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Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

Napilopez

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I believe I've seen this specific sonic before use this move out of dash attacks and I always felt it was very situational. I didn't like the idea of missing and having myself launched up into the air while my opponent is on the ground with the advantage. I do however like the idea of using it as someone attempts to land back on the ground. We should probably look into this more as we've never really had any extensive discussions/testing on it (to my knowledge).
I dunno, I think it would be pretty safe to do it out of a dash attack so long as you notice your opponent hasn't DId unfavorably. But yea I agree, we should look into it more.

Still curious on opinions about Dash cancelling vs sideB cancelling.
 

Tenki

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I believe I've seen this specific sonic before use this move out of dash attacks and I always felt it was very situational. I didn't like the idea of missing and having myself launched up into the air while my opponent is on the ground with the advantage. I do however like the idea of using it as someone attempts to land back on the ground. We should probably look into this more as we've never really had any extensive discussions/testing on it (to my knowledge).
I used to use that pretty often (invincyframes > opponent land on spring)

If you do it, it's definitely a better idea to use spring before, and not at the same time as your opponent, because your opponent can attack as soon as they bounce, so you wanna have some 'free time' to get out of the 'rising' state and be able to attack/airdodge accordingly.
 

JayBee

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uploading friendlies vids today. We practice with each other often, so I like to test stuff with him to see if it works, because not only is he pretty decent, he's had a LOT of experience with my Sonic in particular, so i it makes successful ideas even more valid against those inexperienced against the Blue Blur.

Enjoy them, with steak. Comment, if you must, just not with your mouth full. That's rude.

as ROB
--------
vs Ness
Kojin (ROB) vs C-Note (NESS) 1
vs Pit
Kojin (ROB) vs C-Note (Pit)

as SONIC
----------
vs Ness
Kojin (Sonic) vs C-Note (Ness)
Kojin (Sonic) vs C-Note (Ness)2
Kojin (Sonic) vs C-Note (Ness)3
Kojin (Sonic) vs C-Note (Ness)4
vs DK
Kojin (Sonic) vs C-Note (DK)

Only the Sonic vids will be on the front page though
 

darkNES386

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^Nice Sonic

I used to use that pretty often (invincyframes > opponent land on spring)

If you do it, it's definitely a better idea to use spring before, and not at the same time as your opponent, because your opponent can attack as soon as they bounce, so you wanna have some 'free time' to get out of the 'rising' state and be able to attack/airdodge accordingly.
Yes, the other day when I played I found that early is much better than later. A Samus punished me with a bair before I could do anything after springing up with them at the same time.
 

JayBee

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He blocked it, which pushed me away enough for me to fall off. It happened fast though, so it looks like I slid off.
 

JayBee

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GFSC - Grounded Foot Stool Comboing for Sonic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWiQTh63_XU

If you didn't know about this, then now you know.
My friend Calvin (aka godismyrock) showed this to me today, and we had a discussion on it for a while. As a result, I'm gonna test this and try to apply it to Sonic as much as I can. wish me luck

check the video first as it gives a thourough explanation. It is disgusting with DK, and I'm probably gonna learn him now to get a better understanding of him (even though i am experienced enough against him)

I thought of things off the top of my head, you can test too if you want, and if you can post vids showing it. I plan to do so as well.


Will test:
GFS>Falling Nair>grab
GFS>Bair>Fair
GFS>ASC (2 hits)cancel>Utilt>Aerial
GFS>uair
GFS>spring (why do it in a real match? idk)

hopefully I will have positive results to tell you about. I'll post soon.
 

Tenki

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GFS doesn't give enough hitstun for a fastfall aerial. It might give enough for a D-air, but that's iffy.

aerial footstool (especially out of things like side-B/ASC) is more useful for Sonic.

Think of Ganondorf's side-B.
 

JayBee

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GFS doesn't give enough hitstun for a fastfall aerial. It might give enough for a D-air, but that's iffy.

aerial footstool (especially out of things like side-B/ASC) is more useful for Sonic.

Think of Ganondorf's side-B.
Thanks for the heads up Tenki.
I'm Sry MChains, I had this name since 2K2, i don't wanna change it, and how did you get confused, I say that I'm Kojin on the first page of the thread. Are you talking about the vids?

EDIT: First impressions on Sonic's "GFSJ"

Sonic can only utilize a Dair or an UpB immediately after a GFSJ. I tested this multiple times on training mode and to verify that it was inescapeable, I started off by initiating trippeing via Dtilt. Dtilt(Trip)>GFSJ>Dair is indeed true and counts as a 2 hit combo in training mode, meaning that the Dair if done right is unblockable. I also got better at tripping with my Dtilt, or at least understood the distance better.

I also practiced my aerial Footstool combos while I was at it.
BTW, if you AFSJ and time the Spring and Dair distance correctly, you can create a combo that looks like this:

sideB>AFSJ>UpB>Dair (cancelled)>Fair>Fair

The second fair is in red because it is not garentedd due to % and DI. but basically you can space the Spring and your dair so that the spring will hit him, and your lag cancelled dair will connect right after, resulting in a 2 hit combo that restuns and send the opponent upwards in front of you. then you can immediately follow with an aerial, (recommened Fair or Uair.) This was also tested and the blue part registered as a combo as well.

Edit: I should have said this before concerning the limits of this setup. this is simply an extention of the normal AFSJ setup, so consider the percentage you attempt it, because you need to AFSJ them, right? I will try to plug in actual numbers for that, and a vid.
 

aeghrur

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Kojin, do you know what happened with that other sonic's u-smash going off? Think it could be the same thing? =O
 

JayBee

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If you are talking about that DK vs Sonic vid, what happened was that he simply blocked my Hyphen smash, and due to my forward movement and him powershileding (i think that's what it was) the attack, I simply slid off the ledge due to knockback. That's all.
 

Tenki

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Ay Kojin, what % was that combo done?

There's a range where the spring will 'jab' the opponent, jablock style (which is where the spring jablock combo comes into play). Then there's a range where the spring puts the opponent in a 'whaargharbl" state (think Dedede d-throw, or Sonic D-tilt tipper), and then another % range where it just knocks the opponent upwards.

Off topic: also, lol i'm glad you got the title shortened. laborotory was bothering me, because it's laboratory.

and my real reason for posting here:

How many of you actually use side-B invincibility frames?
 

Napilopez

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Ay Kojin, what % was that combo done?

Then there's a range where the spring puts the opponent in a 'whaargharbl" state.

.......................................................

and my real reason for posting here:

How many of you actually use side-B invincibility frames?
"whaargharbl" made me lol.

........................................................

Why do you ask? I use it tons, especially against characters with charge up projectiles. I will also use it to break through some approaches and attacks. (Dancing blade for example, if spaced correctly).
 

JayBee

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I'll recheck after I get back from class today.

I dont abuse the side B frames enough, sadly. I guess i shoudl work on that along with powershileding so I can punish with GFS>Dair. Itz niice.
 

Napilopez

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This is kind of separate from the current discussion, but I figured this would be the best place to ask.

What is the best way to unstale moves with Sonic? Currently I just start spamming dash attack and a couple of jabs/tilts perhaps, because they are so easy to land but is there a better or safer way? I know for example that marth can use Dancing blade to unstale every move except for itself, which is pretty awesome.

Do Sonic's multihit moves unstale other moves more rapidly than single hit moves? I'm not sure if they work like Marth Dancing Blade, because that move has many "parts to it". It would be awesome if Usmash unstaled other moves, as it would give it much more purpose.
 

JayBee

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This is kind of separate from the current discussion, but I figured this would be the best place to ask.

What is the best way to unstale moves with Sonic? Currently I just start spamming dash attack and a couple of jabs/tilts perhaps, because they are so easy to land but is there a better or safer way? I know for example that marth can use Dancing blade to unstale every move except for itself, which is pretty awesome.

Do Sonic's multihit moves unstale other moves more rapidly than single hit moves? I'm not sure if they work like Marth Dancing Blade, because that move has many "parts to it". It would be awesome if Usmash unstaled other moves, as it would give it much more purpose.

I don't have any numbers for you, and I don't expect you to always keep track of the number of times you use certain moves, so let me tell you what i do and see how u like it.

To start off, I play a pretty balanced Sonic in terms of move usage, I use them all, the problem is that, those many moves will be stale over time, albeit not as much of a degree as a sonic that loves Bair and FSmash often. The way I solved this issue, is that I made a conscious decision in my training to use a move that I don't min using over and over again, and not mind it becoming stale. For me, the decision was relatively easy: fair.

My main purpose in fair is to extend combos, and punish, and overall just to rack damage here and there. my reasonic was, that if I am smart with my fair, even when stale, not only can I take advantage of its stale moves. Stales moves not only decrease attack power, but knockback, increasing the chance of me using multiple fairs successfully. This will also negate some of eh stale from my moves. This, added to the fact that I use not only all of my moves, but I pummel often when I grab (which also unstales), I have effectively created a "filter system" that unstales moves to the point where I dont really think about it.


So, the number one move I like to use to unstale is fair, followed by pummel from a grab attempt. I don't know if this helps you, but that's how I deal with the stale moves in my mind.

Edit: now that I think about it, I use side B with out regard to its stale ness sometimes, I really dont depend on it to kill on its own, and It has mixups to keep me safe, so maybe that will help you as well.

Edit: I thought about it, and now I really use the side B too. I dont try to kill with it by itself , so yeah...
 

JayBee

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Practiced The grounded Foot Stool Jump combo for sonic, and tried to find as much as can for it, but the only thing you can do is a Dair after it. Now, if the Boxcancelled tech is true for the Dair then maybe we have something cool.

Also, I cant seem to figure out that Up smash cancel thing I've talked about in another thread. I don't know what to do, this doesn't look like something I can control at all. please tell me someone else is having an easier time...
 

aeghrur

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Boxcanceled isn't L-canceled. :(
It's just using a VSDJ after an attack and right before you hit the ground so it's a little easier to string stuff together.
 

JayBee

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wat? oh, then Boxy didn't find anything new at all. I've known about that for a good while, just didn't think to post it. gay. Btw, it is much easier to string aerials this way, like fairs.
 

aeghrur

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You needa make a vid with this Kojin, cuz no one else has one. :O Besides, I never see anyone do it. :(
 

JayBee

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I'll tell you what: if people post thier Wii code as well as thier friend code (which many already do) then I can simply make simple vids of techs and stuff and you can get them directly. I want Boxob to do this espeically, and Tenki if he doesn't mind. right now, I'm sifting through some vids and trying to weed oout what I may want to use in a potential combo vid, but I have none using the tech, so I'll have to try this week.
 

Napilopez

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This is kinda random, but i think this Matchup Lab is a good place to post things similar to what I intended to do with my old "Sonic tips" thread.

Anyways, one thing I like to do against my opponents regarding tech chases, is that at the beginning of a match, when I'm in an advantage of percentage, I'll use a couple of pummels and dthrows, without any real followups, to get an idea of my opponents teching patterns. Most people tend to stick to one or two kinds of get-ups/techs. Once I have an idea of this, I will capitalize appropriately. I was playing someone on the AiB ladder yesterday, and I noticed he had a tendeancy to do a roll get-up(is there a better term for this?), back in the direction of where I was standing. So, it went like this.

I pummel>dthrow. Opponents lands, and as a get-up rolls back up forward, so that he is standing right infront of me again, and I regrab. Pummel some more, then dthrow again. Opponent does the same thing lol. But this time im waiting with a charged fsmash instead, and shazam whalam, he gets sawnic punched =P.

Also, I just thought I would reiterate Boxob's idea of chaining bthrows. Its much too good, as opponents don't normally DI out of a bthrow, they only DI out of uthrows lol.

Now I'm thinking about tech-chasing, because sonic really has some of the most awesoem tech-chases IMO, just because he's that fast. I'm wondering if there is a way to increase the accuracy of my tech chases. I know that its dependant of what my opponent does, but if I can increase my rate of success it would be awesome. Opponents who roll backwards are really easy to tech chase, and if they roll forward, just regrab. But what about someone who really mixes teching, getup attacks, and getup rolls? I'm trying to see if there is a standard model I guess a Sonic can follow. If your opponent is unpredictable, I was wondering if the best option would be running a bit forward, to wait and see what your opponent will do, and then proceed to punish.

For example, you use dthrow, and then you run forward. As you see your opponent rolling backward to get up, you can keep on running and then regrab. Now lets say you dthrow, runforward, and your opponent decides to roll up forward? Then you can cancel your run with either a pivot grab or a SideB reversal into a shield or just attack with the sideB if you would like(Jab lock setup ftw?). If your opponent does a getup attack, you can just shield cancel the run or whatever. Not so sure about what to do if your opponent techs, but if he or she does, then I think its quick enough for you to not have done into your run yet.

Bleh that was very convoluted, but hopefully you get an idea of what I'm getting at. My tech chase game has become way better recently.

It would be interesting to get frame data for how much of a window, your opponent has to escape.

Now some questions:
Does sonic has any good grab release stuffies? I haven't ever really tried anything like that.

Finally, does anyone have any good follow-ups/uses for fthrow? I barely ever use it, and am wondering if it might be helpful to incorporate it into my game, if at least for unstaling other throws.
 

SonicX580

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Hi I'am new here I don't know if everybody knows this sonic techinque... if you can't stop a downward dair you use a homing attack to cancel it and it be better if there was a opponent near by so what do you think about this technique?
 

JayBee

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As of right now, other than reading your opponents, the best AT to capitolize on Dthrows is for the most part the Dash dance pivot. It gives Sonic more flexibility in his ability to change directions, which gives him a better chance of tech chasing ability and Okizeme. stutter stepping is also key, and should be mastered before learning DDP, which is an extended version of said move.


F throw doesn't really have any given setups afterward, you have to read your opponent. If you dont really use it, then it can help in the mindgame department, I may use it, then empty jump in front of them to provoke a responce the punish, or Hyphen Smash once i think it has a good chance of working. But you must "learn to player" first. To reiterate, I once F throw a Lucario, run under and UpB. it worked that time, but that's because he didn't expect that. miiiiiiiiiiiindgaaaaaaaamesssssssss...

if you pummel until realease, know that they can shield before you, meaning you really cant get a free hit outta it. you have to either do it over the edge for a gimp attempt, or mindgame something. "learn to player" again.
 

Tenki

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convolution.

Bleh that was very convoluted, but hopefully you get an idea of what I'm getting at. My tech chase game has become way better recently.

It would be interesting to get frame data for how much of a window, your opponent has to escape.

Now some questions:
Does sonic has any good grab release stuffies? I haven't ever really tried anything like that.

Finally, does anyone have any good follow-ups/uses for fthrow? I barely ever use it, and am wondering if it might be helpful to incorporate it into my game, if at least for unstaling other throws.
@convolution:
Your opponents don't DI upwards and airdodge before they land do they D:

@grabrelease:
I like grabrelease > standing d-tilt > (regrab/attack)

but it's best at the edge.

Like,
pummel release > (opponent double jumps immediately) > airgrab + pummel release > (opponent gets gimped not being able to double jump, or starts an up-B so you can go for stage spike)

or pummel release > (opponent double jumps immediately) > F-smash.

Hi I'am new here I don't know if everybody knows this sonic techinque... if you can't stop a downward dair you use a homing attack to cancel it and it be better if there was a opponent near bye so what do you think about this technique?
It sounds kind of useless, but I guess it's good for mixups.

As of right now, other than reading your opponents, the best AT to capitolize on Dthrows is for the most part the Dash dance pivot. It gives Sonic more flexibility in his ability to change directions, which gives him a better chance of tech chasing ability and Okizeme. stutter stepping is also key, and should be mastered before learning DDP, which is an extended version of said move.


F throw doesn't really have any given setups afterward, you have to read your opponent. If you dont really use it, then it can help in the mindgame department, I may use it, then empty jump in front of them to provoke a responce the punish, or Hyphen Smash once i think it has a good chance of working. But you must "learn to player" first. To reiterate, I once F throw a Lucario, run under and UpB. it worked that time, but that's because he didn't expect that. miiiiiiiiiiiindgaaaaaaaamesssssssss...

if you pummel until realease, know that they can shield before you, meaning you really cant get a free hit outta it. you have to either do it over the edge for a gimp attempt, or mindgame something. "learn to player" again.
F-throw > DAC (if opponent DI's away lol)
 

Napilopez

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I'm going to copy, paste and edit slightly something I was discussing with Puffball earlier about Sonics speed, and some subtleties about it. It isn't anything major, but I think its important enough that people should be aware of it. There is a TL;DR at the botoom:



I mentioned it briefly in the fox matchup thread, but I'll reiterate; Sonic's running speed has an important effect on what the player can actually see on screen and focus on at a time. If sonic is constantly on the move, it forces the camera to have to pan and zoom rapidly, and sometimes it simply can't catchup well enough, and as a result your opponents brain has to spend extra time and energy figuring out his location, and is less able to focus on Sonic's own location, movement, and action.

Your opponent is sent flying running to the right side of the screen, and by the time the camera readjusts to show both characters clearly, Sonic is already in your opponents face. This is why I think such a dynamic and fluid style is needed for Sonic to truely succeed. Even if your not doing anything important, just run around and move around.

For some proof, watch Puffball's vid here, with a grab chase;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jEtEQDFj08&feature=user

Start about 1:04. At 1:05, he does an fair sending MK across the main platform. If you pause at 1:06, you will see that MK is almost off right side of the screen, and Sonic at the center. Are you seeing what I'm getting at? MK is at the edge of the screen, and the camera, because of Sonic's speed, is having trouble adjusting to show both characters onscreen at the same time.

Furthermore, and more importantly, if you are the MK player, and you just got hit, your eyes will be focused on your character, or you will be focus on trying to understand the position of your character. By the time the opponent establishes well where he is on the screen, Puffball is already there grabbing and pummeling.

To get a better understanding, imagine you're watching that small 3 second clip, and this time you are MK. You just got hit, and now you are focusing only on following MKs trajectory. Try it! You can vaguely see Sonic running there, but you can't tell what he's going to do, because your brain and eyes are trying to focus on locating/tracking your character that was just sent flying. This effect is much more noticeable when you are watching on a real, full size TV, rather than this tiny youtube window =P. Basically, you're focusing on MK, and Sonic is more towards your peripheral vision. Most characters give you enough time to adjust and react, but Sonic is just too quick. By the time you regain mental control, you're like WTHECK howd he get there so fast/!? =P

Let say you, as the metaknight player, instead choose to focus on Sonic running at you. Then fine you are aware of Sonic, but now you aren't fully aware of your own MK's location. So now lets say you try to look quickly back and forth between the characters. Ok, so youve got a footing now on where the characters are in relation to eachother, and what Sonic might do. But wait. I'm already being grabbed? Shooot! How come? Because all of this happened in a single second. Your brain has to do extra work to process where your character is, since you were sent flying and you are nearly offscreen, and then it has to interpret where Sonic is, and what he or she is trying to do, and then you have to determine the best course of action to either retaliate, or remain safe. Then you have to input the buttons. You have to do that all in less one second. Good luck.

Of course you can argue that the player might react out of reflex. But what will he or she do most likely? Airdodge, lol. Or perhaps an aerial, which is shield grabbed easily enough.

Simply put, a large percentage of the time, if not most, the opponent being hit will not be able to accuratelydiscern where both characters are on the screen in relation to one another, and as such will often not take the best course of action as a defense. The Sonic on the other hand, because he is the one in control and the one centered on the screen, knows where to go and when to be there, and has the clear advantage.

So I'm trying to say that even if you play a defensive Sonic, you should try to keep yourself in motion most of the time, whether that be danshdancing, running around for no purpose, or whatever. And chase your opponent whenever it is safe to do so, or the reward is worth the risk. Just by plain human ability, your opponent might have trouble making out whats going on in the screen when they are facing a Sonic.

It isn't anything revolutionary, but its a subtle thing I wanted to point out to my fellow Sonic mains. It may sound stupid and like I'm really just trying to dig up reasons for Sonic being awesomme, but I'm not. Its not something I would bring up in a matchup discussion, At most I'd say, Sonic can tech chase well. But its a simple mental advantage the Sonic main has over his opponent, one that is quite unique to Sonic. I just want people to realize this more and exploit it.


TL;DR
If Sonic sends an opponent flying across the screen, Sonic is really the only character than can consistently chase his enemy to regrab or attack before your enemy even discerns where he is, where Sonic is, or both. The game's camera often/usually does not zoom out and pan quickly enough for your opponent to clearly see his character centered on screen before Sonic can get to him. In addition to this, the opponent's eyes need to absord alot of stimulus, and his brain has to process alot of information after being hit, and by the time he or she has processed this, chances are he or she is already being grabbed by Sonic, or it is too late to react. This is why Sonic can be great at applying pressure, because his running speed allows him to reach your opponent before your opponent has time to react appropriately.




BEST TL;DR EVURR:

Sonic is quick. Use his speed.
 

JayBee

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true. it bothers me when a sonic player isnt running around most of the time. now granted i feel that randomly stopping every once in a while will throw them off, but his speed is unchallenged in smash history: not to use his one true advantage is a waste of everyones time. most of the time, even if I am defensive, i am at least running aound outside of thier range, which does well to bait movement. nice post there.

btw, Im going to post some fun FFA matches for you guys. no granted I dont play as serious in these scenarios, but I hope you can catch some nice things and comment on them, or apply them to your game. plus its fun to watch me fail sometimes :)
 

aeghrur

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Yo guys, can you test a sliding/charged F-smash?
The Luigi boards found it and it's basically where you walk and F-smash but charge it with the Z-button. The slide isn't as long as a hyphen smash, but who knows, it could be very useful. I'm not sure if it works with sonic or not considering I don't have a gamecube controller to try this so um, yeah. :p
 
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