lucas down B or GnW bucket, only the timing is tighter. I suppose he could use counter, though.

Take your own advice before spouting it to others.


PROOF NOW OR LEAVE.
SHOW POSTS WHERE AN INTELLIGENT SONIC MAIN HAS EVER MADE THIS CLAIM. NOW

Otherwise your posts will just be ignored.

I never said that a Sonic main said this, but that its their reputation.

The game disagrees.
Stop using your inductive reasoning and trying to use it to disregard fact.
Post another thing that is contrary to what the game says and I'll just ignore your posts.
Since frankly, your lack of knowledge concerning the game is disgusting.
Which is why you use the new term "boxing" in general discussion.

What's wrong with the term boxing? How else would you describe a character's effectiveness in that sort of combat? How else would you describe Falco's closed quarters gameplay? The fact that you consider a stutter stepped Mario F smash laughable in the face of Marth's attacks that have less range is bad enough, but you didn't even know what FIHL was, and listed DK as a character who, because he has a lot more range than marth, beats Mario when Mario has a 6-4 on him. Now, are we going to start talking matchups or what?

 

[Matador]

Darknid, I didn't even know you played Mario. You've never posted on the Mario boards.

 

[bobson]

Sonic actually seems very similar to Mario in that they're both very rarely left without any options. Sure, they might not be good options, but Mario always has his FLUDD to push you away and his fireballs to toss at you and Sonic always has his speed to punish you and his crazy spinshot shenanigans to... do stuff to you with.

I'm the kind of spiteful ******* who wants Sonic to be a terrible character just because so many people are trying to make him good, but I can't deny that you guys are consistently proving his potential. I'd say Mario and Sonic are both around the same level, with Sonic ever-so-slightly below him. But that's because I main Mario.

 

[Matador]

On high tiers, and this is my opinion without silly matchup discussion...

vs MK, Mario gets wrecked 65:35.

vs Snake, Mario's beaten 60:40

vs D3, Mario gets destroyed 70:30 or more

vs G&W Mario gets wrecked 65:35

vs ROB, Mario does well. 50:50 or slight adv

vs Lucario, Mario does well 50:50 or slight disadvantage

vs Falco, Mario does well, around 50:50 or slight disadvantage

vs DK, Mario does well, 50:50

vs Diddy, Mario does well, 50:50 or close to it in either direction

vs Olimar, Mario does well, 50:50 or slight disadvantage

vs Wario, Mario loses, 60:40 or maybe 65:35 imo

vs Pika, Mario does well, 50:50

The only characters that potentially give him much trouble after that are ICs, ZSS, TL and MAYBE Lucas. Overall, he does okay vs high tier, but not exceptionally well. I'm honestly not sure how Sonic does, but I suppose you could work off this.

Let me know if u disagree Mario mains.

 

[:mad:]

Nah, that list is pretty accurate. Vs. Falco, though, I'd give it a 55:45 advatage to Mario, though.

 

[BoTastic!]

Vs Rob. Not accurate. 60:40 Mario. get it through your heads Marios. >:O

 

[darkNES386]

It's called stutter stepping... and Sonic can "increase" his fsmash range too. Incase no one noticed, mario and sonic have like the same fsmash motion. Sonic just doesn't have the ridiculous sweet spot that mario has.