Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[Onxy]

That's exactly what I meant. But I wanted them to take Ivysaur into training mode for just a few minutes and see how the range/speed compare, and tell us, just briefly, how useful they think it would be. Approximately.

It's going to be a lot less useful, but you probably know that.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Most definately. But I think it might help when someone tries to make a rush on you right after Bair, or something.

 

[Onxy]

It should, but someones got to test that in actual combat.

Retro! Get on the lag fest that which is Wifi and let's have an Ivy only! lol.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Nair is too good.

Nair up from the ledge into what is probably their shield, jump again while Nair'n. That's something I've added to my ledge game aside from Fair and other such things.

Just in general, double Nair is a nice thing on shields. I find it pretty easy to land behing the opponents shield with it if you aim for their head.

Oh, and Nair spikes onto the floor of the stage gives what are basically free follow-ups. Nair goes into Bair, Bullet Seed, Nair, and pivot grabs.

So obvious but it hasn't been mentioned yet so...

 

[Miles.]

Nair also has weird priority it beats a lot of stuff.

Nair is combo bread and butter.

 

[Onxy]

Random tactic: Dair is one of Ivy's saving graces when she is stuck in the air. Its hit box is so huge is why.

If you don't pivot grab with Ivy, start doing it. Ivy's biggest weakness is someone being up close to her, and since her grab has a slight start up time, just pivot grab so you don't risk missing it.

 

[Koga]

has anyone noticed how good Ivy's MK matchup is?

now its not slaughter or anything, but Dtilt on the ground out ranges anything MK has and razor leaf can force him to approach you in the air where you have bullet seed or even usmash at high %.

seeing as how Charizard has a fairly even matchup vs MK and how there's potential to improve ivy's matchup, could we see PT rise as a soft counter to MK if we can play around squirtle?

 

[SonicX580]

Does anybody know how much damage Ivysaur complete bullet seed combo does?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

has anyone noticed how good Ivy's MK matchup is?

now its not slaughter or anything, but Dtilt on the ground out ranges anything MK has and razor leaf can force him to approach you in the air where you have bullet seed or even usmash at high %.

seeing as how Charizard has a fairly even matchup vs MK and how there's potential to improve ivy's matchup, could we see PT rise as a soft counter to MK if we can play around squirtle?

Play around squirtle is not very hard, we do it in varius matchups, but anyway i dont think PT vs MK is gonna be better than neutral (and neutral is maybe too much), but its closer to neutral than a lot of other characters
I dont think ivys dtilt outranges MKs dtilt, because that MK outranges even marth with that move, and i dont think ivy outranges marth.
And the damge dealt by bullet seed depends on how fast can the oponent get out of it

 

[Koga]

Play around squirtle is not very hard, we do it in varius matchups, but anyway i dont think PT vs MK is gonna be better than neutral (and neutral is maybe too much), but its closer to neutral than a lot of other characters
I dont think ivys dtilt outranges MKs dtilt, because that MK outranges even marth with that move, and i dont think ivy outranges marth.
And the damge dealt by bullet seed depends on how fast can the oponent get out of it

oh i definately outranges MKs i've been testing it on a move by move basis with my friend here lately (not that its 100% applicable to real games but hey), and while i don't think its necessarily where it needs to be right now, i see a lot of potential in executing vs MK with both Charizard and Ivy. sure now it seems kinda bad, but i see things like Dtilt and a hyphen usmash with charizard that could evolve better applications of techs vs MK in general to improve the matchup, all matchups aren't set in stone so..


as far as bullet seed, its not so much for the damage as preventing the SH dair and following up with a bair or dair.

 

[Onxy]

Ivy's Ftilt will out range the Dtilt, but very slightly. Ivysaur out ranges Marth.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Pivot grab:

Run past your opponent and grab them. This generally gets a lolwut response and they just keep shielding. Obviously, only do this if they have breached your spacing. It actually works a lot.

I would do this with Squirtle as well, but not Charizard.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Koga, i said that bullet seed thing to response sonicX580's post... and i agrre that on the future the matchups may change
And its new to me that ivy outranges both marth and metakngiht, two if the best spacers on the game , this can lead to very interesting spacing game as ivy, btw... then who outranges ivy??

 

[Retro Gaming]

King Dedede.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

We gotta bullet seed him to hell then, MWAHAHAHA

 

[Koga]

King Dedede.

and Ike, and DK's dtilt but its not disjointed so not really

 

[Toby.]

So. Edghogging with the tether. It's good and bad. The main problem is that when you snap on to the edge you only receive about half the invincibility frames. This is because the actual ledge grab animation (which is 100% incinvibility frames) is bypassed.

This means that you should definitely employ speed hugging against opponents with recoveries that linger near the edge for a while. It's either that or time your vine whip so that you are safely above or below the recovery as it attempts to grab the edge.

But anywho. Tether ledge grab = fewer invincibility frames.

Thoughts?

 

[PltnmNgl]

I was watching a Ryko vs Shin Bowser series on youtube and kept noticing the amount of knockback the tips of Ivy's jabs if you don't hold it. If you check out the videos, you'll know what I'm talking about.

1:10 on this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjLFkBLo-qU

1:13 on this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDTSy1kDkUA

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Dude, that was a Dtilt

 

[PltnmNgl]

Really? I could have swore they were jabs. I need to get my eyes checked. Too much youtube. lol...

 

[PkTrainerCris]

LOL, no problem, but make sure your eyes are ok, it was clearly a dtilt for me, and i dont think of myself as a great observer

 

[Steeler]

has anyone noticed how good Ivy's MK matchup is?

now its not slaughter or anything, but Dtilt on the ground out ranges anything MK has and razor leaf can force him to approach you in the air where you have bullet seed or even usmash at high %.

seeing as how Charizard has a fairly even matchup vs MK and how there's potential to improve ivy's matchup, could we see PT rise as a soft counter to MK if we can play around squirtle?

this matchup is slaughter if your feet are not firmly on the ground and don't have a bair out. and that severely limits ivy's options. and ivysaur has a lot of trouble dealing with mach tornado, which is basically just a big **** you to ivy whenever he has some good spacing going.

squirtle is actually okay against meta knight. you'd be surprised at how much squirtle's quickness helps here. it's still a disadvantage, maybe even 65:35, but squirtle is definitely not helpless here. and he isn't murdered in the air like ivysaur is. ivysaur is seriously in danger of being 0% deathed by a really good MK.

edgehogging with tether is ridiculously good against ike btw. like...go out there and kind of bair gimp or something. that will usually make the ike have to aether really low when ike gets past and when he aethers..........vine whip for the ko. vine whipping from afar is also nice against people like donkey kong. basically opponents who usually NEED that edge to be open to recover sometimes, because for one reason or another, their recovery move can't get them directly on stage. tether from afar is a much safer option because you won't get hit by aether or spinning kong, and not that hard to pull off if you carefully jump out and sort of put yourself in a good position for it.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Steeler, i agree with you on ivy doing bad against MK, but he has his grab to take care of the tornado, and Dair saves Ivy of some aerial ****
Squirtle does OK, and im starting to think he has an advantage on the air, but charizard does the best in this matchup IMO

 

[PltnmNgl]

this matchup is slaughter if your feet are not firmly on the ground and don't have a bair out. and that severely limits ivy's options.

On this note, how often do you guys jump?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

As squirtle, always, almost never as ivy, and for zard specially short hop flamethrowers and rocksmashes, and of course edgeguarding

 

[Retro Gaming]

With Ivysaur I actually jump quite a bit, but the majority of the time it is a SHFF'd aerial. I jump the least with Charizard, I think.

 

[Pichu Sensei]

When my opponent is at low %. I try to keep my feet planted on the ground as much as possible. They tend to try and air combo me at the beginning so I'd use what little DI ivy has to get a nair spike and bullet seed. Other than that I bair and leaf barrage them until I can position some smashes. Once they're up in %, I start to dash grab and get them in the air. So I can start tether smackin', bulb explodin, air vine whippin, and some nice positioned smashes to await them on the ground.

 

[Steeler]

definitely keep ivy on the ground the vast majority of the time vs mk, unless you are spacing with a bair. ivy's dashgrab and pivot grab are useful.

honestly, just try to use ivysaur as infrequently as possible. both squirtle and charizard match up better than the majority of the cast.

 

[3xSwords]

Steeler, i agree with you on ivy doing bad against MK, but he has his grab to take care of the tornado, and Dair saves Ivy of some aerial ****
Squirtle does OK, and im starting to think he has an advantage on the air, but charizard does the best in this matchup IMO

For Ivy grabbing only works if the MK doesn't nado properly. Usually they will nado at head level meaning your grab will most likely miss them because they are above it.

Charizard does pretty badly too, because he is so big and MK's quick disjointed hitboxes just **** yours. IMO squirrtle has the best of the three due to quickness and aerial DI, and being able to match MK in terms of speed, while not being a huge target or gimp target at the same time.

 

[Aveean]

I always work best with Squirtle against MK. His quick and good control in the air and his lack of predictability on the ground can keep me at a safe distance most of the time, but MK is still hard nonetheless.

 

[infernovia]

For Ivy grabbing only works if the MK doesn't nado properly. Usually they will nado at head level meaning your grab will most likely miss them because they are above it.

Charizard does pretty badly too, because he is so big and MK's quick disjointed hitboxes just **** yours. IMO squirrtle has the best of the three due to quickness and aerial DI, and being able to match MK in terms of speed, while not being a huge target or gimp target at the same time.

Charizard doesn't do THAT bad. He has enough scare tactics to push meta out of range. I don't think Charizard does bad enough to get a 70:30. Squirtle does do better though.

 

[3xSwords]

No he doesn't. Charizard if you can scare him you have a better chance of winning however this won't happen most likely, and if the MK isn't scared then your scrwd. In fact zard should be the one scared as **** in this matchup.

Edit: Also the reason why Ivy's dtilt isn't better than Marth's or MK's, is that although it may have better range it is slower and does NOT have IASA frames, which is present in Marth's and MK's. IASA frames make a move safer on the block.

I've recently played some PT, and with Ivy I have a question about the jab. Once I initiate the second jab it seems to do a normal jab and then automatically go into her rapid jab for like 2 hits, after the second one. Technically does that mean Ivy has 2 jabs > rapid jabs, or just one jab > rapid jab. Anyway, the good thing about this second jab is that it seems you have minimum post lag after the 2 rapid jabs. Possible followups? ftilt, dtilt, grab, d-smash or jab?

 

[DUB]

The f-tilt is a good follow up after pretty much anything.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

What 3xswords is interesting, it can be a really good tactic to get a grab because its not hard to hit with ivys jab ( the hard part is stop it in the perfect timing)it could also lead into a bullet seed(not sure) and i think Fsmash is a better follow up than dsmash in this case.
On the metaknight discussion, charizard does have his tools to compete with metaknight (ggod range, some fast attacks, grab range, flametrhower, etc...) but those only work on the ground , if charizard is on the air he is gonna get hurt badly, which doesnt apply to squirtle

 

[Steeler]

yeah, charizard gets hurt in the air, but not nearly to ivysaur's extent, thanks to faster horizontal air movement than meta, more weight, rock smash (mainly because its faster than ivy's fair), and better recovery. i cannot count how many times fly SA has saved me from a dair gimp. the thing is that, like ivy, dair is zard's only option underneath. uair ***** zard at low percents. don't let it happen.

like ivysaur, zard wants to keep mk grounded. flamethrower stops everything mk has that isn't tornado...but don't get predictable with it, and make sure to use it when mk is dashing into range or short hopping, or is vulnerable somehow. if mk sees ft coming, you'll just get tornado'd. btw, i prefer using rock smash to break the tornado, although ftilt and bair are also options. rs sometimes won't work, but just work on the spacing and timing for it. idk if zard can grab mk out of tornado due to the way zard lunges to grab, thus extending its hitbox.

don't get down smashed and zard should live to nice percents.

zard also kills mk well. dtilt/utilt/ftilt/usmash/rock smash/throws anyone? ivy does not have nearly that many options. fair is ivy's best, safest kill move that isn't a throw, and an auto-canceled fair is PUNISHABLE by mk thanks to his dash speed and dash grab. and as everyone knows, all of ivy's other kill moves are pretty punishable, even against characters that aren't mk.

however, uthrow kills consistently at like 150%. definitely a life saver from about 120% on to switch or kill.

seriously...don't use ivysaur in this matchup. its worse than rob.

 

[3xSwords]

For Ivy's jab > follow up. No timing is needed. Just do it as if you were doing only 2 jabs in any other 3 jab combo. The 2-3 (not sure how many) rapid jabs will automatically follow the second normal jab and then after that you have free follow up. As said it is a perfect grabbing opportunity for Ivy.

Does anybody want to describe the ideal Ivy playstyle? What I got from reading about say 5 pages of this thread was camp as well as you can, then if they show an opening, rushdown with bair and look for more damage opportunities there. That and don't get gimped .

 

[PkTrainerCris]

What i mean with timing is knowing when to stop it instead of let the vinerushing going over and over, because you have to stop it before you want it to stop, and as you said, im not sure neither wich jab is it.. maybe i used wrong the "timing" word
Ideal playstile for ivy is hitting as much as you can without being hit, which is not that hard because of razor leaf and her ranged moves, and if the oponent is close to you use your star close range attacks like short hopped nair, jab(maybe), and of course bullet seed.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Does anyone do this?

WHen you use Ivysaur's Bair, you fast-fall directly down with the control stick and you hit the C-stick at a diagonally down angle to produce a Bair? Ivysaur falls very quickly and ends up only doing one of the Bair hits. The lag is just about the same as regularly fast-falling, as far as I can tell.

• Damage output is even worse.
• Less punishable on block

I think it might also be easier to link an attack to single-hit Bair, but I'm really bad at controling any character, so I haven't been able to test this in a match very often yet.

This is helpful for Squirtle as well. If you do it with Charizard's Bair only the spiking portion of the move will hit (on stage).

 

[Onxy]

I'd rather use Ivysaur against MK than Charizard. Charizard is large, out-ranged, and slower. Ivy does have a worse recovery, but who cares? It's not like you are going to do good OoS with Charizard anyway.

I love how it went 55.45 against ROB, to a 60, to a 65. to a hard countering 70. I can see what ROB has over Ivysaur, but a hard counter? *shakes head*

 

[Toby.]

Excellent off stage game vs very poor recovery

Powerful, fast, lingering projectiles that can be aimed/charged vs razor leaf

More damaging, almost equally ranged ground options, vs a 2% ftilt (if we are spacing to avoid his attacks)

Heavy weight vs below average ko ability.

fire based moves vs weakness to fire.

bullet seed vs large enemy.

Hm. I don't think hard counter is so ridiculous onxy. What more does he need? A 0-death combo or somesuch?