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Is there a recovery tier list?

INSANE CARZY GUY

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ok xbombr, please tell me the gameplan for dealing with someone on the edge as sheik when recovering? chacnes are if you are close they will bair you so then you die. but if your a fair distance chances are you have to land on the stage and they will garb to follow-up. Also keep in mind chances are you had at min. 50%

No when you make a list about who is best you sit down and compare everything about 2 people deceide who is better more on.
 

xbombr

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ok xbombr, please tell me the gameplan for dealing with someone on the edge as sheik when recovering? chacnes are if you are close they will bair you so then you die. but if your a fair distance chances are you have to land on the stage and they will garb to follow-up. Also keep in mind chances are you had at min. 50%

No when you make a list about who is best you sit down and compare everything about 2 people deceide who is better more on.
Sheik's alternated between my secondary and main for about a year now and I can't say I've ever had anyone kill me with a BAir offstage unless I was doing something stupid and got knocked out of my double jump NOT my vanish. Most people won't even bother BAir'ing sheik since she's invincible for a good portion of her recovery and leaving the ledge will give it to her for free unless you've got great timing and Sheik's doing something wrong.

You can mindgame with your recovery so you don't go to the stage every time. Recover straight above the ledge so that when they go onto the stage to punish you, you fall to the ledge instead of going on stage. It works as a mix up. Luckily for Sheik, she doesn't lag so much that if they want to punish you with something other than a ledgehopped aerial, then they'll have to predict which option you're going to take. Unless it's a ledgehopped knee or rest or something of similar strength, then eating a ledgehopped aerial at 50% isn't a big deal.

Sheik's recovery also covers a pretty great distance that shouldn't be neglected.

edit: Sometimes if people noob it up and camp the ledge really early and you're coming down from above or still have your double jump, then you can FAir them off and it'll kill them 90% of the time they get hit by it. This could also deter people from grabbing the ledge if you show them that you're willing to do it, even if it doesn't work when you try it. Point is that it's not like Falcon's recovery where you can just sit on the ledge at any point and not ever have to worry about getting hit.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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for bair I was saying if sheik tryed to just jump back on or something, not during up-B.

So sheik has to relie on them messing up.

also
lag when landing people people have 2 numbers depending on how they land
from SDM
Gannon-30
pichu-11/1
sheik-30
Pikachu-14/4
marth-34
falcon-30
bowser-10
DK-7
Dr. Mario-30
Mario-30
falco/fox- upb-6/3 side-B-20/3
G&W-40/4
ice climbers-25-upb side-b-4
Kirby-34(includes ground attack)
link-24
luigi-side-b 40
m2-30 or 4
ness-4
peach-4 30(with)
roy-30
samus-24
LY-24
zedla- 30 4
 

xbombr

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for bair I was saying if sheik tryed to just jump back on or something, not during up-B.

So sheik has to relie on them messing up.
EVERYONE has to rely on other people messing up edgegaurds and covering the wrong options besides like Jigglypuff (and maybe a couple others) because she has nearly infinite recovery. Having to rely on missed edgegaurds doesn't make your recovery bottom tier. Sheik doesn't even really have to rely on others messing up anyway. Her recovery is fairly quick and it covers a pretty good distance. It's not like she's always going to die if she's offstage or something.

It's not necessarily that she, as well as other characters, have to rely on people messing up edgegaurds to recover, but have to rely on them messing up to regain stage control.

If Sheik is in a position that she's susceptible to bair when she just jumps back on then so is every other character in the cast.

Basically what needs to be defined is where recovery itself ends. Is it when you get back on stage? Or when you regain enough control of the stage to start taking an offensive stance or make a strong defense?

Some characters are inherently bad at the last one even when they aren't recovering and Sheik is far from bottom tier if you define recovery as the first one.
 

otg

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for bair I was saying if sheik tryed to just jump back on or something, not during up-B.

So sheik has to relie on them messing up.

also
lag when landing people people have 2 numbers depending on how they land
from SDM
Gannon-30
pichu-11/1
sheik-30
Pikachu-14/4
marth-34
falcon-30
bowser-10
DK-7
Dr. Mario-30
Mario-30
falco/fox- upb-6/3 side-B-20/3
G&W-40/4
ice climbers-25-upb side-b-4
Kirby-34(includes ground attack)
link-24
luigi-side-b 40
m2-30 or 4
ness-4
peach-4 30(with)
roy-30
samus-24
LY-24
zedla- 30 4
Is this a list of characters landing lag after their upB? If so, this is INCREDIBLY useful and will be what decides a lot of individual placings.
 

BBQ°

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sheik's recovery is pretty good lol. Have you guys seen Amsah or Over Triforce play? They really know how to abuse the hitbox from the up-b, and if they're forced to recover on stage, they just smash DI and tech the hit. Not to mention Sheik's up-b turns her invincible so she can't be edgeguarded through a conventional manner (this is mostly a problem for low tiers and stuff)
 

KirbyKaze

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Ness's recovery is, imo, worse than Doc's.

sheik's recovery is pretty good lol. Have you guys seen Amsah or Over Triforce play? They really know how to abuse the hitbox from the up-b, and if they're forced to recover on stage, they just smash DI and tech the hit. Not to mention Sheik's up-b turns her invincible so she can't be edgeguarded through a conventional manner (this is mostly a problem for low tiers and stuff)
It's mostly vs space animal D-smash when this occurs. And if the space animal just keeps D-smashing, they'll die.

When Sheik recovers onto the stage vs a lot of mid tiers, they get free chain grabs on her, which is pretty good. Puff gets a free Rest. Lots of people get great, free stuff when she recovers.
 

xbombr

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Ness vs. Doc is tough for me to take a stance on... It's basically distance potential vs. gimpability. Ness is obviously far more gimpable in his recovery start up (lol@ gimping PkT2 Ness) and Doc has far less distance potential while still being easy to gimp.

Experienced Ness players tend to survive pretty well, but so do Doc's with their pill recovery and broken sweet spot range. Ness has a pretty good sweet spot too, but he can't get people away from the ledge when he's recovering high like Doc can.

Overall, I'd probably give the edge to Doc. When he's above the stage he's much better due to pills. They probably go even-ish in terms of recovery from below.
 

otg

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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Ness's recovery is, imo, worse than Doc's.
Interesting, I could potentially agree with this. I'd like to hear more of your rationale if you dno't mind.

Ness vs. Doc is tough for me to take a stance on... It's basically distance potential vs. gimpability. Ness is obviously far more gimpable in his recovery start up (lol@ gimping PkT2 Ness) and Doc has far less distance potential while still being easy to gimp.

Experienced Ness players tend to survive pretty well, but so do Doc's with their pill recovery and broken sweet spot range. Ness has a pretty good sweet spot too, but he can't get people away from the ledge when he's recovering high like Doc can.

Overall, I'd probably give the edge to Doc. When he's above the stage he's much better due to pills. They probably go even-ish in terms of recovery from below.
I think another factor that you are missing is room for error. Even if the Ness player is quite proficient with aiming the PKT2, there are certain areas where it is impossible for him to make it back. Doc's recovery loses to people who grab the ledge.
 

TresChikon

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Is this a list of characters landing lag after their upB? If so, this is INCREDIBLY useful and will be what decides a lot of individual placings.
Looks like it, how about we organize by how exploitable each recovery is?

So it's less arbitrary and everything plays a decent role. Like although Samus has a long recovery her speed can be exploited and although Falco has very quick and multiple options to get onstage, his length can be exploited...or something like that. Or Doc has pills to protect himself and it's hard to exploit his descent towards the stage.
 

Pink Reaper

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Just throwing this out there:

God Tier:

1) Jiggs(no need to explain this one)

High Tier:

2) Mewtwo
3) Peach
4) Pichu
5) Pikachu
6) Fox
7) Ice Climbers

Upper Tier:
8) Falco
9) Sheik

Mid Tier:
10) Samus
11) Game & Watch
12) Falcon/Ganon
13) Ganon/Falcon
14) Link
15) Marth
16) Y. Link

Low Tier:
17) Kirby
18) Luigi
19) Yoshi
20) SoPo
21) DK/Bowser
22) Bowser/DK

Bottom Tier:
23) Zelda
24) Ness
25) Mario
26) Roy
27) Doc

Explanations for top and high tier are on the first few pages with the exception of Ice Climbers

Ice Climbers: Imo one of the best recoveries in the game if you have both climbers. The sheer vertical distance covered by their up B or horizontal distance from their Side B give them good options no matter where they are. But it's the invincibility that really puts them in high tier. At the beginning of their Up B nana becomes a GTFO MY LEDGE projectile giving Popo quite a bit of breathing room to get on stage. Even if it ends up with Nana dead it almost always guarantees at least the SoPo makes it back alive so the fact that it's only a single option doesn't change the fact that it's such a powerful option that the IC's deserve high tier.

Upper Tier: These two im doing as a single entry. While some people will disagree with the placing of Falco I can promise you it's correct. As the single best user of Directional Influence in the game combined with the outright equal options of Fox for recovery he easily has one of the best recoveries in the game, even if it is short. Sheik is her own kind of beast, and just like the ICs, she jumps up just due to the fact that she's stupidly hard to stop when she's recovering. Her invincibility frames combined with the amount of control and options gained from her Up B give her one of the best recoveries in the game, easily.

Samus: Briefly covered already, samus's recovery is far and away not as good as people think it is. It's long, that's great, but when it actually comes to getting back on stage she's quite limited. Her tether recovery is not particularly safe, nor is her Up B so getting from below the ledge to the ledge is difficult for her. More so any tether that's not sweet spotted is very punishable by ledge drop attacks. Definitely not terrible by any means but far from the top/high tier recovery people think it is.

Game & Watch: This character is silly. He earns his high spot mostly due to the stages we currently have being legal giving him the ability to survive a looooong time(well, i mean, longer than normal for such a lightweight low tier character) His Up B is HUGE, his sweet spot range is ******** and he has those "On stage" options that so many characters would long for because he has the ability to actually use that 4 frame landing(very rarely will you not come out of his Up B with that low lag landing) If there were more stages like YS playable he'd probably be lower but because there's not he gets a place high up on the list.

Falcon/Ganon: These are two characters I cant quite place. On the one hand Falcon has some of the best DI in the game, a solid recovery distance and more straight up options than Ganon. On the other hand Ganon is ******** heavy so he just outright gets MORE chances to recover. Insight into this, if you've ever watched SS play Falcon you realize Falcon actually has alot of recovery options. From high his sweet spot is actually pretty large and his ability to edge cancel his recovery is a godsend. Also special note goes out to his(and any other character's really) wall jump. Wall Jumping gives invincibility frames, only a few, but it's usable. Falcon has at least a moderate amount of control of his Up B giving him quite a bit of options. But then there's Ganon. Ganon has an outright longer recovery, more weight meaning if he gets hit out of something he can STILL recover, and the shorter distance on his Down B means he can approach the ledge without using his very gimpable Up B. Their recoveries in my mind are about the same so I cant really place one over the other.

Link: Link reaches a high position in my mind solely because of how well he clears the ledge while recovering. A combination of his Bombs and his ability to space his Up B means that it's actually very difficult to straight edgehog/guard him and his tether recovery amplifies that by allowing him even more range on his recovery. His recovery is however somewhat predictable and he lacks the ability to recover from low and slightly away that many other characters have. Just like the normal Tier List, Link is basically dead center. Good options, usable, but nothing spectacular.

Marth: Marth doesn't recover high well. There, I said it. He's good at clearing the ledge like Link is but lacks options outside of his Up B which at this point is predictable. He still has good range, a large sweet spot and his Up B isn't extremely punishable meaning he's not quite low tier, but he's far from one of the best recoveries out there.

Young Link: See Link. Decrease range on everything by about 10 feet, add a wall jump.

Kirby: This character literally represents exactly what it means to have a "Low tier" recovery, so much so that he deserves the top spot for it. He has range, vertical and horizontal but he only has the most basic options. Jump+Up B or Air Dodge, nothing else. Very usable, and he has at least some ledge clearing options if he has extra jumps but at the end of the day its just a really basic recovery and if he gets hit out of it he's in trouble.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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Pichu's up-B is shorter, has a worse sweet, less chances to recover I think he should be lower than pikachu also there are no cases where he NEEDS his wall jump to recover other than maybe on FoD.

YL's up-b go higher than link's

Also some people in no way rely on mistakes. Take puff, peach,pichu,pikachu, m2 they can simply just go around the edge guarder because their recoveries, are retardedly long and good. I can go totally around the edge guarder as pichu i've punished marth's by mistiming their f-smash on my recover by 2 frames and I got a grab, mostly caused by his small frame if you recover smart as pichu it's should be impossible to be hit. sheik no matter how smart you are you are uber limited if they are on the edge, I just watched falco punish sheik when she recovered as far as she could onto the stage.

Also I think their should be a broken tier were they are at the point where if they recover smart they should never get edge guarded other than in rare cases.
 

Pink Reaper

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Pichu's Up B is longer than Pikas, I would of assumed you of all people would know that.

Yes Y.Links Up b goes higher than Links but in general he has less control over how he can recover does to his inability to sweep the ledge as well as Link can with Up B.
 

unknown522

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pink reaper, kirby should be bottom tier recovery. Even with 5 jumps, it's so bad.

Also, thank you for noting that falco in fact does have a good recovery! It's better than the IC's recovery though.

Yes Y.Links Up b goes higher than Links but in general he has less control over how he can recover does to his inability to sweep the ledge as well as Link can with Up B.
The hook being longer really helps
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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No check that S*** out pikachu's can go to the top of battlefeilds top platform pichu's can't I'm the only one who ever stopped to check that out pikachu has like 2 feet per a jump. I made a big deal out of it once on m2k's list thing

agreed on YL thing
 

Pink Reaper

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Nah, bottom tier is a special place for only the absolute worst recoveries in the game, recoveries that basically work against the character. Roy everyone should understand, Ness has a recovery that loses to things like Walls and Shy Guys(and anything with a jump really) Zelda is just like, stupid. Mario and Doc aren't so bad except they have that problem where if they get hit low or are hit high with no jump they die, no matter what percent they are at.

Kirby's recovery isn't too bad. He at least has the options to recover how he wants to.


Edit: Oh crap, ICG's right lol. I should have known that too, I tried to do the edge cancel thingy that Axe showed me with Pichu and couldn't cus his Up B didn't go high enough. Isn't his second half of the up B longer though?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I pretty much agree with pink's list, except i don't think marth's recovery is 6 spots worse than sheik's. Comparable distance, although marth benefits from superb DI moreso than sheik (sheik's air movement is one of the worst, marth's is pretty good; marth has sideb which helps him gain more distance; comparable land lag).

also, marth has more opportunities to regain the edge than ganon if he holds his jump, though ganon is heavier and can come back from just about anything that doesn't put him through the blastzones. ganon can't sweetspot and can't reliably go high because of his low horizontal movement on his upb (unlike falcon's).

samus lower than falco and sheik????
 

Pink Reaper

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The ability to DI is affected by a combination of Fallspeed + Weight where the greater the combination of the 2 means the greater ability to DI hits. As such Sheik actually has slightly better control of DI than marth does. As such Superb DI actually does more for Sheik than Marth as she can actually control where she goes whereas Marth can just "Not Die"

Samus' recovery is not that good. Its long but that's all it really has going for it. In the same vain as Ganon, it doesn't matter how long your recovery is if you cant actually get back to the ledge. Falco us much much better at getting either to the ledge or on the stage safely when compared to Samus. Sheik has a bit more trouble on the stage(6 more frames of lag) but much less trouble getting to the ledge and mixing up her recoveries.

Falco/Sheik > Samus.
 

KirbyKaze

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Interesting, I could potentially agree with this. I'd like to hear more of your rationale if you dno't mind.
Mostly it revolves around him having the same sort of weaknesses of Fox/Falco's Firefox, where there's a nice second or two to jump out and hit him, only if you nick the startup hitbox, you take 8% and Ness dies, so even that's beneficial. And even if you don't, he falls slowly, has nice lag at the end, and you basically get a free whatever the heck you want (this assumes you've eliminated his ability to sweetspot the edge by grabbing it; ledgehop Bair/Nair over and over often ends his life anyway).

He has no mid-air stall trick to maybe work things out against people unfamiliar with it.

His jump itself is a liability against some kinds of gimping strategies because he can't come up with an attack or he loses all vertical momentum and drops to his doom. This probably sounds weird, but a lot of times Marth D-throws Falcon offstage and Falcon makes it because Marth tries to go offstage but Falcon survival DIs the D-throw and immediately Uairs (which is why Mew2King says 50/50 between Counter and run off whatever). Ness's jump prevents him from being able to do that kind of strategy against any character. He can't instant Up+B to try and trick people or catch them offguard, doesn't have invinicbility to make it at least onstage and then prepare for the worst, he just has to drop and hope the opponent doesn't track him properly.

He also can't come down with a projectile and defend himself that way when he's high, he doesn't have any priority so to speak sans his Fair, so he sucks at defending himself when he's recovering high, etc.

Lots of reasons.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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I still don't think sheik's is that good is lacks options, range, and is highly/easily punishable, you must grab the edge.

Also something i've been thinking about but I might be wrong.

when I'm pichu compared to my marth when I di I live longer as pichu(not counting recover just not dieing right away) than I do as marth even if marth is heavier and has better di I still live as pichu a little longer. I think the reason is because pichu falls faster I think it lets me di higher to live were as marth I might die this makes me wonrder if people should di differently by small angles for max di. like maybe roy should di upwards and a littl eto the stage due to his fast falling compared to puff were she can live longer simply diing to left or right. I don't know but di is crazy
 

otg

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Just throwing this out there:

God Tier:

1) Jiggs(no need to explain this one)

High Tier:

2) Mewtwo
3) Peach
4) Pichu
5) Pikachu
6) Fox
7) Ice Climbers

Upper Tier:
8) Falco
9) Sheik

Mid Tier:
10) Samus
11) Game & Watch
12) Falcon/Ganon*
13) Ganon/Falcon*
14) Link
15) Marth
16) Y. Link

Low Tier:
17) Kirby
18) Luigi*
19) Yoshi
20) SoPo*
21) DK/Bowser
22) Bowser/DK

Bottom Tier:
23) Zelda
24) Ness
25) Mario*
26) Roy*
27) Doc*
The asterisks are the characters I have some problems with. Like for example, I think Falcon's recovery is absolutely abysmal and should be lower. Luigi should be lower, as well as SoPo. I also think that Mario/Doc are above Roy. Your rationale for them being lower then him was "if they get knocked off stage without a jump they are dead no matter what". Doesn't this apply to Roy (as well as many other characters?) even more so then the Marios? I also think Mario should be a lil higher, no idea where to place him tho.

This list looks pretty good tho, everyone is in the general vicinity where they should be minus a few here and there.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The ability to DI is affected by a combination of Fallspeed + Weight where the greater the combination of the 2 means the greater ability to DI hits. As such Sheik actually has slightly better control of DI than marth does. As such Superb DI actually does more for Sheik than Marth as she can actually control where she goes whereas Marth can just "Not Die"
I thought fall speed only had secondary effects on DI, reducing your vertical knockback, but obviously making your fall faster so when you're knocked horizontally it becomes a downfall.

for actual horizontal air movement, sheik's is one of the worst and marth's is a bit better

HTML:
1) Jigglypuff
2-3) Mewtwo / Yoshi
4) Captain Falcon
5) Peach
6-7) Link / Young Link
8-9) DK / Mr. Game & Watch
10) Zelda
11) Ness
12-14) Dr. Mario / Marth / Roy
15) Samus
16) Mario
17-18) Pichu / Pikachu
19) Sheik
20) Bowser
21-22) Ganondorf / Kirby
23) Ice Climbers
24) Luigi
25-26) Falco / Fox
If they both DI to the top corner of the blastzones, marth will have a better time recovering because he doesn't need to use his jump for horizontal movement and can rely on DIing toward the stage with sideb's for the majority of it then using his jump to clear the edge or defend himself if they go off stage. Sheik will simply live longer because she weighs more and falls faster. I will agree sheik's upb is a little safer if someone has the edge because you can go onto platforms or further into the stage with a few frames less lag, but as far as defending yourself offstage and fighting for the edge back, i think marth does it the best besides puff.

overall what im saying is the recoveries are pretty **** similar in most aspects, and i find it weird that they are in different teirs and separated by 6 spots.
 

gm jack

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Sheik actually has fairly good range and options on her up B. They aren't great, but it's enough that they can't have a set of procedures to follow to guarantee a kill. They have to commit in order to punish most options (ledge, above ledge to falling on it for people going for the edgehog, onto stage, onto platform). That said, if they guess right, they can get a lot off easily.

That said, Sheik can edge cancel her UpB on a platform. It's just a little bit on the incredibly difficult side of things.
 

Pink Reaper

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I'll respond to everything later, right now I have to leave, but I will say this:

if Sheik does get knocked to the uppermost corner she has another option: Zelda. Transform would allow her to slow her decent and advance towards the ledge more without wasting a jump.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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after careful thinking I think

broken:
puff
peach
mewtwo
pikachu
pichu

high:
samus
fox
ice climbers
G&W

mid:
YL
luigi
falco
link
falcon
gannon

low:
zedla
bowser
kirby
yoshi
DK(loses B when hit so when he recovers he is at an even larger disadvance than most people)

bottom:
ness
marth
mario
sheik
doc
popo
roy


I think this is pretty legit over all but details are amazing why this right. I think this is what we should base it off of.
 

BBQ°

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@ ICG's list:

I think that Ganon's recovery is better than Falcon's, since Ganon's up-b has a larger grab range.

But then again, Falcon can wall jump, so idk.

I think Marth and Sheik's recovery should be above Falcon/Ganon.
 
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