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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*
- Thread starter JayBee
- Start date
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
if you do it from far away, it can throw them off, but dont try it from up close. theres way too much lag to use the timing throwoff to your advantage from short range, because theres a visual cue that you arent going to spin, and the only thing you can do after that, is charge the spin again
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
The time between the visual cue that you arent going to release a spin, and when you can actuallydo another move is just too great
JayBee
Smash Champion
A single charged SC can be cancelled about one character's length away from one side of FD to the other. that said, there is not a reason to believe you can use this in some sort of mind game, because so much room is required. From what I've seen, unless you are at one edge of FD, you will fall off the other side due to lack of road, unless you turn.
1. no.
2. yes. Hills slow you down considerably more, so if you were on the pendulum platform on RC, facing up, or doing a single charge SD to the tilted platform on Yoshi's Island, you can shield cancel relatively earlier, assuming that you hit your opponent (shielding or whatever) as you're going up the hill..
Now what I'm interested in/want testing on atm is a 'sudden turn' effect upon hitting an opponent at the edge of a platform. I've fluked and performed it once in a match - I hit someone off the edge using spin charge, and immediately went in the opposite direction. Like... if you compare how immediate a dashdance pivot is to a normal fulldash pivot, that's basically what happened.
I kinda put it on the back seat for a while, but I pulled it off in a more recent game, so there might be something to it `.`;
messiahfreak2000
Smash Apprentice
this would be sweet if it can be replicated consistently.
JayBee
Smash Champion
been working on Foxtrot and Pivot Moves and I've got some inspiration again...
Update on progress: So, I've started to work moe on my stutter stepping game more often, as my approach game is pretty well developed, as is my comboing game, and the gimping mostly.
ive seen some threads trying to reinvent it, so I've been trying to work on it.
I think that I may have found a nice style based on it that will let me tech chase horribly well, and zone even better.
I've been able to consistantly RAR a fair after a bair in the same direction for a while, and I have incorperated that. but now, I am trying the following:
Spin Zoning: a combination of the Sonic's foxtrot/"dashdance" turnaround techniques in conjunction with the Dash A, and the pivot grab. It is a thoery that states that Sonic can zone and bait moves by basically performing Sonic's foxtrot/"dashdance" turnaround outside of opponents range, then quickly imputing [Tap forward] + [C-stick Down] for the instant Dash A, or slide into a pivot grab as a possbile mixup. Sonic can cancel into sideB> cancel at anytime, allowing for furthur mixups.
I made up the name just now, but im positive that you all have done something similar to this for a while. Im just giving it a name to solidify it. now, my freind and I on Saturday will hopefully work hard on footage that we can later edit so you guys can finally have something to show you guys, then just me typing things.
I really hope i make something magic outta this one, Tenki.
Update on progress: So, I've started to work moe on my stutter stepping game more often, as my approach game is pretty well developed, as is my comboing game, and the gimping mostly.
ive seen some threads trying to reinvent it, so I've been trying to work on it.
I think that I may have found a nice style based on it that will let me tech chase horribly well, and zone even better.
I've been able to consistantly RAR a fair after a bair in the same direction for a while, and I have incorperated that. but now, I am trying the following:
Spin Zoning: a combination of the Sonic's foxtrot/"dashdance" turnaround techniques in conjunction with the Dash A, and the pivot grab. It is a thoery that states that Sonic can zone and bait moves by basically performing Sonic's foxtrot/"dashdance" turnaround outside of opponents range, then quickly imputing [Tap forward] + [C-stick Down] for the instant Dash A, or slide into a pivot grab as a possbile mixup. Sonic can cancel into sideB> cancel at anytime, allowing for furthur mixups.
I made up the name just now, but im positive that you all have done something similar to this for a while. Im just giving it a name to solidify it. now, my freind and I on Saturday will hopefully work hard on footage that we can later edit so you guys can finally have something to show you guys, then just me typing things.
I really hope i make something magic outta this one, Tenki.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Wait...what?
Are you saying he can cancel his SC into a shield while he's on the ground if he's going slow enough?
Yeah.
If you're on flat ground, it takes forever if you only hit one person (i think someone mentioned elsewhere, like 3/4 of FD), but it's more useful if you're going up an incline.
for example, if you use a low charge iSDR (invincible SDR) from the edge of pictochat or yoshi's island and destroy 1-2 of Snake's grenades/landmines, you'll eventually move slow enough to shield cancel the roll.
If you're on flat ground, it takes forever if you only hit one person (i think someone mentioned elsewhere, like 3/4 of FD), but it's more useful if you're going up an incline.
for example, if you use a low charge iSDR (invincible SDR) from the edge of pictochat or yoshi's island and destroy 1-2 of Snake's grenades/landmines, you'll eventually move slow enough to shield cancel the roll.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^That's really cool. Though now that I think about it, it doesn't seem that usefull.
what'd be really interesting to note would be frame data for Sonic to move from some point to another from full dash.
Like, frame data to get to arrow # __ from the edge of final destination.
That way, we can like... well, I have ulterior motives.
Like, frame data to get to arrow # __ from the edge of final destination.
That way, we can like... well, I have ulterior motives.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Thats happened to you too?
Holy crap I thought I was seeing things though I did it away from the edge.
Its happened only once but I am interested in seeing if it can be done consistently.
It might have something to do with the turning of the spin since i think it has a hitbox just as it begins to turn. Like a frame or two.
JayBee
Smash Champion
yeah, but like stated, it would be very situational, and stage dependant. sigh.
And on a side note, although its not brawl, I have some fun vids of me (kojin) playing Soul calibur 4. It was late, so we didnt' even get to brawl. jeez.
Kojin (IVY) vs DTG (RAPH)
C-Note (CER) vs Kojin(IVY)
and this one was stupid at the end
C-Note (CER) vs DTG (ALG)
enjoy
And on a side note, although its not brawl, I have some fun vids of me (kojin) playing Soul calibur 4. It was late, so we didnt' even get to brawl. jeez.
Kojin (IVY) vs DTG (RAPH)
C-Note (CER) vs Kojin(IVY)
and this one was stupid at the end
C-Note (CER) vs DTG (ALG)
enjoy
Napilopez
Smash Lord
I need to work onthis whole dashdance pivot thingy. I haven;t gotten it to work right, but then again I haven't given it the most practice recently.
How many options do you have to break off the foxtrot into an fsmash? is it only at the end of each foxtrot, or is it an invinite number of breakoffpoints, as if you were doing a dash attack?
How many options do you have to break off the foxtrot into an fsmash? is it only at the end of each foxtrot, or is it an invinite number of breakoffpoints, as if you were doing a dash attack?
Only at the end of each foxtrot.
Technically, it's at the beginning of each foxtrot/initial dash (so dashdance counts too), but yeah, the 'points' you can do it are linked together at the end of each successive foxtrot.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Ahh, thats what I thought, thanx
JayBee
Smash Champion
So Far, I the practice I had with the foxtrot pivot and there are clever mind games with it. It also improves sonic's abilty to punish from a furthur distance, as I have found out yesterrday against my friends. This is an example of some of my theories and whether I found out if worked or not :
1: Sonic can foxtrot away from an anticipated attack, then foxtrot pivot back to them to punish. Viable
2: Sonic can Foxtrot away from an opponent, then Foxtrot pivot into an Instant Dash Attack towards them. Viable.
3: Once the opponent is conditioned to certain movements, use the Foxtrot Pivot outside of thier range to mindgame a reverse pivot grab. Possible, but is conditional. needs more testing to perfect.
Maybe I'll post a vid of me practicing the movements and trying to expand on it. It is a bit interesting, and i can't wait for me to add this to my game completely.
1: Sonic can foxtrot away from an anticipated attack, then foxtrot pivot back to them to punish. Viable
2: Sonic can Foxtrot away from an opponent, then Foxtrot pivot into an Instant Dash Attack towards them. Viable.
3: Once the opponent is conditioned to certain movements, use the Foxtrot Pivot outside of thier range to mindgame a reverse pivot grab. Possible, but is conditional. needs more testing to perfect.
Maybe I'll post a vid of me practicing the movements and trying to expand on it. It is a bit interesting, and i can't wait for me to add this to my game completely.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
what are the invicibility frames on up b side b and up smash?
WE NEEEEEDDDDD TO KNOOWWWWWW
WE NEEEEEDDDDD TO KNOOWWWWWW
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
and what happened with sonic at 1:11 in this vid, it looks like he picked up a banana out of a roll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRo...539312344&index=2&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL
and what he does at 3:52 is sexy as all hell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRo...539312344&index=2&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL
and what he does at 3:52 is sexy as all hell
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
would be coolif his spincharge killed bananas
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Yeah, he can split giant robots in half with a simple spin dash, but he slips on bananas...terrible...
DarkDefeater
Smash Apprentice
Not to mention that he can't go through Peach's turnips either. I know that the characters need to be balanced, (Snake and Meta Knight, HA!) but Sonic is a lot weaker, specially his spindash, than he should be.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Some stuff I tested in Frederiskcburg this Saturday. I wanted to share it with you 
Haha they should beef up that spin since he relies on it soooo much.
Testing the DDP part 2:
9/27/08
"So far, as I went to fredericksburg for freindlies, when I was patient, (key word patient) Sonic and his DDP (Dashdance pivot) worked very well. I didn't try to use it all the time I was on the ground though, but I think that's how its' supposed to be used, I baited alot of movement in this manner, and was able to back off and counter attack pretty well. I tried the Fsmash and the reverse Dash A out of it with success, and mixed it with a canceled side B to change it up. I also foxtrotted into a side B after baiting my opponent and I got a free small aerial combo out of it the majority of the time.
I also been using it in training mode to see if I could mindgame a reverse grab out of D throw, and now I had a chance to try it on human players. I had to show some Dash A attacks to make them block on wake up more, but I managed to in corperate it in one match against a Wolf player. this was afer I attmpeted this idea at least 5 times over the course of the evening. I didn't want to overdo it, and i think that was the key to it working in the end.
Overall, the experience has led me to see benefits that can enhance my sonic game to another level, and I've begun more training soley on incorperating that aspect to my ground game. I feel as if i've only found the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, and when I'm even more comfortable, I want to tell my comrades on the Kojin thread a more detailed analyisis of the usage of DDP, not just how to do it (which it seems like most of them know already)"
EDIT: by the way, I found some tenki vidoes on youtube. about time I saw some.
Haha they should beef up that spin since he relies on it soooo much.
Testing the DDP part 2:
9/27/08
"So far, as I went to fredericksburg for freindlies, when I was patient, (key word patient) Sonic and his DDP (Dashdance pivot) worked very well. I didn't try to use it all the time I was on the ground though, but I think that's how its' supposed to be used, I baited alot of movement in this manner, and was able to back off and counter attack pretty well. I tried the Fsmash and the reverse Dash A out of it with success, and mixed it with a canceled side B to change it up. I also foxtrotted into a side B after baiting my opponent and I got a free small aerial combo out of it the majority of the time.
I also been using it in training mode to see if I could mindgame a reverse grab out of D throw, and now I had a chance to try it on human players. I had to show some Dash A attacks to make them block on wake up more, but I managed to in corperate it in one match against a Wolf player. this was afer I attmpeted this idea at least 5 times over the course of the evening. I didn't want to overdo it, and i think that was the key to it working in the end.
Overall, the experience has led me to see benefits that can enhance my sonic game to another level, and I've begun more training soley on incorperating that aspect to my ground game. I feel as if i've only found the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, and when I'm even more comfortable, I want to tell my comrades on the Kojin thread a more detailed analyisis of the usage of DDP, not just how to do it (which it seems like most of them know already)"
EDIT: by the way, I found some tenki vidoes on youtube. about time I saw some.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
are you sure cause when you watch it the game makes the sound effect of an item being picked up
also, rolls completely ignore bananas when they are on the ground, its only when they are thrown that they overpower spins
darkNES386
Smash Lord
I find more and more that the retreat foxtrot-pivot to grab or any attack works really well. I tried watching my most recent online uploaded matches (done by someone else not myself, to my surprise) and it was right around when I had started experimenting with it. So you really don't see me use it a lot. Against Diddy... online... it's tough to react with a spin-dash-shield cancel so I didn't use it as much as I did the other day against a Marth I play regularly.
Some other stuff:
I've found some success when I started mixing up Spin Jumps with just spinning past shielded opponents:
Old dNES Sonic: I spin into opponent's shield and spin jump instantly.
Effect: Sometimes successfully jump canceling into an attack (most likely bair) or I find myself being predicted and either the attack is avoided easily or the player jumps and hits me first (usually case with smarter/more aggressive opponents).
New dNES Sonic: Instead of always Spin Jumping instantly, I will now sometimes roll a little further past my opponent and then turn around and approach again. This has proven to actually hit which then can be followed with spin jump combos. I fear that this is because I am online and my opponent has less time to react.
The fact remains that this usually keeps me in a more neutral position. My opponent has most likely dropped their shield and now I'm spinning back towards them. I can spin jump now or go in for a second approach.
Does anyone else mix up this or do they also find themselves always jumping up even if the opponent shielded successfully?
Another question:
A low percentages when someone is attempting to rack up damage on you with tilts... which attack is the best option? You can usually spring out of the situation. I want to know if you find more success with nair or uair for example. My natural tendency since melee was always to use the nair-sex kick with just about any character I played as. Sonic's dair has wayyy to much startup lag so at low percentages it's really a bad idea. His bair has startup lag too and hitbox isn't as centered as nair, but the uair really is what I want to focus on. Is it the best attack option? You would want to have tilt jump off or be using the c-stick to execute the uair otherwise you'll probably be moving upwards too much and the hitbox won't reach. The uair also will have very little landing lag, given the current situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEm9gV7E5lo
^there's 6 of these, I've played diddys with better nanner control then this one. Just showing you guys my most recent stuff.
Discuss.
Some other stuff:
I've found some success when I started mixing up Spin Jumps with just spinning past shielded opponents:
Old dNES Sonic: I spin into opponent's shield and spin jump instantly.
Effect: Sometimes successfully jump canceling into an attack (most likely bair) or I find myself being predicted and either the attack is avoided easily or the player jumps and hits me first (usually case with smarter/more aggressive opponents).
New dNES Sonic: Instead of always Spin Jumping instantly, I will now sometimes roll a little further past my opponent and then turn around and approach again. This has proven to actually hit which then can be followed with spin jump combos. I fear that this is because I am online and my opponent has less time to react.
The fact remains that this usually keeps me in a more neutral position. My opponent has most likely dropped their shield and now I'm spinning back towards them. I can spin jump now or go in for a second approach.
Does anyone else mix up this or do they also find themselves always jumping up even if the opponent shielded successfully?
Another question:
A low percentages when someone is attempting to rack up damage on you with tilts... which attack is the best option? You can usually spring out of the situation. I want to know if you find more success with nair or uair for example. My natural tendency since melee was always to use the nair-sex kick with just about any character I played as. Sonic's dair has wayyy to much startup lag so at low percentages it's really a bad idea. His bair has startup lag too and hitbox isn't as centered as nair, but the uair really is what I want to focus on. Is it the best attack option? You would want to have tilt jump off or be using the c-stick to execute the uair otherwise you'll probably be moving upwards too much and the hitbox won't reach. The uair also will have very little landing lag, given the current situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEm9gV7E5lo
^there's 6 of these, I've played diddys with better nanner control then this one. Just showing you guys my most recent stuff.
Discuss.
JayBee
Smash Champion
1: the pivot retreat strat really seems to help sonic, We just need someone to master it. and vid it for us to see. but I'm pretty good at doing it on command. I perfer not to do all the time though. at least not yet.
2: Interesting. I had to think about this one because i tend to instinctively spring jump. because of Sonic and his lack of priority, trying to plow through tilts when comboes by it probably isn't a good idea, i know that sometimes nair can get thorugh simply because of the sheer startup time, but other than that, i dunno, id prpbably spirng to be safe.
On the side note, you can on low percents, connect with a falling nair to restun the opponent after hitting them with a fair or in some cases a uair, for the same reasons. I tend to do this sometimes and it works often. I also try nair when I just want them to block something, but I try to do it so I land behind them, or get under them first, so that I could get a possible Up tilt in. its a bit conditional, so try it out to see if you like it.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Yeah, so I woke up this morning and the Steak thread died. mustv'e been that metaknight virus that's going about in the Sonic boards recently. (y'know what i mean) or not. In anycase, we still have the spread the word of Steakology, and you guys can do it here. because it amuses me. just dont get my thread closed.
By the way, steak flavored milkshakes, as much as i like steak, is a horrible idea. A protien shake, that happeed to be steak-flavored, I can accept and makes more sence. no, wait, it doesn't, but still...
I've got this training thing I do for the DDP (dashdance pivot, and its working well. First, I start off by changing the music settings so that I only hear the SFX. that is so I can get the most out of my audio cues, which would be the sound sonic makes when he stutter steps, which i then input the motions for DDP. Then I slow it down in training mode to 1/4 speed, and warm up there. then I speed it up gradually as my mind becomes more familiar with the visual cues that Sonic gives me to DDP. Also in this way, I can get more familiar with the actual button tapping without feeling rushed. By the time I'm at 1X, I am ready to practice in a more realistic setting.
This is simple psychology people. I take the most information from my visual, auditory cues in this way, and create a rythem in for my mind to process and condense the technical information (tap foraward, tap forward, then back quickly) into something my mind cn more easily encode and process into Long Term Memory. If you havent treid this, then try it, you should see improvement regardless of your primary learning type.
i am also in the process of lreaning every character in brawl. i feel this will help me in more accuretly seeing the matchups for what they are, and its something fun to do.
I have for the most part learned
Metaknight
Pika
Wolf
D3
Kirby
Rob
Liugi
Sonic (duh)
Pit (mines is spammy. I dunt car)
Working on:
Samus
Need to refresh with
Snake
Falco
I Need to play with/against good
ZZS
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Mario
I am used to matchups against
Falco
Mateknight
D3
Pit
GaW
Ice Climbers
Toon Link
DK
Ness
Lucus
Gannon
Note that Matchups i am used to means that I have a solid understading of thier capabilities, not meaning that I **** them though, that is on the player's skill level.
Yeah, I am making work for myself. I dunt car. So if you want to help me, if we play online or offline, play me with your best character, or at least a character I won't be ready for. thx.
That is all.
By the way, steak flavored milkshakes, as much as i like steak, is a horrible idea. A protien shake, that happeed to be steak-flavored, I can accept and makes more sence. no, wait, it doesn't, but still...
I've got this training thing I do for the DDP (dashdance pivot, and its working well. First, I start off by changing the music settings so that I only hear the SFX. that is so I can get the most out of my audio cues, which would be the sound sonic makes when he stutter steps, which i then input the motions for DDP. Then I slow it down in training mode to 1/4 speed, and warm up there. then I speed it up gradually as my mind becomes more familiar with the visual cues that Sonic gives me to DDP. Also in this way, I can get more familiar with the actual button tapping without feeling rushed. By the time I'm at 1X, I am ready to practice in a more realistic setting.
This is simple psychology people. I take the most information from my visual, auditory cues in this way, and create a rythem in for my mind to process and condense the technical information (tap foraward, tap forward, then back quickly) into something my mind cn more easily encode and process into Long Term Memory. If you havent treid this, then try it, you should see improvement regardless of your primary learning type.
i am also in the process of lreaning every character in brawl. i feel this will help me in more accuretly seeing the matchups for what they are, and its something fun to do.
I have for the most part learned
Metaknight
Pika
Wolf
D3
Kirby
Rob
Liugi
Sonic (duh)
Pit (mines is spammy. I dunt car)
Working on:
Samus
Need to refresh with
Snake
Falco
I Need to play with/against good
ZZS
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Mario
I am used to matchups against
Falco
Mateknight
D3
Pit
GaW
Ice Climbers
Toon Link
DK
Ness
Lucus
Gannon
Note that Matchups i am used to means that I have a solid understading of thier capabilities, not meaning that I **** them though, that is on the player's skill level.
Yeah, I am making work for myself. I dunt car. So if you want to help me, if we play online or offline, play me with your best character, or at least a character I won't be ready for. thx.
That is all.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
I likey, tis all scientifical and stuff.
JayBee
Smash Champion
that was quick. thx.
but yeah, I tend to go that route. I probably will work on Samus and Diddy next. I played Rob for a while now. I got the basic idea.
Just a request to meta-haters: if you make a sig, use my sig in some way as reference. it is cool to do so, and you will be automatically entered for a chance to win .... you guessed it, STEAK!
This is the original image
but yeah, I tend to go that route. I probably will work on Samus and Diddy next. I played Rob for a while now. I got the basic idea.
Just a request to meta-haters: if you make a sig, use my sig in some way as reference. it is cool to do so, and you will be automatically entered for a chance to win .... you guessed it, STEAK!
This is the original image
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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- Lincolnshire, England.
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I want a really kiddy faux-badly made sig, featuring the characters I use (Captain Hyrule, Sonic, Ike, ZSS, Steak) with childish words on, because I'm rather ******** like that.
JayBee
Smash Champion
good for you!!! 
Napilopez
Smash Lord
I would make a sig referring to yours, but I actually like faceing MK alot, and thus don't want him banned =P
JayBee
Smash Champion
Oh okay, but just in case, the link is right there. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight over there.
I need to test my connection a bit later to see if I can play online matches with u guys. Anyone game?
I need to test my connection a bit later to see if I can play online matches with u guys. Anyone game?
darkNES386
Smash Lord
I'm game for a couple matches... try and reach me on AIM or allisbrawl channel... that works best.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
Just wanted to say something about spacing, and shield cancels.
It seems that since I realized sonic only takes a second to cross FD, I've been thinking alot more about spacing. I think Sonic can benifit tremendously from appropriate range spacing, depending on who you are playing. Stay just outside their range, then run in and punish when you can, and take control from there. The typical range for a char is no more than an 8th of fd. Thats like 7 frames for sonic to cross. If you think about it, sonic doesn't even have to travel that full distance because you can just shield a bit before you cross the entire distance, and sonic will slide into place for a grab. Know your opponents range, and space accordingly. You can punish either during startup lag, or during cooldown lag.
Speaking of shielding, a note on shield cancelling dashes and Shield cancelling SideBs.
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the slide on both of them. Shield cancelling a dash yields a slide in the direction of your momentum as you shield, while shield cancelling a SideB leaves you standing completely still, a short distance ahead of where you initiated the SideB. it gives you an instantaneous little "push" from where you inputted the sideB.
Now I'm trying to think of the implications of this, but can't really think of much. All I can think of is that when you use SideB cancel, it much more like all up in your face, because of the mindgames from the SideB charging sound, as well as the fact that it isn't a smoot animation, and thus harder for your opponent to process. Also, it does have slightly more reach(from where you initiated the button input, not the grab itself). The problem with the SideB cancel though, is that there is a tiny window of vulnerability form when you input the SideB to when you input the shield, while simply shield cancelling a dash leaves you protected virtually immediately. Altho that might just be my timing being sloppy when I input a SideB shield cancel.
I find that because SideB cancelling doesn't give you that slide, it helps you control spacing more precisely. It totally kills your running momentum. Not to mention that it can be done from a foxtrot.
I suppose one situation where it would be advantageous to go with a Shield cancelled dash is if you need to slide into a long ranged attack. I don't know if this actually works, but lets say DKs dtilt. You run towards him, powershielding from a dash. If you tried a SideB cancel, because of DKs range, you might have been hit out of it during the aforementioned vulnerability period. If you shield cancel a run, however, you will slide towards DK slightly from the position at which you powershield, putting in you in the right spot to grab your opponent. Again, I'm not sure if it works for ths particular example, but you get the idea.
One last thing. There are some times I want to shield cancel from foxtrot distance, but don't want to you sideB cancel. Well, I realized that you won't have the problem of foxtrot lag, if you never let go of the control stick, and input a shield while holding forward. The tendency when wanting to shield cancel from foxtrot distance is that the person will simply input a foxtrot by smashing or tapping forward once, and then try to shield cancel, resulting in a laggy running grab.
What you can do instead, is simply hold forward not let go, and simply press your shield button as you hold forward, to immediately cancel your dash, wherever and whenever you want. No lag, and no vulnerability that the SideB cancel has.
Try it, I think you might find it to come very much in handy.
What do you guys think?
EDIT:
This is already at tl:dr status, but an interesting kill set-up that I never saw or can recall anyone ever mentioneing before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq2cUFR0T2k
Only interested in the last 10 seconds, although it is a very interesting match. Thanks, anthinus.
its simple, yet it seems pretty smart and at first glance looks risky, but i actually think can be pretty safe.
Anthinus dash attacks the Snake, KITO. Dash attack is pretty darn easy to land. It pops snake up oh so little, and Anthi uses a grounded spring immediately afterwards, making snake have no choice but to bounce up with sonic, leaving the snake surprised, and therefore vulnerable. This is good, because no matter who you're playing, and no matter what percantages, you and your opponent will always travel the same height, making the kill more consistant. And you caThe only issue is if your opponent Uses a Uair , but I don't think its a major issue, its just how an opponent might attack you /airdodgeout of the traditional uthrow to spring+uair.
This doesnt necesarily have to be out of an dash attack either, you can do it right before an opponent lands on the ground, or watever. I can image doing it on an Fair spamming marth =P
It seems that since I realized sonic only takes a second to cross FD, I've been thinking alot more about spacing. I think Sonic can benifit tremendously from appropriate range spacing, depending on who you are playing. Stay just outside their range, then run in and punish when you can, and take control from there. The typical range for a char is no more than an 8th of fd. Thats like 7 frames for sonic to cross. If you think about it, sonic doesn't even have to travel that full distance because you can just shield a bit before you cross the entire distance, and sonic will slide into place for a grab. Know your opponents range, and space accordingly. You can punish either during startup lag, or during cooldown lag.
Speaking of shielding, a note on shield cancelling dashes and Shield cancelling SideBs.
One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is the slide on both of them. Shield cancelling a dash yields a slide in the direction of your momentum as you shield, while shield cancelling a SideB leaves you standing completely still, a short distance ahead of where you initiated the SideB. it gives you an instantaneous little "push" from where you inputted the sideB.
Now I'm trying to think of the implications of this, but can't really think of much. All I can think of is that when you use SideB cancel, it much more like all up in your face, because of the mindgames from the SideB charging sound, as well as the fact that it isn't a smoot animation, and thus harder for your opponent to process. Also, it does have slightly more reach(from where you initiated the button input, not the grab itself). The problem with the SideB cancel though, is that there is a tiny window of vulnerability form when you input the SideB to when you input the shield, while simply shield cancelling a dash leaves you protected virtually immediately. Altho that might just be my timing being sloppy when I input a SideB shield cancel.
I find that because SideB cancelling doesn't give you that slide, it helps you control spacing more precisely. It totally kills your running momentum. Not to mention that it can be done from a foxtrot.
I suppose one situation where it would be advantageous to go with a Shield cancelled dash is if you need to slide into a long ranged attack. I don't know if this actually works, but lets say DKs dtilt. You run towards him, powershielding from a dash. If you tried a SideB cancel, because of DKs range, you might have been hit out of it during the aforementioned vulnerability period. If you shield cancel a run, however, you will slide towards DK slightly from the position at which you powershield, putting in you in the right spot to grab your opponent. Again, I'm not sure if it works for ths particular example, but you get the idea.
One last thing. There are some times I want to shield cancel from foxtrot distance, but don't want to you sideB cancel. Well, I realized that you won't have the problem of foxtrot lag, if you never let go of the control stick, and input a shield while holding forward. The tendency when wanting to shield cancel from foxtrot distance is that the person will simply input a foxtrot by smashing or tapping forward once, and then try to shield cancel, resulting in a laggy running grab.
What you can do instead, is simply hold forward not let go, and simply press your shield button as you hold forward, to immediately cancel your dash, wherever and whenever you want. No lag, and no vulnerability that the SideB cancel has.
Try it, I think you might find it to come very much in handy.
What do you guys think?
EDIT:
This is already at tl:dr status, but an interesting kill set-up that I never saw or can recall anyone ever mentioneing before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq2cUFR0T2k
Only interested in the last 10 seconds, although it is a very interesting match. Thanks, anthinus.
its simple, yet it seems pretty smart and at first glance looks risky, but i actually think can be pretty safe.
Anthinus dash attacks the Snake, KITO. Dash attack is pretty darn easy to land. It pops snake up oh so little, and Anthi uses a grounded spring immediately afterwards, making snake have no choice but to bounce up with sonic, leaving the snake surprised, and therefore vulnerable. This is good, because no matter who you're playing, and no matter what percantages, you and your opponent will always travel the same height, making the kill more consistant. And you caThe only issue is if your opponent Uses a Uair , but I don't think its a major issue, its just how an opponent might attack you /airdodgeout of the traditional uthrow to spring+uair.
This doesnt necesarily have to be out of an dash attack either, you can do it right before an opponent lands on the ground, or watever. I can image doing it on an Fair spamming marth =P
darkNES386
Smash Lord
I believe I've seen this specific sonic before use this move out of dash attacks and I always felt it was very situational. I didn't like the idea of missing and having myself launched up into the air while my opponent is on the ground with the advantage. I do however like the idea of using it as someone attempts to land back on the ground. We should probably look into this more as we've never really had any extensive discussions/testing on it (to my knowledge).