Is Zelda still considered "the worst?"

[Sean_bot]

This is something that has been talked about in the community for a while, and I feel like it still has a poor answer (the question being "is Zelda really the worst in a near 60 man roster?"). There have been candidates for this spot before, such as Palutena, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Samus(which I feel is invalid now), but Zelda still seems to be the most popular. What do you think? Would love to see your thoughts

 

[chris1855]

I think she's above the 2 miis and jiggs

 

[Rickster]

I don't think she's the worst, just....maybe the 2nd or 3rd worst, lol. I would only put behind her, and maaaybe and . I would put behind her too, but she actually gets results.

Zelda is a lot better than people say she is, but she's still awful. Just not unusable like everyone likes to say she is.

 

[chris1855]

I don't think she's the worst, just....maybe the 2nd or 3rd worst, lol. I would only put behind her, and maaaybe and . I would put behind her too, but she actually gets results.

Zelda is a lot better than people say she is, but she's still awful. Just not unusable like everyone likes to say she is.

dude, Samus is like #11 worst

 

[Deleted member]

People who say Samus is bottom 5 are completely ignorant to the character, her abilities and the amount of good results she actually gets, and beyond a local level too. She's a low-tier, but not godawful or unredeemable like most people say she is. Bottom 10 or 15 is accurate, but 5? You're giving me a headache.

It's why I'm still peeved she's near the same placement on the 4BR tier list because people will just scapegoat off that.

 

[Rickster]

Um, I said she gets good results? That was the reason I said I would put her behind Zelda if it wasn't for that.

 

[Cress!]

Bottom 5 would be:
Pale Tuna because she isn't Viridi.
Jigglypuff because she isn't Wigglytuff.
Lucina because she isn't Marth.
Samus because she isn't Zero Suit Samus.
Zelda because she isn't Sheik.
/thread
Alternatively, top 5 would be:
Sheik because she isn't Zelda.
Zero Suit Samus because she isn't Samus.
Rosalina because she isn't Lubba.
Female Corrin because she isn't Male Corrin.
Female Robin because "How can you protect Chrom if you can't protect yourself?" (AKA she isn't Lucina)

 

[Jcsaenz1]

I don't really think she's the worst. I'd put Jiggs and Ganon behind her, from my experience I've beaten a lot people who play these characters on FG (both good and bad players) with her using simple reads and landing the lightning kick and up airs. They're slow, so timing is rather easy when compared to landing those moves on people like sheik.

 

[BJN39]

People who say Samus is bottom 5 are completely ignorant to the character, her abilities and the amount of good results she actually gets, and beyond a local level too. She's a low-tier, but not godawful or unredeemable like most people say she is. Bottom 10 or 15 is accurate, but 5? You're giving me a headache.

It's why I'm still peeved she's near the same placement on the 4BR tier list because people will just scapegoat off that.

Ew.

gorl there's a reason why things like this

Have to exist

MESS.

 

[frest123]

Jiggs has the ridiculously good Rest to keep her from being that bad. There are players that actually consider playing her like Reflex and Serynder.

Samus is actually quite good imo. She has results and people do play her. Probably mid tier.

Ganon hits so hard (knockback AND percentage). If you get the slightest momentum, you can win. Still, he does compete with Zelda for worst slot. However, I believe the Ganon v Zelda MU is in Ganon's favour once he understands Zelda's flaws in camping and approaching. Also, Ganon can edgeguard Zelda hard. Too many people don't understand Zelda actually has a quite easily exploited recovery.

Idk much about the Miis tbh so I'll avoid commenting on them.

 

[BJN39]

Ganon can edgeguard Zelda hard. Too many people don't understand Zelda actually has a quite easily exploited recovery.

Tell me how

Because this is literally the biggest nope of this post.


And I'm comparing that to the fact you just said Rest carries Jiggs from being bad and Samus is mid tier.

 

[Furret]

This is something that has been talked about in the community for a while, and I feel like it still has a poor answer (the question being "is Zelda really the worst in a near 60 man roster?"). There have been candidates for this spot before, such as Palutena, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Samus(which I feel is invalid now), but Zelda still seems to be the most popular. What do you think? Would love to see your thoughts

idk how anything can be worse then

 

[Deleted member]

The only Puff player out there is RDR7, Seryender has been inactive for quite some time now. Pretty sure Reflex only plays just Wario and Mewtwo.

Same goes for Zelda, Ven is like the only notable solo Zelda who gets decent results lol

 

[chris1855]

Bottom 5 would be:
Pale Tuna because she isn't Viridi.
Jigglypuff because she isn't Wigglytuff.
Lucina because she isn't Marth.
Samus because she isn't Zero Suit Samus.
Zelda because she isn't Sheik.
/thread
Alternatively, top 5 would be:
Sheik because she isn't Zelda.
Zero Suit Samus because she isn't Samus.
Rosalina because she isn't Lubba.
Female Corrin because she isn't Male Corrin.
Female Robin because "How can you protect Chrom if you can't protect yourself?" (AKA she isn't Lucina)

bruh how is lucina bottom 5 especially after buffs

Ew.

gorl there's a reason why things like this

Have to exist

MESS.

I completely disagree with this mess

 

[frest123]

Tell me how

Because this is literally the biggest nope of this post.


And I'm comparing that to the fact you just said Rest carries Jiggs from being bad and Samus is mid tier.

I'm not saying Rest carries Jiggs, honey. I'm saying that it is ridiculously good and gives her a chance in any MU. What does Zelda have that's comparable to Rest? If you wanna go further, Jiggs has overall better framedata than Zelda in almost every way (Rest included as a frame one invicibility)

Samus, I guess I'm being too generous calling her Mid-Tier (maybe better to say she barely makes it into Mid Tier) but just because she has flawed design in some moves, doesn't hold her back from having what does work, working. I think her general concept is still successful.

EDIT 1: Just remembered there was that one guy that took ZERO to a close game 3 with Samus against ZeRo's Sheik. I don't think Zelda would ever be able to do such a thing.

Zelda's ledge snap can easily be stage spiked or just flat out spiked. Zelda's recovery is exploitable by anyone that knows where and when to hit her and one of Ganon's strengths is his edge guarding.

Here's a video that has some points where Zelda's recovery is exploited. (One point is at around 0:40 where if you imagine Ganon punishing instead of Peach, that would be stock) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cO-xR8ID6U

EDIT 2: I hope we're clear that we're talking about how these characters will fit in much later in the games cycle when gimmicks no longer work. Gimmicks like Zeldavator, Dthrow Uair, and basically the whole gimmick that Zelda is in general. With gimmicks removed, Zelda is the worst.

 

[BJN39]

I'm not saying Rest carries Jiggs, honey. I'm saying that it is ridiculously good and gives her a chance in any MU. What does Zelda have that's comparable to Rest? If you wanna go further, Jiggs has overall better framedata than Zelda in almost every way (Rest included as a frame one invicibility)

Zelda's ledge snap can easily be stage spiked or just flat out spiked. Zelda's recovery is exploitable by anyone that knows where and when to hit her and one of Ganon's strengths is his edge guarding.

Here's a video that has some points where Zelda's recovery is exploited. (One point is at around 0:40 where if you imagine Ganon punishing instead of Peach, that would be stock) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cO-xR8ID6U

EDIT 2: I hope we're clear that we're talking about how these characters will fit in much later in the games cycle when gimmicks no longer work. Gimmicks like Zeldavator, Dthrow Uair, and basically the whole gimmick that Zelda is in general. With gimmicks removed, Zelda is the worst.

Actually Jigglypuff's frame data bar aerials is pretty much even with Zelda's as far as endlag. They each have different things that are faster/slower than the other's move.

That said of course Jiggs will stick to aerials because her ground game is also statistically worse than Zelda's in almost every way. A fact you decided not to mention, only the frame data...

Elevator kills at roughly the same percents as a rest. (At tad later) It can be DI'ed in an attempt to avoid hit 2, yes, but you have options after that: you can abort the attack (down) and avoid super punishment, or you can follow their DI. If we're gonna hypothesize on a day where "gimmicks are out" then a Zelda player will just read reaction and get off fine there.

If puff fails her rest you basically broke your own shield. (Except when she does that she actually dies lol) Combined that with the fact that she is the lightest character. I just yesterday watched a low rage Bayonetta do a full charge Usmash on a resting Jiggs and kill her at 30. If Jiggs loses the lead (via common super low % death) she has to gain it back and she's screwed there.

Also lmao Dthrow UAir isn't a gimmick. I've seen Nairo follow OUTWARD DI before and hit someone with UAir before. It's not a gimmick when KBG causes all throws to eventually stop connecting.

As for Zelda's ledge snap being abusable, there's a way around that for any situation where she's not low below.

oh am i being summoned for a science lesson

snap high = invincible

approach ledge from below, hold down to delay snap, release down after passing ledge = invincible

If you watch high level sheiks in particular you'll see them abuse these recovery angles a lot, but anyone can take advantage of it and it's definitely the easiest/most significant with teleport recoveries to ensure they safely reach the ledge.


It is actually all recoveries/'ledge grabs in general, the first time I noticed it was when a Ganondorf mysteriously snapped diagonally down through Luma safely

Let me close by saying I don't care if Jiggs is better than Zelda via lists.


Your best reasons were just missing info and it triggered me

 

[Cress!]

bruh how is lucina bottom 5 especially after buffs

You complain about that but not about Robin being top 5. I thought that would've made it clear that I was joking, but nope.
I'm shocked. How could someone actually take that seriously?

I don't think that Lucina is bottom 5, but she isn't Marth so nobody will care. :)

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

I'd say Zelda is definitely bottom tier (or just low), but there's no way to tell how low just yet. She's got some potential, but she often feels unreliable because of the result of her character design. She's more glass than she is cannon, but the fact that she has the cannon aspect about her is one of her big strengths. Where she falters lies in character attributes, something that could've used some fixing (but the developers never cared to actually fix her main flaws properly anyways).

 

[Kofu]

People who say Samus is bottom 5 are completely ignorant to the character, her abilities and the amount of good results she actually gets, and beyond a local level too. She's a low-tier, but not godawful or unredeemable like most people say she is. Bottom 10 or 15 is accurate, but 5? You're giving me a headache.

It's why I'm still peeved she's near the same placement on the 4BR tier list because people will just scapegoat off that.

Samus certainly isn't irredeemable but I'm not sure who I'd place below her is the problem. Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganon, Palutena, Lucina (though more because she's just utterly outclassed, not because she's necessarily worse). Maybe default Brawler, IDK.

Samus isn't super low difficulty (she takes some practice) but she's not too far off from it once you know her hitboxes and her bread and butter combos. Sure, you can optimize her more, but what's the point when there are other characters who can get the same reward for easier?

 

[Deleted member]

Samus certainly isn't irredeemable but I'm not sure who I'd place below her is the problem. Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganon, Palutena, Lucina (though more because she's just utterly outclassed, not because she's necessarily worse). Maybe default Brawler, IDK.

Samus isn't super low difficulty (she takes some practice) but she's not too far off from it once you know her hitboxes and her bread and butter combos. Sure, you can optimize her more, but what's the point when there are other characters who can get the same reward for easier?

, , and I'd all put below her.

But yeah, valid point. She struggles against most relevant characters, despite having a niche MU in Luigi. Johnny Westside is just really, really amazing though lol. I wonder how far he'll push Samus.

 

[Kofu]

, , and I'd all put below her.

But yeah, valid point. She struggles against most relevant characters, despite having a niche MU in Luigi. Johnny Westside is just really, really amazing though lol. I wonder how far he'll push Samus.

Dedede probably is worse (I tend to forget that he's bad because I think he's really fun); both characters get juggled but Samus has fast buttons and a better ace-in-the-hole and isn't as big a target. I disagree with Dr. Mario and Roy, though. Dr. Mario is basically a heavy squeezed into Mario's frame and frame data, and while he isn't as mobile, he's vicious once he gets in and can be risky to pressure thanks to Up-B. Roy's mobility and grab game are wonderful and can't be discounted. Hard to compare either character to Samus but both seem to have a little more going for them. Mac is arguable but I'm inclined to say he's better (on average). He's just so polarized and gets crapped on by stages more than any other character.

Anyway.



I don't know if she's THE worst but she's in the bottom rung. Average to poor mobility, mediocre frame data, overly specialized aerials, and a defensive character with no real way to force approaches is not a good combination. That said, her disadvantage is rather good and she has wicked punish and offstage games

 

[frest123]

About Palutena, I think she's pretty bad but still has some really good moves like FAir and BAir that at least lets her do something. The latter has a super powerful shielding hitbox. She also has a super potent kill option in UAir (which you can confirm into from Dthrow) and she has kill throws (albeit not that strong) in the form of Uthrow and Bthrow. She has good speed and a usable Dash Attack (though it can be punished hard if read). But that's about it.

I think her biggest shortcomings are her specials and tilts. Her specials are just so limited. It makes you wanna cry when you compare it to specials of other characters (like Sheik and her multipurpose Bouncing Fish). And you actually do cry when you realise that she could have had better specials in the form of her customs.

Petition to bring back customs for Palutena exclusively pls.

Her tilts are basically all laggy and are heavy commitments that can only be used on a hard read (which you should probably be doing something more rewarding like a Smash attack anyway). They have some use like Ftilt for rolls, spot dodge and shield pressure. Or Utilt to cover ledge options. Or Dtit as a neutral mix up. But why do they have to be so subpar when moves as ridiculous as Cloud's UAir exist?

 

[Furret]

playing both the characters.

is by far the better character or at least has the better match up with zelda despite every main wanting to play against big characters
I honestly just like

neutral game over neutral game.

doesn't need to get as close to be able to do things or least be threatening. zelda wants to be close, but at the same time not be, "perfect spacing" comes to mind. Which i think hurts her a lot when you're talking about a character with poor approach, decent kill potential, decent range, great recovery, poor frame data, is slightly light vs

a character with poor approach, decent kill potential, great range, great recovery, poor frame data, refuses to die.

I really see the trade off as has better edge guarding.

has better range/neutral.

my opinions on a lot of zelda match ups would change if sour spot fairs and bairs were safe on hit (which would allow her to actually use her range). I'd say the same for dedede if his landing lag was improved (30 frames for a fair is it's own level of poor character design), but what can you do. Other then getting better

 

[Meru.]

Dedede probably is worse (I tend to forget that he's bad because I think he's really fun); both characters get juggled but Samus has fast buttons and a better ace-in-the-hole and isn't as big a target. I disagree with Dr. Mario and Roy, though. Dr. Mario is basically a heavy squeezed into Mario's frame and frame data, and while he isn't as mobile, he's vicious once he gets in and can be risky to pressure thanks to Up-B. Roy's mobility and grab game are wonderful and can't be discounted. Hard to compare either character to Samus but both seem to have a little more going for them. Mac is arguable but I'm inclined to say he's better (on average). He's just so polarized and gets crapped on by stages more than any other character.

Anyway.



I don't know if she's THE worst but she's in the bottom rung. Average to poor mobility, mediocre frame data, overly specialized aerials, and a defensive character with no real way to force approaches is not a good combination. That said, her disadvantage is rather good and she has wicked punish and offstage games

There's no way Dedede is worse than Zelda. Dedede has a pretty good advantage, his attacks HURT and many can kill early. His neutral is bad but not as bad as Zelda. He gets combod hard but at least he doesn't die, unlike lightweight Zelda.

Zelda's disadvantage is not good, it's pretty bad. Her landings are easily one if the worst in the game since she's floaty and has no good defensive options in the air to cover herself. Her only redeeming quality is her good recoveru but her ledge game is again one of the worst since her jump is slow (it forces you to land which she isnt good at) and she has no good double jump aerials. Definitely not a good disadvantage state.

The only char I find comparable to how bad Zelda is, is Jigglypuff but Jigglypuff decently good aerials, edgeguarding game and walling game make her a slight bit better than Zelda imo.

 

[Furret]

There's no way Dedede is worse than Zelda. Dedede has a pretty good advantage, his attacks HURT and many can kill early

actually that is a bit of a misconception on dedede.
Not the hurt part,

swings for a minimum of 11% on most stuff. but the KO part isn't fully true. there's not many situations where your going to get clean hit with moves that will kill early (these being fresh DA or a clean Fsmash). It's more like at ko percents half of his buttons turn into kill moves.

 

[Kofu]

There's no way Dedede is worse than Zelda. Dedede has a pretty good advantage, his attacks HURT and many can kill early. His neutral is bad but not as bad as Zelda. He gets combod hard but at least he doesn't die, unlike lightweight Zelda.

That was actually a tangent on Dedede being worse than Samus, not Zelda. My apologies for the confusion.

 

[Deleted member]

actually that is a bit of a misconception on dedede.
Not the hurt part,

swings for a minimum of 11% on most stuff. but the KO part isn't fully true. there's not many situations where your going to get clean hit with moves that will kill early (these being fresh DA or a clean Fsmash). It's more like at ko percents half of his buttons turn into kill moves.

Pretty much. Dedede has strong kill moves but none of them are easy to land in a neutral situation since almost everything he has is unsafe on shield bar a well spaced bair or forward smash. His moves that do hit like tanks (Jet Hammer, dash attack, forward smash) all have a ton of startup and are very predictable, so most of the times when going for the kill you have to fish for a down smash read or do something like FF bair.

That was actually a tangent on Dedede being worse than Samus, not Zelda. My apologies for the confusion.

Dedede is defo worse than Samus, so I agree with you.

 

[Ridel]

, , and I'd all put below her.

Ehh I wouldn't say so, these characters get much better placements and overall are just more viable/niche secondaries. Zelda's main issue is her lack of consistency. These characters have definite strengths and weaknesses which make them much easier to work with despite having a lot of flaws. On the other hand Zelda's reliance on sweet spots is what makes her very inconsistent to play and it comes down to luck for the most part. Sure you could argue just to learn the spacing but the size of the sweet spots and the lack of meaningful set-ups to even have a chance to land them, makes them very high risk with a toss up of low reward or high reward.

 

[ZombieBran]

Zelda is the worst.
It's not a revolutionary idea at all.

 

[frest123]

You know a character is the worst when people that main her and have put every effort into her (and still are putting every effort into her) call her the worst themselves.

 

[Theosmeo]

This is something that has been talked about in the community for a while, and I feel like it still has a poor answer (the question being "is Zelda really the worst in a near 60 man roster?"). There have been candidates for this spot before, such as Palutena, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Samus(which I feel is invalid now), but Zelda still seems to be the most popular. What do you think? Would love to see your thoughts

Ooooooh lookie here the high and mighty top tier main has descended upon us with all their grace and glory to give us the opportunity to bicker over with one of us was the most ****ed by Sakurai. I am most honored by your presence and will proceed to bash/defend Zelda/my main. Well I say BAH! Worst character means absolutely nothing at all when you're surrounded by others that are all quite similar in quality. You can take your game of low tier gladiator and shove it Sean_bot . Wait are you even a human, or are you a robot in disguise Mr. Bot? I guess time will tell, as in the 6 minutes you spend spamm- zoning me out huh. I've had it with your nonsense. Zelda mains, and anyone else here who thought their character was cool when they bought the game and had a 15 minute crying session upon reading their frame data for the first time, we must UNITE AS ONE. The LOW TIER UNION! To destroy the top tier menace, because we're all kinda ok at teams or something...

/s Sean I'm sure you're super cool

Oh and PS Ganon isn't the worst character in the game by far. Do any of you punks have a Bair or Uair that come our frame 10 and 6(respectively) and do 17% and 12%(respectively) and kill and autocancel out of a SHFF and are ridiculously disjointed to the degree that you may as well just use them instead of an airdodge?

I didn't think so

 

[Ridel]

I know you were trying to be satirical with that first paragraph but it wasn't funny tbh.

Oh and PS Ganon isn't the worst character in the game by far. Do any of you punks have a Bair or Uair that come our frame 10 and 6(respectively) and do 17% and 12%(respectively) and kill and autocancel out of a SHFF and are ridiculously disjointed to the degree that you may as well just use them instead of an airdodge?

Dunno man the Koopalings have a very meaty f-air and b-air that auto-cancel off a short hop and unlike Ganon they have actual set-ups into them and a host larger disjoint.

 

[Theosmeo]

I know you were trying to be satirical with that first paragraph but it wasn't funny tbh.

Dunno man the Koopalings have a very meaty f-air and b-air that auto-cancel off a short hop and unlike Ganon they have actual set-ups into them and a larger disjoint.

I'm sorry man it was like 1 A.M for me, you didn't have to be so rude about it. Now I just feel awkward.

Also no 10 and 12 frame startups don't equal 6 and 10 frames startups, and 11 and 14 damage don't equal 13 and 17, and while I'll concede they have impressive disjoint and active frames, the angle they knock people and their kill power are laughable relative to Ganons.

The point I was originally trying to make was that there's no practical reason to argue who the worst character is but to get into silly fights about frame data.

And you really hurt my feelings earlier btw, please show some restraint and consideration next time

 

[Furret]

And you really hurt my feelings earlier btw, please show some restraint and consideration next time

welcome to the zelda boards, we only do savage

 

[Ridel]

welcome to the zelda boards, we only do savage

Damn straight. I like you guys already.

I'm sorry man it was like 1 A.M for me, you didn't have to be so rude about it. Now I just feel awkward.

Sorry but it served no purpose to the actual discussion and you could have just skipped it all together.

 

[Rickster]

Are we turning into the Link boards?

Please no

 

[Jenna Zant]

Are we turning into the Link boards?

Please no

What's bad about the Link boards?

 

[Rickster]

What's bad about the Link boards?

Everything

In short a lot of them are rude/egotistical and their boards are basically run like a military camp. From what I've seen they don't like random new people much either. And they actually encourage all of this because "thick skin".

 

[chris1855]

I'm not understanding why people think Zelda is the worst

 

[Megamang]

^

Well, the question is as always, who is worse than Zelda? Don't say palutena.

Anyways, as someone else pointed out, being surrounded by characters of similar quality makes the sting of bottom tier not nearly as bad as it has been in previous smash titles.