Kansas City Area Brawl Thread

[MJG]

I'd actually reverse that logic. 1 hard read with IC's is enough to single handedly win the game. 1 hard read with IC's equals 1 stock. Normal, on stage reads by characters like metaknight, diddy, etc. won't usually add up to nearly that much. I don't know how much people actually think about it in game, but reads happen all the time and a lot of the time, it's subconscious. Long story short, it deals with your weakness in reading by stretching the value of your reads to a stock with a proper chaingrab.

Damn that is so true.

I hate Ice Climbers.

 

[HondaFoo]

I want to main Ice Climbers

 

[quote]

Getting kind of late. Is there any chance at all of someone hosting? The sooner the better.

EDIT: ^^ Lol.

Frankly, Honda, there are a lot of players that would if we could. If you think melee is big on technical skill, IC's in this game is the most technically complicated character in the series's history. You have to know the timing and spacing for three different grabs on more than thirty characters. Plus you need to know the timings for the charged smash attack for the finish. Then comes the many methods and uses for desyncing which I can't even begin to understand let alone list.

God, the next game in the series needs to drop about 15-20 characters. One of the reasons I hate brawl is that there are way too many matchups to practice. And they should do it by dumping the lower tiers and not nerfing the upper ones. I hate seeing falcon way at the bottom.

/rant

 

[Rockstar]

Lux you try to hard when arguing. Your somewhat over-reacting. I didnt say "I will **** you with ease. I`m gonna destroy you with Ness. I`ll annihilate your a**." I just cant remember that incident.

If you want to MM that badly, then I don`t have a problem with it. But you should calm down, no offense dude.

 

[DeLux]

The problem with this is that you are trying to provide evidence for an argument (play high tier characters or that Ness isn't his best option), not debunking an existing argument. The example doesn't directly clash with anything Rockstar said so I don't understand how it could be a counterexample because it doesn't counter any of the claims made. In this regard, the argument is weak because Wario vs. Ness is one of 30+ matchups for ness. This would likely mean that that you need to present matchup specific examples on ten or more for it all to line up. I have no doubt you can do this by providing a link to the Ness matchup thread. But just one example isn't enough.

If you're doing value debate, which this clearly is, the value with the most support is superior argument. It's standard debate theory. I wil continue to maintain, IF he VALUES winning, then the superior value criterion would be to main a higher tier character. If we extended the merits of each character in a flow chart via LD debate, Ness would lose to most characters.

If we're arguing in a binary "Does Ness have a good spacing fair?" Then your point stands. We aren't. We're looking at the debate from the scope of the value of winning. I just said one counter example proves an argument unsound to refute you saying example argument is bad. It isn't. But it had nothing to do with the debate outlined above.

I'd actually reverse that logic. 1 hard read with IC's is enough to single handedly win the game. 1 hard read with IC's equals 1 stock. Normal, on stage reads by characters like metaknight, diddy, etc. won't usually add up to nearly that much. I don't know how much people actually think about it in game, but reads happen all the time and a lot of the time, it's subconscious. Long story short, it deals with your weakness in reading by stretching the value of your reads to a stock with a proper chaingrab.

One hard read against an IC player loses Nana which then makes the character unviable. If you don't see that or can't do that, then you either aren't good at the match up or play a bad character for the matchup. It doesn't make hard reading easier. It makes it more important on both ends. Higher risk higher reward situations. And if you're bad at said high risk high reward situations, you're playing into the character weakenss.

Except for TL - he's good at the matchup but he exists outside the spectrum of that hard read stuff

Lux you try to hard when arguing. Your somewhat over-reacting. I didnt say "I will **** you with ease. I`m gonna destroy you with Ness. I`ll annihilate your a**." I just cant remember that incident.

If you want to MM that badly, then I don`t have a problem with it. But you should calm down, no offense dude.

I didn't say anything of that sort either. I'm not overreacting and I don't really want to money match. I'm just trying to illustrate the point that I have a very simple game plan I can follow to win despite getting ridiculously outplayed. Which is the whole reason why I'm saying that Ness is going to be hard if the ultimate value is Winning.

It isn't any specific match. It's just the typical general match flow that we go through when we play the two characters. If you said, "My ness is more skilled than your Wario," I would agree without question. But if/when I win, it's purely out of abusing the tier problems your character has at a disadvantage to mine.

I mean, don't take it personally. I'm just giving you advice. You're mistaking me being right with "arguing hard".

I want to main Ice Climbers

I'll teach you if you want.

 

[Rockstar]

Itd be awesome if someone could host tomorrow from 3-6? I definently could come if so

 

[MJG]

What is with the minor drama? LOL.

Ya'll need to chill over this child's game.

 

[BPx]

So No Koast is a double day tournament, so I might not be able to do that. When is the next single day tournament? Anyone going to it?

Joker's, this weekend.

 

[Rockstar]

Is anyone going to Joker`s? I`d carpool if you`d like

Hmm... now that you mentioned it. Lux i`ll money match your Wario for 20 dollars?

 

[DeLux]

Ness vs. Wario. Universal Stage List. Bo3 or Bo5? LGL?

I'm going to accept regardless. Just want to know ahead of time.

Brawl don't lie. I'll add in a bonus to make it worth your while: If you win, along with the $20, you will never hear me tell you to pick a higher tier character ever again.

We can do it on Saturday if you're going to come out to the Lawrence thing.

 

[quote]

If you're doing value debate, which this clearly is, the value with the most support is superior argument. It's standard debate theory. I wil continue to maintain, IF he VALUES winning, then the superior value criterion would be to main a higher tier character. If we extended the merits of each character in a flow chart via LD debate, Ness would lose to most characters.

If we're arguing in a binary "Does Ness have a good spacing fair?" Then your point stands. We aren't. We're looking at the debate from the scope of the value of winning. I just said one counter example proves an argument unsound to refute you saying example argument is bad. It isn't. But it had nothing to do with the debate outlined above.

First of all this is not even a debate about values. It's a debate how strong an argument is.

What I'm saying is that the example of Ness having problems with Wario in an example is a less powerful argument than something like this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11964758&postcount=2892.

Either way, there needs to be a strong argument to say that Ness is unusable. We've only been in contact with him for a month and a half. I'm pretty sure that Fino, MJ, Stealth, and you need more than one bad matchup in order to change your main. and that's more or less what example is suggesting. It's significance isn't going to outweigh the impact of having to learn a new character. strong reasons will be provided.

One hard read against an IC player loses Nana which then makes the character unviable. If you don't see that or can't do that, then you either aren't good at the match up or play a bad character for the matchup. It doesn't make hard reading easier. It makes it more important on both ends. Higher risk higher reward situations. And if you're bad at said high risk high reward situations, you're playing into the character weakenss.

Except for TL - he's good at the matchup but he exists outside the spectrum of that hard read stuff

I don't know how much time you spend playing/watching N64, but I'm a Captain falcon main. He grabs you at zero, and you're done. He has easy 0-deaths on every character in that game, most of which start from a grab, or a bizzare setup. And his recovery in that game is easily equal, or more likely, worse than popo's individually. I speak from a decent amount of experience so that I can say that the potential in IC's grab game, although extremely difficult to set up, takes care of the aforementioned weakness. I have a lot of similar problems in having difficulty reading. Unfortunately for me, I can't really play IC's on a competitive level so I'm stuck finding a different main.

I mean, don't take it personally. I'm just giving you advice. You're mistaking me being right with "arguing hard".

Don't go off on me if I'm wrong but we are arguing for recreation, right? If not, I'll stop.

 

[quote]

TL:DR of below. Ness is an extremely poor choice for a main in the area because of the people playing in Kansas and the bad character matchups, and likeliness that they happen.

Looking at the top contenders in Kansas. I guarantee you will have to beat a few of these characters to place decently. There are

3 Metaknights
2 Snakes
1 Diddy Kong
1 Ice Climbers
1 Olimar
1 Pikachu
1 Toon link
1 Game and Watch
1 Fox
1 Wolf
2 Ike's

in the top 15 in the KPR.

This is what your matchup schedule looks like:

Metaknight 40-severe disadvantage
Snake 40-severe disadvantage
Diddy Kong 45-disadvantage
Ice Climbers 45-disadvantage
Olimar 55-advantage
Pikachu 50-neutral
Toon Link 40-severe disadvantage
Game and Watch 40-severe disadvantage
Fox 60-strong advantage
Wolf 45-disadvantage
Ike 55-advantage

According the the statistical data compiled you will only have an edge against Mr. doom, Zeton, Fino, and Snivey by playing Ness. The last two both have you at a severe disadvantage after moving to secondaries. You basically don't have a hope in hell of winning a major tournament in this area with him. You will have to fight hard and get lucky to place decently. This is only the top 15 in Kansas of a recorded 56. So starting off, you have more than a 1/4 chance of playing one of these guys first round. That probability increases to a strong degree over time.

Sources:
The Official Kansas Power Rankings
01-06-2011 at 11:43 AM
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283700

PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
05-09-2010
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188116


Lux this is what I mean by strong argument. An example pales in comparison to this.

 

[DeLux]

All you are doing is supplying contentions to a value criterion. Since the value criterion supersedes said contentions, I don't see how it's a stronger form of argument. If you're saying that I didn't back up said value criterion with enough evidence, I was under the impression it was pretty self explanitory based on Ness's position on the tier chart.

Essentially, all you're doing is providing regional EXAMPLES and citing a thread as support that admits it's not up to date. I provided an empircal one that he could relate to on first hand basis. I'm not arguing with the information provided or method of analysis. They are simply contentions that are ALL examples.

 

[MJG]

Toon Link Wrecks ness

 

[Stealth Raptor]

WTF guys stop wall of texting my threadddddd. valid points on all sides, let rockstar do what he want, he will change if he feels like it.

also there isnt much true technical skill in brawl, its all in the buffer

^trufax

also no way in HELL is 40:60 severe disadvantage


and i get ninjad by my gay lover

 

[DeLux]

also there isnt much true technical skill in brawl, its all in the buffer

Some of the stuff I do regularly for IC's beg to differ.

But aside from that, again we're going to do the Brawl don't Lie policy.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

the brief moments of technicality in brawl does not even compared to the string of inputs required for even a mid level melee match. i will give you a few things in brawl are more technically precise then even melee, but the overall skill required is no contest

 

[MJG]

Brawl is such a bad game. I was going to pick up melee when ArkiveZero quit but I never gave myself enough time to practice it and now I regret it .

I still enjoy watching melee though but brawl is so bad imo.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i agree, and yet here we are, still playing :D

 

[DeLux]

I can't watch melee. It hurts my stomach. Makes me want to puke ><

 

[quote]

WTF guys stop wall of texting my threadddddd. valid points on all sides, let rockstar do what he want, he will change if he feels like it.

also there isnt much true technical skill in brawl, its all in the buffer

^trufax

also no way in HELL is 40:60 severe disadvantage


and i get ninjad by my gay lover

When everything is 40-60 in the worst case scenario 40-60 is a severe disadvantage. In the whole compilation. There were 5 deviations: 40, 45, 50, 55, and 60.

support for this:

Toon Link Wrecks ness

 

[Stealth Raptor]

eh some people have silly matchup ratios. does that mean the best advantage vs mk should be termed heavy advantage? so like the diddys of the world have a HEAVY ADVANTAGE when at BEST its neutral? 40-60 is a counter but still easily winnable by both sides. 35-65 is a hard matchup, and 30-70 is a true hard counter, where the one on the lower end has to vastly outdo his opponent to win, or should consider picking up a secondary for the matchup. hence why i am considering samus for marth LOL. also a lot of people following this thread

 

[Mr. Doom]

Snivy saw that you guys mentioned that Ike-Ness is 55-45 Ness. And this is what he said...

"How in tarnation does Ness have an advantage over Ike? EXPLAIN that to me. NOW.

I shall jab you to Kingdom Come and back if you want to MM me."

 

[quote]

Snivy saw that you guys mentioned that Ike-Ness is 55-45 Ness. And this is what he said...

"How in tarnation does Ness have an advantage over Ike? EXPLAIN that to me. NOW.

I shall jab you to Kingdom Come and back if you want to MM me."

Potential explainations first you are Mr. Doom/Snivey and an extremely good player ,breaking the wall of statistics. Second of all that thread is out of date so there will be adjustments that could be made. I put a date up on that for a reason.

EDIT: 11-01-2008, 05:52 PM This was the last recorded time Ike was discussed in that thread.

I can't watch melee. It hurts my stomach. Makes me want to puke ><

Somebody that doesn't play melee should sig this. It would be completely out of context though.

All you are doing is supplying contentions to a value criterion. Since the value criterion supersedes said contentions, I don't see how it's a stronger form of argument. If you're saying that I didn't back up said value criterion with enough evidence, I was under the impression it was pretty self explanitory based on Ness's position on the tier chart.

Essentially, all you're doing is providing regional EXAMPLES and citing a thread as support that admits it's not up to date. I provided an empircal one that he could relate to on first hand basis. I'm not arguing with the information provided or method of analysis. They are simply contentions that are ALL examples.

The reason examples are bad is that they don't do a good job representing the whole field of analysis. A metagame analysis, which my evidence is, covers the relevant field. The out of date thing is more than likely irrelevant. I don't think many of Ness's matchups will change often.

 

[Rockstar]

Jesus christ this is ridiculous. I cant believe you guys have the time to debate this game to the point where you have 5 paragragh replies.

Quote. You should go to Lawrence this saturday with Lux, Psi-Kick and I.

Lux how about this. We do a best 2/3 or 3/5 set, on fd, battlefield, yoshi`s island, and smashville. Ill record every match if your ok with it, and get them on youtube. Sound alright?

 

[DeLux]

The reason examples are bad is that they don't do a good job representing the whole field of analysis. A metagame analysis, which my evidence is, covers the relevant field. The out of date thing is more than likely irrelevant. I don't think many of Ness's matchups will change often.

They don't need to represent the whole field of analysis. I'm not playing the affirmation. I'm playing the negation. Not only does providing counter examples meet the burden of clash, it also inherently offered an alternative counter value and therefore alternative counter resolution.

If you seperate each "relevant field" analysis into what it is, aka a list of match ups, then it breaks down into numerous examples. Which is, I stated previously, means that you're just doing additional examples and then telling me examples are bad. Examples aren't a bad form of argument. Granted more examples are better, but at the core it's just a list of examples.

Any symbolic logic class or even debate and persuasion theory class would agree =\

Lux how about this. We do a best 2/3 or 3/5 set, on fd, battlefield, yoshi`s island, and smashville. Ill record every match if your ok with it, and get them on youtube. Sound alright?

Why would I a best of 5 set where you are essentially counter picking the levels? Why are we not doing it standard tournament style where we strike levels from the starter list, each have one ban from the universal stage list, and then counter pick to conclusion? You are eliminating all 5 of my character's best levels for no reason.

Kind of arbitrary, but it's fine because I won't be needing those cp's anways.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

wtf guys i think fino is typing on lux's account. that sounds so ****ing much like fino, dunno if thats good or bad. also when looking at matchups its best to look at both boards and average the matchups, as both boards tend to have inherent bias. ike boards say it is 55-45 in their favor, so i would average it out to be a straight 50-50 neutral, though i am SLIGHTLY more inclined to agree with the ike boards

 

[quote]

Jesus christ this is ridiculous. I cant believe you guys have the time to debate this game to the point where you have 5 paragragh replies.

Quote. You should go to Lawrence this saturday with Lux, Psi-Kick and I.

Lux how about this. We do a best 2/3 or 3/5 set, on fd, battlefield, yoshi`s island, and smashville. Ill record every match if your ok with it, and get them on youtube. Sound alright?

I was already planning on doing that. Unless someone magically appears with a free ride to OK then I'll be there.

By the way. I need recordings too.

Also don't do best out of X. If you want results for finding out whether or not it's a good matchup or bad one for you , you should get the standard of deviation down to at least ten percent (ten matches) preferable against multiple people if the option is there. Counterpicks should be touched on. Two or three recordings should be enough. The rest is overkill. You don't need more than that for critiques.

 

[Rockstar]

Haha Stealth I couldnt agree with you anymore.

Lux alright so your down for the terms I stated?

 

[DeLux]

He wants to record the money match for some reason. I don't think it has anything to do with matchup data.


@Danny - I'm just approaching it like I used to when I debated. Concede nothing. Advance your ideas. Especially in this case where I feel that I'm right. Flowchart wins it.

@ Rockstar - You didn't answer my questions.

 

[Mr. Doom]

Brings back memories.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

OMG thanks doom ive been looking for that image for a long time

 

[Mr. Doom]

[collapse="Stealth, you know better."]

[/collapse]

...afk....

 

[Domo123]

all ima say is 90 percent of the brawl community sucks at the game. Melee is good. Melty blood and ggac are at the top. Mm me I suck. Domo the ghost signing off

 

[Stealth Raptor]

random domo sighting! i really need to take a weekend off and hang down to wichita just to hang out :/ o wait thats no koast XD

 

[Rockstar]

Lux my bad. What were the questions?

 

[Mr. Doom]

all ima say is 90 percent of the brawl community sucks at the game. Melee is good. Melty blood and ggac are at the top. Mm me I suck. Domo the ghost signing off

10% of the brawl community is good because they're in the BBR. Get wrecked, all of you, including Snivy.

BTW, take Domo's word. He isn't good, so it's essentially free money for you.

 

[DeLux]

Why would I a best of 5 set where you are essentially counter picking the levels? Why are we not doing it standard tournament style where we strike levels from the starter list, each have one ban from the universal stage list, and then counter pick to conclusion?

 

[quote]

They don't need to represent the whole field of analysis. I'm not playing the affirmation. I'm playing the negation. Not only does providing counter examples meet the burden of clash, it also inherently offered an alternative counter value and therefore alternative counter resolution.

If you seperate each "relevant field" analysis into what it is, aka a list of match ups, then it breaks down into numerous examples. Which is, I stated previously, means that you're just doing additional examples and then telling me examples are bad. Examples aren't a bad form of argument. Granted more examples are better, but at the core it's just a list of examples.

Any symbolic logic class or even debate and persuasion theory class would agree =\



Why would I a best of 5 set where you are essentially counter picking the levels? Why are we not doing it standard tournament style where we strike levels from the starter list, each have one ban from the universal stage list, and then counter pick to conclusion? You are eliminating all 5 of my character's best levels for no reason.

Kind of arbitrary, but it's fine because I won't be needing those cp's anways.

You are playing aff in regards to changing rockstars main with this reasoning

Status quo = Rockstar is maining Ness
If you are changing this you are aff.

I'm running a counterplan saying that this is a better way to argue/convince him to drop ness and attacking your significance of your original argument, saying that one example of a bad matchup isn't enough to justify a character change.

An analysis is incomplete without all of the sample data. Individual pieces (separated examples) aren't representative of the whole because there will always be outliers in sets of data. The only way to deal with these deviations and still represent the normal ones is to look at things in their entirety. A metagame analysis can't be broken down because of that.

 

[MJG]

He wants to record the money match for some reason. I don't think it has anything to do with matchup data.


@Danny - I'm just approaching it like I used to when I debated. Concede nothing. Advance your ideas. Especially in this case where I feel that I'm right. Flowchart wins it.

@ Rockstar - You didn't answer my questions.

I wasn't convinced until I saw this post. That is sad that you have nothing better to do with your life LOL.