Items for SUPER COMPETITIVE Play Discussion

[Rhubarbo]

With Brawl+ gaining steam and constantly improving in quality and balance, the prospect of introducing items into competitive play was totally forgotten. Items are a part of what distinguish Smash from many conventional fighters, and incorporating them in competitive play somehow would be neat.

Possible solutions to the item dilemma:

-Item drop countdown: I'm not sure if the hackers are capable of accomplishing this, but prior to an item falling, the audio clip of the announcer counting down from 3 to start the match would play to give the players a heads up.

-Fixed drop rate: The rate at which items drop is fixed.

-Fixed location: The location of where items drop is fixed.

-Fixed item: Which item drops where and when is fixed.

-Fixed Pokemon/AT according to stage: Each stage is assigned a Pokemon and Assist Trophy. This way the type of support character summoned is not random.

Immobilization: You can not "move and shoot' when using items such as the Super Scope, Fire Flower or Cracker Launcher.

Item shed: When holding an item like a Pokeball, you can taunt to drop the item but not throw it.

STAGE SET-UP EXAMPLES:

-On Battlefield, every two minutes, a Bomb-omb spawns at the center of the stage.

-On Final Destination, after seven minutes, an Assist Trophy holding Isaac spawns at the center of the stage.

-On Delfino Plaza, every minute, food spawns at the center of the stage.

-On Yoshi's Story, whenever the Whimsical Support Ghosts are up for three seconds, a gooey bomb spawns on each one.
---


I urge the hacking community to get together, and with some collaboration, help make item play a viable alternative to non-item play. Perhaps we can make items so balanced that their inclusion in a match can be left up to a counter pick!
---
FEEL FREE TO MAKE YOUR OWN SUGGESTIONS!

SUGGESTED BY SHADIC:-Item party warning: All items set to appear spawn out of a Party Ball that's in its opening animation in order to warn the players.

 

[lordhelmet]

Some of these ideas are cool, but I don't think too many hackers would want (or have the time) to do this.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Some of these ideas are cool, but I don't think too many hackers would want (or have the time) to do this.

Time is never an issue when dedication is a present trait!

 

[cman]

Possible solutions to the item dilemma:

-Item drop countdown: I'm not sure if the hackers are capable of accomplishing this, but prior to an item falling, the audio clip of the announcer counting down from 3 to start the match would play to give the players a heads up.

-Fixed drop rate: The rate at which items drop is fixed.

-Fixed location: The location of where items drop is fixed.

-Fixed item: Which item drops where and when is fixed.

-Fixed Pokemon/AT according to stage: Each stage is assigned a Pokemon and Assist Trophy. This way the type of support character summoned is not random.

Item shed: When holding an item like a Pokeball, you can taunt to drop the item but not throw it.

Quoted are my favorite ideas that you proposed.

I don't believe a lot is known about item drop locations, drop times, etc, so there isn't currently a way to control it as far as i know.

However, if there was much push, I'm sure that it could be figured out. Once someone does figure how to control that information, I think maybe making the item visible for 1-2 seconds before you could interact with it (ie. pick it up, hit it, explode it), then it would solve a lot of problems people have with items in play.

 

[Shadic]

Why not make it so that every item that appears comes out of a Partyball that's in the middle of its opening animation? That's plenty of warning.

Add that idea in, along with the ones Rhubarbo proposed.

 

[ratts]

At the least, this should be it's own project in case the founders of the other main projects don't want to pick this up.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Why not make it so that every item that appears comes out of a Partyball that's in the middle of its opening animation? That's plenty of warning.

Add that idea in, along with the ones Rhubarbo proposed.

Your suggestion's been added to the OP. I'll try to keep it updated with all the good suggestions!

 

[~CPU~]

it sounds pretty nice but there are most likely alot of people who wouldnt like this...

 

[FSLink]

If this is put in somehow, disable item throwing. Even average weapons (Like Star Rod), can become deadly if you just throw it at your opponent.

 

[cman]

If this is put in somehow, disable item throwing. Even average weapons (Like Star Rod), can become deadly if you just throw it at your opponent.

Throwing items in general is not overpowered. Possibly you could argue the knockback from some, especially home run bats, is too high, but i'm sure there is a way to modify the knockback values from items just like you can from any other move. Plus, some moves are good primarily when thrown, like fire flowers. Figuring out how to mod them individually would be a much better solution.

 

[Rudra]

If this is put in somehow, disable item throwing. Even average weapons (Like Star Rod), can become deadly if you just throw it at your opponent.

So, when you've run out of star shots, the item is supposed to be automatically discarded? What about the HRB? Its generally too slow to use as an attack, but its a great item to throw.

EDIT: cman's right. Might as well modify their KB.

 

[REL38]

It's impossible. Not only would hackers NOT want to pursue such an idea, but the community as a whole wouldn't like it. Items were taken out because of randomness. To make only certain items spawn at certain areas of a stage resembles games such as Halo. Power-ups and guns spawn at certain points in Halo, but are necessary (mostly guns). Items are not a necessary aspect to Smash. They're extra components made to make the game more appealing and fun, not for a competetive community. Having to rely on items takes away from every characters metagame and would give unfair advantage to certain characters. If a match gets down to the higher percents, then the first player to obtain an item is almost guarenteed a win. If items do fall down at certain points, then players are only going to camp out at spawn points and abuse them like heck.

But I'll humor the question. If we do allow items to spawn at certain points, then how do we find out which items are fair and unfair? Any explosion cannot work because they will detonate if attacked. If we have a bomb spawn on the ghosts on Yoshi's stage, then that arouses problems. For instance, if Marth needs to up-B to get on the ghost platform, then he will get hit by the bomb when trying to recover. A stage aspect made to help out players now is working against them. If Isaac were to be used on FD, then avoiding it is troublesome. You can be at low percents and get pushed off the stage, an easy set up for a spike that took little to no effort on the opponents side.

Items will never work because of their unfair properties that will shift the flow of gameplay left and right. The only item that ever had a chance of making it into competetive play was the Smash Ball, but we all know how that ended.

 

[Yingyay]

Im liking these ideas.
-decrease thrown item knockback - Heck yea. Baseball bat is more broken when thrown then swung.
-fixed item placement would be great in team battles. Power Stone used to do this I think.

I think this should be done well after brawl+ is finished tho. Seeing as we're kinda giving the coders a hard time with character specific stuff lol

 

[cman]

It's impossible.

Nu uh!

Not only would hackers NOT want to pursue such an idea, but the community as a whole wouldn't like it. Items were taken out because of randomness.

They were removed because of randomness, but we could remove the randomness. And who are you to say what the entire community wants? I, for one, would love to be able to play a competative game with items turned on. This would obviously be a lesser priority than the main B+ effort, but to say it won't or can't be done is stupid. Quit being so close-minded.

Having to rely on items takes away from every characters metagame and would give unfair advantage to certain characters. If a match gets down to the higher percents, then the first player to obtain an item is almost guarenteed a win.

No offense, but this is laughably rediculous. You have absolutely no concept of any strategy there is in item matches, and it's obvious. Plus, the items will be balanced so they won't an WTF instant-win aspect of the game.

If items do fall down at certain points, then players are only going to camp out at spawn points and abuse them like heck.

This is pretty silly too. If a player can camp a specific set spawn point, then they are doing a good job controlling space. The other person should be able to pressure them away from the spot. This could potentially add a whole other layer of strategy to the game. It would also discourage ledge stalling.

If the spawn points are kept random, and instead the items can't be interacted with for a second or two after they appear, as I suggest, then a whole different strategy level would be added. The players could choose to give up their control of the space for an immediate reward, pressure the other person as they try to pick it, hit the other away then drop all pressure/edge guarding in exchange for picking up the item, etc.

But I'll humor the question. If we do allow items to spawn at certain points, then how do we find out which items are fair and unfair? Any explosion cannot work because they will detonate if attacked.

The explosions could be worked around by not allowing them to be interacted with for a set time, or the item properties could possibly even be modded so they don't explode on attack.

As for which are fair, the ISP project for Brawl gave a pretty good model for how to evaluate an item's effect on the game.

Items will never work because of their unfair properties that will shift the flow of gameplay left and right. The only item that ever had a chance of making it into competetive play was the Smash Ball, but we all know how that ended.

You have no idea what you are talking about, put bluntly. There is potentially a lot of added strategic depth with fair and balanced item mechanics, and I would love to be able to explore the alternate metagame created by items.

P.S.- Go read up on ISP's solution for smashballs. Basically you are only allowed to activate it once, though you can still break smashballs to prevent your opponent from getting it in exchange for losing your neutral B. If we put a limit like that onto the smashball, it would be a very interesting strategic item.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

It's impossible. Not only would hackers NOT want to pursue such an idea, but the community as a whole wouldn't like it. Items were taken out because of randomness. To make only certain items spawn at certain areas of a stage resembles games such as Halo. Power-ups and guns spawn at certain points in Halo, but are necessary (mostly guns). Items are not a necessary aspect to Smash. They're extra components made to make the game more appealing and fun, not for a competetive community. Having to rely on items takes away from every characters metagame and would give unfair advantage to certain characters. If a match gets down to the higher percents, then the first player to obtain an item is almost guarenteed a win. If items do fall down at certain points, then players are only going to camp out at spawn points and abuse them like heck.

But I'll humor the question. If we do allow items to spawn at certain points, then how do we find out which items are fair and unfair? Any explosion cannot work because they will detonate if attacked. If we have a bomb spawn on the ghosts on Yoshi's stage, then that arouses problems. For instance, if Marth needs to up-B to get on the ghost platform, then he will get hit by the bomb when trying to recover. A stage aspect made to help out players now is working against them. If Isaac were to be used on FD, then avoiding it is troublesome. You can be at low percents and get pushed off the stage, an easy set up for a spike that took little to no effort on the opponents side.

Items will never work because of their unfair properties that will shift the flow of gameplay left and right. The only item that ever had a chance of making it into competetive play was the Smash Ball, but we all know how that ended.

You're thinking about this like will be the standard. If some people want to balance items, let them. No sweat off your back, right?

Don't spawn items near the ledges? Or have them always come out of a party ball in the middle of the stage, as Shadic suggested? Don't make Issac the assist of FD? C'mon, those have already been addressed.

They can shift the flow of gameplay, yes. But isn't that the point of trying to add items? Balancing them is what is important here.


Don't like items myself, but this is a pretty interesting idea. Good luck finding the coders and such though.

 

[Rhubarbo]

It's impossible. Not only would hackers NOT want to pursue such an idea, but the community as a whole wouldn't like it. Items were taken out because of randomness. To make only certain items spawn at certain areas of a stage resembles games such as Halo. Power-ups and guns spawn at certain points in Halo, but are necessary (mostly guns). Items are not a necessary aspect to Smash. They're extra components made to make the game more appealing and fun, not for a competetive community. Having to rely on items takes away from every characters metagame and would give unfair advantage to certain characters. If a match gets down to the higher percents, then the first player to obtain an item is almost guarenteed a win. If items do fall down at certain points, then players are only going to camp out at spawn points and abuse them like heck.

But I'll humor the question. If we do allow items to spawn at certain points, then how do we find out which items are fair and unfair? Any explosion cannot work because they will detonate if attacked. If we have a bomb spawn on the ghosts on Yoshi's stage, then that arouses problems. For instance, if Marth needs to up-B to get on the ghost platform, then he will get hit by the bomb when trying to recover. A stage aspect made to help out players now is working against them. If Isaac were to be used on FD, then avoiding it is troublesome. You can be at low percents and get pushed off the stage, an easy set up for a spike that took little to no effort on the opponents side.

Items will never work because of their unfair properties that will shift the flow of gameplay left and right. The only item that ever had a chance of making it into competetive play was the Smash Ball, but we all know how that ended.

Items may not be a necessary component to Smash, but they are never the less part of it. The character's meta game does indeed change when items are present, but it does not lessen the characters meta game. Rather, the way I suggested items be implemented, each stage's meta game further flourishes. Perhaps only select stages counterpick stages would use items.

To address another point you mentioned; if someone were to camp near an item's spawn point, they would be inevitably left vulnerable to any attack. Brawl+ isn't a camping conducive game.

To determine what items are fair and which ones aren't, playtesting would be required. Jackkieser has a marvelous thread in the Tactical Brawl Discussion I believe that delves deeply into which items are fair and which are broken.

I think you missed the point of my examples. They were merely examples. For Yoshi's Story though, I said Gooey Bombs would spawn. They don't detonate like bomb-ombs. For Final Destination, I said the Isaac AT would spawn seven minutes into the match, way longer than a conventional match should last anyways.

The Smash Ball was never the forerunner for competitive play inclusion. The only reason people contemplated including it a year ago was because of the Hype Noobs that were running rampant on our forums.

 

[Nybb]

Personally, I wouldn't want to try to play with items competitively, even if they were somehow hacked to be more fair. It just changes the focus of the game too much -- games become all about defending that fixed spawn point, or trying to be on the top platform every 30 seconds to get the homerun bat, or whatever.

I just don't think there is a happy medium: either items are too prevalent and change the gameplay too much, or they are made too rare/too ineffectual to make any difference. The first option turns the game into Super Item Bros, something I am not in favour of, while the second...well, why bother?

I wouldn't oppose this if any of the hackers felt like putting time into it after Brawl+ is mostly finished, but it is not something I could see myself enjoying.

 

[Almas]

I am quite interested in this (and have stated it elsewhere). The burden of balancing is somewhat large, though. Essentially, my ideas for the modifications would be:

Items always spawn in 1-2 fixed locations depending on the map.

Items spawn on a fixed timer, at fairly rare intervals (30-60sec).

The code for random items would be rewritten to give each item a specific chance of spawning.

Items would last a very short period of time on the ground - A few seconds, at most. Unless you were there to pick up the item when it spawned, you wouldn't have time to grab it.

Most items would experience significant gimping. I can only think of a handful that would even be considered as acceptable right now.

It would add some luck elements to the game, I won't even bother trying to defend that. It's a conceded point. But I think it adds aspects of positional play, and gives many characters more tools to overcome camping strategies. What better way to foil a planking enemy than a Smart Bomb? By your opponent choosing to ledge camp you are given a clear advantage in retrieving items, making it only a matter of time before you find one you can use to make life annoying for them. It also opens up moments where you have to decide whether to follow your enemy off the edge (to edgeguard them), or grab an item which is about to spawn.

I actually really like the idea that each person can only activate one Smashball per match. It could even be changed based on the character. But I don't think much can be done to make them suitable for real play.

 

[twiblets]

would it be possible to make it so breaking a smash ball increases your knockback or some other character-specific advantage?

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

the prospect of introducing items into competitive play was totally forgotten.

And rightfully so.

 

[metaXzero]

REL38, Nybb, and Seikishidan Soru. This is NOT a thread for bashing or expressing your discotent with items. This is just like the ISP project. If you aren't going to contribute and will only talk about your disliking of items, plz shut up and go elsewhere.

 

[xDD-Master]

I actually really like the idea that each person can only activate one Smashball per match. It could even be changed based on the character. But I don't think much can be done to make them suitable for real play.

D-Pad Right to go into Ultra-Smash Mode (A+B to activate it... I hate it that you cant use your B Move anymore <,<) ... only one time per match <-- Sounds very very cool

@Topic itself (Items): I think it's a good idea, especially for characters that dont have projectiles.

 

[Shaya]

About smash ballls...

I had always hoped there'd be some uncanny option that would follow popular/traditional fighters.
And with implementation would be an astronomical change to the competitive aspect of brawl.

Characters get a bar of some sort that when it reaches 100% gets their super smash.
Super smashes would have to be nerfed, buffed, etc.
How fast a gauge increases would be character dependant
what moves to do such a thing would also occur.

Yes it would be like all so many other fighting games, but I would love it.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

REL38, Nybb, and Seikishidan Soru. This is NOT a thread for bashing or expressing your discotent with items. This is just like the ISP project. If you aren't going to contribute and will only talk about your disliking of items, plz shut up and go elsewhere.

You don't get to tell ME to shut up. No one does.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Well, the number one priority right now is getting an experienced hacker to conjure a code up to control the rate, location, and type of items that spawn.

 

[Arkaether]

Indeed. And I don't see many of those around.

 

[Shadic]

You don't get to tell ME to shut up. No one does.

If you're going to be worthless to the discussion, then yeah, we basically do.

My main problem with Smashballs is that if they're the only item turned on, despite item frequency being on low, you're still going to see a Smashball every thirty seconds or so.

Quadrupling that time or something similar would really balance out that aspect. As arguments for Smashballs went a long time ago - Character's final Smashes are an aspect of character balance.. At least in Sakurai's demonic ways.

 

[Arkaether]

Thus where the hacking comes into play, with set times and set spawn rates.

 

[Flayl]

I was hoping someone would finally get this idea up and running. I tried a thread here some time ago but it got largely ignored. Someday I'll get the patience to learn how to make codes for this. Fact is, because of poor design, a large chunk of what makes smash different from other fighters has to be turned off. If we could balance items we could make pretty much the best party game ever as well as introduce new depths that haven't been explored reasonably by fighters in general.

You have my moral support, and in due time my coding support as well, or so I hope.

By the way, a countdown using the announcer would get annoying fast, the party ball idea sounds much better.

edit: Also I beleive Smash Balls should stay the same (while spawning in neutral locations), but have Final smashes vary in power considering how easy it is for the character to break them.

 

[Alus]

Item drop countdown by itself is a great idea!

 

[Rhubarbo]

Regarding Final Smashes: Instead of the Smash Ball moving around randomly and breaking after a set amount of hits, it should be stationary and instantly break when hit by any non-projectile. Each character's Final Smash would have to be balanced after this too though.

 

[Alus]

I disagree.... I think that you should have to pick up Dragoon pieces (all 3 of course) to have the final smash ability.

and yeah...while some final smashes can be left alone, I think that some should be nerfed.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I'll admit I was too lazy to read all the posts. I'll do it after mine, though. If this were to happen, I feel there would have to be necessary precautions taken to keep items from changing the game too much.

1) Not only decrease knockback, but maybe cut knockback from thrown items out completely, unless the item is meant to be thrown.

2) Reduce speed of fan. Reduce shooting rate of ray gun.

3) Remove hitstun on completely uncharged super scope blast.

4) Cut out explosive items, or give them the knockback of link's/Tlink's bombs.

3) Some items would probably still need to just be cut out:

No hammer
no final smash
no homerun bat (or take out 1-hit KO)
no assist trophies
no pokeballs
no crates
no capsules
no exploding part balls and only one item from a party ball (should that be possible)
no dragoon
no mushrooms
no starman
no curry (or cut out knockback and lower damage rate)
no timer
no lightning
no cracker launcher
no smart bomb (or remove final knockback)
no hothead
no bumper
no unira (or always spiked and can't be picked up)
no franklin badge


That's a long list... Longer than I expected it to be, honestly. Some items are just too unfair or would need to be changed too much to be worth it. But with these cut out, the list of items that would need changing is much more manageable. Still, I don't think anyone would take on this project. If I take the time to learn the coding, I might play with it and see what I come up with, but I have a lot of other projects this summer, so I don't know about that.

 

[metaXzero]

^Who actually gets hit with a Home Run Bat Smash?

 

[cman]

That's a long list... Longer than I expected it to be, honestly. Some items are just too unfair or would need to be changed too much to be worth it. But with these cut out, the list of items that would need changing is much more manageable. Still, I don't think anyone would take on this project. If I take the time to learn the coding, I might play with it and see what I come up with, but I have a lot of other projects this summer, so I don't know about that.

You really need to think a little more before you decide that an item is broken. A lot of the items you names have no problems...

Just to name a few:

• Franklin Badge? Really? Just knock it off the other person or quit projectiling until it wears off.
• Hammers are easy to punish and can be really risky to pick up
• Smartbombs are easy to DI out of
• Explosive items would be great if the explode-on-hit property was removed, although maybe less kb for the bo-omb
• Final smashes can add really interesting depth to the game if you can only activate it once

Most of your list is either not broken or could use just very minor tweaks. There are just some simple changes that could make many items great in tactical play. I think very very few items really have to be thrown out for items to be competitive.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I love final smashes, but as they stand now, some are just too good. With proper tweaking, of course it could be fine.

• I honestly didn't know you could knock off the Franklin Badge. And I can see it being a viable item even if it couldn't.
• At the very least, the random chance of a dud hammer should be taken out. Random risk shouldn't be an issue.
• You're right. Just tested the smart bomb and it is quite easy to DI out of. The final knockback also isn't as high as I remembered.
• The bomb-omb and the mine should probably have their knockback reduced a little bit. I still think it would be fine to give bomb-ombs the knockback of Link's/TLink's bombs and mines the knockback of Snake's mine. Except exploding crates, capsules, and the like. Again, it's just that random should be taken out.

I like the idea of items being made to temporarily give one character the abilities of another player. I think that's what I sort of had in mind when I mentioned the desired changes to some items.

 

[Alus]

You really need to think a little more before you decide that an item is broken. A lot of the items you names have no problems...

Just to name a few:

• Franklin Badge? Really? Just knock it off the other person or quit projectiling until it wears off.

• 
  
  It decides who gets to camp... bad idea... FB needs to go.
  
  Also leave the homerun bat alone...its perfectly fine as it is...
  
  I think that the knockback for throwing items needs to be lessened although.
  
  Nerf the timer...it is a great idea but it needs to be weakened and made more rare.
  
  Lonelytraveler your list is "wtf?"
  
  Take note that the items are not "random" anymore.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I had a few reasons for limiting the list the way I did. If we wanted to keep more items, those would be the ones that would require the most change. Other than changing or eliminating the knockback from a thrown item, very few of the items I didn't list would need any changing at all.

I like the idea of the Franklin Badge taking away an opponent's ability to camp temporarily. The whole point of items is as a temporary enhancement. The FB is by no means gamebreaking. I didn't really give it a chance when I first made that list.

The timer would need some major work. I can't really say what kind. It could be a major nerf, it could be a shorter duration, it could be (were it possible) to increase the speed of your own character rather than slowing the opponent. It might not be plausible to make it a viable item in a competitive scene.

Also, what do you mean that items aren't "random" anymore?

 

[shadowtroop]

Also, you shouldn't be able to throw battering items. It's like a 1HKO.

 

[Arkaether]

Here's a thought. How about, rather than nerfing or removing the timer, we remove the time-slow effect and replace it with massive input lag?